Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Gorf on February 06, 2008, 08:06:08 PM
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Well, I know I am slow on the go.Been out of the country for 4 months and came back and was >>GASPING<<
Hazzah! about time the P-39!
THANK YOU HTC!!
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o Yea i know. Kind of sad though. People are saying that the plane sucks and that every other plane could out do it. Well what the cool thing is though, the #2 ace in ww2 was a p-39 pilot only to be beaten by a La dweeb. :D
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Germans had all the top aces buddy.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Germans had all the top aces buddy.
isn't that 'cause they didn't rotate their pilots or something? They HAD to be aces, it was that or be dead... :D
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Not #2 of the war. It was the #2 Russian ace Alexandre Pokryshkin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Ivanovich_Pokryshkin
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Originally posted by angelsandair
o Yea i know. Kind of sad though. People are saying that the plane sucks and that every other plane could out do it. Well what the cool thing is though, the #2 ace in ww2 was a p-39 pilot only to be beaten by a La dweeb. :D
Pokryshkin was the number 2 Allied ace... never came close to German scores though.
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JG11 high five!
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Originally posted by Blooz
JG11 high five!
YEAH! "Smack"
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Originally posted by angelsandair
o Yea i know. Kind of sad though. People are saying that the plane sucks and that every other plane could out do it. Well what the cool thing is though, the #2 ace in ww2 was a p-39 pilot only to be beaten by a La dweeb. :D
It wasnt the plane,it was pilot
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I wounder when it will be out, can't wait any longer.
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Thats because germans counted everything shot down.
cargo planes recon planes air ballon's bird's UFo's .ect.
No wounder most had 250+ kills.
But it's not like each and everyone was done with dog fighting, that simply will never* be truth.
"I bombed three parked planes in my 190 today, lets put it down as five dog fight kills, that should scare the russians a little more when they learn half our squad are *aces* operating in there area."
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Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Thats because germans counted everything shot down.
cargo planes recon planes air ballon's bird's UFo's .ect.
No wounder most had 250+ kills.
But it's not like each and everyone was done with dog fighting, that simply will never* be truth.
"I bombed three parked planes in my 190 today, lets put it down as five dog fight kills, that should scare the russians a little more when they learn half our squad are *aces* operating in there area."
Where did that come from? Ive never read anything that would even suggest that German Kill-scores were inflated.
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On the contrary. I've read in a few places that German kill scores were remarkably accurate; even after comparing them after the war to recorded allied losses.
German pilots had many, many more years on the line, and quite a few opportunities to pad scores against outdated equipment or poorly trained pilots (or both)...and unescorted bombers... Given their experience, though, the Germans undoubtedly had the best fighter pilots by virtue of sheer number of hours flown in combat. Had they used that experience to train the new guys things might have been a bit different in '44 and '45.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Germans had all the top aces buddy.
It's not really very easy to look and say who had the "top aces" since each scenario is different. Some of the early french aces did very well vs the germans. The squadrons equipped with the hawk75 in particular.
If we stick with just the luftwaffe itself the names that standout arent just the ones you'd expect.
Gunther Scheel was probably the most gifted pilot on any side during WW2. No one came close to his level of "production". The fact that he wasnt an early ware pilot and got thrown into the mix relatively late in the war and had 70 kills in just 71 sorties before colliding with a russian plane in mid 43.
Adolph Gluntz had 71 kills in over 500 sorties (almost all in the west) and well over 200 combats was never shot down, wounded or had his plane seriously shot up....remarkable SA...
Walter Loos also stands out...
He didnt even complete flight training till 1/44 and accumulated 38 confirmed victories while being shot down 9 times (probably one of the best Ta-152 aces of the war)...
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Originally posted by Puck
On the contrary. I've read in a few places that German kill scores were remarkably accurate; even after comparing them after the war to recorded allied losses.
...must...not....bite....
- oldman (start with Caldwell's "JG26")
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Remember, the last thread this in which this was discussed in depth, degraded into a handful of fanatics calling each other zionist terrorists and nazis.
-hub (hey oldman, wanna strafe some gliders?)
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Originally posted by Oldman731
...must...not....bite....
- oldman (start with Caldwell's "JG26")
They surely can't be as inflated as the scores claimed by Allied bomber gunners?
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By Top Aces I meant total number of kills.
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Comparing victory totals of men (and women http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/raskov/raskov.htm) in different air forces is not useful, too many variables - from authentication methods to the MO for handling ace pilots , from number of oppurtunities/sorties/enemies, etc. etc.
Personally I find the stories of the individual sorties/combats to be more interesting than just a spreadsheet of numbers.
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Originally posted by Motherland
They surely can't be as inflated as the scores claimed by Allied bomber gunners?
Nice strawman.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
-hub (hey oldman, wanna strafe some gliders?)
Heh.
Sure thing, a kill's a kill, right?
- oldman
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Originally posted by angelsandair
o Yea i know. Kind of sad though. People are saying that the plane sucks and that every other plane could out do it. Well what the cool thing is though, the #2 ace in ww2 was a p-39 pilot only to be beaten by a La dweeb. :D
Meant the Allied side.....
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Originally posted by KgB
It wasnt the plane,it was pilot
Well that pilot was doing things the right way with the plane. o and the #1 pilot/la dweeb had 67 kills i think (its like bomber/fighter) not cargo planes i think. O and supposedly he ran into a B-17 Fortress formation under attack by the luftwaffe and was attacked by p-51 mustangs and he shot 2 of em down. Kind of wierd.... but the guncam footage of it is kind of wierd cuz its a guncam that mostly only germans would use.
o and another question
WHEN ARE WE GONNA GET THE P-39!!!!! TOMORROW???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?
WAAA!!
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Originally posted by Motherland
Pokryshkin was the number 2 Allied ace... never came close to German scores though.
Well i googled it and the way the soviets scored kills was soo strict that it probably should have been like 80 kills. I bet they counted out bombers.... but still 59 soviet confirmed victories is pretty good since he DIDNT die.
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So i guess the soviets could sort of match the germans, in a small sense.
Maybe the germans average aces i guess i dont know much about the german aces though.
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Dude... SERIOUSLY... reply ONCE to all the points you want to cover, don't reply over and over and OVER and over and over and over....
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Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Thats because germans counted everything shot down.
No wounder most had 250+ kills.
But it's not like each and everyone was done with dog fighting, that simply will never* be truth.
"I bombed three parked planes in my 190 today, lets put it down as five dog fight kills, that should scare the russians a little more when they learn half our squad are *aces* operating in there area."
Hehe. Biggest joke of all time. Except the great British pre-war joke of course.
But really. You should read a bit how the Luftwarre and especially RLM verified the claims and credited the pilots. Usually claims took several months research and verification before official victory was awarded the pilot.
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FYI: It's absurd to the max to not count "transports" ... what next?!? Not count bombers? Not count recon? Not count fighters that are taking off??
Stupid way to slight a nationality, by saying "they claimed transports as kills!"
Tell that to the Soviets shooting down Ju-52s, or the allies near Malta (was it Malta? 200+ Ju52s loaded to the gills with troops and supplies).
It's got wings, and it's a weapon of war. If shot down, you should sure as hell claim it!
Nobody (save for the one who posted that) would assume every kill was a 1v1 combat between two heroic fighter pilots (insert old rolleyes here)
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Frankly, I find the US system of; "0.5 kills"... "1.5 kills".. and such much more absurd.
Besides, IIRC during the latter part of the war the USAAC themselves started awarding kills to targets destroyed while on the ground.
ps) ..like, shall I insert your foot into your mouth for you, Karmy?
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Kweassa, they might have also done it early on, I believe.
I recall Pappy Boyington counted 3-4 planes shot down on the ground as "kills" but when he moved to the USN they didn't count them, so he wasn't an "ace" in their book. [EDIT: I *think* he switched from the USAAC to the USN, which is why I think maybe the USAAC counted parked planes]
I've seen some kill markings that show normal planes and planes sitting on their gear on a line (as a profile sitting on the ground) so I guess they counted them, but made a distinction.
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But really. You should read a bit how the Luftwarre and especially RLM verified the claims and credited the pilots. Usually claims took several months research and verification before official victory was awarded the pilot.
On the 4th of July 1943 seven soviet planes (two Il-2 from 46 SHAP, two Hampden and three DB-3F from 9 gv MTAP) tried to attack german CV in Kirkines area and were intercepted by german fighters from 7./JG 5
Only two badly damaged DB-3F managed to return back from their mission, and the other FIVE soviet planes were shot down.
German pilots from 7./JG 5 claimed and were credited with SIXTEEN victories for this fight:
Lt. Weissenberger - 7
Ofw. Beulich - 4
Uffz. Beth - 2
Ofw. Dorr - 1
Fw. Drobler - 1
Lt. Eichhorn - 1
That's the example how "accurate" the scores of the LW pilots are.
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250+ kills don't mean jack to 35 because one nation only counted fighters/bombers, and not everything with wings like others did.
"Even tho score counting changed later in war for some of those nations."
MY POINT: Each nation counted scores and did things diffrently, total number's killed, is half the story.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Dude... SERIOUSLY... reply ONCE to all the points you want to cover, don't reply over and over and OVER and over and over and over....
lol i would read em then all of a sudden see another one that i wanted to reply to...........:rofl
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im srry, but erich hartmann is beyond a doubt (at least my doubt) the best ace in all history and always will be, flew with JG 52, had 352 kills, THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY-TWO. he also was never brought down by enemy fighters, only time he crash landed was due to mechanical failures
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Originally posted by Gowan
im srry, but erich hartmann is beyond a doubt (at least my doubt) the best ace in all history and always will be, flew with JG 52, had 352 kills, THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY-TWO. he also was never brought down by enemy fighters, only time he crash landed was due to mechanical failures
You just keep thinking that.
- oldman
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Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
250+ kills don't mean jack to 35 because one nation only counted fighters/bombers, and not everything with wings like others did.
"Even tho score counting changed later in war for some of those nations."
MY POINT: Each nation counted scores and did things diffrently, total number's killed, is half the story.
I can post a list of Hartmann's kills if you would like. All Airacobra's, Lavochkins, Yakovlevs, and Ilyushins. Im sure there was certain cheating on all sides, but when you have 9x the kill score of the top ace of the US, I dont think theres much argument.
Originally posted by Gowan
im srry, but erich hartmann is beyond a doubt (at least my doubt) the best ace in all history and always will be, flew with JG 52, had 352 kills, THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY-TWO. he also was never brought down by enemy fighters, only time he crash landed was due to mechanical failures
He WAS shot down by P51's over Romania IIRC. He had to ditch 14 times total.
BTW... As far as vulching goes... I dont know what you guys think the Germans were vulching. Incase you werent aware, after 1943, When Hartmann arrived on the front, Germany was on the defensive, and Im pretty sure that they were more worried about killing the hordes of Soviets than score padding. Its not like a 109 would make it that far anyway :rofl (short legs... its a joke)
(BTW, Barkhorn, with 301, didnt score a kill during Barbarossa, as he was a new pilot at the time.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I *think* he switched from the USAAC to the USN
AFAIK he was in neither, unless you equate Navy=USMC and AVG=USAAF, which is incorrect in both cases.
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If I recall, the marines flew off of navy ships.
But yes, that's what I was equating them to.
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motherland, you know the #1 and #2 allied aces were russians, of course the germans beat the us aces by like 9x cuz they werent really up in the top 2. Kozhedub (#1 allied ace) had 62 soviet confirmed kills but probably had about 100 (soviet kill confirmation) and the #2 allied ace was russian and he had 59 soviet confirmed kills but probably about 80 from what his wingmen said.
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Originally posted by Krusty
If I recall, the marines flew off of navy ships.
But yes, that's what I was equating them to.
http://www.acepilots.com/usmc_boyington.html
Krusty, I would have thought you knew that Gregory Boyington was a Marine, both before and after his stint with the AVG. And He never flew from a carrier.
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G. Boyington had 6 kills with the AVG and 22 with the USMC. His WW2 air to air tally was 28 confirmed and 4 probables with the AVG/USMC.
Some Marine squadrons flew off Navy ships, especially 1944-45 in ground support and night fighter roles, VMF-214 did not during his tour in the Solomons.
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Originally posted by Gowan
im srry, but erich hartmann is beyond a doubt (at least my doubt) the best ace in all history and always will be, flew with JG 52, had 352 kills, THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY-TWO. he also was never brought down by enemy fighters, only time he crash landed was due to mechanical failures
Hartmann was shotdown on more then one occasion and ditched damaged planes numerous times. I'm not going to dig thru all of them but Aug 12, 1943 Hartmann led 9 109's in attacks on IL-2s around kursk and got 2 before being hit. He flew west as far as he could before bellying the plane in and was captured by russians (who happened to be using a captured german truck)...he faked stomach pains and bolted when he got the chance...
As for being the best, thats a tough question...certainly he got the most kills, but that doesnt make him the best....just one of the best.
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Hartmann had the highest score. Yes. 352?
He had the USSR to deal with mostly. And for a lot of time inferior aircraft with inferior tactics. He did get shot down, and actually had both crashed an aircraft as well as chased his own wingman before he set the beads on a russian fighter.
Barkhorn was another, a crack ace. 302 kills?
Then Rall, 275. He got shot down 8 times. However, he bagged an aircraft in his first operational sortie and went on ops on many theaters, - France, BoB (which he considered very dangerous air-to-air), Crete, Romania, USSR ,then the western front again (Which he considered to be a very deadly environment). Considered the LW's best shot together with Marseille. Rall poo's on USSR claims by the way. (When the commisar demands results he will get results. On paper if necessary :D).
One of my favourite ace is "Pat" Pattle, since he had hard dealings and bagged 15 aircraft in a bipe. And one of the best of all was perhap's the S-African "Sailor" Malan, who reduced his score by sending LW bombers home alive but bleeding, - as a warning.
Malan also clobbered one of the German Aces, Werner Mölders (The top LW gun at the time) in a dogfight where Mölders started off with the advantage. Malan's excentrism with "bleeding enemies" perhaps saved Mölders?
AFAIK the LW claims were however quite authentic. Not in the BoB (But neither were the RAF's), but after. I have only found a couple of incidents (I scanned 1942, ETO) where the LW claimed above the RAF's losses, but not much. However in the Med, Russia and generally in big action, claims can get tricky to confirm. Isn't Marseille's day with 17 kills still disputed?
(AFAIK JUST his claim exceeds RAF and SAAF losses, let alone the AC types claimed)
that's....war....
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Originally posted by Angus
However in the Med, Russia and generally in big action, claims can get tricky to confirm. Isn't Marseille's day with 17 kills still disputed?
(AFAIK JUST his claim exceeds RAF and SAAF losses, let alone the AC types claimed)
Actually not. Allies lost much more planes in that area on that day. The original research that disputed his achievement failed to account all units that operated in that area. Combined, their losses were much more than Marseille's claims for 17 victories.
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Originally posted by angelsandair
motherland, you know the #1 and #2 allied aces were russians, of course the germans beat the us aces by like 9x cuz they werent really up in the top 2. Kozhedub (#1 allied ace) had 62 soviet confirmed kills but probably had about 100 (soviet kill confirmation) and the #2 allied ace was russian and he had 59 soviet confirmed kills but probably about 80 from what his wingmen said.
I know. But the Russian scores were being disputed in this thread earlier so I didnt use them as an example (and I dont know the top Brit scorers either... who cares? He was probably a Spit dweeb anyway :rofl (just kidding...)
Still, with Pokryshkins 'possible' 100 kills, thats still less than a third of Hartmann's.
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The top Allied ace in western Europe, Johnnie Johnson (39 kills, all single engined fighters, Spitfire Mk IX) was once asked by a journalist why he hadn't gotten as many kills as Hartman. His response was that he hadn't seen that many enemy aircraft in the entire war.
There was nothing inately better about German pilots or German aircraft and if the US, UK or Russians had been facing the numbers they would have had some pilots with kills in the same range.
But it was the Germans that were flying in a target rich environment (aka, losing) and flying until they died.
Thus the scores.
FYI, highest confirmed score by a non-Luftwaffe pilot was by 94 by Ilmari Juutilainen of the Finnish Air Force.
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Gunther Scheel is arguably the best ace on any side in the war. The fact that he did it on the eastern front makes it easier but considering he had 70 kills in 71 sorties over just 5 months of combat before colliding with a Yak-9 he had just shot down. Comparing this with hartmann who had only 11 kills over his 1st 5 months of combat...if we look at hartmanns score from the start (1st kill Nov 5, 1942) till the end of July he had 42 total kills...
Hartmann and Scheel both hit there "Stride" in April of 43. Looking at April thru July Hartmann had 36 kills. Scheel had 61 kills from April to July 16th when he went down. In fact he had more kills during the 1st 16 days of July 1943 (41) then Hartmann had total victories (39) when he went down. Scheel ditched his plane and was captured bit never repriated after the war and is still listed as MIA. I think his 41 kills in 2 weeks and overall K/S are far and away the best of any pilot for any nation.
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Originally posted by Motherland
I know. But the Russian scores were being disputed in this thread earlier so I didnt use them as an example (and I dont know the top Brit scorers either... who cares? He was probably a Spit dweeb anyway :rofl (just kidding...)
Still, with Pokryshkins 'possible' 100 kills, thats still less than a third of Hartmann's.
Pokryshkin had possibly 80 Kozhedub had possibly 100, plus they pretty much till the la-7 and yak-9s, and i guess 3s were outdone aircraft wise by the germans.
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alexaner porkyshin had 52(1/2?) kills. i have a 72' model of his P39/:D
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Should be noted that Marshal Pokryshkin was all but barred from active flights against (what was left) of the Luftwaffe from 1944 onwards.
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If I recall a lot of the German kills go back to the Spanish civil war when the German planes had complete control of the skies over Spain, for that matter Poland too.
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"There was nothing inately better about German pilots or German aircraft and if the US, UK or Russians had been facing the numbers they would have had some pilots with kills in the same range.
But it was the Germans that were flying in a target rich environment (aka, losing) and flying until they died."
I certainly agree.
I'd like to point out however that the German training before the war was probably especially good and they had the legacy of WW1 veterans in their immediate disposal plus a fresh organisation which made it easy to adjust to new doctrines (there were some deficiencies too...). As it came out they were not just maintaining their airforce as other countries but building it especially for war.
Tactically in eastern front the small amount of planes and small formations made it easier for German pilots to surprise the Russian aircraft which tended to fly in larger formations making them easier to spot and ofter providing a false confidence.
Hartmann, when he arrived, still had a good training and got on the front in the right time to survive the hazardous learning phase and had the advantage of flying in a very target rich environment with tactics and a/c which could ensure survivability, although it was not always enough but he was merely just lucky to survive.
-C+