Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on February 14, 2008, 02:00:42 PM
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Wow. They definately need to put an asterik on all the NE superbowl wins now.
:mad:
Belichick has been taping since 2000, Goodell tells Specter
By LAURIE KELLMAN, Associated Press Writer
February 13, 2008
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Bill Belichick has been illegally taping opponents' defensive signals since he became the New England Patriots' coach in 2000, according to Sen. Arlen Specter, who said NFL commissioner Roger Goodell told him that during a meeting Wednesday.
"There was confirmation that there has been taping since 2000, when Coach Belichick took over," Specter said.
Specter said Goodell gave him that information during the 1-hour, 40-minute meeting, which was requested by Specter so the commissioner could explain his reasons for destroying the Spygate tapes and notes.
"There were a great many questions answered by Commissioner Goodell," Specter, the senior Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, told reporters after the meeting. "I found a lot of questions unanswerable because of the tapes and notes had been destroyed."
Goodell said Belichick told him he believed the taping was legal; Goodell said he did not concur.
"He said that's always been his interpretation since he's been the head coach," the commissioner said. "We are going to agree to disagree on the facts."
Specter, from Pennsylvania, wants to talk to other league officials about what exactly was taped and which games may have been compromised.
"We have a right to have honest football games," he said.
Goodell noted that "we were the ones that disclosed" the Patriots' illegal taping of the New York Jets' defensive signals in Week 1 of last season. Further, Goodell said, they had an admission by Belichick.
"I have nothing to hide," Goodell said.
Goodell also told Specter that that he doesn't regret destroying the Spygate tapes or the notes.
"I think it was the right thing to do," Goodell said.
Still, Specter wants to know why penalties were imposed on Belichick before the full extent of the wrongdoing was known and the tapes destroyed in a two-week span. Asked if he thinks there was a coverup, Specter demurred.
"There was an enormous amount of haste," Specter said.
He scoffed at the reasons Goodell gave for destroying the tapes and notes, particularly about trying to keep them out of competitors' hands and because Belichick had admitted to the taping.
"What's that got to do with it? There's an admission of guilt, you preserve the evidence," Specter said. As for keeping the tapes out of the hands of others: "All you have to do is lock up the tapes."
Belichick was fined $500,000 and the team was fined $250,000 because of the Spygate incident. The Patriots also forfeited a first-round draft pick.
Specter has questioned the quality of the NFL's investigation into the matter and raised the possibility of congressional hearings if he wasn't satisfied with Goodell's answers. Specter also raised the threat of Congress canceling the league's antitrust exemption and reiterated that in the meeting with Goodell.
Goodell also said he has not heard from Matt Walsh, the former Patriots employee who performed some videotaping duties for the team.
Walsh told The Associated Press last week during the Pro Bowl in Hawaii that he couldn't talk about allegations that he taped a walkthrough practice by the St. Louis Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl. New England, a two-touchdown underdog, won that game 20-17.
Goodell said he has offered Walsh a deal whereby "he has to tell the truth and he has to return anything he took improperly" in return for indemnity. Specter said he, too, wanted to talk to Walsh and perhaps offer a different deal.
Goodell also said he reserves the right to reopen the investigation if more information is uncovered.
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I'm loving it.
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"Specter has questioned the quality of the NFL's investigation into the matter and raised the possibility of congressional hearings if he wasn't satisfied with Goodell's answers."
Wait...isn't this the subject of another thread?
LOL
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=226795
Yes, I believe it is, except that one is about baseball and people humming and hawing over wasting congress' time.
Are the Patriots democrats or republicans?
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Originally posted by Curval
"Specter has questioned the quality of the NFL's investigation into the matter and raised the possibility of congressional hearings if he wasn't satisfied with Goodell's answers."
Wait...isn't this the subject of another thread?
LOL
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=226795
Yes, I believe it is, except that one is about baseball and people humming and hawing over wasting congress' time.
Are the Patriots democrats or republicans?
But baseball is boring. ;)
Besides, cheating in a sport that affects so many people from a financial point of view certainly is included in laws pertaining to unethical business behaviors because NFL is all about business. We're talking about a coach who has been taking unfair advantage in a business that has a combined net worth exceeding $20 billion alone, not counting what those 32 teams generate in profit.
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Specter wants Philly to be declared the winner of the superbowl 3 years back. But with the way McNabb played, it should be declared no winner.
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Originally posted by Curval
Are the Patriots democrats or republicans?
Not sure, but Belicheck is the antichrist, which is yet another thread.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
But baseball is boring. ;)
Besides, cheating in a sport that affects so many people from a financial point of view certainly is included in laws pertaining to unethical business behaviors because NFL is all about business.
When did baseball stop being a business? And "so many people from a financial point of view" do you mean illegal gambling?
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Belichick keeps this up, he'll be ready to jump into politics! :aok
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Originally posted by JBA
When did baseball stop being a business? And "so many people from a financial point of view" do you mean illegal gambling?
Steroid use was an indivdual choice of athletes. I think that distributing the information gathered from illegally taping defensive signals carries more damage to opposition teams than individuals shooting up illegal drugs, but hey, that's my opinion.
And no, not gambling. If your team wins the big game, its a historical fact that your francise sells more NFL team logo'd items.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
But baseball is boring. ;)
Besides, cheating in a sport that affects so many people from a financial point of view certainly is included in laws pertaining to unethical business behaviors because NFL is all about business. We're talking about a coach who has been taking unfair advantage in a business that has a combined net worth exceeding $20 billion alone, not counting what those 32 teams generate in profit.
It may be boring but it is likewise BIG BUSINESS.
Isn't taking illegal performance enhancing drugs cheating too?
We are talking about a guy that is looked upon as a HERO by millions of kids too.
Sorry, I fail to see the difference.
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Originally posted by Rollins
Belichick keeps this up, he'll be ready to jump into politics! :aok
:rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
He can join Jim McDermott's staff! (http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:LSmwxwiHuGMJ:www.nrcc.org/pdf/RepresentativeJimMcDermott.pdf+Washington+state+representive+illegal+tapes&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us) ;)
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Originally posted by Curval
It may be boring but it is likewise BIG BUSINESS.
Isn't taking illegal performance enhancing drugs cheating too?
We are talking about a guy that is looked upon as a HERO by millions of kids too.
Sorry, I fail to see the difference.
I'll try to spell it out:
1 guy on a team of 20 baseball players who is doping his arm most likely won't affect the outcome of a season. As it turns out, every team in baseball had at least one guy doping. Things are pretty even.
60 guys on the SAME team getting information from their coaches of what defensive signals to look in their opponents for CAN affect the outcome of the season.
I rest my case.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I'll try to spell it out:
1 guy on a team of 20 baseball players who is doping his arm most likely won't affect the outcome of a season. As it turns out, every team in baseball had at least one guy doping. Things are pretty even.
60 guys on the SAME team getting information from their coaches of what defensive signals to look in their opponents for CAN affect the outcome of the season.
I rest my case.
I see.
Can a woman be a little bit pregnant too?
:rofl
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Originally posted by Curval
I see.
Can a woman be a little bit pregnant too?
:rofl
:lol Well, I can lead a horse to water, but I can't make him drink it. Cheers Curval. :)
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Why does Congress need to be involved in sports when there is war going on. Ridiculous!
However, I figured they have been doing it for a while, a good while.
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I see someone who's not a NE fan :lol
Many coaches have done the exact same thing just never were stupid enough to get caught. It's a well known fact that the opposite team will try many devious ways to steal signals...that is why they cover their mouths when sending in plays.
I will agree that cheating is wrong in any form when it is such a big deal for many people but Specter should stick to what he knows, $500.00 taxpayer funded lunches, missed votes, illegal campaign contributions and burying the US in debt :D
Maybe Congress could try to straighten out a few of our countries real problems and let the baseball and football people try to handle their own misfortunes. I know that's a radical thought for all these government officials since they seem to need to have one hand up everyones bellybutton while they have their other hand in front of you begging for dollars.
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Originally posted by DaPup
I see someone who's not a NE fan :lol
Many coaches have done the exact same thing just never were stupid enough to get caught. It's a well known fact that the opposite team will try many devious ways to steal signals...that is why they cover their mouths when sending in plays.
Stealing signals is one thing. Taping them from the sideline is very different. There is nothing in the rules that says you cannot watch the other team's sideline from your own side and try to learn the signals. There is a rule against taping their sideline.
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I will agree that cheating is wrong in any form when it is such a big deal for many people
Which is why I included this in there. How convenient for Coach Mangini that he was aware and participated in the practice so that he could point out the right person at the right time though for the NFL :rolleyes:
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Whaa get over it already. I wonder how many coaches around the NFL had tape burning events.
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Originally posted by DaPup
Maybe Congress could try to straighten out a few of our countries real problems and let the baseball and football people try to handle their own misfortunes.
The problem is that they aren't handling. Baseball hadn't paid the steroid issue much more than lip service until the hearings several years ago. And now Goodell tries to sweep the cheating scandal under the rug. If the commissioners of the two sports would have dealt with the problems on their own, nothing else would be necessary.
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but juiced players mean exciting games which mean more fans which mean mo money.
MLB made the ball livelier, made the strike zone smaller, made the outfield fence closer, all to make the game higher scoring and more "exciting", why would they they not want the players to juice up, a run for the home run record sells tickets.
it's a business not a sport.
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Originally posted by Cougar68
The problem is that they aren't handling. Baseball hadn't paid the steroid issue much more than lip service until the hearings several years ago. And now Goodell tries to sweep the cheating scandal under the rug. If the commissioners of the two sports would have dealt with the problems on their own, nothing else would be necessary.
Sure they are, maybe not to everyones wishes but they have dealt with the issues. There are thousands of baseball players, they are some of the most drug tested employees in the US. If every company had their testing program there would be alot of unhappy people :lol I'd bet that many companies with thousands of employees have a higher drug use percentage than MLB.
As for the cheating "scandal", a first round draft pick and a $500k fine isn't exactly not dealing with it.
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Why do we have the Judicial branch? Let's just bring everyone accused of doing a wrong doing in front of a congressional hearing.
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18-1
:lol
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Originally posted by john9001
but juiced players mean exciting games which mean more fans which mean mo money.
MLB made the ball livelier, made the strike zone smaller, made the outfield fence closer, all to make the game higher scoring and more "exciting", why would they they not want the players to juice up, a run for the home run record sells tickets.
it's a business not a sport.
That made it more boring, not more exciting.
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Originally posted by DaPup
Sure they are, maybe not to everyones wishes but they have dealt with the issues. There are thousands of baseball players, they are some of the most drug tested employees in the US. If every company had their testing program there would be alot of unhappy people :lol I'd bet that many companies with thousands of employees have a higher drug use percentage than MLB.
As for the cheating "scandal", a first round draft pick and a $500k fine isn't exactly not dealing with it.
The drug testing came in after the first rounds of congressional hearings on steroids in baseball. Until then, it was rampant. Stringent drug testing is necessary to keep the sports as clean as possible. Baseball is making headway, but still has more work to do.
$500k and a first round pick is nothing compared to what should have been done. We're not talking about cheating in one game anymore, we're talking about cheating that's spanned 7 years and three Super Bowls. This goes waaaaay beyond $500k fines and draft picks. Goodell stepped in and made his little stand against it and then briskly tried to sweep it away. Thankfully it's all going to come out now.
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Originally posted by Cougar68
Thankfully it's all going to come out now.
Did I mention I'm loving it?
:rofl
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Old news, Belichick admitted this when he handed over the tapes.
Three jets defensive coaches flash signals to the defense(as all teams do), the one that sends the live signal changes all the time. Why? Cause they know they are being watched and filmed.
Do the jets do this when they play the patriots? No, they do that against every team, why? And why do other teams do the same thing against everyone they play? If you are capable, use a little logic and you will realize how widespread it is.
My guess is the jets(and other teams) will have three signal callers next season also. This is so overblown it borders on idiocy, if it was the Lions(or seahawks) it would have been a back page story.
The Pats are the best run team in the NFL, get over it. And truth be told, if Belichick ever hit the open market every team in the NFL would open the bank to sign him, no matter how many teams he filmed. Put him as head coach of the cowboys today and they would instantly be the favorite to win the SB. He's that good.
The petty jealousy is humorous, grow a pair
As for spector, his 2nd biggest campaign contributor is comcast(you know, the one with the ongoing dispute with the NFL?) and his biggest contributor is the law firm that represents comcast
spector needs to question his own integrity, not the NFL. With philly's lack of jobs and exploding crime rate you figure he would have more important things to worry about
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Originally posted by Cougar68
The drug testing came in after the first rounds of congressional hearings on steroids in baseball.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2003/11/13/mlb031113.html
Mandatory drug testing was agreed upon and implemented well before the first round of hearings. And there was plenty of drug testing before that point just ask Dwight Gooden or Darryl Strawberry.
I'm curious what you would have deemed a fit punishment for the Patriots? You say it goes way beyond the punishment given, why is that? Are you somehow affiliated with the NFL and feel you should dictate their policies to them?
Maybe Congress should get involved in drug testing for airplane mechanics, the UAW and the Doctors cutting into me. I care more about them being drug free than some juiced guy hitting a little ball around for 20 mil :O
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Why is it most Pats fans can't own up to the fact that their coach is a miserable cheating loser? Come on, have some class and call the guy out for what he is. New Englanders always defend their teams no matter what the case it seems.
Anyone seen xBishSquaddie/Patriots since the big game?
:lol
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Every NFL game is taped by the major television channel that carries the game. They have several different cameras covering a multitude of different angles. When the "live" camera is switched amongst the different angles, the others do not shut off. They continue to film. Those tapes are the property of the NFL and the teams that play the game.
If they (teams involved) did not review those tapes and look for signals, they would be idiots.
This is being blown out of proportion.
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Originally posted by Stang
Why is it most Pats fans can't own up to the fact that their coach is a miserable cheating loser? Come on, have some class and call the guy out for what he is. New Englanders always defend their teams no matter what the case it seems.
Anyone seen xBishSquaddie/Patriots since the big game?
:lol
Its called loyalty Stang. Thanks for noticing :)
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Originally posted by DaPup
I'm curious what you would have deemed a fit punishment for the Patriots? You say it goes way beyond the punishment given, why is that? Are you somehow affiliated with the NFL and feel you should dictate their policies to them?
I'll admit my timing on the implementation of the steroids policy was off. However, implementing a policy in 2004 is a flat out joke. Steroids and baseball went hand in hand long before that and everyone knew it.
I'm not sure what a fit punishment for the Patsies is going to be yet. I don't think anyone yet realizes the extent of what they're dealing with. There has been allegations of tampering with the quarterback/coach devices for years at the Patsies' home games. There's more to it than we know.
And yes, coaches expect their signals to be stolen, everyone does it, and there's plenty of camera angles on the TV networks to try and get your footage from. However, NFL policy STRICTLY prohibits teams to have cameras on the sidelines during a game. Yet the Patsies got away with it for seven freakin years!!! Say there is an offensive linemen who gets away with holding for every game of his career. It's a small penalty, but it's against the rules and affects the outcome of the game. That's what we're dealing with here. Having a tape of the coaches calling signals is an advantage, like it or not. Probably not for the game you're playing at the time, but it's definitlely going to be helpful if you see them a second time around.
Just imagine how much easier their first Super Bowl win was knowing what the Rams would call in the red zone. Sour grapes for me? Absolutely not!! I want every team to be forced to play by the same rules.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Old news, Belichick admitted this when he handed over the tapes.
The Pats are the best run team in the NFL, get over it.
I think the best team in the NFL is the New York Giants. Remember, Manning got to go to DisneyWorld, not Brady.
Just because you win by cheating, does not mean you are better. It just means you are better at cheating.
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Originally posted by rpm
IJust because you win by cheating, does not mean you are better. It just means you are better at cheating.
:aok
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Originally posted by rpm
I think the best team in the NFL is the New York Giants. Remember, Manning got to go to DisneyWorld, not Brady.
I said the best run team in the nfl, not the best team
Just because you win by cheating, does not mean you are better. It just means you are better at cheating.
Well, seeming there was no cheating, there is no need to address this
Again, Spector's two biggest contributors are comcast and the law firm that represents comcast. This is spector putting pressure on the nfl to strike a deal with the cable companies, nothing more.
This would be great as far as i'm concerned, even though there was nothing illegal and it would be a total waste of taxpayer money, could you see other coaches having to answer under oath if they did the same thing? lol! Belichick has already hinted he has film of other coaches doing the same thing, and we all know it happens. Spector knows this, and knows the nfl doesn't want this to happen. He knows if he keeps the pressure on the nfl strikes a deal with comcast and everything gets dropped.
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"Anyway, on the three-hour Super Bowl edition of ESPN's NFL Countdown, Mike Tirico, Ron Jaworski and Steve Young were discussing what can be gained from knowing the other team's plays. Young has previously made his thoughts known, but Jaworksi offered some unique insights, and a slightly different take than Young:
"I'm going to give you a real-life example. I'm going to take you back to 1975 ... I'm playing quarterback for the Los Angeles Rams against the St. Louis Cardinals in a playoff game. We had 'stole' their signals by 'studying' the St. Louis Cardinals defensive coordinator who called the plays.
James Harris, my backup quarterback on the sideline, had a red towel in his hand. Every time I broke the huddle, I would look over to James Harris. For a quarter and a half, I got nothing.
But then in the second quarter, I break the huddle and James Harris throws the red towel on the ground. That was the signal to me that he had gotten their signal that a blitz was coming, the middle of the field was open. I hit Harold Jackson for a long touchdown pass.
There's a huge advantage if you know the coverage scheme."
And that last sentence pretty much says it all. Well, except, that Jaws added this addendum: "To me, it's always part of the game. If you can gain the advantage to help you win, go for it."
Young then asked Jaws point-blank: "So you're okay to go in and sneak in and tape someone's practice?"
Jaworski's response: "Yeah, I'm okay with it. I'm okay with it. I think [the Patriots] pushed the envelope a little bit -- they pushed it -- but I'm okay with it."
Didn't jaworski go on and play for the eagles?? Maybe spector should investigate his own team eh?
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No one cares about the what the "Polish Rifle" has to say.
Taping the walk through practice of the Rams before the Super Bowl is Cheating and is different from using NFL films and studying the signals. Filming the other teams coaching staff from other than the designated areas is also cheating. Why do you think nearly all the coaching staff in the NFL cover there mouths while calling plays?
The fact of the matter remains, the Patriots and Bill Bellichek were both fined by the NFL. The fines and loss of one of there first round picks was because they cheated and were caught doing so.
If they we're not cheating...Why were they fined and penalized? :rofl
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Sixpence, your homer panties are showing. I don't think anyone is denying that teams try to steal each other's signals. Why else would coach's cover their mouths and have multiple people calling plays, we all know that. What is against the rules and cheating is having a freakin' camera man from the team on the sideline taping the coaches. If someone can manage to steal the signals by watching during the game, go for it! It's the other teams fault for not mixing it up better. But when the signals are recorded from the sideline and studied later it's too far. If Belicheck has info on other teams doing it I would love to know about it.
As for Jaworski, one guy saying he isn't bothered by it doesn't mean squat. There are dozens of other talking heads saying the exact opposite. Just because Jaworski thinks it's okay to run covert ops and sneak in to tape practices doesn't make it right.
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Originally posted by Nefarious
Filming the other teams coaching staff from other than the designated areas is also cheating
No, having access to it during the game is cheating, learn the rules. Goodell has stated there was no cheating. But hey, it's fits your argument so run with it.
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Originally posted by Cougar68 [/QUTOE]
What is against the rules and cheating is having a freakin' camera man from the team on the sideline taping the coaches.
Again gainst the rules, but not cheating
If someone can manage to steal the signals by watching during the game, go for it! It's the other teams fault for not mixing it up better. But when the signals are recorded from the sideline and studied later it's too far.
Are you ignorant on purpose? You can tape anything, but it has to be from designated areas to make sure the coaching staff does not have access to it during the game. You can study it all you want after the game
If Belicheck has info on other teams doing it I would love to know about it.
every team has film on every other team, now you know about it
As for Jaworski, one guy saying he isn't bothered by it doesn't mean squat.
He said more than that, he said he did it
Look, here is the rule for you:
"Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."
You see the rule? Not prohibited, but prohibited from areas accessible to staff during the game. Are you getting it yet?
Again, you can tape anything from designated areas and watch it all you want after the game. They don't want cameras in areas they can't monitor, they don't want any perception of cheating? Are you starting to understand now? Of course not, you have an agenda and facts mean nothing to you.
Before they took the camera, they watched the photographer for eight minutes. Why? Because they wanted to see if the coaching staff was having any contact with the camera man. That would have been cheating But there was no contact, that's why Goodell said there was no cheating during the jets game
And homer panties? Are you not the one during the season who had to do a tap dance? Remember when the Titans were accused of adding all that sand to the field against the colts? Are you not the one who said it was because the field was all tore up from college and other events when in fact they had just installed new field turf?
Oh yeah, that was you, imagine that
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this continued argument is so rediculous. Who the fluck even cares anymore.
Personally I think the idiot that just sued the Pats, Kraft, and Bellichick is further proof that too many people want a free nickel.
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You know, New Englanders have won 3 super bowls and 2 world series in the last 7 years. You'd think by they way they've reacted to getting out played and out coached by the Giants that the curse of the Bambino not only lives on but is more heart-breaking than ever before.
Get over it.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
You know, New Englanders have won 3 super bowls and 2 world series in the last 7 years. You'd think by they way they've reacted to getting out played and out coached by the Giants that the curse of the Bambino not only lives on but is more heart-breaking than ever before.
Get over it.
Just one more, just for Rip
http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=27384
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Originally posted by Sixpence
No, having access to it during the game is cheating, learn the rules. Goodell has stated there was no cheating. But hey, it's fits your argument so run with it.
So why were they fined and penalized?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Again gainst the rules, but not cheating
Wow, you got a strange definition of cheating.:huh
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What is against the rules and cheating is having a freakin' camera man from the team on the sideline taping the coaches.
Again gainst the rules, but not cheating
I guess it all depends on what the definition of is is. :huh [/b]
If someone can manage to steal the signals by watching during the game, go for it! It's the other teams fault for not mixing it up better. But when the signals are recorded from the sideline and studied later it's too far.
Are you ignorant on purpose? You can tape anything, but it has to be from designated areas to make sure the coaching staff does not have access to it during the game. You can study it all you want after the game
The issue is that the tapes were made from the Patsies' sidelines! That's the illegal part!! From what I understand, we're not talking about a
focused camera from the top of the stadium, it was from the sidelines.
If Belicheck has info on other teams doing it I would love to know about it.
every team has film on every other team, now you know about it
Yes of course every team has film on every other team. What I want to know is if every team has illegal film on every other team. That's the issue here!
As for Jaworski, one guy saying he isn't bothered by it doesn't mean squat.
He said more than that, he said he did it
He said he taped defensive signals from the sidelines? I must've missed that in the quote. It appeared to me that he said they worked on stealing game signals during practice. No big deal! He wasn't talking about them having a video camera on the sidelines, which again is the issue we're talking about here.
Look, here is the rule for you:
"Videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."
You see the rule? Not prohibited, but prohibited from areas accessible to staff during the game. Are you getting it yet?
I added emphasis on the sidelines for you, that's the issue
And homer panties? Are you not the one during the season who had to do a tap dance? Remember when the Titans were accused of adding all that sand to the field against the colts? Are you not the one who said it was because the field was all tore up from college and other events when in fact they had just installed new field turf?
Oh yeah, that was you, imagine that [/B]
Yep, that was me. Figured since the local sports shows had been talking about it all week I might be able to pass on some of the information. Not opinion, information that was given out by groundskeeepers at the stadium. And FYI, the Titans' field is not field turf, it's real grass which is why turf issues always creep up late in the season. Honestly that's a pretty pathetic point to call me a homer on. Just because i gave out info about the team I follow closely? You're the one toting Goodell's line here.