Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Magoo on February 04, 2008, 09:25:11 PM
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Here is some good stuff regarding the Oscar and Ki-44 Shoki (Tojo) as well:
Date: 09 Mar 1998
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Date: 09 Mar 1998
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
The Ki-43 was, in some ways, more dangerous to deal with than the A6M, chiefly
because it had a better rate of roll and was armed with two 12.7mm machineguns.
The P-40 driver with a Zero on his tail could usually break the contact with
an aileron roll. This was much less likely with the Ki-43. The Oscar boy
could plant himself behind the P-40 and stay there no matter what the Curtiss
driver did, all the while hammering .50 cal nails that could do some real
damage.
In contrast, the Zero pilot, even if he couldn't be shaken, was doing most of
his firing with rifle caliber mgs which did less damage (although enough of
them in the right places could do the job). The 20mms generally didn't come
into play unless the Zero was in point blank range. A way to stay out of
point blank range was to execute a series of violent aileron turns; this would
allow the P-40 pilot to gradually pull away from the Zero. Once he had
extended sufficiently, he could go into a fast, shallow climb and leave the
Zero behind.
The best bet for the P-40 driver was to have sufficient altitude to dive away
from either the Oscar or Zero, but that wasn't always the situation.
The Ki-43 had better wing loading and power loading than the Zero, had superior
initial acceleration, a better roll rate and a tighter turning circle. It also
had a substantially better rate of climb. That made it an awesome aerobatic
fighter that you absolutely, positively did not dare engage in a dogfight. It
also meant that if you bounced an Oscar and the pilot spotted you, he was
probably going to escape scott free because, should he choose to turn, he could
roll into a tight turn faster than you could follow, whereas if you bounced a
Zero, should he choose to turn, you could follow him, outrolling him and
staying with him for a considerable portion of his turn, often enough to do him
in. (In practice, Oscar and Zero drivers both generally preferred to snap up
into tight loops when bounced, leaving the P-40 driver the option of blowing on
by and clearing the vicinity or sticking around to get a Nip on his six.)
In a typical scenario early in the game, P-40s could be flying top cover for
B-26s flying at 9,000 ft. that were attacking an airstrip, note Oscars taking
off below, make a turn away from the B-26s to position themselves up-sun to
dive on the Oscars once they approached the bombers, turn and come back, taking
less than three minutes for the entire maneuver, and find the B-26s already
under attack from those Oscars they had seen just taking off. Amazing little
buggers.
P-40 escort quickly learned to dive on any Oscars they spotted, no matter how
far below they were, and the bomber boys had to learn not to howl when they saw
their escort peel off for the deck, even though there were no Jap planes
anywhere close by.
The chief advantages of the Zero over the Oscar besides the two 20mm cannon
were a somewhat faster maximum speed and a much, much greater range. Since the
P-40 was faster than the Zero, its superior speed to the Ki-43 wasn't too
important. Range was, because it meant that Zeros could be encountered almost
anywhere at anytime. That was a key reason they were so dangerous.
The Ki-61 was a very serious airplane, no doubt, and was by no means a rare
fighter in New Guinea, being routinely encountered from about mid-1943 on. The
Ki-84 wasn't encountered until the second PI campaign. Definitely a topflight
performer.
Not to be overlooked is the Ki-44, the performance of which was more or less
comparable to the FW 190A series, but with a faster rate of climb. It was met
over the oil refineries in the Dutch East Indies and was used in China and was
quite formidable. The P-40 was simply outclassed by it, and had the Japanese
Army pushed Ki-44 units into New Guinea in 1942, it would definitely been bad
news for the allies. In the nearly failed Buna campaign (the US 32nd Infantry
Division suffered 90 percent casualties, the worst rate of the entire war) in
late summer, for example, the chief allied fighter was the P-40, Es flying
escort for Ks which were used as dive bombers. The P-40s flew three and four
missions a day, desperately fighting to stave off disaster on the ground. No
way the old E could have handled the Ki-44. The Ki-44 could have cut a wide
swath through New Guinea at just the right time--pre-P-38. Apparently, the
JAAF considered holdings in the DEI, Manchuria and CBI more important than
Australian New Guinea, so reserved the Ki-44s to protect them, leaving the
Ki-43 to handle the "North of Australia Front" that the navy had gotten it
entangled in, then choosing to supplement the Ki-43 with the Ki-61, which fell
prey to the P-38.
The Ki-44 was replaced by the Ki-84, theoretically a good move, but it might
have made more sense to keep the Ki-44 in production anyway, perhaps shutting
down Ki-43 production at Tachikawa replacing it with Ki-44 production.
Tachikawa built Ki-43s until the end of the war; Nakajima itself stopped
building Ki-43s in Oct., 1944 and ended Ki-44 production in favor of Ki-84
production in Dec., 1944.
It's worth pointing out that while the Japanese Navy stuck pretty much with the
A6M manuever fighter, the Japanese Army went from the Ki-43 maneuver fighter to
the Ki-44, Ki-61 and Ki-84, all energy fighters.
As the USAAF introduced superior fighers, so did the JAAF. When an American
Army pilot was flying the P-40, he met the Ki-43. He got the P-47 or the P-38
and he met the Ki-44 and Ki-61. He got the P-51 and he met the Ki-84. When
the USN/USMC pilot was flying the F4F, he met the Zero. When he was flying
the F6F he met the Zero. When he was flying the F4U, he met the Zero. It's
another point of superiority of the JAAF over the JNAF that is largely
overlooked.
It's certainly true that the Ki-43 was kept in production long after its
virtues had largely become irrelevant or surpassed(true, too, of the Zero), but
that can be said as well of the Me 109 and, for that matter, the P-40. It's
worth remarking that while neither Messerschmitt nor Curtiss ever came up with
a better single-engine piston fighter than the one they started the war with,
and just monkeyed around with their original design, Nakajima came up with two
entirely new fighter planes, each substantially superior to its predecessor.
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well thought out, well written, but im too impatient to read it all,
I LIKE IT!
:aok :aok :aok
bonus points for mentioning my favorite plane...
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I agree this plane should be in game at some point. I think others may need to come before it though such as a Russian Level bomber.
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Italian Planes?
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Originally posted by Denholm
Italian Planes?
Any Italian aircraft come close to the production numbers or combat time of the Ki-43?
Yeah, didn't think so.
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We have two Italian planes compared to eight Japanese planes. Is there a difference? Yes, the Italian plane set is the smallest in this game.
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Yes, but the Italians were a minor power really. Japan was not.
I'd not object to a C.200 or SM.79-II, but the Japanese planeset is more urgent.
The Soviet set is even more urgent than the Japanese.
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Originally posted by Karnak
...I'd not object to a C.200 or SM.79-II...
Now you're talking.:cool:
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We need some french A/C, D.520, M.S. 406, Bloch M.B. 210, etc
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We need the B-29.
:D Sorry had to.
donkey
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Originally posted by DoNKeY
We need the B-29.
lol
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He-111/Sm.79(bomber/transport), Russian plane (fighter or bomber), Japanese, Italian, French, A-26. IMO. But we can b*tch and moan all we want its up to what HTC thinks is right.
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Originally posted by Redlegs
He-111/Sm.79(bomber/transport), Russian plane (fighter or bomber), Japanese, Italian, French, A-26. IMO. But we can b*tch and moan all we want its up to what HTC thinks is right.
well said
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Very interesting and well-written, Magoo. Thanks putting that up.
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actually i change my mind
[SIZE=50]HE-111[/SIZE]
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FRENCH PLANES?:rofl
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I vote for the Ki-43's..
Spitfire VIII's shot 'em down all the time :D
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Lots more great stuff here:
http://www.yarchive.net/mil/
I got the link from these boards, can't remember who...
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French Military Vic...i mean...
French Military Vic...mybad (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/victories.html)
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Two .50 caliber machine guns as the only armament will make for long, drawn out kills. I would think this would frustrate most players.... just like with the C.202. A welcome challenge though... only after the He-111 is added :)
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Originally posted by Denholm
FRENCH PLANES?:rofl
Yes Denholm, FRENCH planes .
We don't have a single one yet, and I think the Morane-Saulnier MS.406 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morane-Saulnier_MS.406) would be a great addition to the planeset.
Either that, or the arguably more capable Dewoitine D.520 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dewoitine_D.520)
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Originally posted by Pannono
We need some french A/C, D.520, M.S. 406, Bloch M.B. 210, etc
Actually the best french plane wasnt even french...the hawk 75 had the best record of any french plane and 7 of the top 11 french aces flew it. It would also do double duty with the finns in the east were it had a record second only to the brewster...
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Originally posted by EagleEyes
French Military Vic...i mean...
French Military Vic...mybad (http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/victories.html)
LMAO.
Originally posted by humble
Actually the best french plane wasnt even french...the hawk 75 had the best record of any french plane and 7 of the top 11 french aces flew it. It would also do double duty with the finns in the east were it had a record second only to the brewster...
Yes... but the Hawk is smurfy. The D.520 is actually quite good looking (I love French camo...)
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The D.520 also did quite well in French service.
And I am getting quite sick of people who are ignorant of history spouting this bull**** about the French being cowards or whatnot. Go read some books. You are embarrassing us.
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Originally posted by Karnak
And I am getting quite sick of people who are ignorant of history spouting this bull**** about the French being cowards or whatnot. Go read some books. You are embarrassing us.
Despite the fact that what he posted was really funny, that is true. Whether or not the French of the last 100 years are cowards (which they surely are not, but whatever people may want to think), there was a man by the name of... what was it now.. Napoleon who almost conquered Europe. Not to mention without the French the US would still be a colony of Great Britain.
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Motherland,
Even just refering to WWII the French were not cowards. In the three week Battle of France nearly 100,000 Frenchmen died defending her, and they did not die shot in the back. Not a single French unit in WWII broke and ran. A nation's army does not incur those kinds of losses by not fighting.
The French were undone by outdated tactics and a completely fubared political situation in their government. The French themselve fought with valor against a foe that was far better organized and against tactics designed to overcome the outdated tactics the French were saddled with.
Contrary to what certain people in the US want you to think, the French did not surrender enmasse at the first sight of German soldiers.
To understand the French mindset going into WWII you'd have to understand the French experience in WWI. The utter horror that happened on French soil and the staggering losses inflicted on the French people in that war. To come out the winners in what had to be one of the most pyhric victories of all time and to be resloved never to suffer it again....and then it starts again...
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Finally, thank you Karnak!!
At last someone has shown some sense and knowledge around here, and NOT to do with planes!
:aok
Yossarian
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The French gave us the statue of liberty. The Gauls kept Rome at bay in Europe for centuries. The Normans (Das Normandie?) came out of what is now France and conquered Britain. If you have a history that long your gonna win a few and lose a few. Staying around that long is indeed a victory. We have no room to pick on the French today - Bin Laden beat the ruskies by being the catalyst that precipitated the collapse of the Russian economy. We taught him that and now he has stated that he is using the same tactic against us...and we took the bait. One trillion a year, that's what our empire costs us. You don't see the French getting sucked in to this mess, they see it for what it is. They know the cost of blood and treasure that war entails hence they refrain. There has never been a state that has benefitted from an extended war - Sun-Tzu
OK - The Ki43. It apparently was the Japanese version of the P40 in that it hung around for almost the entire war and was built in huge numbers. This AH really can't be a realistic WWII sim without the Ki43. It's also what the AVG fought, not the zero.
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Yes please! With the Yak-1/3 -family, Ki-43 is the most important fighter aircraft missing from AH.
(http://www.posart.com/images/pics/ki43sml.jpg)
Artwork by Mark Postlethwaite
http://www.posart.com/index.cfm?page=ospreycovers (http://www.posart.com/index.cfm?page=ospreycovers)
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Ki-43 (all three gun packs would work) and the G4M :pray
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Yes to the Ki-43. We need another Japanese fighter for early-mid war. It was the PRIMARY Japanese fighter in Burma from 1942-45, and was also used in New Guinea and other fronts. Its an extremely nimble fighter btw, and would be very fun to have.
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"Two .50 caliber machine guns as the only armament will make for long, drawn out kills."
Be even longer and more drawn-out when flying the Ki-43-I version, with its brace of 7.7 mm popguns - but I've said it on these boards before and I'll say it again until HT provides one: NO WW2 combat flight sim should be without the most-produced IJAAF fighter of the war, the Nakajima Ki-43 Hayabusa 'Oscar'.
Banzai !!!!
:D
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By long and drawn out kills, I guess that means the e/a doesn't explode immediately from 6 x 30mm cannons or something. You dont need that kind of firepower to shoot down a fighter; an oil leak, PW or main fuel hit will do it. Many players want nothing short of a mushroom cloud when they pull the trigger and get a wierd sense of what fighter armament had to be to be effective based on exploding them outright so when you land you get the name in lights 2 kills msg.
"Banzai"
Exactly. :aok
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+1 for model mark2A
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I've shot down F4F-4s in AH with nothing but the two 7.7mm guns on the A6M2 as my 20mm cannons had long since run dry. I've shot down a Typhoon with the four .303s on the Spitfire Mk IX as I managed to miss with every single 20mm round a Spit IX carries. I've shot down an La-7 and Bf110G-2 with the four .303s on the Mosquito Mk VI. I've even shot down a B-17 with the two 12.7mm guns on the C.202 on one flight and two F4Us and a P-51D on another flight with those same two 12.7mm Breda guns. I've shot down a Huricane Mk IIc and a C-47A with the 12.7mm guns on the Ki-84 after I'd used the 20mm up on the previous five aircraft I downed that flight. I've downed a B-26B with the twin 13mm guns on the Fw190D-9 as well.
The two 12.7mm guns on the Ki-43 will be quite capable of killing, with a little application of skill.
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My personal opinion is that the French never recovered from Napoleon.
As to the KI-43, YES, with several guns packages.
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+1 KI-43
it would look real pretty burning next to an A6M and Niki :devil
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I'd love to see the Ki-43 come to AH in a few different versions and armaments. In fact with the possible exception of a early/mid war Japanese bomber I'm hard pressed to think of a plane I'd rather see in the next version release.
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I can think of planes I'd rather see....
But not many, and they're nowhere near as useful or important as the Ki43 :lol
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I've shot down F4F-4s in AH with nothing but the two 7.7mm guns on the A6M2 as my 20mm cannons had long since run dry. I've shot down a Typhoon with the four .303s on the Spitfire Mk IX as I managed to miss with every single 20mm round a Spit IX carries. I've shot down an La-7 and Bf110G-2 with the four .303s on the Mosquito Mk VI. I've even shot down a B-17 with the two 12.7mm guns on the C.202 on one flight and two F4Us and a P-51D on another flight with those same two 12.7mm Breda guns. I've shot down a Huricane Mk IIc and a C-47A with the 12.7mm guns on the Ki-84 after I'd used the 20mm up on the previous five aircraft I downed that flight. I've downed a B-26B with the twin 13mm guns on the Fw190D-9 as well.
The two 12.7mm guns on the Ki-43 will be quite capable of killing, with a little application of skill.
:huh damn, how many passes did that take?
but i agree, if i can shoot down a niki and an f6f with the peashooters on the i16, you can easily shoot down someone with the two 12.7mm guns on the ki-43. plus, its even better than the zeke in a dogfight
+1 :aok
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Yep, the Oscar was one of the most produced Japanese planes during the war. It's right up there with the He-111/Do-17, Yak-1/3, Pe-2, Betty, A-26 needs. PLUS the reworking to the new AHII standards: B-26, C-47, P-40B/E, SBD-5,TBM,Hurricanes, Boston/A-20, Mosquito, Lancaster, Ar-234, Bf-110's, C202&205, A6M2/5b, B5N2, D3A1, Ki-61, Ki-67, and the Yak9's. Now, throw in adding more WWI features and aircraft.
Ya know what would be nice? A roadmap of their development plans so it can help us understand where they're going... :aok
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Even a generalized "don't hold us to this" plan would be nice.
"We're thinking of doing 3 fighers and then a bomber, repeating until done, maybe doing the A6Ms now, but holding off on the C2s until we get more info on xyz" etc. That'd be nice, just to see their thought process.
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:huh damn, how many passes did that take?
One, but it was a long one.
Yep, the Oscar was one of the most produced Japanese planes during the war. It's right up there with the He-111/Do-17, Yak-1/3, Pe-2, Betty, A-26 needs. PLUS the reworking to the new AHII standards: B-26, C-47, P-40B/E, SBD-5,TBM,Hurricanes, Boston/A-20, Mosquito, Lancaster, Ar-234, Bf-110's, C202&205, A6M2/5b, B5N2, D3A1, Ki-61, Ki-67, and the Yak9's. Now, throw in adding more WWI features and aircraft.
Ya know what would be nice? A roadmap of their development plans so it can help us understand where they're going... :aok
The A-26 doesn't belong anywhere near that list. The reason to add the A-26 is for MA use, not historical importance. Replace "A-26" with "Wellington" and your list makes a lot more sense. Also needs the Beaufighter on it.
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Over 5,900 Ki-43s - the most numerous of all the IJA planes - flew on every front the IJA flew, right to the end of the war.
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Ki-43 (all three gun packs would work) and the G4M :pray
nah... M-18 (cuz i need to say it) and He-111 and beaufighter coughcough
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+1 KI-43
it would look real pretty burning next to an A6M and Niki :devil
Especially if shot down by a RAF Buffalo Mk.I.
:cool:
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Especially if shot down by a RAF Buffalo Mk.I.
:cool:
We'd need a Buffalo Mk I for that, and have fun getting a Ki-43-I in front of a Buffalo Mk I.
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What about the Judy ? I think that was the replacement for either the Kate or the Val.
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What about the Judy ? I think that was the replacement for either the Kate or the Val.
For the Val, and it was the fastest dive bomber in WWII.
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Thanks.