Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on February 08, 2008, 02:18:43 PM
-
Flying the older aircraft in the LWMA is even more challenging than I expected. The most difficult part is not the dogfighting performance, but the low speed: you can never run away. That means that many 1vs1 engagements end up 3vs1 and you just have to fight to the death.:p
Lately I've tried:
A6M2
109E
SpitMk1
P-40
F4F
Ki61
The most disappointing of all these has been the Ki61. It's slow and doesn't turn as well as most Spitfires. If you can keep your energy up it's ok, but even then it is a dog. Average to above average pilots like me will suffer with it.
One middle tier aircraft that receives little LWMA use is the Mosquito. I thought no one would try to ho my Mosquito, but I couldn't have been more wrong...too bad for them.:t
All in all, however, flying these aircraft makes my K/D and K/S ratios plummet. It is the pilot, not the plane, but at a certain point the plane can count for a lot.:lol Anyway, it's a good learning experience and I'm going to continue trying the little-used rides during this tour, and I will die a lot.:cry
-------------------------
P.S. Is it me or do many pilots target older aircraft first when they have a choice?
-
Yes, people enthusiastically pursue the EW rides, as it is typically assumed that they are the easiest to kill.
-
I'm a skilless noob myself, but look up Kermit if you need some tips on outflying late war rides with the KI61. I'm sure there are many good 61 sticks, but I've ran into him in a 61 a few times and learned not to underestimate that plane.
Aspen
-
As one who is up in a 38G in Latewar all the time, I understand that I'll never be able to run. And 38s tend to draw lots of attention, in particular if they are lower then everyone else.
But that's the fun for me in trying to make em work hard for the kill.
Leaving myself out of the equation, I tend to be wary of early war rides as generally the guys in em, know what they are doing.
-
Burn the wing tanks low in the 61 first, it helps.
Also the 38G is a great ride, if you're feeling like a target.
-
Ki 61 is my favorite Spit killer:aok
Its cannons fire faster than .50 cal M2s and it's mounted in the nose:t
-
Ki61 is one of my favorites, but I'd trade in the Spit 1 for a Huri 1.
-
I love the Ki 61. It can turn with spit marks 8/9/14/16. For me it was the Japanese interpretation of what the Me 109 should have been.
-
I love the Ki 61. It can turn with spit marks 8/9/14/16
Maybe I had too much fuel and my opponents had little...
According to DocGonzo's aircraft performance pages, the Ki-61 has a larger turn radius than the Spitfire XVI and VIII, and with flaps deployed it's radius is larger than the IX too. http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php (http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php)
I know that sometimes aircraft with a larger turn radius can have a better turn rate, but that's doubtful in this case.
-
Ki-61 is a great plane. I haven't flown it in a long time, but way back when...before the Ki-84 came in the game, I flew a couple of tours in Japanese planes only.
Got sick of the NIKI quick, and flew the Ki-61 a lot. My impression was that it flew like an underpowered Pony. It's also similar to a C205 or one of the early/middle 109 models. If you're familiar with those planes, then flying the Ki-61 should be a reasonable adaptation. I remember the cannons being my least favorite part. Either their rate of fire, or their ballistics (i.e. drop) or both.
-
i like the Yak and the 109F4 myself.
-
I really love fighting against any spit in a 109e.
-
I'm for the Ki too. And the Hurri 1.
Had many hours of enjoyment in the Tony.
-
Originally posted by Hap
I'm for the Ki too. And the Hurri 1.
Had many hours of enjoyment in the Tony.
Yup. But the Tony is a difficult plane to fly well, takes some learning. Keep the speed in the 200s is my advice. And don't expect it to be able to outturn Spits, there really are not a lot of planes that can do that.
- oldman (well...except for the Hurri I, of course)
-
All those rides except the Dweeb1 are good. Especially the Ki61 just ask Odege.
...-Gixer
-
Originally posted by Oldman731
Yup. But the Tony is a difficult plane to fly well, takes some learning. Keep the speed in the 200s is my advice. And don't expect it to be able to outturn Spits, there really are not a lot of planes that can do that.
- oldman (well...except for the Hurri I, of course)
Only Spit I cannot outturn in a Tony, is the Mk 1. The other's are outturned easily.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Only Spit I cannot outturn in a Tony, is the Mk 1. The other's are outturned easily.
You and I should meet to test that.
- oldman (hey, it will give me a chance to fly a spit!)
-
He's not really "outturning" a spitty as much as outflying the other guy. The tony is a great E to angles fighter and if you keep it on the "X" it'll hang with just about anything. It's amazingly docile at high AoA and really just falls off vs stalling It'll reload E very quickly so it creates a pretty good window of opportunity till the gerbal finally dies. Most spit drivers will get to fast or to slow vs a good tony driver. It's alot like the F6F in that regard...it'll beat most spit drivers....not most spits.
-
Originally posted by Oldman731
You and I should meet to test that.
- oldman (hey, it will give me a chance to fly a spit!)
I do it all day long in the LWA. Ask anyone. If they see a Rook Tony, I'm usually asked if it's me on 200.
-
I love PWN'ing people in Hurricane I/II's, FM-2's, Yak 9-T/U's, La-5FN's, and Bf109-F's. The Hurricane is a NASTY little angles fighter. The majority of pilots in the LWA just don't know how to deal with it. It is as if in their minds slow=bad turner, and try to get in an angles fight with me. Many a Spit 8/16, has fallen to the .303's sawing off the elevators/rudder.
The FM-2, is also a surprise to most. I usually can get most Noobs, to blow their E, trying to pick me repeatedly, then pounce on them as they flop around like fish out of water. Learning to evade the pick, and force them into my fight, is a fine art.
The Yak's are hidden jewels of this game, most people don't take the time to appreciate the finer points of the Yak's qualities. The La-5FN, is ignored mostly because of its slightly faster, harder hitting brother the La-7. And lastly the 109-F, it's agility catches those used to the later G/K "dump-truck" flight models by surprise.
-
i used to love flying the p38G as it was a competant fighter but then some jerkwad p38 dweeb complained about the p38s being to heavy or underpowered or some nonsense. if I remember right HTC researched it again and found the p38G to be too light and added 500lbs to the 38G to make it more accurate.
I find the p38G to be very unenjoyable to fly in any arena since that happened.
and it was my main ride for a long time.
-
To my surpise you dont see many 109f's out there, even if it will hang with the best of the planes in any situation, just make sure you hold that alt because once your on the deck doing 300, Its La7 food.
-
I like the 109F and the P40 for some odd reason. When I first started in AH there was a pilot, I think his name was hapvodka or something like that as I havn't seen him on in ages, and he did P40 sweeps all the time. First time I ever landed multiple kills was in a P40. I still use it. Climb up to 25k and dive down on people, they don't expect it to be as good as it is.
Its interesting you mention the LA7 v. 109F on the deck Adonai, in the vid I have on youtube it shows my 109F take down an LA7 on the deck. It's a great plane.
-
Originally posted by Adonai
To my surpise you dont see many 109f's out there, even if it will hang with the best of the planes in any situation, just make sure you hold that alt because once your on the deck doing 300, Its La7 food.
When ever I see a 109F eagler comes to mind.
-
I too love the ki61, think ill be flying it more now mentioned.
The key drawbacks are, engine power, and cannon ammo. "well it runs out quickly because of rate of fire."
The second querk realy, is the fact if you want decent roll rate, the wing tanks MUST be used up first. The roll rate is not that bad i guess, but it sure helps when they are empty.
Oh yeah and only use the cannons when you have a for sure shot, otherwise use the machine guns to range target.
Hope it helps.
-
Originally posted by Adonai
To my surpise you dont see many 109f's out there, even if it will hang with the best of the planes in any situation, just make sure you hold that alt because once your on the deck doing 300, Its La7 food.
I love that plane, it's probably my second favorite. I don't fly it as much as I should, but then again I don't really fly as much as I want to. I prefer planes that can't run because it makes me fight(though poorly in most cases).
-
I see a lot of comments about burning off fuel in wing tanks first to improve roll rate. Typically, the aircraft being referred to are the C.205, Ki-61 and F4U-1A.
Personally, I find this to be an exercise that is generally meaningless. The increase in roll rate is negligible at best. Indeed, the gain is usually less than 5 degrees per second during the initial part of the roll, if that.
If 5 degrees per second is what you believe is all that separates you from damnation, then you must re-think the equation.
Weight of fuel, total fuel, is of greater consequence. Especially is a low-speed fight or one that breaks down to a low-speed fight. I'm much more concerned with minimizing my wing loading than sweating a few degrees of roll rate.
Managing your aircraft begins in the hanger. Think about how much ammunition you have when you return from a flight. If you consistently return with plenty of gas, but empty guns, you're loading an excessive amount of fuel.
You can gain improvement in both roll rate and wing loading by taking less internal fuel. Supplement your fuel with external, disposable fuel tanks. In most cases, when you decrease internal fuel, the wing tanks are those reduced or unfilled. Perhaps two drop tanks (as in the Ki-61) is more weight and drag than you what. Pitch off one of them. 50% fuel and a single drop tank is usually adequate.
When flying the F4U-1A you are faced with a compromise. By adding a drop tank you add the rack to carry it. The rack cannot be ejected. Thus, you lose about 6 to 8 mph of max speed capability. I'd trade the speed for the reduced wing loading. Like the Ki-61, 50% internal fuel and the belly tank is adequate.
As for the C.205, you don't have an external fuel option. So, you can burn off the wing tanks if you wish, but any rate roll increase you expect is largely in your mind. The weight of fuel in the wings is small and the actual, measured roll rate increase is insignificant.
Roll rate is only one aspect of overall aircraft performance, and far from the greatest aspect. The far more important factor is the person piloting the aircraft. ACM skill, aircraft handling skill and rock solid Situational Awareness are orders of magnitude more important than trying to optimize roll rate. If you encounter a significantly more skilled pilot than you, a tiny increase in roll rate will have zero impact upon the inevitable outcome.
My advice is simple. Stop trying to pick the fly turds out of the pepper and concentrate on the far more important factors that most impact your ability to be successful flying fighters.
My regards,
Widewing
-
You should RARELY, EVER need more than 50% fuel w/ NO DT in a Tony. If you have to travel a couple sectors, then grab 75%. The DT is NOT NEEDED at all. Grabbing the DT is pointless.
I have flown the Tony enough to know that "whatever happens" when you burn the wing tanks, is the craft becomes very stable. I can turn tighter, roll a little bit better (not a ton better). It isn't in my mind, because I turn with 90% of the fighters in the LWA, while in it. Spits are easy for me to turn with. Hogs are easy meat as well. I've even gotten AKDogg in one, he even admitted he misjudged my E.
What I find funny is that the majority of the "dweeb rides" I come across, while in the Tony, end up doing something "cocky". In doing so, they not only misjudge my E retention, but they are often in the hangar very quickly.
The Tony is the single most Underrated Plane in the Entire Game.
-
The other day my squaddies and I tried a few odd ball a/c in late war and had a blast . We took the P40 , Hurri Mk1 , A6m2 , C 202 and it is a learning curve as everyone of these planes will get you into trouble but are not fast enough to get you out . Really you look for places to seperate or extend and get away but much of the time you don't get to .
My Favs are P40E , C 205 I land them occassionally , but learn alot too !!:D
and as has been said beware there is no sure kill in this game you never know whos on the stick !!!! :aok
-
i am not that good but some times i can hold my own in the LWA.
i like the ki61 i spent a month or two flying it and landed a good number of kills the thing i like most was when a new guy caled me a cheat because i shot down his chog then his f4fu4 in the same flight.
learn to fly it and youll have losts of pleasure.
-
There's not much more fun than a zeke with 10 minutes of fuel left. An empty zeke will do miraculous things.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
You should RARELY, EVER need more than 50% fuel w/ NO DT in a Tony. If you have to travel a couple sectors, then grab 75%. The DT is NOT NEEDED at all. Grabbing the DT is pointless.
I have flown the Tony enough to know that "whatever happens" when you burn the wing tanks, is the craft becomes very stable. I can turn tighter, roll a little bit better (not a ton better). It isn't in my mind, because I turn with 90% of the fighters in the LWA, while in it. Spits are easy for me to turn with. Hogs are easy meat as well. I've even gotten AKDogg in one, he even admitted he misjudged my E.
What I find funny is that the majority of the "dweeb rides" I come across, while in the Tony, end up doing something "cocky". In doing so, they not only misjudge my E retention, but they are often in the hangar very quickly.
The Tony is the single most Underrated Plane in the Entire Game.
Why is taking a drop tank pointless? Suppose you get airborne only to run into a bunch of low enemy sneaking in. What would you rather have, 75% internal, or pitch off the drop tank and have 50% instantly? No need to answer, it's logical. Lighter is better.
Now, as to wing tanks burning off first... The Tony becomes more stable because burning off fuel makes it lighter. The few gallons in the wing makes virtually no difference. Any time you reduce weight, you reduce wing loading. Lower wing loading means lower stall speed, which feels more stable.
I've tested the the Ki-61 with 50% fuel, burning off the wing tanks and then flying it at the limits, including testing for minimal turn radius. Then, I took another Tony with 50% fuel, burned off the center and aux tanks (leaving fuel in the wing tanks only) and repeated the exercise. Four tests for minimum turn radius, two each in above fuel states. Results:
Empty wing tanks, 50% center and aux.
516.3 ft
511.6 ft
Empty center and aux tanks, 50% in wing tanks.
513.6 ft
512.9 ft
I could not feel the slightest difference in stability. You may believe there is, and that's fine if that gives you more confidence; but clinically, there's no difference.
Now lets take another look at the Ki-61's turn radius. I averaged 513.6 ft, with Mosq's data showing 519 ft. Close enough considering we use different hardware. We both average a turn rate of 18.0 feet per second, give or take a tenth of a degree.
Lets compare that to some other fighters.
SpitIX: 432.9 ft @ 20.5 DPS (Mosq)
F6F-5: 447.4 ft @ 20.7 DPS (Widewing)
SpitVIII: 445.1 ft @ 21.0 DPS (Widewing)
F4U-1D: 427.4 ft @ 19.3 DPS (Mosq)
SpitXIV: 509.3 ft @ 19.4 DPS (Mosq)
As you can see, all of the above out-turn the Tony, most with great ease. Moreover, all have a much better rate of turn, meaning that they get around the circle faster. In short, all of the above will beat the Tony like a toy drum in any kind of a turning contest.
So, when you say you can out-turn a Spitfire, what you are really doing is demonstrating that you are a much better pilot than the Spit driver. You are beating them with the inferior fighter.
You should take credit for that as a pilot, don't give credit to the Ki-61. Given equal pilots, the Ki-61 is out-classed.
(Edit; I forgot to mention that I fly the Ki-61 in the MA and quite often in the TA. I enjoy it for its great medium to high speed handling and its death laser cannon.)
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by Widewing
Why is taking a drop tank pointless? Suppose you get airborne only to run into a bunch of low enemy sneaking in. What would you rather have, 75% internal, or pitch off the drop tank and have 50% instantly? No need to answer, it's logical. Lighter is better.
Now, as to wing tanks burning off first... The Tony becomes more stable because burning off fuel makes it lighter. The few gallons in the wing makes virtually no difference. Any time you reduce weight, you reduce wing loading. Lower wing loading means lower stall speed, which feels more stable.
I've tested the the Ki-61 with 50% fuel, burning off the wing tanks and then flying it at the limits, including testing for minimal turn radius. Then, I took another Tony with 50% fuel, burned off the center and aux tanks (leaving fuel in the wing tanks only) and repeated the exercise. Four tests for minimum turn radius, two each in above fuel states. Results:
Empty wing tanks, 50% center and aux.
516.3 ft
511.6 ft
Empty center and aux tanks, 50% in wing tanks.
513.6 ft
512.9 ft
I could not feel the slightest difference in stability. You may believe there is, and that's fine if that gives you more confidence; but clinically, there's no difference.
Now lets take another look at the Ki-61's turn radius. I averaged 513.6 ft, with Mosq's data showing 519 ft. Close enough considering we use different hardware. We both average a turn rate of 18.0 feet per second, give or take a tenth of a degree.
Lets compare that to some other fighters.
SpitIX: 432.9 ft @ 20.5 DPS (Mosq)
F6F-5: 447.4 ft @ 20.7 DPS (Widewing)
SpitVIII: 445.1 ft @ 21.0 DPS (Widewing)
F4U-1D: 427.4 ft @ 19.3 DPS (Mosq)
SpitXIV: 509.3 ft @ 19.4 DPS (Mosq)
As you can see, all of the above out-turn the Tony, most with great ease. Moreover, all have a much better rate of turn, meaning that they get around the circle faster. In short, all of the above will beat the Tony like a toy drum in any kind of a turning contest.
So, when you say you can out-turn a Spitfire, what you are really doing is demonstrating that you are a much better pilot than the Spit driver. You are beating them with the inferior fighter.
You should take credit for that as a pilot, don't give credit to the Ki-61. Given equal pilots, the Ki-61 is out-classed.
(Edit; I forgot to mention that I fly the Ki-61 in the MA and quite often in the TA. I enjoy it for its great medium to high speed handling and its death laser cannon.)
My regards,
Widewing
If you need more than 33 mins of gas, then I guess take the DT. 95% of the time I take only 50%
I have no problems turning with most planes, etc. I'll never be cocky enough to say "I'm good".
I said I can "turn with", not "out turn" (previous to your post I said "turn with" as well). My persona gets some people going and they tend to "Stray from what I say".
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
If you need more than 33 mins of gas, then I guess take the DT. 95% of the time I take only 50%
I have no problems turning with most planes, etc. I'll never be cocky enough to say "I'm good".
I said I can "turn with", not "out turn" (previous to your post I said "turn with" as well). My persona gets some people going and they tend to "Stray from what I say".
Another thing I didn't mention. US Navy testing of the Ki-61 revealed that its turn radius was roughly the same as that of the FM-2. If that were the case in AH2, you certainly could out-turn Spitfires.. Maybe Pyro can revisit that when they get around to updating the graphics of the Japanese fighters.
You can read that test here. (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/Tony-I.pdf)
My regards,
Widewing
-
What determines second or third tier?
Is there a list somehwere?
-
Generally speaking, one can use a tiny bit of intelligence applied to knowledge of the plane-set and come up with a suitable list on their own.
I'll get you started.
First tier planes do everything well. Their biggest weakness is they are only "good" in one area, instead of outstanding.
Two examples of first tier planes are the La-7 and the Spit 16.
Second tier planes do most things well, or one thing very well. A good way to look at a second tier plane is to compare it to a first tier plane. For example - the 109K4 is like an La-7 that doesn't turn as well, doesn't accelerate as well, isn't as fast, and has less firepower. Does that make the 109K a bad plane? No, it is a pretty good plane actually. Solid second tier. The Hurri2C makes the second tier, because it has the best gun package in the game, combined with outstanding manueverability. The Tiffie makes the second tier because it has the best gun package in the game, combined with outstanding speed.
Third tier planes typically are in the bottom half of the plane set in all performance areas. They really have no redeeming qualities bar historical interest. The P-40s are third tier (and quite far down it, I might add).
Some people will have different lists because it really is a subjective thing. For example, to me all the 190s (bar the D) are third tier planes. The D squeaks into the second tier, barely (mainly because it is fast). Some people will say I'm wrong. That is cool with me, I don't care.
-
I was being mostly facetious with the list question. ;)
My only observation is that some people seem to think the date of entry into the war of the plane you are flying is tied in some way to test levels. :D