Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ZetaNine on February 12, 2008, 09:07:58 AM
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Did not see this posted...and I must say that after the Iran speed boat incident...it is getting pretty damn embarrassing. The navy needs to re-address their rules of engagment.....I'm getting tired of looking like punks...and our enemies knowing we will continue to do so.
No "Official Protests" here.....Send out memos to all heads of state.... bring any vehicle closer that 1 mile anywhere near a us warship...and the plane/boat/sub gets destroyed after one warning.
= = = =
US Navy fighter jets were scrambled to shadow and intercept a Russian bomber which buzzed and circled over an American aircraft carrier over the weekend in a Top Gun-style incident in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
One Russian Tupolev 95 buzzed the USS Nimitz twice on Saturday, the Associated Press has reported an anonymous source as saying.
The plane flew over the carrier at an altitude of just 600m, similar to the "fly-bys" depicted in the Tom Cruise film. A second Russian bomber circled nearby.
The Russians had been tracked since they took off from Ukrainka and were monitored as they broke off from the rest of their formation and flew into Japanese air space.
The two Tupolevs continued on a course towards the Nimitz and a US guided missile cruiser, USS Princeton.
Four F/A-18 fighter planes were sent to intercept them when they breached an 800km perimeter. Two stayed with the Tupolev circling at altitude about 80km from the Nimitz while two followed the other bomber as it approached the carrier.
The US fighters trailed the Tuoplev as it buzzed the Nimitz. No words were exchanged between the US and Russian pilots throughout the entire incident.
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Russki kamikazie training mission.
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Nothing new, Bears used to buzz carriers all the time back in the old days. On another board, someone noted that the Argentinians used to do touch & goes on US carriers in their Entenards for fun, and I've seen video of russian planes buzzing US ships too.
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I was waiting for someone to say "nothing new"...but actually....alot is new. It's a different world now....we're in a protracted global war.....and we're being "tested" by too many lately....and quite frankly...I'm sick of watching us whipe spit off our faces from it all.
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
I was waiting for someone to say "nothing new"...but actually....alot is new. It's a different world now....we're in a protracted global war.....and we're being "tested" by too many lately....and quite frankly...I'm sick of watching us whipe spit off our faces from it all.
LOL :aok :noid
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
I was waiting for someone to say "nothing new"...but actually....alot is new. It's a different world now....we're in a protracted global war.....and we're being "tested" by too many lately....and quite frankly...I'm sick of watching us whipe spit off our faces from it all.
Ya i agree, If we just shoot them down when they get close they will learn not to make us look bad.
To bad they dont have tasers for airplanes.
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No need to shoot down Russian planes. If they attack we will know who is responsible and retaliate accordingly. The situation is a bit different when it comes to unknown terrorist threats.
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perhaps the devil is in the details...but flying 600m over one of our carriers in war time is "attacking" to me.
I guess I'd just like our President to make that known.
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And not so many days ago a norwegian P3 buzzed a russian aircraft carrier in the north sea.
We are not at war with russia so they didnt shoot it down.
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Perhaps that's why none of us would be good ship commanders. I would have assumed that hostile positioning was hostile intent.
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
perhaps the devil is in the details...but flying 600m over one of our carriers in war time is "attacking" to me.
I guess I'd just like our President to make that known.
Congress declared war on somebody. I missed the announcement, again.
wrngway
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Perhaps that's why none of us would be good ship commanders. I would have assumed that hostile positioning was hostile intent.
Nope the ship commanders were 100% correct in their action (or lack of action)
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Goodness, a lot of posturing! The ship commanders know their jobs, and they know how ridiculously stupid it would be to let the russians provoke them into firing first. There's a lot of "shoot first, think never" armchair admirals here, that's for sure.
I'm curious about the 'directly overhead' aspect of the report, during the cold war these 'buzz jobs' would usually be just off to one side or the other. If the reporting is accurate (and I question this), then this would represent a change, but I'm pretty skeptical.
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
The plane flew over the carrier at an altitude of just 600m, similar to the "fly-bys" depicted in the Tom Cruise film.
A flyby at 2000 ft is similar to the one depicted in Top Gun? :rofl Is that a real news report quoted?
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Here's a post from another board on the subject that may be of interest:
Bear interceptions by US fighters used to be pretty routine in the cold war days, and it sounds like they will be again. I've seen lots of flights over Navy ships, there is always one fighter in close and one well back in trail. A cousin of mine did several as an Air Guard pilot. There are well understood rules of engagement that both sides play by.
Normal interception is by two fighters. One holds back a couple of miles in trail of the bear, the other moves up close to positively identify him. My cousin told me on his first intercept he was the in close guy. As he moved up into the 5 o'clock position on the Bear the bombers tail guns tracked him.
He moved in close enough to see the gunner's eyes, then transmitted to the guy in trail (in the clear on guard) "I have identified him, and he is hostile". At that point the guy in trail responded "Roger, I'm hot" and the trail guy "illuminated" the bomber on his radar. Immediately the tail guns on the bomber went straight up in the air, and everyone relaxed.
Now, if that Bear over the Nimitz had cracked open his bomb bay doors, I'm willing to bet that a slammer or two would have been in the air in about a heartbeat.
http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=39324&page=2
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Mathias Rust landing in Red Square near Kremlin in "87 comes in my mind. This guy is still my hero, i was in colege at that time in Romania, and our communists dictator didn;t talk about it in news, we got the news from Voice of America, Free Europe radio , wich were also ilegal to listen and jamed that time, but was exciting news
(http://englishrussia.com/images/rust.jpg)
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Originally posted by ghi
(http://englishrussia.com/images/rust.jpg)
Why does it look like he has the silhouette of a Monolith-class dropship from BattleTech on his v-stab...
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
I was waiting for someone to say "nothing new"...but actually....alot is new. It's a different world now....we're in a protracted global war.....and we're being "tested" by too many lately....and quite frankly...I'm sick of watching us whipe spit off our faces from it all.
From a country itching to get back into an arms race with the US, I think shooting down a couple planes is the last thing we need to do.
Unless you're looking for a draft, Marshal law, more war taxes and WWIII.
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Originally posted by AWwrgwy
Congress declared war on somebody. I missed the announcement, again.
wrngway
what you missed my friend...was 911. THAT is when war was declared on us...congress notwithstanding....
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Originally posted by Tattered
From a country itching to get back into an arms race with the US, I think shooting down a couple planes is the last thing we need to do.
Unless you're looking for a draft, Marshal law, more war taxes and WWIII.
this is sad.
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
what you missed my friend...was 911. THAT is when war was declared on us...congress notwithstanding....
:rofl
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ps- I actually AM for a military draft.....but not as it was in the past.
I'm for a mandatory "youth corp" similar to Roosevelt's plan...with all boys and girls serving their country for two years right out of high school...non militarily...working in parks, hospitals, guarding borders, building low income homes, roads and highways, national infrastructure, airports, community service, police support, etc....etc....
if a military draft is needed...all these kids will have already gone through boot camp....and all boys who can physically serve, are then placed in the draft lottery.
if they serve in the youth core or the military for 4 years.......college is free.
personally........I'm stunned there was no draft after 911........but we're not the strong willed country we were back in 1941, are we?
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It wasn't as spectacular as Su-24s passing over USS Kittyhawk in a Sea of Japan back in 2000. At that time US CV group totally failed to intercept Russian planes and the crew literally panicked.
October, 17th and November, 9th, 2000.
Two Su-24MR recon planes, covered by Su-27 fighters. Pilots were awarded with Hero of Russia medals. They flew over an unprepared flight-deck, American crew started to cut fuel lines thinking they are under real attack.
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
what you missed my friend...was 911. THAT is when war was declared on us...congress notwithstanding....
And that has... precisely... WHAT to do with Russian bombers doing the same thing they've been doing for the last 6 decades?
You were a Giuliani supporter, weren't you?
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Zetanine, how is it paid for?
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
ps- I actually AM for a military draft.....but not as it was in the past.
I'm for a mandatory "youth corp" similar to Roosevelt's plan...with all boys and girls serving their country for two years right out of high school...non militarily...working in parks, hospitals, guarding borders, building low income homes, roads and highways, national infrastructure, airports, community service, police support, etc....etc....
if a military draft is needed...all these kids will have already gone through boot camp....and all boys who can physically serve, are then placed in the draft lottery.
if they serve in the youth core or the military for 4 years.......college is free.
personally........I'm stunned there was no draft after 911........but we're not the strong willed country we were back in 1941, are we?
And I'm 100% against any draft of any sort. At any age. I don't want my children being programmed to believe in anything. They'll find it on their own like I did.
Hey, I'm not insulting you at all, so please don't reply with an insult. Thank you.
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
ps- I actually AM for a military draft.....but not as it was in the past.
I'm for a mandatory "youth corp" similar to Roosevelt's plan...with all boys and girls serving their country for two years right out of high school...non militarily...working in parks, hospitals, guarding borders, building low income homes, roads and highways, national infrastructure, airports, community service, police support, etc....etc....
if a military draft is needed...all these kids will have already gone through boot camp....and all boys who can physically serve, are then placed in the draft lottery.
if they serve in the youth core or the military for 4 years.......college is free.
personally........I'm stunned there was no draft after 911........but we're not the strong willed country we were back in 1941, are we?
You were stunned that there was no draft after 911 for the same reason that you think Roosevelt was a good president.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
......you think Roosevelt was a good president.
link please?
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I think FDR was a good prez (better than the recent ones anyhoo), and I wasn't surprised there was no draft, nor do I think there ever will be again. In too many peoples minds, draft is equated with "Vietnam" and "endless wars". The backlash for its implimentation would be horrible, its bad enough when its just mentioned.
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Originally posted by Treize69
I think FDR was a good prez (better than the recent ones anyhoo), and I wasn't surprised there was no draft, nor do I think there ever will be again. In too many peoples minds, draft is equated with "Vietnam" and "endless wars". The backlash for its implimentation would be horrible, its bad enough when its just mentioned.
FDR was the tool with which the USA was ultimately ruined. The US had been placed on the road to it by previous presidents, FDR just gave it rocket boosters and guided it in.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Zetanine, how is it paid for?
local, state and federal government....as well as a hefty portion coming from private enterprise....as I see these kids working in construction and agriculture mostly. in some areas...they could replace overpaid federal workers (parks and rec as one example) other ideas....trade....hospitals get free labor....they provide healthcare to some.... a very grass roots system start up at first. not a massive bloated govt program.
bottom line...it would have to slowly implimented over a decade....perhaps state-by state....not a mass start-up....
bottm bottom line......... many nations already do this.
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I think our country has gotten soft.........and they did it at a time we need to pull together more than ever.
those of you with the "not my kid" attitude are part of the problem. this is not viet nam folks. hippies in those days were right.... this time...we were attacked...and we need to hunt al queda everywhere.
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Originally posted by Pyro
A flyby at 2000 ft is similar to the one depicted in Top Gun? :rofl Is that a real news report quoted?
Pyro,
This is a very well documented incident. I’m surprised you don’t recognize it:
Maverick: Tower, this is Ghost rider requesting a flyby.
Air Boss Johnson: That's a negative Ghost rider, the pattern is full.
And..
Stinger: Maverick, you just did an incredibly brave thing. What you should have done was land your plane! you don't own that plane, the tax payers do! Son, your ego is writing checks your body can't cash. You've been busted, you lost your qualifications as section leader three times, put in hack twice by me, with a history of high speed passes over five air control towers, and one admiral's daughter!
Goose: Penny Benjamin?
[Maverick shrugs]
Stinger: And you *******, you're lucky to be here!
Goose: Thank you, sir.
Stinger: And let's not bull**** Maverick. Your family name ain't the best in the Navy. You need to be doing it better, and cleaner than the other guy. Now what is it with you?
Maverick: Just want to serve my country, be the best pilot in the Navy, sir.
Stinger: Don't screw around with me Maverick. You're a hell of an instinctive pilot. Maybe too good. I'd like to bust your butt but I can't. I got another problem here. I gotta send somebody from this squadron to Miramar. I gotta do something here, I still can believe it. I gotta give you your dream shot! I'm gonna send you up against the best. You two characters are going to Top Gun.
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
Russian Tupolev 95 buzzed the USS Nimitz twice on Saturday, the Associated Press has reported an anonymous source as saying.
The plane flew over the carrier at an altitude of just 600m, similar to the "fly-bys" depicted in the Tom Cruise film. A second Russian bomber circled nearby.
Meh the CV crew probably thought it was part of a 'warbirds' airshow "hey guys look at that old ww2 bomber"....
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
I think our country has gotten soft.........and they did it at a time we need to pull together more than ever.
those of you with the "not my kid" attitude are part of the problem. this is not viet nam folks. hippies in those days were right.... this time...we were attacked...and we need to hunt al queda everywhere.
You are my new favorite poster.
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(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6034/02ew6.jpg)
Oh no! Its WW3!!! Shoot'em down! Panic!1! :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Furious
You are my new favorite poster.
I don't think we need another village idiot.....we already have enough...
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
local, state and federal governmentTAXES ....as well as a hefty portion coming from private enterpriseTAXES ....as I see these kids working in construction and agriculture mostly. in some areas...they could replace overpaid federal workers (parks and rec as one example) other ideas....trade....hospitals get free labor....they provide healthcare to some....
I added a couple of clarifying notes in red. Ironically, you end with this:
Originally posted by ZetaNine
a very grass roots system start up at first. not a massive bloated govt program.
The funny thing is, you're describing exactly that, a massive government program (which, by its very nature, is guaranteed to be bloated), but then you wave your hands vaguely and say it's not bloated. The combination of optimism and naivety is formidable.
I think it's time for a refresher, but first a question. Do you know what TANSTAAFL means? Feel free to google it and write back with an analysis of how it might relate to your proposal.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I've misquoted your post and changed the topic
fixed.
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Aw, somebody discovered sarcasm! How cute!
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
fixed.
You know, for some reason, even after reading all of his posts'...It really only raises' one question, to me.
Why did Dago get PNG'd?
Because Z9 sounds' kinda like him.
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Originally posted by Russian
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6034/02ew6.jpg)
Oh no! Its WW3!!! Shoot'em down! Panic!1! :rolleyes:
I don't see anyone panicing in that pic. :D
That plane probably should be shot down just for being butt ugly though. :D
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Is it just me, or does that look like a fisherman in the pic?
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Originally posted by Boroda
It wasn't as spectacular as Su-24s passing over USS Kittyhawk in a Sea of Japan back in 2000. At that time US CV group totally failed to intercept Russian planes and the crew literally panicked.
October, 17th and November, 9th, 2000.
Two Su-24MR recon planes, covered by Su-27 fighters. Pilots were awarded with Hero of Russia medals. They flew over an unprepared flight-deck, American crew started to cut fuel lines thinking they are under real attack.
Wow, doesn't take much to be a hero in Russia these days does it?
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Originally posted by Treize69
Is it just me, or does that look like a fisherman in the pic?
looks more like "tower guy" from 2002.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
You know, for some reason, even after reading all of his posts'...It really only raises' one question, to me.
Why did Dago get PNG'd?
Because Z9 sounds' kinda like him.
I can assure you I am new here......and the Mod can feel free to confirm that.
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Originally posted by Trell
To bad they dont have tasers for airplanes.
I think BBS tasers would be better.
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Originally posted by Boroda
It wasn't as spectacular as Su-24s passing over USS Kittyhawk in a Sea of Japan back in 2000. At that time US CV group totally failed to intercept Russian planes and the crew literally panicked.
October, 17th and November, 9th, 2000.
Two Su-24MR recon planes, covered by Su-27 fighters. Pilots were awarded with Hero of Russia medals. They flew over an unprepared flight-deck, American crew started to cut fuel lines thinking they are under real attack.
Amusing...they hand out medals for buzzing an aircraft carrier of a country the Russian government was supposedly on friendly term with, at that time.:lol
Imagine the medals they'd get if they had actually done something important:huh
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Nilsen is correct. The West has buzzed USSR/Russian subs & surface craft and they have buzzed ours.
I do not believe it was an act of agression, but it does not seem all that smart.
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I think we stopped doing that 20 or 30 years ago........this stuff is on putin.
so everyone here is content to do nothing? Russian planes...Iranian boats....
complacency is more dangerous. I wonder what you'll say when 2500 american sailors are killed if and when we continue to stand down....whether from a boat, a plane, or a silkworm missile.
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Originally posted by Slash27
Wow, doesn't take much to be a hero in Russia these days does it?
LOL sneaking a "possible enemy" CV group and catching them with their pants off flying 100m over their flight deck using airplanes that may be used for sinking such vessels - that's awesome. I wonder if they went supersonic that low, to entertain their American colleagues :D
Back in the 50s in the same waters Americans shot down several Soviet MiG-15s (based on Vladivostok) who didn't even come that close to CV group, outnumbered and with a strict order not to open fire. That was quite easy, but the times changed.
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Originally posted by Russian
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6034/02ew6.jpg)
Oh no! Its WW3!!! Shoot'em down! Panic!1! :rolleyes:
Who would fly that old hunk-o-crap that low. I'd be afraid something would fall off and at that altitude, there ain't much glidin'.....
Entertaining thread tho....
:lol
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
I think we stopped doing that 20 or 30 years ago........this stuff is on putin.
so everyone here is content to do nothing? Russian planes...Iranian boats....
complacency is more dangerous. I wonder what you'll say when 2500 american sailors are killed if and when we continue to stand down....whether from a boat, a plane, or a silkworm missile.
Ya i agree, Shoot first and the hell with everyone else.
If we start now we will be the envy of the world.
A slogan for this "new" military" We travel to beautiful locations and kill them all....
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Originally posted by Boroda
It wasn't as spectacular as Su-24s passing over USS Kittyhawk in a Sea of Japan back in 2000. At that time US CV group totally failed to intercept Russian planes and the crew literally panicked.
October, 17th and November, 9th, 2000.
Two Su-24MR recon planes, covered by Su-27 fighters. Pilots were awarded with Hero of Russia medals. They flew over an unprepared flight-deck, American crew started to cut fuel lines thinking they are under real attack.
Where do you come up with this crap? The crew literally panicked? If they took it seious enough to make orders for cutting fuel lines, they would have taken it serious enough to engage the Russian aircraft with air defence weapons. Lay off the brake fluid and get some real booze.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
I think we stopped doing that 20 or 30 years ago........this stuff is on putin.
so everyone here is content to do nothing? Russian planes...Iranian boats....
You are tragically misinformed.
Try doing something about Russian planes in international airspace. So far your congressmen started screaming for revenge, guess what they'll get as an answer?...
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
fixed.
Where did I misquote you, Dago?
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Originally posted by ghi
Mathias Rust landing in Red Square near Kremlin in "87 comes in my mind. This guy is still my hero, i was in colege at that time in Romania, and our communists dictator didn;t talk about it in news, we got the news from Voice of America, Free Europe radio , wich were also ilegal to listen and jamed that time, but was exciting news
(http://englishrussia.com/images/rust.jpg)
"on ascension day we land in red square" atta boy mr rust and he is a hero of mine as well.
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Originally posted by Shifty
Where do you come up with this crap? The crew literally panicked? If they took it seious enough to make orders for cutting fuel lines, they would have taken it serious enough to engage the Russian aircraft with air defence weapons. Lay off the brake fluid and get some real booze.:rolleyes:
It seems to me that its you guys who need to get some real spirits. Drinking vodka on the rocks is on of the most stupid things I can imagine :D
Needless to say that your navy has a great history of completely failing air defense when under real attack and shooting down harmless passenger airliners just because someone got scared to death and crapped his pants. Should I elaborate?
Again: they discovered suddenly that Russian supersonic frontline-bombers fly right over their flight deck. They managed to launch their F-18s when Russian attack squad was already out of reach, and got another "Preved!" (wazzup?!) from Su-27s covering 24s.
Later someone sent a private e-mail to Kittyhawk website with pictures of the flight deck and some text in Russian that was never quoted by US Navy officials ;)
I bet this recent Tu-95 flyby was just fun for both sides. It's an old game, both sides know the rules quite well.
Another interesting POV from War Nerd:
http://exile.ru/articles/detail.php?ARTICLE_ID=15976&IBLOCK_ID=35
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Where did I misquote you, Dago?
is that an ethnic slur, sir? I happen to be Italian American and I am offended by that. please govern yourself accordingly.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Needless to say that your navy has a great history of completely failing air defense when under real attack and shooting down harmless passenger airliners just because someone got scared to death and crapped his pants. Should I elaborate?
Korean Air Lines Flight 007 anyone? ;)
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
is that an ethnic slur, sir? I happen to be Italian American and I am offended by that. please govern yourself accordingly.
Originally posted by ZetaNine
My Rant: Political Correctness
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Originally posted by Bronk
(http://photo.gangus.com/d/26764-2/zing.jpg)
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Originally posted by Bronk
congrats on getting it.
by the way...I'm not italian either.
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^^:rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
Korean Air Lines Flight 007 anyone? ;)
Can't you see a certain difference between shooting down a spy-plane that invaded our airspace flying over restricted military areas and blowing up an airliner in international airspace just because it went inside a SAM fire-range of a US vessel?...
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oh the humanity.....
psss.... I know it was #'d 007...... but that doesn't make it a spy plane.
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
oh the humanity.....
psss.... I know it was #'d 007...... but that doesn't make it a spy plane.
I advise you to read something on that sad event.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Can't you see a certain difference between shooting down a spy-plane that invaded our airspace flying over restricted military areas and blowing up an airliner in international airspace just because it went inside a SAM fire-range of a US vessel?...
ahhh yes, the spy plane version of the 747, that was sold to Korean Airlines.
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I'd be more than interested to..... any links?
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
I think we stopped doing that 20 or 30 years ago........this stuff is on putin.
so everyone here is content to do nothing? Russian planes...Iranian boats....
complacency is more dangerous. I wonder what you'll say when 2500 american sailors are killed if and when we continue to stand down....whether from a boat, a plane, or a silkworm missile.
Well......may be you see Russian planes because you close to Russian territory,and Iranian boats because you too close to Iran?:rofl
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
I'd be more than interested to..... any links?
This is very brief and doesn't men tion alot of things but is about as un-biased as i could find quickly.
http://aeroweb.lucia.it/rap/RAFAQ/KAL007.html
Short description: KAL 007 was a 747 flying from JFK to Korea with a stop at Anchorage. Due to pilot error it was about 135 miles off course flying past Russian airspace, meaning it either got very close to Russian Airspace or violated it briefly. An American RC135 recon plane had been in the area around the same time to watch missle tests that never ended up happening. The Russians scrambled fighters to intercept the plane, which they beleived was an RC135, but was really KAL 007.
The rest is really were controversy starts.
Russians say the aircraft was IDed as military, while others say it was IDed as civillian. Either way they fired missles, and the aircraft slowly spiraled into the sea. There were no survivors.
also:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19830901-0
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Originally posted by heythere
"on ascension day we land in red square" atta boy mr rust and he is a hero of mine as well.
It would have been a lot funnier if he landed on the anniversary of Operation Barbarossa or the seige of Moscow.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Boroda
It seems to me that its you guys who need to get some real spirits. Drinking vodka on the rocks is on of the most stupid things I can imagine :D
Needless to say that your navy has a great history of completely failing air defense when under real attack and shooting down harmless passenger airliners just because someone got scared to death and crapped his pants. Should I elaborate?
Why not elaborate on the Soviet Union's downing of two airliners in 1978 and 1983? Sounds like some little Ruskie crapped his pants back then too or had an intense hatred of KAL for losing his luggage.
Korean Air Lines Flight 902 (KAL902, KE902) shot down by Soviet fighters on April 20, 1978 near Murmansk. Forced to crash land on a frozen lake, two passengers killed.
Korean Air Lines Flight 007 (KAL 700) shot down by Soviet jet interceptors on September 1, 1983 just west of Sakhalin island. 269 passengers and crew, including US congressman Lawrence McDonald, were aboard KAL 007; there were no survivors.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It would have been a lot funnier if he landed on the anniversary of Operation Barbarossa or the seige of Moscow.
It couldn't be any funnier. He landed on an Aircraft Defense Corps Day.
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Originally posted by heythere
"on ascension day we land in red square" atta boy mr rust and he is a hero of mine as well.
1989, Rust stabbed a female co-worker who rejected him.
2001: Mathias Rust is convicted for stealing a cashmere pullover.
2004: Convicted of fraud, has to pay Ђ 1,500 for stolen goods.
A true hero.
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Originally posted by Boroda
It couldn't be any funnier. He landed on an Aircraft Defense Corps Day.
LOL The irony!
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
LOL The irony!
The consequences were not funny at all. PVO (Aircraft-defense corps) Koldunov, the best Yak ace, was fired and died a few months later. All the Defense Ministry leadership were forced to retire, including Marshall Sokolov, the Defense minister.
All this stuff looked like Gorby getting rid of old military leadership to replace them with members of his gang of traitors.
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Boroda, what evil trickery did NATO do to sneak his Cessna into red square? The might of the soviet union would have obviously prevented a lone civillian from penetrating the Rodina unassisted.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Why not elaborate on the Soviet Union's downing of two airliners in 1978 and 1983? Sounds like some little Ruskie crapped his pants back then too or had an intense hatred of KAL for losing his luggage.
Korean Air Lines Flight 902 (KAL902, KE902) shot down by Soviet fighters on April 20, 1978 near Murmansk. Forced to crash land on a frozen lake, two passengers killed.
Korean Air Lines Flight 007 (KAL 700) shot down by Soviet jet interceptors on September 1, 1983 just west of Sakhalin island. 269 passengers and crew, including US congressman Lawrence McDonald, were aboard KAL 007; there were no survivors.
ack-ack
You forgot the Iranian Airliner that the US Navy shot down.
...-Gixer
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We may have to bring back the B-36 program as a counter to the Rusian bomber threat.
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Originally posted by rogwar
We may have to bring back the B-36 program as a counter to the Rusian bomber threat.
What an awesome beast that was.
(http://www.visi.com/~jweeks/b36/b36_large.jpg)
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Better yet.
(http://www.stinsonflyer.com/consolac/b58-1.jpg)
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Boroda, what evil trickery did NATO do to sneak his Cessna into red square? The might of the soviet union would have obviously prevented a lone civillian from penetrating the Rodina unassisted.
No its just every move Gorbachev made was wrong,as if it were done on purpose.Cessna flown by hooligan mysteriously didn't get shot down,which gave him reason to get rid of old military leadership.
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Originally posted by Gixer
You forgot the Iranian Airliner that the US Navy shot down.
You forgot to read the rest of the thread.
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Originally posted by KgB
No its just every move Gorbachev made was wrong,as if it were done on purpose.Cessna flown by hooligan mysteriously didn't get shot down,which gave him reason to get rid of old military leadership.
KgB: A slight logical flaw in your reasoning, the people who would have made the decision to allow the Cessna in are the ones who got sacked. If this had been a plot by Gorbachev to get rid of those people, why would they participate?
Can we expect further insight of this caliber in the future?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Back in the 50s in the same waters Americans shot down several Soviet MiG-15s (based on Vladivostok) who didn't even come that close to CV group, outnumbered and with a strict order not to open fire. That was quite easy, but the times changed.
Got your facts a bit mixed up there chum.... The after action reports are available online.
This incident took place on November 18, 1952 when 7 MiG-15s sortied out of Vladivostok and headed straight to the USS Oriskany. The MiGs attacked two F9F-5 Panthers detailed to intercept and identify the incoming aircraft with a 35,000 foot altitude advantage. A third F9F joined the engagement later. 2 MiG-15s were confirmed destroyed, two others damaged. The Naval Reservists flying the Iron Works Panthers returned safely to their ship.
You can find Oriskany's Action report dated from 28 October thru 22 November here. (http://www.history.navy.mil/a-korea/cva34a-52.pdf)
You can read the Air Group action report (CVG-102) for the same time period here. (http://www.history.navy.mil/a-korea/cvg102-28oct-22nov52.pdf)
Finally, you can read a detailed description of the incident based upon pilot interviews and reports here. (http://home.att.net/~historyworld/VF-781.html) This is on one of my websites. I wrote the piece back in 1999 and placed a condensed version on the website in January of 2001.
For even greater detail, see the Summer/Fall 2001 Edition of Ghost Wings magazine, which includes an in-depth interview with one of the Pilots (Williams). I provided much of the background research and a portion of the photos.
There is also a transcript of the radio conversations between the F9F pilots and the Oriskany. I have a copy. I also have stills taken from the gun camera film from LTjg Rowlands' F9F.
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/Williams.jpg)
Stan Stokes' painting of the engagement... F9F #106 was Royce Williams' fighter.
The facts are these:
7 MiG-15s flying at 50,000 feet arrived over two F9F-5 flying at 15,000 feet. They split into two sections and attacked, firing on the F9F's. The two Panthers turned into the attack, reversed on the MiGs and shot down 1 and damaged two others (initially credited as one damaged, later review of films showed two different MiGs hit, thus the one was later changed to two).
Meanwhile a third F9F arrived and LTjg John Middleton promptly shot down another MiG, which was observed to crash into the sea, but the pilot did manage to eject. Later, the Soviets conducted an extensive search for the two downed MiG pilots.
So Boroda, what documents do you have to back your propaganda? Any pilot interviews (post Soviet)? I suspect that all you have is what the Soviets stated. Their poor unsuspecting pilots were set upon by vicious horde of American Navy pirates flying without regard for international law... :O
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
OWNAGE
My regards,
Widewing
I do so love seeing someone get thoroughly picked apart....very nice work Widewing:aok
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"To bad they dont have tasers for airplanes."
Taser for Aircraft and ship: E.M.P.
I am a Cold War Vet on the USS Saratoga during time when we had Soviet Bombers come close to our ship. That part is not new but when is new is the attitude the ex-kgb president is throwing out to the world. Face it, the russians, not all of them, have a sour taste in their mouth because they lost the Cold War.
The Russian military is seriously under funded and in need of repairs. These bombers are probably the only ones they were able to fix after weapons sales they have done all over the world including to china.
We just need to be alert on what is going on with the world.
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Widewing,
Ever wonder about information on the battles,campaigns,wars that were lost? As history is always written by the victors.
The battle you outlined was a win for blue team (so to speak) so there is information,history channel and even paintings. But if a battle is lost it's often hard to find information if at all. Even to the degree you might have to start digging through government archives for facts 50 years later.
Very few publications make it from those that lost a battle,campaign,war. Whether they be Russian,German,Japanese or American. And all sides are quick to post victories over losses and all sides claim a propergander victory if and when they can.
...-Gixer
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This thread inspires me to wit: The seat of communism changed hands in 1989 with Gorbachev the holder of supreme global communist central power at the time. Russia is now the old worn out corpse, China the new seat of global communism. An economic powerhouse looking to surpass the West and control the world.
China now holds the United States hostage economically and has drawn most of the common manufacturing base away from the western world, thanks to the greed of capitalism. Couple this with the theft of technical military knowledge mostly done by greedy traitors and Chinese patriots dressed in United States citizenship. We are killing ourselves slowly. We are watching it happen, shaking our heads and doing nothing. Now we find ourselves the central target of radical Islam, spending ourselves into oblivion to fight these radicals under the blanket of self defense.....
I sometimes wonder if the transfer of communist power to China, our loss of strategic technical knowledge, and our entanglements with backwards 14th century Islamic thought is an intentional design foisted on us by those who want control of the globe at our expense. The Chinese Communists supported by the old soviet guard!
All I have to say is keep the nuclear war fighting capacity fully capable, insulated from pre-emptive attack, and updated with the best war plans imaginable. And be prepared to use these assets when the time comes.
Everyone burn in hell :confused:
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"Couple this with the theft of technical military knowledge mostly done by greedy traitors and Chinese patriots dressed in United States citizenship."
Not only theft but I like to remind everyone, especially PRO-clinton, that china's missile technology was seriously boosted when billie clinton "shared" our military secrets to china.
Results, they now can destroy satellites. Are able to hit the west coast with nukes (Hit berkeley first please).
What next people? Are we that lazy to allow our so called leaders to pass on our military secrets in the name of humanity? To make everyone equal??
We should be concerned about terrorist but not close our eyes to what is going on with countries like china.
The Nation is already under a major invasion from the south who think they own the southwest.
As Americans we need to stop the madness.
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Originally posted by Boroda
It wasn't as spectacular as Su-24s passing over USS Kittyhawk in a Sea of Japan back in 2000. At that time US CV group totally failed to intercept Russian planes and the crew literally panicked.
October, 17th and November, 9th, 2000.
Two Su-24MR recon planes, covered by Su-27 fighters. Pilots were awarded with Hero of Russia medals. They flew over an unprepared flight-deck, American crew started to cut fuel lines thinking they are under real attack.
I fail to see why you relish this. I have a best friend who was on that ship when it happened. If we would have wanted to return the aggression, trust me, we could have.
Bolshevik Tamer (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-15.htm)
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Originally posted by Gixer
Widewing,
Ever wonder about information on the battles,campaigns,wars that were lost? As history is always written by the victors.
The battle you outlined was a win for blue team (so to speak) so there is information,history channel and even paintings. But if a battle is lost it's often hard to find information if at all. Even to the degree you might have to start digging through government archives for facts 50 years later.
Very few publications make it from those that lost a battle,campaign,war. Whether they be Russian,German,Japanese or American. And all sides are quick to post victories over losses and all sides claim a propergander victory if and when they can.
...-Gixer
I think gun cams and audio transcripts kinda shoot you down there gixer.
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Boroda got pwned by Widewing. :D
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Originally posted by Rollins
I fail to see why you relish this. I have a best friend who was on that ship when it happened. If we would have wanted to return the aggression, trust me, we could have.
Bolshevik Tamer (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-15.htm)
I fail to see why he relishes that as well. I mean it's not like those recon planes caused any damage or sank the Kittyhawk.
High speed flybys are just another stupid game that militaries play on each other and sooner or later someone is gonna lose an eye! ;)
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Originally posted by Widewing
I also have stills taken from the gun camera film from LTjg Rowlands' F9F.
Youch :lol Let's see what the answer to that one is...
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The atmosphere above a US navy carrier is not automatically american airspace. I can't see what the Russians did wrong. I can see what the americans did wrong and why this is embarrassing.
The correct response from the carrier should have been to launch fighter and intercept the incoming planes BEFORE they buzz the carrier. Escort them 1 mile from behind, maintaining a constant radar lock to make the warnings constantly buzz in the bomber's cockpit. This is how you show what you "could have done".
These are the rules of the game.
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
ps- I actually AM for a military draft.....but not as it was in the past.
Where are you deployed currently ?
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Originally posted by bozon
The atmosphere above a US navy carrier is not automatically american airspace. I can't see what the Russians did wrong. I can see what the americans did wrong and why this is embarrassing.
The correct response from the carrier should have been to launch fighter and intercept the incoming planes BEFORE they buzz the carrier. Escort them 1 mile from behind, maintaining a constant radar lock to make the warnings constantly buzz in the bomber's cockpit. This is how you show what you "could have done".
These are the rules of the game.
Thats what they did. If you read the article it says the bomber was followed by two F/A-18s.
I hate to bust some of you guys bubbles, but, China is NOT communist. They are no more socialized than Sweden, or Germany.
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Originally posted by Treize69
Is it just me, or does that look like a fisherman in the pic?
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6034/02ew6.jpg)
No thats Nisen.
You just dont recognise him with his back to the camera and not hamming it up
:D
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Originally posted by Widewing
So Boroda, what documents do you have to back your propaganda? Any pilot interviews (post Soviet)? I suspect that all you have is what the Soviets stated. Their poor unsuspecting pilots were set upon by vicious horde of American Navy pirates flying without regard for international law... :O
Nice. Guncams and radio-talks only prove that US planes shot down two Soviet planes in international waters.
MiGs got intercepted by Panthers and "blue" side attacked first, it's quite obvious, Soviet pilots couldn't even return fire - they they were not allowed to use their weapons against Americans.
Now maybe you'll tell me an American POV on a Sukhaya Rechka airfield attack? Maybe it will be like "evil Soviet airfield attacked harmless US planes and got bombed and strafed in self-defense"?
Soviet side never mentioned both encounters in official propaganda, all sources on Korean war and following conflicts in Far East was de-classified in early 90s, when it wasn't used for propaganda purposes for obvious reasons.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Soviet side never mentioned both encounters in official propaganda,
Didn't someone just mention something about the losing side not liking to mention things?
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Originally posted by C(Sea)Bass
Didn't someone just mention something about the losing side not liking to mention things?
Relax, American invaders successfully shot down at the same time were also never mentioned.
Like the first combat use of S-75 SAM: an RB-47 was shot down over China, and AFAIK it's still listed as "missing in action for unknown reasons" by blue side.
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Originally posted by Yeager
This thread inspires me to wit: The seat of communism changed hands in 1989 with Gorbachev the holder of supreme global communist central power at the time. Russia is now the old worn out corpse, China the new seat of global communism. An economic powerhouse looking to surpass the West and control the world.
China now holds the United States hostage economically and has drawn most of the common manufacturing base away from the western world, thanks to the greed of capitalism. Couple this with the theft of technical military knowledge mostly done by greedy traitors and Chinese patriots dressed in United States citizenship. We are killing ourselves slowly. We are watching it happen, shaking our heads and doing nothing. Now we find ourselves the central target of radical Islam, spending ourselves into oblivion to fight these radicals under the blanket of self defense.....
I sometimes wonder if the transfer of communist power to China, our loss of strategic technical knowledge, and our entanglements with backwards 14th century Islamic thought is an intentional design foisted on us by those who want control of the globe at our expense. The Chinese Communists supported by the old soviet guard!
All I have to say is keep the nuclear war fighting capacity fully capable, insulated from pre-emptive attack, and updated with the best war plans imaginable. And be prepared to use these assets when the time comes.
Everyone burn in hell :confused:
RACK HIM
POST OF THE WEEK !!
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Originally posted by aenigma
I'd like to remind everyone, especially PRO-clinton, that china's missile technology was seriously boosted when billie clinton "shared" our military secrets to china.
between that....and clinton's "peace dividend" where he cut military spending and CIA budgets......as well as "re-designing" the CIA to be a "kinder/gentler" agency by pulling our human intel assets (covert ops agents) off the streets of the world....and then of course.....right about at the same time he was being pleasured in the oval office...the 911 terrorist cells were arriving here.......
knowing this....and seeing as how the libs want to do the same thing all over again..starting with gitmo and military tribunals, etc... at a time of war....is unconscionable.
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Originally posted by straffo
Where are you deployed currently ?
the home office.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Needless to say that your navy has a great history of completely failing air defense when under real attack and shooting down harmless passenger airliners just because someone got scared to death and crapped his pants. Should I elaborate?
He MUST be referring to the Soviet downing of defenceless KAL airliner back in 1983, correct?
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I think Boroda honestly believes it was some sort of spy plane, and that all the families of the deceased were invented. He's an example of his upbringing, and Occam's Razor is hard to apply when it's going against beliefs adopted so early in life.
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Simplest explanation is that Soviet press release said the truth, so it must be true.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Nice. Guncams and radio-talks only prove that US planes shot down two Soviet planes in international waters.
MiGs got intercepted by Panthers and "blue" side attacked first, it's quite obvious, Soviet pilots couldn't even return fire - they they were not allowed to use their weapons against Americans.
Now maybe you'll tell me an American POV on a Sukhaya Rechka airfield attack? Maybe it will be like "evil Soviet airfield attacked harmless US planes and got bombed and strafed in self-defense"?
Soviet side never mentioned both encounters in official propaganda, all sources on Korean war and following conflicts in Far East was de-classified in early 90s, when it wasn't used for propaganda purposes for obvious reasons.
You also missed the altitude difference in the fight. Kinda hard for the Navy Panthers to jump bogeys that have a 35k advantage. You also fail to realize that the radio transcripts will show everything from the beginning to the end of the entire engagement.
Not everything my country has done has been on the *up and up* and not everything your country has done has been on the *up and up*.
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Argentinian Super Etendar Touch and Go on Ronald Reagan Carrier, photo by U.S Navy
(http://www.patricksaviation.com/uploads/photos/22432.jpg)
I love Boroda and yanks... the two sides makes up for amusing read.
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Borat, Borod, sorry Borod-a...here:
"Needless to say that your navy has a great history of completely failing air defense when under real attack and shooting down harmless passenger airliners just because someone got scared to death and crapped his pants. Should I elaborate?"
I am a bit late for this one, and I did see you getting spanked promptly by Widewing.
However, I must ask you about which failing air defence you refer to, especially if it is anything but Pearl Harbour, as well as adding to the line of those who mentioned the Korean airliner.
USSR crapped their panths and shot down a 747 on a border area, yet they were not up to the job to properly spot and/or intercept a dude-controlled C172 that crept over some 2000 + (?) miles of USSR/Warshaw pact airspace,- DURING the cold war.
Did he get a German medal? No.
Where did he train his cross country ride? Iceland :D (the Only place in W-Europe where you have proper peace in a lot of airspace to do such stuff I guess).
Did you hear about this in Russian media? (you tell me...)
Did the USSR medal bearing low-passers have guns trained on them?
maybe.......
Did the USSR buzz....Iceland? Unheard off in the time of the USMC and USN up here, but the Bear interceptions/escorts were by the hundreds over the years.....- however you can do it now :D
Would there be interceptions or guns on you? .... Maybe :D
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I think it was maybe only 200 miles, but still.... The citizens of Soviet Union would have reported him, I'm sure, because they certainly saw him (a civilian aircraft? Obviously unauthorized!) but unfortunately the copper for the phone lines had been stripped a couple years earlier to fulfill an urgent request for metal by the government. ;)
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Originally posted by Chairboy
KgB: A slight logical flaw in your reasoning, the people who would have made the decision to allow the Cessna in are the ones who got sacked. If this had been a plot by Gorbachev to get rid of those people, why would they participate?
Can we expect further insight of this caliber in the future?
Nope,no flaws in my reasoning.Let me rephrase,Gorbachev did everything to destroy USSR.As if he did it purpose.
Keeping in mind that majority of politburo was corrupted,i wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow we find out that Gorbachev did it with help from west.
You wanna tell me that Americans are not bright enough to pull that off?
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Originally posted by C(Sea)Bass
I hate to bust some of you guys bubbles, but, China is NOT communist. They are no more socialized than Sweden, or Germany.
Might want to explain that to the ruling Chinese Communist Party. The principle political idealogy is a blend of Marxist-Leninism and Maoism. Later, Deng Xiaoping came up with the "Deng Xiaoping Theory" which consists of the primary principles of:
- Marxism and Leninism
- Party Loyalty
- Subjection to leadership -
- Thoughts of Mao Zedong
His theory is now the main political theory governing the Chinese Communist Party as his "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" is the main theory behind China's economy.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by KgB
Nope,no flaws in my reasoning.Let me rephrase,Gorbachev did everything to destroy USSR.As if he did it purpose.
Keeping in mind that majority of politburo was corrupted,i wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow we find out that Gorbachev did it with help from west.
You wanna tell me that Americans are not bright enough to pull that off?
I would have thought the Old Guard that was bent on destroying whatever freedoms the people had, destroying any political dissent and/or opposition, running the country into bankruptcy and the ruling/governing party is corrupt would have been the cause of the USSR's demise. Not some guy that saw the writing on the wall and realized the old way was the wrong way and tried to change things.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Might want to explain that to the ruling Chinese Communist Party. The principle political idealogy is a blend of Marxist-Leninism and Maoism. Later, Deng Xiaoping came up with the "Deng Xiaoping Theory" which consists of the primary principles of:
- Marxism and Leninism
- Party Loyalty
- Subjection to leadership -
- Thoughts of Mao Zedong
His theory is now the main political theory governing the Chinese Communist Party as his "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics" is the main theory behind China's economy.
ack-ack
China is socialist and is ruled by a communist party, they are not communist though. in communism there are no private buisinesses, everything is owned by the government. China has private buisinesses, just look at all the ones American companies have been investing in over the last few years.
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Originally posted by Elfie
You also missed the altitude difference in the fight. Kinda hard for the Navy Panthers to jump bogeys that have a 35k advantage. You also fail to realize that the radio transcripts will show everything from the beginning to the end of the entire engagement.
Not everything my country has done has been on the *up and up* and not everything your country has done has been on the *up and up*.
Daaaamn.
According to Soviet side MiGs took off to intercept targets approaching Soviet airspace, the fight began with US planes getting on MiGs 6, then the radio communications were lost. One MiG ditched due to an engine failure and didn't participate in a fight, so Red side was outnumbered, one MiG returned to base, two were shot down by Americans. Some Russian-language web-sites say the carrier was called Princeton, not Oriskani.
After studying American records from Korean war - I think I'll believe Red side. And Soviet pilots were not allowed to use weapons in international airspace.
Still no comments on Sukhaya Rechka airfield attack.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Nice. Guncams and radio-talks only prove that US planes shot down two Soviet planes in international waters.
MiGs got intercepted by Panthers and "blue" side attacked first, it's quite obvious, Soviet pilots couldn't even return fire - they they were not allowed to use their weapons against Americans.
Now maybe you'll tell me an American POV on a Sukhaya Rechka airfield attack? Maybe it will be like "evil Soviet airfield attacked harmless US planes and got bombed and strafed in self-defense"?
Soviet side never mentioned both encounters in official propaganda, all sources on Korean war and following conflicts in Far East was de-classified in early 90s, when it wasn't used for propaganda purposes for obvious reasons.
First, the MiGs were at 50,000 feet, confirmed by radar, the same general altitude they flew at in Korea. Why? Because they were relatively safe from attack up that high.
Now, with the MiGs at 50k, how would the Panthers attack them when its service ceiling was just 42,800 feet?
Read the after action reports.
As to your claim the Soviets "were not allowed to use their weapons against Americans", and "couldn't return fire". That's simply balderdash.
Explain the 23mm damage to Williams F9F? I scanned in a photo provided by Williams to Adam Makos.
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/WilliamsDamage.jpg)
So far, you offer nothing to support your ridiculous claim. This is simply because you cannot do so. However, don't let that stop you from blathering away. We're all interested in how far you'll dig that hole you're in.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Explain the 23mm damage to Williams F9F? I scanned in a photo provided by Williams to Adam Makos.
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/WilliamsDamage.jpg)
So far, you offer nothing to support your ridiculous claim. This is
Birdstrike!
-Sik
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Originally posted by Widewing
So far, you offer nothing to support your ridiculous claim. This is simply because you cannot do so. However, don't let that stop you from blathering away. We're all interested in how far you'll dig that hole you're in.
Do I HAVE to prove anything?!
http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/PAPERS/HISTORY/USA_SPY.HTM
"В 14 часов 17 минут была обнаружена группа неизвестных самолетов южнее мыса Гамова. В 14 часов 38 минут эта группа самолетов начала движение курсом на север в сторону нашей территории.
В 14 часов 48 минут командир авиазвена капитан Беляков доложил с воздуха, что два самолета заходят в хвост и что вступает с ними в бой. После этого связь с истребителями прекратилась.
Как установлено, воздушный бой произошел на высоте 6 тыс. метров над морем в 30-35 км от побережья мыса Гамова и в 10-15 км от нашей морской границы.
Из четырех истребителей на аэродром возвратился один, который во время боя оторвался от своих самолетов. Другой вследствие отказа двигателя упал в море в районе мыса Льва и в воздушном бою не участвовал. Летчик погиб. Остальные два самолета предположительно сбиты американцами"
Quoted according to Izvestia, Jan 5 1994. It's a quote from a Soviet Navy report.
Soviet planes were attacked 10min after a take-off, 30min after US planes were spotted by Soviet locators. The flight took place at 6km alt and 10-15km from Soviet sea border.
Oriskani's Panthers were severely punched when flying over Korea, so I can easily doubt your photo.
Now I think I should ask specialists at Russians Mil-History Forum. There should be more documents available.
BTW, Izvestia made a great investigation on KAL-007 back in early 90s.
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According to Soviet side MiGs took off to intercept targets approaching Soviet airspace, the fight began with US planes getting on MiGs 6, then the radio communications were lost. One MiG ditched due to an engine failure and didn't participate in a fight, so Red side was outnumbered, one MiG returned to base, two were shot down by Americans. Some Russian-language web-sites say the carrier was called Princeton, not Oriskani.
Then the Russian websites are obviously incorrect. Where's your documentation? Don't bother making excuses, there isn't any. Why? Because the Soviets were not in the habit of announcing debacles like this one. Even if they documented such a one-sided beating, you must realize that the report would not reflect the facts... Can you say Gulag?
After studying American records from Korean war - I think I'll believe Red side. And Soviet pilots were not allowed to use weapons in international airspace.
Well, of course you would! No one expected otherwise.
Here's the dilemma for Soviet revisionists: Seven MiG-15s, a fighter vastly superior to the F9F (a first generation jet fighter), attack two F9Fs while having a huge altitude advantage.
Two week-end warrior reservists, on their first ever combat deployment, and never having engaged in air combat prior; beat the living daylights out of the MiGs. Sending two into the drink, and two more limping home shot to pieces (only the Soviets know if they did get home).
Would you be in a hurry to report this to Stalin?
Let's touch on another point. The after action reports, which detail the engagement is on a US Navy website. It isn't on some public forum or some non-government site. The documents are authentic.
So, if you post something here that resembles a document, you had better have serious bona fides. IE: If it's not a primary source document from a government source (verifiable) it could easily be a forgery. It wouldn't be the first time someone cooked up a document to support a nonsensical argument. Credibility counts.. Verstehen?
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Boroda
Still no comments on Sukhaya Rechka airfield attack.
What comments would you like? A navigation blunder and an unfortunate strafing of a Soviet airfield. The US admitted the error, apologized and offered to pay for any damage. What's the issue here?
From this website: (http://www.koreanwar.org/html/units/frontline/biteman/biteman23.htm)
"On Sunday, 8 October 1950, First Lieutenant Ray Carter took an afternoon flight of two up the east coast to the very northeast corner of North Korea ...where Korea, Manchuria and Russia join borders. Finding a multitude of targets on the roads near Kyongwon, on the Korean side, he wasn't aware when he crossed the border with Russia, heading northeast ...into forbidden territory. Soviet territory!
Continuing through the sparse valleys of the coastal range, he led his flight onto an open plain and discovered a 'secret airfield' with dozens of airplanes on the parking apron. However, because he was getting low on fuel, and the anti-aircraft fire was heavier than what Ray had been used to, he led just one wild strafing pass down the long line of 'enemy' aircraft, then turned out to sea and followed the winding coastline back to Pusan, arriving long after dark.
Two hours before Ray's flight reached Pusan's K-9 base, we had been alerted to a problem by a Top Secret message from Far East Air Force Headquarters. The steaming message came straight from General MacArthur, with emphasis added by Gen. Stratemeyer the Far East Air Force Commander:
'Who in the bloody hell's been shooting up the Russian airplanes on the very outskirts of Vladivostok?!'
That 'secret airfield' they'd strafed was at Sukhaya Rechka ...sixty miles inside Soviet Siberia, and the Hotlines from Moscow to Washington were buzzing with indignation.
Washington was very apologetic, assuring the Soviets that it was a simple and understandable navigation error on the part of our pilots, and that they would be severely disciplined. Our government even offered to pay the Russians monetary damages for the loss of their equipment destroyed in the raid. They finally allowed the matter to drop, and a possible provocation of World War Three was allowed to pass almost unnoticed.
Ray Carter felt terrible about attracting so much adverse high-level attention to the Squadron. I consoled him by telling him that he was getting his wrist slapped for his error in navigation ...he was grounded for a week, sent to Tokyo for high echelon interrogation, then placed on R & R Leave until things cooled down."
My regards,
Widewing
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Again: 4 MiGs _attacked_ by US planes. One returned to base. Look, I admit it.
I'll ask this question at Russian Military-Historical Forum, hope I'll get answers with archive documents, with proper fund and folder numbers.
In fact Americans engaged only three MiGs, not seven, and Americans began to move towards Soviet airspace before Soviet fighters took off for interception.
I have to admit that I don't remember if Soviet planes returned fire or not, they probably could, after being attacked (I mean after being shot at), but only as self-defense. Reading memoirs of many Soviet pilots who flew at Far East in 1950s-60s - they had to get the permission to open fire at American violators in Soviet airspace through an extremely long chain of command, so people like Leonid Mekhanikov wrote that they got gnnery solutions on RB-47 and never got a permission to open fire before an invader left Soviet airspace.
Invader(s) over Sakhalin in Sept 1983 was(were) shot down only because of voluntary decision of local VVS commander, gen. Kornukov, later - a VVS RF Supreme Commander, the situation just became too tense.
You can also look at this site: http://rescue007.org/ Loonies, but there is a grain of truth everywhere.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Daaaamn.
According to Soviet side MiGs took off to intercept targets approaching Soviet airspace, the fight began with US planes getting on MiGs 6, then the radio communications were lost. One MiG ditched due to an engine failure and didn't participate in a fight, so Red side was outnumbered, one MiG returned to base, two were shot down by Americans. Some Russian-language web-sites say the carrier was called Princeton, not Oriskani.
After studying American records from Korean war - I think I'll believe Red side. And Soviet pilots were not allowed to use weapons in international airspace.
Still no comments on Sukhaya Rechka airfield attack.
You ever stop to think that just maybe the Red sides story is inaccurate? I'm 100% positive that my government doesn't always tell us the whole truth. I'm also 100% positive that no government in history has told it's people the whole truth, including the USSR.
The attack on the airfield? Give it a rest Boroda. The attack was carried out by 2 F-80 Shooting Stars, 2 whole planes strafed an airfield. The official explanation was that it was a navigational error on the part of the pilots. The commander was relieved from duty, pilots were disciplined and the US offered to pay damages. If you are looking for an apology for the attack, it won't be coming from me. I'm not going to apologize for an incident that happened before I was born.
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Originally posted by Boroda
You can also look at this site: http://rescue007.org/ Loonies, but there is a grain of truth everywhere.
Let's not try to change the subject... The tragic Korean 747 shoot down has nothing to do with the events of 1952. Soviet commanders made a terrible mistake in judgment, Just like Captain Rogers of the USS Vincennes made a terrible error in judgment, shooting two Standard missiles at that Iranian Airbus.
These things happened and everyone regrets the unnecessary and tragic deaths that resulted. Sometimes officers believed to be competent turn out to be otherwise. However, this is often found out after they blunder in a way beyond belief. Every nation's military has its fair share of these people, unfortunately.
The difference lies in how governments deal with it. A free press made sure that the US played its cards above the table. Not the case with the Soviets. It took a major embarrassment in the UN to get the Soviets to admit to the mistake.
But, let's not waste rhetoric on those issues. Lets, instead, stick to the topic.
Show us some trustworthy documentation that supports your ever evolving argument.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Boroda
ave to admit that I don't remember if Soviet planes returned fire or not, they probably could, after being attacked (I mean after being shot at), but only as self-defense. Reading memoirs of many Soviet pilots who flew at Far East in 1950s-60s - they had to get the permission to open fire at American violators in Soviet airspace through an extremely long chain of command, so people like Leonid Mekhanikov wrote that they got gnnery solutions on RB-47 and never got a permission to open fire before an invader left Soviet airspace.
Give it a rest boroda, everyone knows the USSR had pilots flying migs for NK, all the stuff's been declassified. So getting permission to fire is just some fantasy bouncing around your skull.
Where's nielson, I'm sure he has some comments about soviet pilots shooting down catalina's and such in int'l airspace in that era. Oops here we go:
Catalina affair
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A Swedish DC-3, similar to the one shot down by the Soviets in 1952
A Swedish Catalina, similar to the one shot down by the Soviets in 1952 while searching for the missing DC-3The Catalina affair was an incident on June 13, 1952, when a Swedish military DC-3 flying over the Baltic Sea carrying out signals intelligence gathering operations for the Swedish National Defence Radio Establishment, disappeared east of the Isle of Gotland. Three days later, two Swedish military Catalina flying boats searched for the DC-3 north of Estonia. One of the planes was shot down by Soviet warplanes but the crew ditched near the West German freighter Mьnsterland and were rescued.
Aftermath
The USSR denied shooting down the DC-3, but a few days later a life raft with Soviet shell shrapnel was found. In 1956, while meeting the Swedish Prime Minister Tage Erlander, the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev admitted that the Soviet Union had shot down the DC-3. This information was not released to the public at the time.
In 1991, the Soviet air force admitted it had shot down the DC-3. In the summer of 2003, a Swedish company found the remains of the downed DC-3 by using sonar. Some time later the Catalina was also found, 22 kilometers east of the official splashdown point..
Conclusion
Bullet holes showed that the DC-3 was shot down by a MiG-15 fighter. The exact splash down time was also determined, as one of the clocks in the cockpit had stopped at 11:28:40 CET. To this date the remains of only five of the eight-man crew have been found.
Not a very honourable moment for the USSR eh boroda?
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
I was waiting for someone to say "nothing new"...but actually....alot is new. It's a different world now....we're in a protracted global war.....and we're being "tested" by too many lately....and quite frankly...I'm sick of watching us whipe spit off our faces from it all.
Well then we need to quit being the mayor of pussville and be the sheriff of ballstown. Shoot em down, They wont do crud except accuse us in a non-threating way. They know hillary might be elected and they are taking advantage of it.
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Originally posted by Slash27
Wow, doesn't take much to be a hero in Russia these days does it?
lol :aok
Sounds to me like we need to fire up the Tomcats again. :)
Problem was... The jocks in the super hornets were too busy playing Xbox 360 on their fancy new HD MFD's.
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Originally posted by angelsandair
Well then we need to quit being the mayor of pussville and be the sheriff of ballstown. Shoot em down, They wont do crud except accuse us in a non-threating way. They know hillary might be elected and they are taking advantage of it.
Mmmmm...Around election time, though, that card could also be played other ways...A repub could use this, as well.
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
Who would fly that old hunk-o-crap that low. I'd be afraid something would fall off and at that altitude, there ain't much glidin'.....
Why do you say that? :confused: