Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Nefarious on February 13, 2008, 07:24:40 PM
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I'm torn...
I have been saving for a new semi-auto rifle. I want more power and accuracy than my Simonovs and my WASR-10 and as much as I want a M4/M16/Black Rifle, I can't justify spending a grand on one.
Am I sacrificing anything by wanting a CETME or G3 over a US made Rifle? I have never shot a CETME, none of the local firearms stores carry them. They all have Colt or Rugers, but no CETME's.
Input appreciated.
EDIT: Forgot to add gunbroker Dream Link :)
http://ww.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=91833048
Nef.
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If your set on a semi auto .308 your going to end up spending big bucks regardless of what you buy. Plan on at least a grand for anything that will reliably shoot the round.
My personal choices for a semi auto .308 would be an M-14 or a FN-FAL. Both are top notch weapon systems with a proven track record in combat around the world.
Now if your just looking for the one shot stopping power that the .308 delivers you might be better off with a bolt action rifle. Plenty to choose from and many are several hundred dollars less than any semi auto that's worth a damn.
I have a Ruger Model 77 all weather in .308 and a Savage Model 16FHSS in .308 Both are awsome weapons and the accuracy is hard to beat for something right out of the box. Consistent 1/2 to 3/4 inch groups at 300 meters with factory Winchester ammo. Cold bore shots are usually within 1-2 inches of my aimpoint at 300 meters.
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Originally posted by Nefarious
I'm torn...
I have been saving for a new semi-auto rifle. I want more power and accuracy than my Simonovs and my WASR-10 and as much as I want a M4/M16/Black Rifle, I can't justify spending a grand on one.
Am I sacrificing anything by wanting a CETME or G3 over a US made Rifle? I have never shot a CETME, none of the local firearms stores carry them. They all have Colt or Rugers, but no CETME's.
Input appreciated.
EDIT: Forgot to add gunbroker Dream Link :)
http://ww.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=91833048
Nef.
I have that same Century Arms CETME. My wife bought me one for my 50th birthday, 5 years ago this month.
I have eight 20 round mags, one 5 round mag. I also have 200 rounds of 7.62 NATO belted (M60 ammo) in original steel ammo box.
I've never fired the damn thing... It's literally brand new.
One day, I'll take it to the range... ;)
What I have heard about the Century Arms CETMEs is that if it feeds, extracts and ejects cleanly, you got a good one. Most have very tight actions when new, but they loosen up after some shooting.
My wife paid about $375 for mine 5 years ago. A bargain at the time.
My regards,
Widewing
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How bout .223 Nef?
I use the stainless Ruger Mini14. A great piece. Deadly accurate.
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Originally posted by Nefarious
I'm torn...
I have been saving for a new semi-auto rifle. I want more power and accuracy than my Simonovs and my WASR-10 and as much as I want a M4/M16/Black Rifle, I can't justify spending a grand on one.
Am I sacrificing anything by wanting a CETME or G3 over a US made Rifle? I have never shot a CETME, none of the local firearms stores carry them. They all have Colt or Rugers, but no CETME's.
Input appreciated.
EDIT: Forgot to add gunbroker Dream Link :)
http://ww.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=91833048
Nef.
Wait, you whine about wanting an American .308 rifle, yet don't even mention the M14?
You've lost all privileges to even look at an M1a. You're damn lucky your american citizenship isn't revoked over this.
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What's the difference between G3 and CETME? CETME looks almost exactly the same, I'd be willing to bet it has the same mechanics too.
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Originally posted by Fishu
What's the difference between G3 and CETME? CETME looks almost exactly the same, I'd be willing to bet it has the same mechanics too.
I believe the CETME was made by German engineers' in Spain, after the Second World War. When it became feasible to do so, The engineering staff went back to Germany, to work for H & K, and they simply gave the CETME to them. At least, I think that's how the story goes...:noid
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Originally posted by Hornet33
My personal choices for a semi auto .308 would be an M-14 or a FN-FAL. Both are top notch weapon systems with a proven track record in combat around the world.
We used FN-FAL's in cadet forces (we called em SLR's), before NZ switched to M-16's. The FN-FALs are booooootiful :)
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If you are looking for something that is going to come in a ways under a grand you need to look towards the Ruger Mini 30. I have seen them at gun shows for as low at 600. Now that is not new of course. A new one will set you back about 800-900$. That is not bad considering a standard model M1A is going to set you back around 1,300 new.
As for an FN FAL forget about it. Even if you could find one, an FN FAL would be more than you are looking to spend. The knock off brands like Century, can be found for about 600-900. However, I would advise you to steer clear of the Century FAL's. Their quality control is hit or miss. I have seen some Century FALs that shoot flawlessly, and then I have seen others that looked like they were put together by a blind woman, they shot like it too. There are a lot of issues with Century and how they go about manufacturing their FALs. They tend to use mix and match parts.
DSA makes good rifles, but they are a bit out of your price range. The cheapest I have seen a standard model was a grand used. However, if you can find one for that cheap, snatch it up. The DSA SA58 is an outstanding shooter. It is one of the most intimidating rifles in my collection. When you hold it, you feel like you have an implement of war in your hands. There is no mistaking it's power.
In the end, if I were in your place, I would try to find a used Ruger Mini 30. It is cheap, it shoots pretty good, there are tons of websites out there for parts, magazines and accessories and the rifle is reliable. Ruger is a good company too. They do not have an official life time warranty due to all the restrictions that vary from state to state, however I have never heard of a case where someone was turned down by Ruger for replacement or repair. A few years ago I had a problem with a Ruger P89 9mm that had been though hell and back. I sent it to Ruger, they ended up replacing my P89 with a new one. They have one of the best customer service reputations in the business. The Mini 30 might not be the most accurate of the bunch, but it will get the job done.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Wait, you whine about wanting an American .308 rifle, yet don't even mention the M14?
You've lost all privileges to even look at an M1a. You're damn lucky your american citizenship isn't revoked over this.
LOL! I'm sure if the INS saw my Commie Pinko Rifle Collection they would deport me to China.
Back to the search I suppose. Thanks for the tips everyone.
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the mini 30 is not a nato.308 but I agree with you about the service.. I have a superblackhawk in 44 mag with well over 75,000 rounds through it that a bad lot of accurate arms powder cracked a cyl on.. Ruger practically rebuilt the gun for free even tho I told em it was the powder companies fault and that I would pay for the repair gladly.
If 30 caliber semi auto is the only consideration... the most fun I have with rifles is my M1 garand in 30 ought six.
A tad more powerful than the .308 and you can get one around a grand with luck. Accurate and fun and made of real wood and steel.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
the mini 30 is not a nato.308 but I agree with you about the service.. I have a superblackhawk in 44 mag with well over 75,000 rounds through it that a bad lot of accurate arms powder cracked a cyl on.. Ruger practically rebuilt the gun for free even tho I told em it was the powder companies fault and that I would pay for the repair gladly.
If 30 caliber semi auto is the only consideration... the most fun I have with rifles is my M1 garand in 30 ought six.
A tad more powerful than the .308 and you can get one around a grand with luck. Accurate and fun and made of real wood and steel.
lazs
The older Mini 30s are .308. My mini 30 is .308 cal. The newer models bore is .311, however it can still shoot .308 cal. My older model Mini 30 can not fire the Wolf stuff. The newer models can fire the NATO .308 and the .311 rounds, which is what most of the cheaper Russian and Chinese 7.62 X 39 ammo is loaded with. This is one of the major reasons for the not so hot accuracy of the Mini 30.
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.308 NATO = 7.62x51
Ruger Mini 30 = 7.62x39
It would be quite a trick to shoot the former in the latter.
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R-Guns in my neck of the woods has a wide selection of FALs. As noted, they run in the $1500 range. There is a really nice "paratrooper" I would like to get when I move out of Cook County.
I priced out an alternative to consider. You get a new receiver and US factory parts kit (5 US parts to make it legal, I believe) You also get an Imbel parts kit that for the rest of the major components. You can then gunsmith it yourself or have a gunsmith that specializes in such builds do it for around $300 or so. As I recall it comes in under $1000, but with more hassle.
Here's a link to one guys build:
http://www.wecsog.org/fal/carbine/
Charon
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Originally posted by Pyro
.308 NATO = 7.62x51
Ruger Mini 30 = 7.62x39
It would be quite a trick to shoot the former in the latter.
was about to post the very thing. mini 30 shoot AK47 ammo
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isnt the Mini 14/30 know for its LACK of accuracy? didnt Ruger just come out with a new Wizbang target one thats like double the price thats supposed to be able to hit a barn door at 50 feet?
No rifle that shoots 7.62X39 (mini30) could even chamber a 7.62Nato round.
At least if you do not live in fantasy land.
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Originally posted by BBBB
The older Mini 30s are .308. My mini 30 is .308 cal. The newer models bore is .311, however it can still shoot .308 cal. My older model Mini 30 can not fire the Wolf stuff. The newer models can fire the NATO .308 and the .311 rounds, which is what most of the cheaper Russian and Chinese 7.62 X 39 ammo is loaded with. This is one of the major reasons for the not so hot accuracy of the Mini 30.
I bought a mini 30 about a year ago. I took it to the range, and fired it. After about 50 rnds through it I packed it up brought it home cleaned it and put it on gunbroker for some poor sap like me to buy. That was the worst pos firearm I have ever had the displeasure of firing in my life. Oh btw 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 do not interchange in anyway shape form or fashion.
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acefire.. you probly shot lousy ammo but.. I bet that ruger shot every single one of em without even thinking of jamming. I have seen $2000 semi autos that were not even close to as reliable as the ruger.
they are not tack drivers. they can be.. the target version they came out with will shoot 1" groups.. real 1" groups.. you can even put a damper on a mini 14 and cut the group size in half. even a couple of battery clamps (ugly as hell) clamped on to the barrel of a mini 14 will cut the groups.
pyro thanks.. that is correct.. the 7.62 x 39 that the mini 30 shoots is nothing like a nato round.. in fact.. it is on the opposite team.
lazs
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Laz I purchased a mini 14 from a gun show back in 90's. First couple clips it broke a extractor and part of the bolt. Fixed that problem took it back out and after it heated up a round got jammed in the chamber. I had to take a rubber hammer to extract the live round. Sold it to a gunsmith the next week.
My buddy was given a mini 14 by his father that was a late 70's production. It ran good for about 1/2 year then the same problems came up for him.
I thought it could be the ammo but both of us were using different ammo when the problem accorded.
I just cant see the mini 14/30 being a better gun than my sks. To this day my sks has run smooth and i am willing to bet that its just as accurate.
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Originally posted by FX1
I just cant see the mini 14/30 being a better gun than my sks. To this day my sks has run smooth and i am willing to bet that its just as accurate.
I love all three of mine too. I've hear them being called the poor man's M1. I'm not sure why, as I've never shot a Garand, only thing I could guess would be the Wood? Or the ease of use maybe.
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I got a ram line stock for my sks and it was a world of difference... Last year i tried out a AK muzzle brake and for $10 it did make a major improvement.
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Ruger minis arent exactly known for great accuracy but they are handy little things and fill the bill for home protection and ranch rambling. They are fairly small so you can throw them in the back of a pickup. Ive had a few thru the years but I sold them.
Were I to buy another theres no doubt I would buy it chambered in 7.62x39 which is a very good self defense load. AND ammo is cheap to boot. It can also double as a light deer rifle I guess tho it wouldnt be a prime choice. Armalite makes the AR-10 but its pricey. They make long distance shooters chambered in all kinds of HP loads. Loads like .338 Fed and Lapua, .300 WM, and even 50 BMG.
But all around use? Nothing tops 7.62 NATO in my book. But your not going to go this route cheaply no matter how you cut it. Unless you get lucky and find one used. If you just want a cheap plinker then pickup a SKS, AK, or maybe look for a M1 Garand in good condition.
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Originally posted by FX1
I got a ram line stock for my sks and it was a world of difference... Last year i tried out a AK muzzle brake and for $10 it did make a major improvement.
How did you put an AK Muzzle Brake on your SKS? Do you have a Yugo? I can't imagine putting a brake on any other SKS besides a Yugo without major modification to the barrel.
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http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/SKS505-46213-2659.html
I have a Russian sks from the late 80's. A monkey could put it on in ten seconds.
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Get a FAL or FAL variant. L1a1 is a good one. if you get a rifle built from a kit watch out for ones built with century arms recievers. you either get a great one or a crappy one. Mine was built by my uncle off a century arms reciever, took about 3 hours of dremel tooling it down and polishing the feeding guide to get it to shoot and feed right. atm it shoots alil high for my taste, but the groupings are tight.
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Originally posted by BBBB
The older Mini 30s are .308. My mini 30 is .308 cal. The newer models bore is .311, however it can still shoot .308 cal. My older model Mini 30 can not fire the Wolf stuff. The newer models can fire the NATO .308 and the .311 rounds, which is what most of the cheaper Russian and Chinese 7.62 X 39 ammo is loaded with. This is one of the major reasons for the not so hot accuracy of the Mini 30.
You are mixing Apples and Oranges here. The Ruger Mini 30 fires the Russian Short: 7.62x39mm. The Ruger Mini Rifles have never been chambered for .308 Winchester, also called 7.62x51mm NATO
I used to own a Mini 30, but it was such a pile of absolute junk that I sold it after a year. Most inaccurate rifle I have ever owned in my life.
SIG 220
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Originally posted by acfireguy26
I bought a mini 30 about a year ago. I took it to the range, and fired it. After about 50 rnds through it I packed it up brought it home cleaned it and put it on gunbroker for some poor sap like me to buy. That was the worst pos firearm I have ever had the displeasure of firing in my life. Oh btw 7.62x39 and 7.62x51 do not interchange in anyway shape form or fashion.
This comparison photo shows how radically different the two rounds are:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Rifle_cartridge_comparison.jpg)
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Originally posted by Nefarious
I love all three of mine too. I've hear them being called the poor man's M1. I'm not sure why, as I've never shot a Garand, only thing I could guess would be the Wood? Or the ease of use maybe.
The gun you want to get is the Saiga .308. It is made at the Russian IZHEVSK ARMS factory where the AK-47 was originally created. This is a super reliable quality firearm. It is basically an AK-47 design that has been beefed up to handle the 7.62 NATO round.
The famous AK-47 action does a great job of taking of absorbing the recoil of the .308 too. They have cheaper plastic stocked models, but there are now models out with nice wood stocks, and they still cost less than $500.
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a321/MeAmMe/Saigas/IMG_0743.jpg)
Note the larger receiver and magazine size for the .308:
(http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a321/MeAmMe/Saigas/IMG_0748.jpg)
Here is a link to the online store of the Saiga dealer that I got mine from:
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/SellerAuctions.asp?User=350400
He has been selling the 16" barrel carbine version with plastic stock for only $435, if you want something more compact.
20 round mags are now available for the rifle from two different makers. You can find full details on the Saiga gun online users forums located here:
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?act=idx
Here is a photo of the carbine model:
(http://forum.saiga-12.com/uploads/post-6-1088556341.jpg)
Note that you can easily attach a scope using the standard AK-47 scope side mount.
You will be far, far happier with one of these, compared to a Mini-30
SIG 220
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although it's only of historical interest there was the ruger xgi.
it was a scaled-up mini chambered in .308 winchester and .243, but it never went in to production. i remember the xgi ads in gun magazines back in the 80's. it was a shame the xgi didn't work out for ruger. it could have been the poor mans alternative to the m1a.
and speaking of the m1a it would be my choice in .308 semi
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Originally posted by Excel1
although it's only of historical interest there was the ruger xgi.
it was a scaled-up mini chambered in .308 winchester and .243, but it never went in to production. i remember the xgi ads in gun magazines back in the 80's. it was a shame the xgi didn't work out for ruger. it could have been the poor mans alternative to the m1a.
and speaking of the m1a it would be my choice in .308 semi
Well, but Nefarious said that his budget would not even allow for a $1,000 AR-15. M1a's cost much more than the typical AR-15. The cheapest base model of M1a with plastic stock is now selling for $1,300 street price.
The M14 was the Army's main battle rifle for only 5 years, from 1959 to 1964, when the M16 replaced it. While it still sees limited use today, as our main battle rifle, it had the shortest service record in our history.
The Saiga .308 would meet the needs of Nefarious to have an effective and utterly reliable battle rifle in .308 Winchester, and it would cost less than $500 And just how successful has the AK-47 design been??
The recoil is so light that even a woman can easily shoot it. Here is a lady with the rifle version with the plain plastic stocks, and a 20 round magazine loaded in it:
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d30/SEAPIMP/KAT-N-I003.jpg)
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Guess I been lucky on the mini 14 thing.. Know about 5 guys who have em and none of us has ever had a bit of trouble with em except for some cheap magazines. don't know if it matters but every one of the guys I know with one has the stainless steel versions.
What is funny is that I also know a lot of guys with SKS's.. real russian ones and we call the things "pumpkin guns" because that is the size of the group they shoot.. very very large pumpkins.
It is weird how peoples experiances with the same equipment differ so much so often.
There are several guns tho that everyone likes. I like my Garand and my ruger revolvers and my kimber and old smith and wessons..
lazs
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My experience with Mini's has been the same, very reliable, I can't even remember a single FTF with either of mine. Accuracy, again, fairly suspect, but out to 1 or 200 meters, it'll do minute of man just fine.
As for a good 7.62 rifle, our company and a number of others are running short M14 and FAL variants, with good results from both. I'm not a huge fan of the FAL and the failings of the adjustable gas system in certain climates, but the one I have seems to have given me a surprising lack of trouble thus far.
The Socom's from Springfield are excellent, losing only a few hundred FPS from the full length bbl's. The penetration of the 762 vs 556 is very appreciable when firing through barriers, even glass windshields, but particularly walls and doors. It's well worth the extra recoil and smaller magazine capacities.
When it's all said and done, shoot and use what works for you, after all, it's the operator not the tool.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Guess I been lucky on the mini 14 thing.. Know about 5 guys who have em and none of us has ever had a bit of trouble with em except for some cheap magazines. don't know if it matters but every one of the guys I know with one has the stainless steel versions.
Well, as everyone knows, the reputation of the Ruger Mini rifles for accuracy was so very bad that Ruger recently overhauled and updated the design of the rifle. Supposedly new production rifles are now better shooters. I am not aware of any complaints from fellow shooters that I have talked to about the Ruger Mini rifles having any inherent functioning issues.
My Mini 30 never had any problem with a decent quality magazine installed. Unfortunately, there were some really cheap, lower quality mags made for the Ruger Minis. And those may have accounted for any problem reports in reliability, not the actual rifle itself.
What is funny is that I also know a lot of guys with SKS's.. real russian ones and we call the things "pumpkin guns" because that is the size of the group they shoot.. very very large pumpkins.
It is weird how peoples experiances with the same equipment differ so much so often.
There are several guns tho that everyone likes. I like my Garand and my ruger revolvers and my kimber and old smith and wessons..
lazs
Most folks I know who are happy with their SKS bought later production Chinese Norinco made guns, which were legally imported in the USA until 1994, when they got banned from further import. Although very cheap, both my son and a close friend have Norinco SKS's, and they shoot quite well considering the type of gun they are.
The SKS was almost as big a failure as a standard Army issue rifle for the Russians, as the M14 was for the USA. It was only produced in Russia from 1949 to 1955. It was also primarily produced at the Tula Armory, and not the Izhevsk Armory where the AK variants have been made. The AK-47 was so superior in so many ways that it quickly replaced it. I don't know a single person who owns a Russian SKS, since they have not been made for so very long.
Smith and Wesson revolvers are classics, and should be kept in any gun collection. New production S&W revolvers are now quite expensive to buy.
SIG 220
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I have an M1A, and have never had a failure to feed. I shoot it without even a shadow of a doubt it will work flawlessly, and that is with milsurp ammo. Maybe I am lucky and got a good one.
Rack grade with just a little upgrading, shoots where I am it. It is more accurate than I am.
I would recommend it to anyone looking for a good .308 win or 7.62x51 platform.
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Originally posted by Regulator
I have an M1A, and have never had a failure to feed. I shoot it without even a shadow of a doubt it will work flawlessly, and that is with milsurp ammo. Maybe I am lucky and got a good one.
Rack grade with just a little upgrading, shoots where I am it. It is more accurate than I am.
I would recommend it to anyone looking for a good .308 win or 7.62x51 platform.
We have been discussing quality issues with the Ruger Mini 14, not the Springfield Armory M1A I doubt that anyone here feels the M1A is not a quality made weapon.
If Nefarious had not indicated that he was unwilling to pay $1,000 for a rifle, then I would have also recommended the M1A to him, as well as the Saiga .308 AK-47.
SIG 220
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Originally posted by SIG220
We have been discussing quality issues with the Ruger Mini 14, not the Springfield Armory M1A I doubt that anyone here feels the M1A is not a quality made weapon.
If Nefarious had not indicated that he was unwilling to pay $1,000 for a rifle, then I would have also recommended the M1A to him, as well as the Saiga .308 AK-47.
SIG 220
I was making a general comment about the rifle, as many have brought up this rifle and others in this thread. If someone looks around enough, occasionally an M1A can be found under 1G, though rare. Many swear by the Chinese versions of the M1A, and they can easily be had for under 1G. I prefer Springfield myself. Don't feel the need to spend the big bucks for LRB.
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Originally posted by SIG220
Well, but Nefarious said that his budget would not even allow for a $1,000 AR-15. M1a's cost much more than the typical AR-15. The cheapest base model of M1a with plastic stock is now selling for $1,300 street price.
The M14 was the Army's main battle rifle for only 5 years, from 1959 to 1964, when the M16 replaced it. While it still sees limited use today, as our main battle rifle, it had the shortest service record in our history.
The Saiga .308 would meet the needs of Nefarious to have an effective and utterly reliable battle rifle in .308 Winchester, and it would cost less than $500 And just how successful has the AK-47 design been??
i wasn't suggesting nefarious should buy an m1a, i was just stating that the m1a would be my preference.
yup, the m1a is expensive. for the money you would pay for one standard m1a in nz$ you would be able to buy four saiga's in .308 winchester. but i would rather have one m1a in my gun cabinet that four saiga's. i don't have anything against the saiga i just think the m1a is a better rifle- quality, accuracy, feel and fit.
saiga, molot vepr and the chicom m14 copies may be relatively inexpensive and good value for the money for .308 semis, and and buying any of these guns while constrained by a budget is fine if you really like the gun and are happy with it. but imo after having checked out all the available options if it's your second or third choice then it may have been better to wait until you can afford to get what you really wanted... or just blow the budget and get it in the first place
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Originally posted by Regulator
I was making a general comment about the rifle, as many have brought up this rifle and others in this thread. If someone looks around enough, occasionally an M1A can be found under 1G, though rare. Many swear by the Chinese versions of the M1A, and they can easily be had for under 1G. I prefer Springfield myself. Don't feel the need to spend the big bucks for LRB.
Buying a Chinese made M1A would seem to be so totally wrong to me.
The Chinese also make a clone of the classic Winchester 97 pump shotgun that is affordable. And although I really wanted a Model 97, I could not bring myself to buy one.
I kept looking and looking, until I finally found a real Winchester 97 in great condition to buy. But it cost me twice the price of the Chinese copy, even though it was a used gun, and the Chinese version was new.
SIG 220
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The SKS was not a failure by any means. While it was eclipsed by the AK in front line Soviet units its also true the SKS continued to be issued to other units for decades afterwards. And as an export the SKS was a very successful design. Go ahead and shoot one till the cows come home. It wont jam or malfunction.
And it was NOT a failure.
Originally posted by SIG220
Well, as everyone knows, the reputation of the Ruger Mini rifles for accuracy was so very bad that Ruger recently overhauled and updated the design of the rifle. Supposedly new production rifles are now better shooters. I am not aware of any complaints from fellow shooters that I have talked to about the Ruger Mini rifles having any inherent functioning issues.
My Mini 30 never had any problem with a decent quality magazine installed. Unfortunately, there were some really cheap, lower quality mags made for the Ruger Minis. And those may have accounted for any problem reports in reliability, not the actual rifle itself.
Most folks I know who are happy with their SKS bought later production Chinese Norinco made guns, which were legally imported in the USA until 1994, when they got banned from further import. Although very cheap, both my son and a close friend have Norinco SKS's, and they shoot quite well considering the type of gun they are.
The SKS was almost as big a failure as a standard Army issue rifle for the Russians, as the M14 was for the USA. It was only produced in Russia from 1949 to 1955. It was also primarily produced at the Tula Armory, and not the Izhevsk Armory where the AK variants have been made. The AK-47 was so superior in so many ways that it quickly replaced it. I don't know a single person who owns a Russian SKS, since they have not been made for so very long.
Smith and Wesson revolvers are classics, and should be kept in any gun collection. New production S&W revolvers are now quite expensive to buy.
SIG 220
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
The SKS was not a failure by any means. While it was eclipsed by the AK in front line Soviet units its also true the SKS continued to be issued to other units for decades afterwards. And as an export the SKS was a very successful design. Go ahead and shoot one till the cows come home. It wont jam or malfunction.
It is also still seen in combat zones around the world. Most recently I saw Burmese troops carrying them when they crushed that civil unrest last year.
Like I mentioned above, I have Three. All Chinese, two with wood stocks, One with a plastic Side folder. They all shoot great.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
We used FN-FAL's in cadet forces (we called em SLR's), before NZ switched to M-16's. The FN-FALs are booooootiful :)
Didn't the NZ L1A1's get replaced by Steyr F88's? The M-16's were already in service with the SLR
Tronsky
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that's right tronski, the nz army used both the slr and the m-16. the slr was the standard service rifle and the m-16s were originally bought to supplement the slr due to a shortage of slr's while the army was engaged in vietnam. as for the f88 austeyr, the nz army didn't want it. they wanted the diemaco c7 as a replacement service rifle, but i guess cross tasy politics made the decision for them.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
The SKS was not a failure by any means. While it was eclipsed by the AK in front line Soviet units its also true the SKS continued to be issued to other units for decades afterwards. And as an export the SKS was a very successful design. Go ahead and shoot one till the cows come home. It wont jam or malfunction.
And it was NOT a failure.
It was indeed a failure in terms of its very short service in the Soviet Army, which is the context that I was using.
After the Russians gave the Chinese and many other communist nations all the technical info they needed to manufacturer the rifle, it became a great success all around the world, especially in the Vietnam War.
One of its little known successes was its use by several Korean store owners to protect their property during the infamous Los Angeles Rodney King riots of 1992. Units from both the 7th Army Division and First Marine Division had to occupy a big chunk of Los Angeles in order to eventually restore peace. For a couple of days, though, things were totally out of control.
Rioters quickly learned to stay away from these Korean owned stores, once they came under fire from the SKS.
SIG 220