Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: sluggish on February 05, 2008, 02:56:39 PM
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We bought five acres and split it, sold the back half and put an easement down one side for access to the back lot. My driveway is off the main road. I don’t use the easement. It’s just so the neighbors can get to their house. They insist that since half the easement runs through my lot, I should pay for half of the snowplowing – even though I don’t use it. As far as I’m concerned, even if my driveway WAS off the easement, I would only be responsible for plowing to my driveway, not all the way to the property line…
So now I have to hire a lawyer to write down some mumbo-jumbo legalese and have a judge bang a gavel just because these people (first-time home-owners/life-time renters) don’t understand the concept of personal responsibility.
I know now that I should have had a maintenance agreement drawn up at the time of sale, but who would have figured that anyone would think that their neighbor is responsible for their snow removal?
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Is the easement 50% on your land and 50% on the part you sold?
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Yeah seems like it's your land, you can plow it if you want or not, how about this, tell the since it's half on your land you want a toll fee for them using it.
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And you have to sue them for what? I can't imagine how you have been damaged from them asking you to pay for half of plowing costs.
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Originally posted by BigGun
And you have to sue them for what? I can't imagine how you have been damaged from them asking you to pay for half of plowing costs.
I'm guessing they're suing him for the money, and now he has to hire a lawyer to defend him.
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Originally posted by BigGun
And you have to sue them for what? I can't imagine how you have been damaged from them asking you to pay for half of plowing costs.
Yeah it sounds ridiculous because it is. The guy these people have hired to plow charges $50 a pop. So far this year they say I owe them $125. Let me repeat that I don't even use this easement. It is a legal ingress -egress utility easement. Basically what it comes down to is that we need an official third party to tell us exactly where each of our responsibilities lye because we are totally on different pages.
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Did they just ask you for the $125 or sue you? Surely isn't lawyer material at that price. Still not sure why you whould sue them.
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http://www.judgejudy.com
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You don't want bad blood between you and people who live right next door.
And remember, only people who sue are the ones who can afford to be sued*.
Figure another way out of it.
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there are legal rules governing easements.
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should have split the lot side to side.
usually easment maintenance responsibilities are a part of the title, and made clear at the time of sale.
think you have a problem now, wait until potholes need to be filled or it needs to be paved.
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Tell them to only start plowing half of it.
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Originally posted by BigGun
Did they just ask you for the $125 or sue you? Surely isn't lawyer material at that price. Still not sure why you whould sue them.
$125 today. The point is every time they plow the road they expect me to pay half. This can add up to a lot of money over time. I want a legal precedence to be set so that no one is confused about who has to pay who how much.
Right now they think I should pay half of a plow bill on an ingress/egress easement that I don't even use. I think they should pay to plow their own road.
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Mac, are you sure you know what a easement is?
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sluggish,
I'm no expert, but I looked for similar cases. I did't like what I found; they go against intuition. Read this. (http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26959)
"The general rule is that you have to do all the maintenance and that he can do nothing but go in and out on the road." - seniorjudge
But this one does sound much better:
Read me too. (http://www.expertlaw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29037)
"We have a Right Of Way at the bottom of our property to allow one neighbor end of the road access to her home. We recently cut all trees on a small slope to allow a view. This slope is on our property and runs down to the ROW road, which is on our property and another neighbor’s. The neighbor who uses the road is very upset that her “shady lane” has been “desecrated.” She now has made many demands and threatened to put a lien on our home, which we now have on the market. She has demanded, among other things, that we take full erosion control measures to protect her road. We know that 28 years ago cutting occurred on this slope and that erosion was not an issue. We have plans to seed and hay the slope; we plan on redigging the road-edge ditch that was covered with debris. She has accused us of displacing gravel on the road, which did not occur-both road property owners agree on that. What is our obligation to her and her right of way maintenance?" - embiju
"You can do anything on your property that does not "burden" the easement. As long as you do not interfere with her access you are OK. That does not mean she can't hire a lawyer and sue you, this is America. Check the original easement to see if maintenance is mentioned." - lwpat
"Thanks Iwpat! The deed does not specify anything about maintenance. A road assoc. agreement states that homeowners are responsible for road maint. on portions edging their property, but not beyond any portion of the road used by the homeowner. The only people using this portion of road are the complaining neighbors - road ends at their property. We have no intention of allowing their access to be hampered or blocked in any way. I think we're OK as long as they don't get crazy and suit happy on us. I appreciate your response." - embiju
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Originally posted by AWMac
If you were smart you'd but a couple 5 gallon cans of gas, wet down the easement then call yer nieghbor out to discuss the situation...pull out a cig and ask him for a light. When the easement goes up in flames yell "Ohhh MY GAWD what have you done?"
Then call the Fire Dept and Police... file a report on him.
:D
Distruction of a perfectly good easement for insurance purposes will cause him to move for sure.
easements be dirt - dirt no burn
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Originally posted by VERTEX
should have split the lot side to side.
usually easment maintenance responsibilities are a part of the title, and made clear at the time of sale.
think you have a problem now, wait until potholes need to be filled or it needs to be paved.
The lot was narrow and deep; impossible to split side-to-side.
The only maintence discussed in the titles is summer maint (gravel and such). I don't use it, so I don't pay. I reserve the right to use it, and if I do use it I am responsible for maint to the point of use, but no mention of snow removal...
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Never mind...
Have fun with your half of the easement.
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Originally posted by AWMac
If you were smart you'd but a couple 5 gallon cans of gas, wet down the easement then call yer nieghbor out to discuss the situation...pull out a cig and ask him for a light. When the easement goes up in flames yell "Ohhh MY GAWD what have you done?"
Then call the Fire Dept and Police... file a report on him.
:rofl :rofl
LOL
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Eskimo,
Thanks for the links. That site looks great. I just want to find out where I stand. If I have to pay, I'll have to pay. I won't like it but I won't have much choice.
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buy your own plow, charge the other person to plow the road.
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Originally posted by john9001
buy your own plow, charge the other person to plow the road.
There's a good solution... You plow it yourself, bill them for their half.
My regards,
Widewing
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Two solutions.
sell the easment and land lock the bastage.
(Probably not legal but sounds like fun LOL)
Orrr. plow ONLY your half of the easment only and make sure all the debis is plowed onto his half.
Then wait for him to say "uncle"
If it were me thats what I would do.
But I can be a spiteful SOB once you've pissed me off or put a bug up my butt.
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Offer to sell them that piece of land and let them worry about it.
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Someone will decide for you...there is no getting out of this without compensating them. They have no incentive.
Is there some other thing you can trade? Can you squeeze them similarly on some basis? Ride your dirt bike up and down the easement without a muffler? :)
Had it been deeded correctly, you wouldn't be paying squat for the upkeep of the easement. That, I can assure you. Now, precedent will dictate.
Good luck Bro........
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Amusing true story.
I live on a corner lot
I have a side walk only on one side of my property
One year we had a small sort. 2 inches or so.
typically around here when its that little nobody bothers to shovel cause its usually gone in a couple of days.
On this occasion the township got a bug up its but and sent warning notices around to everyone that didnt shovel this 2 inches that all snow was to be shoveled whenever ity snowed to where the sidewalk meets the street on the corners.
and that in the future anyone that didnt shovel the wal would be issued a summons
Well you know when they pow the roads after a decent sized snowfall they often like to pile up the snow Which is now more like a solid block of ice about 6-7 feet high in one huge mound over a sewer drain?
Well there is one about 2 feet from where my sidewalk meets the road so when they pile it up there is a big huge mound of snow where my sidealk meets the street at the corner.
Next snowstorm was considerably more
So I did exactly what they said so as you walked down the sidewalk you suddenly met this dead end where the snow was piled up.
cop walks the sidewalk and I see him come to the end and suddenly stop at the wall of ice.
Me- " Hey how ya doing?"
him - "this sidewalk isnt clear"
Me-"yes it is. its done exactly the way the warning I received said to do."where the sidewalk meets the street (pointing down) See there is the curb"
Him - "You supposed to have egress to the street"
Me (clanging a shovel on the pile of ice) Well tel ya what. Either get the plows to stop piling it here or get the township to issue me a blastng permit to get through this and I'll be more then happy too (clanging the shovel against the ice again for emphasis)
Him "I see what you mean. i'll mention it. but if it happens again just clear a path to the road so people can walk."
Me (chuckling as the wheels of devience were turning in my head already)
Ok no prob.
Next decent sized storm.
(Did I mention my property has a 50 foot setback?)
I did exactly as he said. Took my handy dandy snowblower and cleared a path to the street. by way of the scenic route.
Right at the ice wal I turned the path hard right went in about 4 feet then went hard right again effectively forming a U turn. then plowed up about 40 feet and then made a hard left, in 4 feet then another hard left. And headed back toward the street again stopping about 5 feet short, then made another hard right and went back and forth across my entire front lawn in a zigzag pattern till it finally ended at the end of my driveway.
Next day Im watching the cop from my window as hes comming down the sidewalk looking curiously at this weird pattern in my yard. He stops at the ice wall. looks at the wall. then the path, then the wall again and I see him laughing as he's shaking his head. Evidently he said screw dat cause he walked thoughteh unplowed snow betweet the walkway and the road and kept going.
Havent seen him again since and they usually pile up the snow a little more to the side.
When they dont I just do the zigzag routine to remind em.
Ok ok sometimes I do it anyway just for fun.
Since the elementary scool is about a block and a half from my house the kids seem to love it.
Parents seem equally amused
:D
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:lol Widewing beat me to it.
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Having a bit of experience in easements and right-of-ways I can tell you in Texas the person using the easement is responsable for maintenence and damages to the property. We don't have a lot of slowplowing around here tho.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Amusing true story.
I live on a corner lot
I have a side walk only on one side of my property
One year we had a small sort. 2 inches or so.
typically around here when its that little nobody bothers to shovel cause its usually gone in a couple of days.
On this occasion the township got a bug up its but and sent warning notices around to everyone that didnt shovel this 2 inches that all snow was to be shoveled whenever ity snowed to where the sidewalk meets the street on the corners.
and that in the future anyone that didnt shovel the wal would be issued a summons
Well you know when they pow the roads after a decent sized snowfall they often like to pile up the snow Which is now more like a solid block of ice about 6-7 feet high in one huge mound over a sewer drain?
Well there is one about 2 feet from where my sidewalk meets the road so when they pile it up there is a big huge mound of snow where my sidealk meets the street at the corner.
Next snowstorm was considerably more
So I did exactly what they said so as you walked down the sidewalk you suddenly met this dead end where the snow was piled up.
cop walks the sidewalk and I see him come to the end and suddenly stop at the wall of ice.
Me- " Hey how ya doing?"
him - "this sidewalk isnt clear"
Me-"yes it is. its done exactly the way the warning I received said to do."where the sidewalk meets the street (pointing down) See there is the curb"
Him - "You supposed to have egress to the street"
Me (clanging a shovel on the pile of ice) Well tel ya what. Either get the plows to stop piling it here or get the township to issue me a blastng permit to get through this and I'll be more then happy too (clanging the shovel against the ice again for emphasis)
Him "I see what you mean. i'll mention it. but if it happens again just clear a path to the road so people can walk."
Me (chuckling as the wheels of devience were turning in my head already)
Ok no prob.
Next decent sized storm.
(Did I mention my property has a 50 foot setback?)
I did exactly as he said. Took my handy dandy snowblower and cleared a path to the street. by way of the scenic route.
Right at the ice wal I turned the path hard right went in about 4 feet then went hard right again effectively forming a U turn. then plowed up about 40 feet and then made a hard left, in 4 feet then another hard left. And headed back toward the street again stopping about 5 feet short, then made another hard right and went back and forth across my entire front lawn in a zigzag pattern till it finally ended at the end of my driveway.
Next day Im watching the cop from my window as hes comming down the sidewalk looking curiously at this weird pattern in my yard. He stops at the ice wall. looks at the wall. then the path, then the wall again and I see him laughing as he's shaking his head. Evidently he said screw dat cause he walked thoughteh unplowed snow betweet the walkway and the road and kept going.
Havent seen him again since and they usually pile up the snow a little more to the side.
When they dont I just do the zigzag routine to remind em.
Ok ok sometimes I do it anyway just for fun.
Since the elementary scool is about a block and a half from my house the kids seem to love it.
Parents seem equally amused
:D
Pure dag-nasty evil! :aok:rofl
Regards,
Sun
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I havnt seen this mentioned but is the easement something you just made for them recently and if so, do you live in an area where easements need to be recorded and made a legal easement with the county that you live in? If its not a legal easement then it shouldnt be there on your property, and they are not entitled to use your property as access to theirs, unless you agreed to something during the sale.
Where I live its called being land locked if you dont have a legal easement to your property through someone elses land. I have property that I would be land locked from if it were not for a recorded and legal easement going through my neighbors property. There is nothing he can do or say about it.
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i would roto-till it up and plant some grass. then tell them to get their own driveway.
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Thank GAWD that Oklahoma has Texas as an easement between us and Mexico.
Gettin kinda thin on ammo here nowadays.
Between the Texicans and the Mexsans crossing... no wonder the named it the "Red River".
:D
Mac
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You might want to check that paperwork Mac. You guys are a DMZ against Yankees.
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I have easement property too. Hate it! Don't have an answer for you. However, (I'm not an attorney) I think you have to show damages.
My situation is we have opposing garages and share the drive to the garages. My neighbors have crammed a junk trailor, 2 full size vans, and a compact or midsize car in a spot that was only intended for one vehicle. At times I could not even get my lawnmower out of the garage. Our easement agreement states that we are entitled to back out of our garage to the front of their garage and then pull out. I, unfortunately, will have to get an attorney and I can prove damages. I have taken pictures. I've asked them and have written to them about it and all I get is lip service.
Lived there for 30 years and never had any trouble and then the woman living their married this sorry clown.
If I parked the way they parked they could not get out.
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Originally posted by rpm
You might want to check that paperwork Mac. You guys are a DMZ against Yankees.
y'all seem to forget that if it werent for the "yankee's"
You all would be nothing more then a bunch of slave holding crackers in a third world country
:p
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Originally posted by M36
I havnt seen this mentioned but is the easement something you just made for them recently and if so, do you live in an area where easements need to be recorded and made a legal easement with the county that you live in? If its not a legal easement then it shouldnt be there on your property, and they are not entitled to use your property as access to theirs, unless you agreed to something during the sale.
Where I live its called being land locked if you dont have a legal easement to your property through someone elses land. I have property that I would be land locked from if it were not for a recorded and legal easement going through my neighbors property. There is nothing he can do or say about it.
Yes, this is a recorded, legal ingress/egress easement. He would be landlocked without it.
On second thought, I've decided that not only am I not responsible since I'm not using it, but I would only be responsible for half of the cost of the part I was using if I were (since he has to use it).
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Originally posted by M36
I haven't seen this mentioned but is the easement something you just made for them recently and if so, do you live in an area where easements need to be recorded and made a legal easement with the county that you live in? If its not a legal easement then it shouldn't be there on your property, and they are not entitled to use your property as access to theirs, unless you agreed to something during the sale.
Where I live its called being land locked if you dint have a legal easement to your property through someone Else's land. I have property that I would be land locked from if it were not for a recorded and legal easement going through my neighbors property. There is nothing he can do or say about it.
Yes, this is a recorded, legal ingress/egress easement. He would be landlocked without it.
On second thought, I've decided that not only am I not responsible since I'm not using it, but I would only be responsible for half of the cost of the part I was using if I were (since he has to use it).
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I would just ignore him. Edison has an easement at the back of my property and they have never tried to get me to pay any of the tree trimming costs.
I rather doubt that your easement addresses maintenance costs.
You might send him a letter that states that you have decided to do the whole drive in brick paver's and that you would appreciate a check from him in the amount of $50,000.00 for his half.
shamus
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Originally posted by Shamus
I would just ignore him. Edison has an easement at the back of my property and they have never tried to get me to pay any of the tree trimming costs.
I rather doubt that your easement addresses maintenance costs.
You might send him a letter that states that you have decided to do the whole drive in brick paver's and that you would appreciate a check from him in the amount of $50,000.00 for his half.
shamus
:lol
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Originally posted by Shamus
I would just ignore him. Edison has an easement at the back of my property and they have never tried to get me to pay any of the tree trimming costs.
I rather doubt that your easement addresses maintenance costs.
You might send him a letter that states that you have decided to do the whole drive in brick paver's and that you would appreciate a check from him in the amount of $50,000.00 for his half.
shamus
A utility easement is quite different from an ingress/egress landowner easement.
I like the other part of your post though:lol :lol
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I would still ignore him, let him make the first legal move if he wishes, lawyers are expensive.
I see you are in Michigan, one caveat tho, if he is a big three UAW member he has the pre paid legal plan, it does not cover much but I know that it has a pretty high limit for real estate matters.
shamus
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What is the exact language of the grant/easement ?
Without that, any responses are merely a guess.
From what I have read, if there is no specific language stating that maintenance of the easement will be split 50/50, then there is no "default" assumption that you have to share in half the cost of maintaining the easement ... in this case, snow removal.
If you are not using the same easement for your own access(driveway), then he would truly be hard pressed to present to any judge a reason why you should share in half the cost of snow removal, when the removal is only for his benefit.
There should also be specific language as to what they can do to the easement construction-wise.
Personally I think the guy has a huge set of balls to even ask you to share in the cost of snow removal.
As Shamus said, I would simply ignore him, and if he broached the subject in person, with me, I would tell him that he has a huge set of balls and then tell him to "piss off".
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Originally posted by sluggish
A utility easement is quite different from an ingress/egress landowner easement.
and you are right as a utility easement gives the power company telephone etc the right to enter the easement.
the landlocked owner, who uses the utility easement as an ingress/egress, is in fact trespassing on your property. he could be considered one of those hostile land squatter types.
read this quick fact from a city in Arizona. http://ci.show-low.az.us/departments/public_works/Easement_Quick_Facts.htm
and read this http://www.lectlaw.com/files/lat06.htm
pay attention to the part about written permission. may want to give one of those to the landlocked one then revoke it on him for pure spite.
yes I can be evil.
might be a good idea to get a lawyer quick, to work out something to solve this problem. better do it before the landlocked one decides to take legal action.
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Here is some case law ...
In syllabus point 2 of Carson v. Jackson Land and Mining Company, 90 W.Va. 781, 111 S.E. 846 (1922), the Court rather plainly indicated that in an easement situation the duty to maintain an easement is ordinarily upon those entitled to use the easement and not upon the landowner.
The Court said: The duty to maintain an easement in such condition that it may be enjoyed is upon those entitled to its use, in the absence of some contractual or prescriptive obligation upon the owner of the servient estate to so maintain it.
So, if you do not use the easement for your own benefit, and there is no specific language in your easement/grant saying that you are responsible for the maintenance of the easement ...
THEN HE CAN KISS YOUR ARSE.
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Originally posted by sluggish
Yes, this is a recorded, legal ingress/egress easement. He would be landlocked without it.
On second thought, I've decided that not only am I not responsible since I'm not using it, but I would only be responsible for half of the cost of the part I was using if I were (since he has to use it).
Exactly ...
If the easement was 100 feet and you used 10 feet of the easement for your own use, then you would indeed be responsible for 10% of the maintenance.
Also, if it is truly an ingress/egress easement, then that is all he can use if for. It's use is limited only to getting into and out of his property.
He cannot build on it, park extra cars on it, put a fence on it boarding the easement, pave it, etc ... he can only make reasonable changes (fill in pot holes - cut down trees in the easement) that makes the ingress/egress viable.
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Wouldn't he also have to agree to the snowplow contracter used as well, ie ask for a written quote and agree to it, rather than just having them do it then expect him to foot half the bill?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Wouldn't he also have to agree to the snowplow contracter used as well, ie ask for a written quote and agree to it, rather than just having them do it then expect him to foot half the bill?
Yes ... but only if he were truly responsible for "some" of the maintenance.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Here is some case law ...
In syllabus point 2 of Carson v. Jackson Land and Mining Company, 90 W.Va. 781, 111 S.E. 846 (1922), the Court rather plainly indicated that in an easement situation the duty to maintain an easement is ordinarily upon those entitled to use the easement and not upon the landowner.
The Court said: The duty to maintain an easement in such condition that it may be enjoyed is upon those entitled to its use, in the absence of some contractual or prescriptive obligation upon the owner of the servient estate to so maintain it.
So, if you do not use the easement for your own benefit, and there is no specific language in your easement/grant saying that you are responsible for the maintenance of the easement ...
THEN HE CAN KISS YOUR ARSE.
Nice bit of work Slapshot.
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Sluggish if it is not recorded as "your" easement also or a shared easement then it is all his. Especially if it is recorded as "his" easement into his property. I am responsible for my easement going through the neighbors property, not him.