Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: sullie363 on February 05, 2008, 05:11:33 PM
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I heard a little while ago that the B17 had more air to air kills than any other allied aircraft during the war. Well, is that true? I suppose it is possible since it served through the entire time the U.S. was involved and certainly had enough to shoot at. I tried searching around on my own with no luck.
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Hmm that's interesting and I could certainly see how it's possible, but you also have to remember that multiple gunners would score the same kill as their own, so numbers could get mixed up that way.
Either way though, would be interesting to find out more about this. Good job:aok
donkey
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Wouldn't really surprise me if it did as far as claims go. Combine a relatively target rich environment, long service life, and the fact that if a 109 bounced a formation of b17's it could easily have 50+ gunners all shooting at him as he makes his attack. 50+ gunners who would try and claim the kill if he started smoking or bailed out. I don't know if it's true or not but it sounds plausible, as long as you look at claims and don't cross-check against admitted german loses from the same period of time.
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i would think it would be. My grandfather flew a B17 in the war and he has a lot of stories about it.
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I too would agree, but it would be VERY hard to prove. As was said, multiple gunners may report the same kill, so 1 Bf-109 shot down turns into 6.
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They might have, but one thing to keep in mind is that gunners on B-17's didn't have gun cameras, and there were lots of times when one kill would result in several kill claims (as there were often several gunners shooting at the same target).
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Originally posted by sullie363
I heard a little while ago that the B17 had more air to air kills than any other allied aircraft during the war. Well, is that true? I suppose it is possible since it served through the entire time the U.S. was involved and certainly had enough to shoot at. I tried searching around on my own with no luck.
No, it isn't true.
Gunner claims were wildlly inflated. Eighth AF probably deliberately encouraged this, to buck up their morale. But post-war research has proven, fairly conclusively, that the bomber claims were not far from the same sort of thing Tokyo Rose was announcing for the Japanese.
Because of the gun cameras, it turned out that Allied fighter claims were pretty much on the mark.
- oldman (don't ask me about those bizarre German claims)
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The B-17 gunners did claim more enemy aircraft shot down than any other aircraft. I've seen this in print. But research has shown that for every 100 aircraft claimed to have been shot down, in reality the Luftwaffe only lost about 10.
On average, the Luftwaffe lost one fighter for every 3 B-17s shot down. About 4000 B-17s were destroyed during the war (including operational accidents I believe).
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Originally posted by VansCrew1
i would think it would be. My grandfather flew a B17 in the war and he has a lot of stories about it.
For whatever this is worth you might consider having him put those stories down on paper. He isn't going to live forever.
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Or just put on a tape recorder, make some questions and let the stories flow...
-C+
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Originally posted by Serenity
I too would agree, but it would be VERY hard to prove. As was said, multiple gunners may report the same kill, so 1 Bf-109 shot down turns into 6.
Yeah and someone doing research comes to conclusion that LW had actually 3 billion planes that weren't able to counter the attacks. Just because 1 plane always multiplies to 6 :lol
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
For whatever this is worth you might consider having him put those stories down on paper. He isn't going to live forever.
Ive got them on tape. I'm thinking ahead.
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Originally posted by VansCrew1
Ive got them on tape. I'm thinking ahead.
Boy this is a daring question, Vans is there anyway you could write the stories down. I've inquire to my own grandfather about his time in WWII (He had something to do with the Shermans but he won't say much other than it was horifiing to see peices of you boys scattered in the Shermans). Mine will barely talk about it, and I'd like to hear or read others accounts.
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On one bomber raid, gunners claimed more fighters shot down than the Luftwaffe had on the Western front.
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IIRC there was a discussion on claims vs losses a while back. No luck finding it yet, but it's interesting to read up on the topic in general.
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There was an obituary in yesterday's paper in this small town I live in. He was a B-17 tail gunner in WWII. He was shot down on his 32nd mission(thought they only flew 25), captured, POW for awhile, then escaped off a POW train headed from France to Germany. He lived with the French Underground for months before finally getting across the channel back to England. He had lots of combat awards.
Wow. Wish I'd known about him sooner. I'd have loved to have met & talked with him. I've never had the opportunity/privilage to hear first hand from someone who actually went through it(the air war of WWII). In a town of 9,000 I wish I'd heard of him sooner. Usually, everyone knows everything about everybody:lol . Hearing it first hand and seeing the look in their eyes as they recall has GOT to be so much more incredible than watching some documentary.
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Dolittle bumped up the 25 mission Tour of Duty during the war, because experienced crews were needed to help train and protect the rookie crews. Some bomber crews ended up flying 35+ missions.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Dolittle bumped up the 25 mission Tour of Duty during the war, because experienced crews were needed to help train and protect the rookie crews. Some bomber crews ended up flying 35+ missions.
8th AF was 25, 30 and finally 35 missions needed to complete your tour. 15th AF tour was 50 missions.
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This is the story of my girl friend's uncle that served on B-24s and tell the story of his internment by the Swiss and his escape. Unfortunately, he passed away a few months ago before I could ask him about some of his other stories.
Charles Cassidy of the 303rd Bomb Group (http://www.west.net/~macpuzl/internee.html)
ack-ack
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I think the history channel "dogfights" told of a single B17 on a recon mission in the Pacific that shot down like 10 planes in one mission....maybe somebody else has the details.
999000
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Originally posted by 999000
I think the history channel "dogfights" told of a single B17 on a recon mission in the Pacific that shot down like 10 planes in one mission....maybe somebody else has the details.
999000
Don't recall the name of the B-17 but I believe it was the most heavily armed B-17 in the Pacific, with something like 19 guns mounted on it.
ack-ack
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I think you guys are referring to the "All American" 17 kills 1 sortie.
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Heck I never got 17 kills in a B17 cheating with the aimbot!!!
999000
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Don't recall the name of the B-17 but I believe it was the most heavily armed B-17 in the Pacific, with something like 19 guns mounted on it.
ack-ack
Old 666, IIRC
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So if the crew claimed 19 planes shot down, in reality they only destroyed two.
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Originally posted by 999000
I think the history channel "dogfights" told of a single B17 on a recon mission in the Pacific that shot down like 10 planes in one mission....maybe somebody else has the details.
999000
Yeah even the pilot got a kill using a .50 mounted directly infront of him.
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But who confirmed the kills? Was there ever any wreckage found?
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VansCrew, and the rest of you for that matter, go here http://www.loc.gov/vets/ (http://www.loc.gov/vets/) and use the resources available to share those stories with the Library of Congress.