Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on February 11, 2008, 03:15:54 PM
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Good lunch time reading. I'd heard of the catastrophe in early 1991, but never read the whole story. Roughly 120 died
The bodies that could be identified numbered several dozen, including that of the officer whose poor judgement had caused the disaster. They were shipped home from the Soviet central Asia launch site for individual interment. Dozens more were burned beyond recognition in the horrible conflagration, and whatever remains could be found -- teeth, charred leather, shards of bone, keys and coins -- were swept up from the scorched concrete, placed in a single coffin, and lowered into a grave in a park in the rocket workers' city of Leninsk.
The families of these Soviet rocket workers were alone in their grief. Officials quickly announced that the commander had died in an airplane crash. As far as the rest of the world knew in that fall of 1960, the Soviets' efforts in space continued to move from one crowning success to another.
European journalists in Moscow soon picked up rumors that a gigantic rocket had exploded "in Siberia," killing hundreds, but those stories quickly took their place amid other oft-embellished legends of dead cosmonauts, super weapons, and similar folklore. U.S. intelligence officers had something more concrete: several blurred, spotty photographs of the site brought back by a Discoverer recoverable reconnaissance satellite. ('The scorched area was tremendous," one officer told me two decades later shaking his head.)
But at the time they were as quiet as the Soviets about their findings. Something horrible may indeed have happened, Western experts concluded, but there was no way to be sure what it was.
Time passed. The grave site in the Leninsk park was covered with a grassy mound 40 feet across and fenced in. Local officials erected a memorial obelisk, with 54 name-bearing plaques spaced along the four sides of its square perimeter. Friends, relatives, and co-workers at the Baikonur Cosmodrome launch complex kept the memorial decorated.
Other disasters occurred at the Cosmodrome from time to time, and new memorials were added to the park. One touching tribute was built in a corner of the spaceport's museum -- until recently kept secret from outsiders both Soviet and foreign -- where a scorched notebook found on an engineer's body was displayed behind glass. No label was necessary. Over the decades the local rocket workers, who knew the Cosmodrome's full history from first-hand accounts of survivors and family members, wore the wooden case smooth with their hands.
The recent opening up of the Cosmodrome to outsiders also opened up many of the workers' bitterness at the decades of official denial. "If you only knew of all the explosions and deaths," one museum official lamented to a visitor earlier this year, "you would be horrified at the size of the deceptions." Evidently much more is still held in secret Soviet archives or, worse, was documented in records the museum staff was regularly ordered to destroy. But none of those later accidents at the Cosmodrome (or another that killed 50 men at the Plesetsk rocket center north of Moscow in 1980) ever approached the death toll of that October evening only three years after Sputnik 1.
Over the years, many conflicting accounts of the disaster reached the West. As a lifelong space nut fascinated with Soviet mysteries and the sleuthing needed to unravel them, I collected and evaluated the stories and tried to fit the pieces together for more than a quarter of a century. Details came from credible Soviet sources both inside the USSR and overseas. Top-level spy Oleg Penkovskiy, executed in 1965, wrote in his memoirs that a "nuclear-powered" missile had exploded, and many recent Russian émigré elaborated on the theme (apparently basing their reports on the coincidental deaths of several top Soviet nuclear weapons experts elsewhere that October). Émigré Zhores Medvedev, who had a record of correct assessments, reported that the disaster involved a "moon rocket" needed for a propaganda spectacular. Nikita Khrushchev himself mentioned the disaster in the first volume of his memoirs, smuggled out of the Soviet Union and published in the United States in 1970, but he gave no hint of the role he may have played.
From these stories a scenario emerged. Late one afternoon a rocket's countdown was halted when problems cropped up. The launch team, ordered outside to attempt repairs, mounted the scaffolding around the balky, fully fueled missile. Suddenly the second-stage engine ignited, bursting the fuel tanks of the first stage and covering the launch pad in a tidal wave of flame.
cont.
http://www.astronautix.com/articles/therophe.htm
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Any bets on Boroda coming up with stories like that for Nasa?;)
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Any bets on Boroda coming up with stories like that for Nasa?;)
Either that, or that this never happened.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Either that, or that this never happened.
Im betting on both lol.
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Obviously poorr amerikan special effects teams faked the footage:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewQqFFSRPs0)
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Obviously poorr amerikan special effects teams faked the footage:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewQqFFSRPs0)
Nice link Vulcan lol
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Im betting on both lol.
The Kremlins web filter seems to have kept him out of this one :)
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Cameras triggered automatically by the blast.....mkay
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Originally posted by KgB
Cameras triggered automatically by the blast.....mkay
The way that I understand it is that the cameras automatically trigger upon any launch sequence of any rocket motor, not the blast. This is typical of our space program in its early days as well, sort of a historical database should something go wrong and no one survive.
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but you believe it tho right kgb?
You do believe that it was all hidden from you "for your own good" all these years right?
lazs
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"Good lunch time reading. xxxxxxxx Roughly 120 died"
Eh? What's "good" in it? That those people died and how they died, not thinking that they had wives and children mourning them?
-C+
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Originally posted by lazs2
but you believe it tho right kgb?
You do believe that it was all hidden from you "for your own good" all these years right?
My Grandfather served in Missile Corps until 1966, Father flew over 2 million km to Baikonur and back to Moscow in 1979-87, he visited Cosmodrome at least 1- 2 times every month, so I have heard of Nedelin's death when I was a little boy.
I don't see any reasons for releasing such "news" to public. I am all for controlled media, I have told many times why.
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Another soviet cover-up story of possibly even greater magnitude.
On April 2, 1979, there was an unusual anthrax outbreak which affected 94 people and killed at least 64 of them in the Soviet city of Sverdlovsk (now called Ekaterinburg), roughly 850 miles east of Moscow. The first victim died after four days; the last one died six weeks later.
The Soviet government claimed the deaths were caused by intestinal anthrax from tainted meat, a story some influential American scientists found believable. However, officials in the Carter administration suspected the outbreak was caused by an accidental release of anthrax spores from a suspected Soviet biological weapons facility located in the city. The US believed that the Soviet Union was violating the Biological Weapons Convention signed in 1972 and made their suspicions public. But the Soviets denied any activities relating to biological weapons and at numerous international conferences tried to prove their contaminated meat story.
It wasn't until thirteen years later - 1992- that President Boris Yeltsin admitted, without going into details, that the anthrax outbreak was the result of military activity at the facility. During those thirteen years, while an intense debate raged within the international scientific and intelligence communities on whether the Russians were telling the truth, the Soviet Union continued its offensive biological warfare program unabated.
Around the time Yeltsin admitted the military facility was responsible for the incident, Russia allowed a team of Western scientists to go to Sverdlovsk to investigate the outbreak. The team visited Sverdlovsk in June 1992 and August 1993 and included Professor Matt Meselson.
Although the KGB had confiscated hospital and other records after the incident, the Western scientists were able to track where all the victims had been at the time of the anthrax release. Their results showed that on the day of the incident all the victims were clustered along a straight line downwind from the military facility. Livestock in the same area also died of anthrax. After completing their investigation, the team concluded the outbreak was caused by a release of an aerosol of anthrax pathogen at the military facility. But they were unable to determine what caused the release or what specific activities were conducted at the facility.
According to FRONTLINE's interview with Dr. Kanatjan Alibekov, former first deputy chief for Biopreparat (the civilian part of the Soviet biological weapons program), the anthrax airborne leak had been caused by workers at the military facility who forgot to replace a filter in an exhaust system. The mistake was realized shortly after, but by then some anthrax spores were released. Alibekov says if the wind had been in the opposite direction that day--toward the city of Sverdlovsk--the death rate could have been in the hundreds of thousands.
To this day, Western inspectors have not been allowed to visit this military facility.
Three facts about this are rather frightening.
1. The amount of anthrax spores released was quite small, definitely smaller than the amount contained in the infamous anthrax envelopes. It doesn't go into detail in the article, but if I remember from other sources I've read, people as far as 50km downwind of the plant were infected.
2. The last fatality occured six weeks later Nobody in the west would've ever thought that anthrax could be weaponeered into such a persistant agent.
3. Most frigtening, recently state controlled media (all TV in russia now is state controlled) in russia have ran stories denying that it was caused by an accident at a Biopreperat plant, and that it was really just a natural outbreak.
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I'd not heard of that before Suave. Thanks for sharing.
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How many people died?
Here all people working with animals get anthrax vaccination. Sanitary inspections usually check areas for anthrax graves if you want to get a permission for activities like summer camps for kids.
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Originally posted by Boroda
I don't see any reasons for releasing such "news" to public. I am all for controlled media, I have told many times why.
Well then I'll trust you'll be casting your vote for Putin's puppy.
Thirteen journalists have been killed in contract-style murders since Russian President Vladimir Putin took office, according to reporting by the Committee to Protect Journalists. No one has been brought to justice in any of the slayings.
http://www.cpj.org/Briefings/2005/russia_murders/russia_murders.html
Well this story doesn't get any attention over here in the US either. I thought it was actually more than 13, but hey, who's counting.
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Originally posted by Suave
Well then I'll trust you'll be casting your vote for Putin's puppy.
I'll skip this "elections". Voted for Commies for Parliament, but their leader who goes for president is just another stupid crook.
Don't make conclusions about things you don't have a slightest idea of.
Originally posted by Suave
http://www.cpj.org/Briefings/2005/russia_murders/russia_murders.html
Well this story doesn't get any attention over here in the US either. I thought it was actually more than 13, but hey, who's counting.
Only 13?! If I was to decide - Most of them will be hanging on lamp posts.
"Kill a journalist, save common sence!"
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boroda.. I believe that you have explained your reason for "controlled media"
I believe it goes along the lines of "free speech means no food" something along those lines.
Even after... especially after.. your explanation.. I don't get it.
lazs
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Maybe Russia needs its own planet, far far away..
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda.. I believe that you have explained your reason for "controlled media"
I believe it goes along the lines of "free speech means no food" something along those lines.
Even after... especially after.. your explanation.. I don't get it.
lazs
It's simple lazs, when the USSR was at its height they supressed the media, so if there was a problem it wasn't reported, if it wasn't reported there was no problem. Simple soviet logic da?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
It's simple lazs, when the USSR was at its height they supressed the media, so if there was a problem it wasn't reported, if it wasn't reported there was no problem. Simple soviet logic da?
Heh! I once knew a drunk that said he didn't have a drinking problem. "I get drunk, I fall down, no problem!"
:rofl
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Originally posted by Vulcan
It's simple lazs, when the USSR was at its height they supressed the media, so if there was a problem it wasn't reported, if it wasn't reported there was no problem. Simple soviet logic da?
One simple example: no terror acts media coverage -> no environment for spreading terror -> no terrorism.
There was no terrorism in USSR.
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Originally posted by Boroda
One simple example: no terror acts media coverage -> no environment for spreading terror -> no terrorism.
There was no terrorism in USSR.
Ah, but there was! (http://www.biografiasyvidas.com/biografia/s/fotos/stalin.jpg)
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Originally posted by Boroda
One simple example: no terror acts media coverage -> no environment for spreading terror -> no terrorism.
There was no terrorism in USSR.
yes, the gulags were really vacation resorts. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Boroda
One simple example: no terror acts media coverage -> no environment for spreading terror -> no terrorism.
There was no terrorism in USSR.
Thats right, everyone was well behaved and never rebelled
(http://www.menziesera.com/years/videos/1956_hungary.jpg)
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda.. I believe that you have explained your reason for "controlled media"
I believe it goes along the lines of "free speech means no food" something along those lines.
Even after... especially after.. your explanation.. I don't get it.
I explained one of the advantages above in my answer to Vulcan.
Look, any media in so-called "free world" is controlled by some political or financial group. It's better to have media controlled in some rational way then to turn it into an unorganized brainwashing tool for those who can afford mass-brainwashing. I mean - better for a society as one organism, a concept that you strongly oppose.
Now can anyone tell me what could change for better if Soviet TV showed Nedelin's death in every news program or if it reported anthrax accident in the 1970s?
Media's entertaining function is secondary, it is used only to attract attention to make brainwashing easier. Purposes of brainwashing in different societies are quite a different question. I hope that you admit being brainwashed all the time, just as i do.
I hope you understand what I mean. It should be at least interesting to listen to arguments from the other side, in your case - from a devoted totalitarianist.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ah, but there was! (http://www.biografiasyvidas.com/biografia/s/fotos/stalin.jpg)
Now you have more people in jails per 100,000 of population then Stalin's USSR in it's worst years, your authorities admit torturing prisoners, so what?
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Originally posted by john9001
yes, the gulags were really vacation resorts. :rolleyes:
I can't see any connection between my post and your exhaust into a puddle. Can you please elaborate?...
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Originally posted by Boroda
I explained one of the advantages above in my answer to Vulcan.
Look, any media in so-called "free world" is controlled by some political or financial group. It's better to have media controlled in some rational way then to turn it into an unorganized brainwashing tool for those who can afford mass-brainwashing. I mean - better for a society as one organism, a concept that you strongly oppose.
Now can anyone tell me what could change for better if Soviet TV showed Nedelin's death in every news program or if it reported anthrax accident in the 1970s?
Media's entertaining function is secondary, it is used only to attract attention to make brainwashing easier. Purposes of brainwashing in different societies are quite a different question. I hope that you admit being brainwashed all the time, just as i do.
I hope you understand what I mean. It should be at least interesting to listen to arguments from the other side, in your case - from a devoted totalitarianist.
In the "free world" the media is controlled by diverse sources. Yes they are biased, but the key word here is diverse. We have a choice of what we listen too, who we listen too, and we get to hear both sides of the story. Whereas in the USSR the media was controlled by one source, so you only got what they wanted you to hear.
But hey, at the end of the day our system works because your system collapsed in on itself :) sucks to be wrong huh boroda.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Now you have more people in jails per 100,000 of population then Stalin's USSR in it's worst years, your authorities admit torturing prisoners, so what?
Source?
My source says 2 million jailed (NOT FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES LIKE STALIN) for a population of 300 million.
Nope. I think Uncle Joe has us beat there Boroda.:)
Peasant dead: 1930-37 11,000,000
Arrested in this period dying in camps later 3,500,000
Total 14,500,000
Of these:
Dead as a result of dekulakization 6,500,000
Dead in the Kazakh catastrophe 1,000,000
Dead in the 1932-33 famine: 7,000,000
Famine in Ukraine 5,000,000
Famine in the North Caucasus 1,000,000
Famine elsewhere 1,000,000
Look at the bright side, USSR beat USA in SOMETHING! ;)
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Comrade Ripsnort, I believe you are confused over official KGB Tourism data for sibera, those happy soviets went there of their own free will to experience the beautiful open plains and fresh air. They were not prisoners, there problem was the trains were so full of happy soviet tourists return tickets were hard to come by.
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Originally posted by lazs2
but you believe it tho right kgb?
You do believe that it was all hidden from you "for your own good" all these years right?
lazs
Yes sir i do.
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Originally posted by KgB
Yes sir i do.
If you believe that, I've got beach fron property to sell you in Montana
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Source?
My source says 2 million jailed (NOT FOR POLITICAL PURPOSES LIKE STALIN) for a population of 300 million.
Nope. I think Uncle Joe has us beat there Boroda.:)
Peasant dead: 1930-37 11,000,000
Arrested in this period dying in camps later 3,500,000
Total 14,500,000
Of these:
Dead as a result of dekulakization 6,500,000
Dead in the Kazakh catastrophe 1,000,000
Dead in the 1932-33 famine: 7,000,000
Famine in Ukraine 5,000,000
Famine in the North Caucasus 1,000,000
Famine elsewhere 1,000,000
Look at the bright side, USSR beat USA in SOMETHING! ;)
I wonder how anyone is still living here and who fought in a War.
Read Zemskov's works, I posted the numbers here several times.
Total number of prisoners in 1940 was a little over one million per 180 million population. People imprisoned for political crimes were a small minority.
In fact in 1999 "democratic" Russian Federation had more people in prisons and camps per 100,000 population then USSR did in 1940. And the US of A had even more. I hope you see why I prefer totalitarianism to Western-style "democracy" that we try to build now?...
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Originally posted by Boroda
Total number of prisoners in 1940 was a little over one million per 180 million population. People imprisoned for political crimes were a small minority.
That makes sense, because they were executed rather than jailed
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Originally posted by C(Sea)Bass
If you believe that, I've got beach fron property to sell you in Montana
My dear not-so-distant (íåäàë¸êèé) friend, is it supposed to be a joke?
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ANYWAY...
The explosion at Nedelin was a test of a rocket about the same size as an American Saturn V, right?
I noticed' on the U-tube videos' provided, that instead of building the 1st stage with a fewer number of larger motors, like the Saturn V's 5 F-1 engines, They used thirty (30!) smaller ones. That made something that was already very complicated, even more so-and since all 4 test vehicles' didnt' make it (They all blew up in some way or another) I'd have to say that is why It's better to follow the K.I.S.S. method.
K.I.S.S. being Keep It Simple, Stupid.
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Originally posted by C(Sea)Bass
That makes sense, because they were executed rather than jailed
Rip posted only a number of victims that he thinks were dead. Add "executed" according to your opinion and quote Solzhenitsyn plus 27 millions killed in a War and you'll have only me as a survivor here. Like Stalin, Molotov and Boroda.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
ANYWAY...
The explosion at Nedelin was a test of a rocket about the same size as an American Saturn V, right?
I noticed' on the U-tube videos' provided, that instead of building the 1st stage with a fewer number of larger motors, like the Saturn V's 5 F-1 engines, They used thirty (30!) smaller ones. That made something that was already very complicated, even more so-and since all 4 test vehicles' didnt' make it (They all blew up in some way or another) I'd have to say that is why It's better to follow the K.I.S.S. method.
K.I.S.S. being Keep It Simple, Stupid.
Nedelin died in an explosion of an ICBM smaller then R-7, something like a Redstone or Atlas.
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Actually is was the R-16.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Rip posted only a number of victims that he thinks were dead. Add "executed" according to your opinion and quote Solzhenitsyn plus 27 millions killed in a War and you'll have only me as a survivor here. Like Stalin, Molotov and Boroda.
Hey, I can pull the blinders off a horse, but I can't make them look. (Old Midwest saying about having your head in the sand)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Hey, I can pull the blinders off a horse, but I can't make them look. (Old Midwest saying about having your head in the sand)
Rip, you said obvious nonsense, even Solzhenitsyn (whom you probably quote) admitted that his numbers were just a figment of imagination.
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Hehe, truth is borodas enemy. That's why he hate's journalists.
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boroda.. about the numbers...
It begs the question...
If you (and KGB) believe that unpleasant information should be kept from you for your own good... Why do you believe them when they say there were no gulags and that America is much more a gulag than russia ever was?
Is it a given that if you support having things kept from you that you then believe everything they tell you?
So far as I can see.. the soviet union was a terrorist organization. I could not live there. I would be imprisoned and probly executed. I doubt they would like my political individualist stance. I doubt they would like me traveling and building hot rods and collecting and shooting firearms. I don't think they would allow me to speak freely.
Life would not be worth living except to try to figure out a way to get out of your country or destroy it from within.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
boroda.. about the numbers...
It begs the question...
If you (and KGB) believe that unpleasant information should be kept from you for your own good... .
lazs
Your question was -"but you believe it tho right kgb?
You do believe that it was all hidden from you "for your own good" all these years right?"
i said -"yes sir i do"
Meaning that i do believe that it was hidden from us.Did i miss anything?
And for future reference.
I agree with you that Communism is bad,USSR is evil,God bless USA and blah-blah-blah,i already know it.
Keep me out of your arguments with Boroda plz.He likes it there in Russia,i don't.
Thanks.
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Think you guys need to watch the BBC's Space Race. It was done as a tag team project between BBC and Russia's Channel 1.
This is the scene you are looking for on the disaster.
Suggest you watch the entire episode though.
http://www.youtube.com/v/h5frXEzqhKs&rel=1
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kgb.. sorry.. not sure I get you. I asked if you believed that the information was hidden from you for your own good and you said yes.
I took that to mean that you felt you were better off (for your own good) if information was hidden from you.
In borodas case.. I think he goes a step further.. On the one hand.. he feels that free speech is evil causes starvation and that it is for your own good that unpleasant things are kept from you but on the other hand.. he will believe SOME information he is given even to the point of believing the reduction in evil (gulags) but realizing that it was, and is.. common practice for the soviets to openly lie about such things. (for your own good)
It begs the question boroda.. how do you know when they are telling the truth and when they are hiding it from you for your own good?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
So far as I can see.. the soviet union was a terrorist organization. I could not live there. I would be imprisoned and probly executed. I doubt they would like my political individualist stance. I doubt they would like me traveling and building hot rods and collecting and shooting firearms. I don't think they would allow me to speak freely.
Life would not be worth living except to try to figure out a way to get out of your country or destroy it from within.
Then US of A is... I don't know what.
Lazs, you never tried to live in Soviet system, that's all. As for collecting a shooting firearms - you needed to live in Stalin's times, they were taken away from the people by "democratic" Nikita. Traveling? - nothing was impossible, if you didn't work in defense. Speak freely?! You could speak and be _heard_, not like in a "free world" where a dog barks and wind blows it away.
Did you read what I posted?
What I meant was: there was no media "sensation", no one was screaming "oh oh horror horror Nedelin was burnt alive!!!". I knew the story when I was a kid, but it wasn't a subject of entertainment media.
I need a glass of something now, one minute pls...
OK, got some cranberry stuff from the fridge, I need to drink it - it's there for maybe 6 months, now it's time. You can find interesting things in our fridge at work.
So, do you copy? Did I express it so you understood what I mean?
Now about anthrax story. Such things should definitely be kept from public, I mean from nation-wide media. People who are well... "influenced" (?) by a disaster get all possible treatment and information from local civilian defense. We are not going to spread panic, are we? A good example: last year some media spread information about a malfunction at Balakovo nuclear power station near Saratov. Next one in chain already said about radiation leak, while they didn't even stop generators there, next one got an "expert" who looked at the personal medikit contents when he was in the Army and remembered Potassium Iodide as an "anti-radiation" pill, so this TV station advised people to take Iodine-containing medicines. "Iodine", a 5% Iodine solution in ethanol (tincture of Iodine) is still widely used here to disinfect small wounds, so people started drinking it, that caused several hundred people hospitalized with Iodine poisoning. This is what I call a "freedom of press" and what I am against.
Did you read it? Was I clear enough this time? Anyway - your health, this cranberry liqueur is better then I thought it is ;)
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Originally posted by KgB
And for future reference.
I agree with you that Communism is bad,USSR is evil,God bless USA and blah-blah-blah,i already know it.
Keep me out of your arguments with Boroda plz.He likes it there in Russia,i don't.
Thanks.
I don't like it here, there or everywhere.
Any society has it's pros and cons.
If we could combine Soviet medical care and education with US mobility, Australian relaxed attitude and total freedom that we have now here in Russian Federation - I think I still couldn't be satisfied.
Communism isn't bad. It's not good either. USSR wasn't evil, that's for sure, it was just another system of oppressing the individuality as any other state and government. Just different. God bless USA, that' for sure, but I don;t believe in god, sorry, that's why I don't like the new "lyrics" to Russian national anthem. I don't like Putin, I don;t like his official "ancestor", I don't like Western "democracy", I don't like when I have to chose between two brands of ****, someone, give me another Globe!
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Eh?
Can you guys just turn ON your brain instead of loudly quoting your Western-fundamentalistic slogans?!
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There's red all over your post.
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Originally posted by moot
There's red all over your post.
Listen please.
I don't care about what you think.
What surprises me is that even people like Lazs keep saying slogans instead of reading what I post.
Sad.
I make you feel but I can't make you think (c) Jethro Tull, 1972, "Thick as a brick".
Maxwell's demon between so-called "free world" and USSR.
Now tell me who have been behind the "Iron curtain".
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I wonder how many school shootings would there be if they were not reported.... Seems like a routine weekly event now days...
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Originally posted by Russian
I wonder how many school shootings would there be if they were not reported.... Seems like a routine weekly event now days...
Exactly.
Entertainment my ass!!! "Another 25 people shot!" - and the whole nation holds it's breath. What for!? Can anyone explain it to me!? What's the purpose of media coverage in such cases?
Media should be controlled, and controlled by one intelligent force.
Any "competition" in this case will lead to escalation of violence and terror.
Do you prefer to be "well informed" about anthrax and Brittney Spears divorce or just mind your own life?
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Just saying Boroda.. You're completely biased yourself.
My dad's been to the USSR, worked there and made a lot of friends.. And thought it was worse than just about anywhere else he'd been, and he'd been nearly everywhere.
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Originally posted by moot
..., and he'd been nearly everywhere.
had he been to :
Reno, Chicago, Fargo, Minnesota
Buffalo, Toronto, Winslow, Sarasota
Wichita, Tulsa, Ottawa, Oklahoma
Tampa, Panama, Mattawa, LaPaloma
Bangor, Baltimore, Salvador, Amarillo
Tocapillo, Barranquilla, and Padilla?
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About a third or quarter of those.. What he said was:
Alors chu r'parti
Sur Québec Air
Transworld, Nord-East, Eastern, Western
Puis Pan-American
Mais ché pu où chu rendu
J'ai été
Au sud du sud au soleil bleu blanc rouge
Les palmiers et les cocotiers glacés
Dans les pôles aux esquimaux bronzés
Qui tricotent des ceintures fléchés farcies
Et toujours ma Sophie qui venait de partir
...
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boroda.. I only repeat what you say and what you say... is abhorent and flawed.
Perhaps in person you could convince me that I would be happier in soviet US than in a democratic US. I really doubt it.
Your point is that some reporters are irresponsible as is russians.
I also believe that if the press had made the school shooters out to be wimpy losers with hidden gay tendencies.. it would stop the shootings.
the trick is.. who deciedes what is the "right thing" for you to hear? You? the government? some committee?
Do you even see a problem in this logic? who decides? Who do you place so much faith in that you feel he has the right to keep information from you?
Oh wait.. some people get all the information.. I take it you feel you should be one of those? that it is just the idiots and little people who need protecting from the world?
lazs
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Lazs, WWWTP you'll be invited as a government adviser.
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dunno boroda.. don't really want any part of any government you would be happy with. I have a feeling that your governments idea of "convincing me" and mine would be quite different.
It's fun to talk to you about but I want no part of you having any sort of power over my life and my life choices.
lazs
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Lazs, I am against any form of government myself. It's a tool of oppressing a personality.
My point is that media is much more evil then government. Look at Yugoslavia bombings in 1999, you guys got so brainwashed that you unanimously supported mass murders. Or look at Iraq. In this case media was used by govt, that made it really frightening.
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Boroda I think you should try the tv-series 'Big Brother' you might find yourself right at home at the set. You'd probably win money. A win-win situation no?
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Lunacy, I knoweth your name.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Boroda I think you should try the tv-series 'Big Brother' you might find yourself right at home at the set. You'd probably win money. A win-win situation no?
We had a "big brother" clone on Russian TV. And we still have some silly shows like that, one was sold to Sony so prepare for more **** on TV.
I mostly watch local news and educational/historical programs, but every year it's getting harder and harder. Now I need a bucket for vomit watching 90% of what is on Russian TV.
One interesting fact: there was no advertisement on Soviet TV. I mean - no commercials at all. One more reason for nostalgy.
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why would you need commercials, there was nothing to buy.
USSR commercial," bread will be available on Tuesday, get in line now"
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Originally posted by john9001
why would you need commercials, there was nothing to buy.
USSR commercial," bread will be available on Tuesday, get in line now"
You confusing USSR with Africa.
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Originally posted by Boroda
One simple example: no terror acts media coverage -> no environment for spreading terror -> no terrorism.
There was no terrorism in USSR.
The government was the terror.
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One simple example: no terror acts media coverage -> no environment for spreading terror -> no terrorism.
Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.
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Ignorance is Strength.
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Not listed in English Wikipedia for some reason
1977,8 January.Explosion in Moscow subway.Terrorists were USSR citizens from Yerevan,Armenia.Stepanyan,Bagdasaryan and Zatikyan.(So called Zatikyan's group).All three were members of illegal nationalistic party "Dashnaktsutyn"
Dashnaktsytyn is oldest Armenian party created in 1890.
In 1994 it became legal again.
That attack was against Communistic regime.
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boroda.. I think I am getting what you are saying now.. you believe that the media is so evil that we need the government (which you think is evil) to suppress it (for our own good).
I would just as soon let the media run wild. It they print a lie and it harms people then they need to be sued. Get sued enough and you are out of the game. I think it works well here and in western countries..
Not perfect but certainly better than government censorship.
You can take iraq for instance since you mentioned it.. all the good news is pretty much not reported.. only bad news comes from our left leaning news groups...People are getting sick of the news here.. they are simply tuning out.. newspapers are closing or cutting back. I don't watch the news.. thank god for the internet.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I would just as soon let the media run wild. It they print a lie and it harms people then they need to be sued. Get sued enough and you are out of the game. I think it works well here and in western countries..
Not perfect but certainly better than government censorship.
Masses are uneducated and tend to believe media. In a case I posted above (Balakovo power station) - they don't have anything to be sued for.
My point is that govt control is better then no control at all.
Look, here we have a great experience of fighting govt, but only in peace-time, in emergency - it saved us from becoming extinct many times. We are a "surviving nation".
KGB, I mentioned that Armenian terror act in many previous posts, it's an exclusion that proves the rule (èñêëþ÷åíèå ïîäòâåðæäàåò ïðàâèëî, did I translate it correctly?). That explosion was reported on Pravda's front page, but there was media hype about it.
OTOH the escalator breakdown at Aviamotornaya station in Msk was reported on Voice of America and raised rumors of hundreds people killed, while there was no one dead. Same thing at Kirovskiy Zavod in Leningrad - it was closed for a couple of months in 1980 IIRC, people repeated horror stories they heard on short-wave radio.