Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: humble on February 04, 2008, 11:21:35 PM
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More and more often I'm hearing guys talk about killing engine to avoid overshoot etc. To me this is about as bad as dumping your gear in a hog. 99% of the time if it got that hosed your already dead and if you cant avoid the overshoot then you killed any chance you had of continuing the fight. There are an awful lot of "non linear" {3D} ways to kill an overshoot...to me killing your engine is about the worst thing you can do...
Curious what the concensus is?
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Originally posted by humble
More and more often I'm hearing guys talk about killing engine to avoid overshoot etc. To me this is about as bad as dumping your gear in a hog. 99% of the time if it got that hosed your already dead and if you cant avoid the overshoot then you killed any chance you had of continuing the fight. There are an awful lot of "non linear" {3D} ways to kill an overshoot...to me killing your engine is about the worst thing you can do...
Curious what the concensus is?
It USED to be better than just chopping throttle. (AH1 ish days)
Now they are the same diff. more or less.
Just chop your throttle (or be smart and take the verticle and keep your Energy (stored) so you don't have to wait for the engine to start back.
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I find it gets me killed more often than not. If they're coming in real fast I just do a hard turn to either side. If they've got some speed, but enough to follow me in a turn I chop throttle and nose down, while applying full rudder so they can't get a shot at me. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't.
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Originally posted by humble
More and more often I'm hearing guys talk about killing engine to avoid overshoot etc. To me this is about as bad as dumping your gear in a hog. 99% of the time if it got that hosed your already dead and if you cant avoid the overshoot then you killed any chance you had of continuing the fight. There are an awful lot of "non linear" {3D} ways to kill an overshoot...to me killing your engine is about the worst thing you can do...
Curious what the concensus is?
Depends on the situation. If you're diving in and way too fast cutting your engine isn't going to do much to help you. Recognize the prospective overshoot early and pre-empt it in the vertical and transition to lag pursuit or high yo-yo keeping your e. If you fail to react to the prospective overshoot then you've boogered it up already and cutting your engine probably isn't going to make much/any difference and could easily make it worse. Even if it (plus 6G, skid, gear, etc) gets you into position you've just scrubbed off the e you'll need after the kill.
It may be a useful tactic if you're one v one or just a little too fast. If you're one v one then chop and drop into the saddle. If you're just a little too fast, momentarily killing your engine may help and you won't lose too much e relative to what you had. (Just make sure you know where the E button is to start it again) You can also kill your engine in a steep dive to help keep your speed under control but it's not as effective or a good substitute for a good, high-G spiral dive. In all these cases cutting your engine is a band-aide fix to a problem you probably shouldn't have had.
I've found it's a decent last ditch tactic to force an overshoot when you're out of other options. I was in a Hurri against a Zeke who had more e than me so dove to the deck to get him fast then yanked up and left while cutting the engine. He flew by just as pretty as can be (Zekes really stiffen up in a dive) and took 4 x 20mm cannon up the tail pipe a second later. Again, this was a last ditch maneuver or gadget play but worth having in your playbook.
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In planes that have props that can be feathered (P-38 for example), cutting the engine instead of chopping the throttle will make loose less speed as the props get feathered automatically.
Cut the engine only if you don't use a fine throttle controller.
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I have heard more people shut their engine off to cause an overshoot ... never to prevent an overshoot.
As far as I am concerned ... it's one of the gamey-est things (that the game allows) that one can do when in a dogfight.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
As far as I am concerned ... it's one of the gamey-est things (that the game allows) that one can do when in a dogfight.
I agree. Got into a fight against a C.205 that was flown by Snefens. He totally blew the merge and turned off his engine while we were twisting around. As soon as I saw that, I knew this was going to be an easy kill, which it was.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I have heard more people shut their engine off to cause an overshoot ... never to prevent an overshoot.
As far as I am concerned ... it's one of the gamey-est things (that the game allows) that one can do when in a dogfight.
Chopping throttle with someone on my close six has saved my *** more than once and got them killed in the process,how do you get someone off your six?? make sure he's going faster than you.
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My question was chopping throttle vs killing the engine outright. It's also from the attackers perspective not the defenders. To me the entire object of an attack is management of relative E state. Lose your +E state and you lose the ability to control the fight...personally I dont think you get any real benifit in killing the engine (any more then you do from dropping the hogs gear) under most crcumstances beyond what good stick, throtte and rudder work provide.
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I saw a show on the History channel where a WW-ll pony stick talked about saving his own skin once when a German uber was on his tail in a 109. What he did was yank back on the stick violently while applying hard rudder. The last few days Ive done variations of this in the MA but I added dropping power to zero with it.
Its probably worked 7 of 8 times. The trick is to have enough speed in the first place and being able to anticipate when the enemy is focused on the target dot. I use 400 yrds as the maximum distance.
You do blackout for a bit in the maneuver and lose control but who cares? Its just a game, and you can regain control surprisingly quickly. I dont have a high level of skill yet in fighters so its a relief to actually have a few tricks that can work.
Many of these airplanes glide so well I dont think actually killing the power helps much and it takes away a second or two that you might end up needing.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I have heard more people shut their engine off to cause an overshoot ... never to prevent an overshoot.
As far as I am concerned ... it's one of the gamey-est things (that the game allows) that one can do when in a dogfight.
Agreed , HT should model a shut down and start up that
takes longer .
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i have never even thought dropping gear is a good method, let alone turning off engine.
imo, throttle work should be considered early enough so that these desperate tactics dont even come into your thoughts.
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When ya say "cutting" do you mean 'chopping throttle' or turning off engine? In jug at least, turning off engine does little to slow plane down, as is obvious on dead stick landing
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I use 400 yrds as the maximum distance.
You let enemy aircraft get within 400 of your tail, passively? :huh
Don't think I've ever seen a stopped prop on anything that didn't have it's radiator blown, I have run into those UFO Gear down F4Us though.
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I notice that if I land deadstick the plane actually slows down slower than with my prop at idle. I would say killing your engine is one of the worst things to do. The only time I kill my engine is to save gas on landing or to listen for Gvs.
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it feels like it slows you a bit quicker by killing engine, but surely the payoff is too big - no throttle control when u need it most...
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
i have never even thought dropping gear is a good method, let alone turning off engine.
imo, throttle work should be considered early enough so that these desperate tactics dont even come into your thoughts.
Yep, at this point you have probably already made the error that leads to your demise. :noid
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Originally posted by Coronado
Chopping throttle with someone on my close six has saved my *** more than once and got them killed in the process,how do you get someone off your six?? make sure he's going faster than you.
I specifically said ... shut their engine off ... that is not the same as chopping throttle.
I chop throttle all the time when trying to create an overshoot ... but I NEVER shut my engine off.
I have seen this engine on/off gameyness used over the years and it appears that it works nicely for some aircraft, slowing them down very fast, and others it doesn't have the slowing effect that they would hope for.
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hows this for a thought..... when "backing up" on a CV do you do it with the engine off, of with the throttle bummed up just a tad off of completely chopped?
Using that logic I would think a "chopped throttle" would slow you quicker than a stopping blade.
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Fugitive, on a CV i believe you need to bump throttle, as per game modeling, because at idle the landing cables will hold you. If ur just above idle, the cables are ineffective now and u roll back under the 50kts headwind and the CV motion.
Thats what I think anyway.:)
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Originally posted by Getback
Yep, at this point you have probably already made the error that leads to your demise. :noid
definitely, but then desperate situation do occour without your choice involved. at these times the gear trick can be a god send and pilots like sirloin have it mastered in the f4us. but on the whole using gear or engine off to slow down is certainly less effective and reliable than calculating relative closure speeds in time and managing your energy correctly for the move you intend.