Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: BaldEagl on February 15, 2008, 07:49:14 PM
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I'm considering buying a new machine. Before I post the parts list, let me explain a few things.
When I bought my first machine in 1996, it was about one step below the top of the line at the time. In it's final configuration:
IBM
150 MB PII
32 MB RAM
2 MB on-board video
Soundblaster sound card
4 GB HD
Windows 95
Sadly, technology was advancing quickly and within 2 years it was obsolete but I stretched it another year. Then I bought my second machine, again, about one step below the then current top of the line. This was in 1997 and it is still the machine I'm using today. In it's current configuration:
Dell Dimension T-600
600 MB PIII
512 MB PC100/133 SRAM
64 MB G-Force MX-440
Soundblaster Live Value
2x 120 GB Western Digital ATA 100 HD's
Windows 98
Yes, I know it's pitiful by today's standards but the configuration is clean and I still get 15-35 fps with it in almost all situations in-game (Aces High II). Beyond that, my financial condition over the past several years has been strained at best, and while I don’t see an immediate end to this, I'm close to finally biting the bullet and upgrading my machine.
That said, I don't want to buy something cheap just to get something. I want something with solid current-state performance and the flexibility to be able to upgrade it well into the future (who knows, it might have to last me the next ten years). To that end, I've spent the past month and a half searching, researching, weighing pros and cons and price, and think I've come up with what I'm looking for.
I'm literally going to have to start from scratch with everything as the technology in my current machine is now obsolete. Because of that, I'm going to keep my current machine intact and keep it for... well... I'm not sure but I'll just keep it for now. I will transfer my 19" Viewsonic CRT monitor to the new machine for now and pull my Sony Trinitron 17" out of storage for the old machine.
What I'd like to know is;
Are there places where I can gain a significant savings without a significant hit to performance or future upgrade possibilities?
Are there places where, with a small additional investment I'll gain a lot in terms of performance or future upgrade possibilities?
Is there an obviously better choice among any of these components that I’ve missed?
Is everything I've picked out compatible?
I'm not planning on over clocking at this point. I don't want to void any warranties. Can I over clock at some later date (say after warranties expire)? If so that’s also a future upgrade I would consider.
As far as a new JS goes, I'm a lefty and the choices are extremely limited (wish I could get my MS Sidewinder to work but it's a game port), plus, my choice was budget related for now.
As to the HD’s, I prefer a dual HD set-up; one for applications and one for data storage (did I mention I have a very clean configuration on my current machine?)
Here's the list (everything from Newegg for now, I haven't cross-shopped for price yet):
COOLER MASTER CAVALIER 3 CAV-T03-UK Black Aluminum / Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail
Model #: CAV-T03-UK
Item #: N82E16811119074
$59.99
EVGA 132-CK-NF78-A1 LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 780i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
Model #: 132-CK-NF78-A1
Item #: N82E16813188024
$249.99
EVGA 512-P3-N802-AR GeForce 8800GT Superclocked 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail
Model #: 512-P3-N802-AR
Item #: N82E16814130319
$259.99
PC Power & Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V EPS12V 610W Continuous @ 40°C Power Supply - Retail
Model #: Silencer 610 EPS12V
Item #: N82E16817703005
$119.99
Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 Conroe 2.66GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80557E6750 - Retail
Model #: BX80557E6750
Item #: N82E16819115029
$189.99
G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F2-6400CL5D-2GBNQ - Retail
Model #: F2-6400CL5D-2GBNQ
Item #: N82E16820231098
$44.99
SONY Black 1.44MB 3.5" Internal Floppy Drive Windows 98SE/ ME/ 2000/ XP - OEM
Model #: MPF920 Black
Item #: N82E16821103116
$7.99
2x Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3250410AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
Model #: ST3250410AS
Item #: N82E16822148262
$69.99 ea. $139.98
Microsoft ZG6-00006 Black PS/2 Wired Standard Keyboard 500 - Retail
Model #: ZG6-00006
Item #: N82E16823109164
$11.99
Saitek ST290 Joystick - Retail
Model #: ST290
Item #: N82E16826102506
$21.99
Microsoft D66-00069 Black 3 Buttons 1 x Wheel USB + PS/2 Wired Optical Mouse - Retail
Model #: D66-00069
Item #: N82E16826105164
$11.99
ASUS Black SATA DVD-ROM Drive Model DVD-E616A3T - Retail
Model #: DVD-E616A3T
Item #: N82E16827135143
$20.99
ASUS 20X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model DRW-2014L1T - Retail
Model #: DRW-2014L1T
Item #: N82E16827135156
$35.99
Microsoft Windows Vista 32-Bit Home Premium for System Builders Single Pack DVD - OEM
Model #: 66I-00715
Item #: N82E16832116202
$109.99
ALTEC LANSING VS4121BLK 31 Watts 2.1 Speaker - Retail
Model #: VS4121BLK
Item #: N82E16836113017
$79.99
Subtotal: $1,365.84
Comments?
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- HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY recommend not going with Vista unless you absolutely want it for some strange reason. Stick with Windows XP.
- Why the 3.5 floppy drive? Unless you are planning on needing it to setup RAID during the install of Windows XP (Vista you do not need a floppy I believe), ditch it. They are ancient, break often and are mid 1985 technolgy. If you still use floppy disks to store data today....well :rofl
- Everything looks really solid parts wise. I'm an Asus fan, you picked a good processor, good case and good PSU, good video card, good ram.
- Where to save money? Well maybe the motherboard. The Asus 780 SLI is a good solid board, but it is a hefty $250. Unless you plan on going SLI, which really isnt worth its benefits for the cost. From the reviews I've read, the sub $150 Asus boards are kinda of crappy. I'd check out some other brands that offer solid boards in the $100-$150 range. I'd recommend a P35 chipset.
If you go with a cheaper board, you could spend that extra $100-$150 on other parts. Faster processor? 2 more Gb of ram (32bit OS's only recognize 3.5gb). Maybe get a WD raptor drive (these are really nice)?
I'm kind of an audiophile and would not recommend using onboard sound. Hell I think you SB Value would be better off than a lot of onboard sound chipsets out there. $80-$100 or so gets you a SB X-fi gamer or music. Plus you won't have to worry about the onboard chipset stealing CPU performance.
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And btw, I am honestly amazed you can pull off that kind of FPS with that computer you are currently using.
Whatever parts you do decide on, once you get it built...it will be like turning in that Gremlin for BMW 7 series.
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I have to agree with fulmar. 3.5 " floppys are obsolete unless you must have one to setup raid. Can't think of anything else you'd need one for.
I've tried several different versions of onboard sound over the years.
None of them were ever as good as any budget PCI board by sound blaster.
Normally either you have mic problems, or in game sound problems.
Not to mention they use a LOT more cpu cycles, robbing you of frames just when you pull the trigger and need it smoothest.
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OK, I pulled the floppy drive, switched to Win XP Home and added:
Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer 7.1 Channels PCI Interface Sound Card - Retail
Model #: 70SB073A00000
Item #: N82E16829102006
$80.99
I also pulled 1 of the HD's for now to accomodate the sound card from a budget perspective. Overall I've slightly lowered the total price (less than $20).
I'm kind of set on the mobo because of the 2x PCI x16 2.0 slots (GPU interface is also 2.0), and the future ability to SLI. My thought was that, if I'm building for the future, the mobo and CPU were core pieces in that strategy. Is this thinking flawed?
Anything else?
BTW, I'd still like to know if I'll be able to OC at some future point. I'm guessing the answer is yes.
Thanks for the help so far (and to those who helped in the other thread regarding memory).
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I would say check the price on Windows XP Pro, to see how close it is to the home version. The pro version is a bit more robust, in my opinion.
I would suspect that by the time you seriously consider SLI, there would be better mtbs out there, so I'd say the planning for SLI for this board probably wouldn't get you much.
Now I'm not an audiophile, hell waaay too many guns and rock bands put an end to that... :) I'd suggest you hold off on buying a sound card and see how the on-board audio works first. On-board sound seems to work for me just fine and it will save you bucks, that you could use elsewhere. If you try it and decide it isn't doing a good job, then get the sound card.
So far the only complaint, I've heard from my squad-mates is that I talk to loud on the mike, (of course you'll have to ask them to be certain... :) ). And that's just a mike adjustment. On-board audio has been fine for me.
Now I've been an Asus fan for years myself and have had very good results for both myself and my clients using the 'under $200.00 boards. I'm currently running an Asus dual Xeon mtb and it's been great and even runs Vista, (not that I'd want to just yet). I'm not familiar with the mtb you selected though, so I don't know how it compares. I would take a hard look at the Asus P5 series of boards. The P5E series has received some nice reviews, although I'd probably go with the 35 chipset instead of the 38chipset.
Check for some reviews of the 35 chipset mtbs and see how your mtb compares against the Asus boards before you finalize your choice. Your board uses a different chipset so you'll have to do a rough compare, but it should help.
I am not a fan of Raid at all. It protects you against hardware failures, but not software failures, ie; windows corruption, etc, etc. And you're more likely to have a windows corruption then a hard drive failure. Less then 4 weeks ago I had to recover files from a customer's system that was running RAID. Windows got corrupted and the RAID system mirrored the corruption to the second RAID drive, so there was no recovery possible. I was forced to use file recovery software to recover his data.
I then set him up with a non-raid system, and used Acronis True Image to create a full image backup of the system and data. This protects against both hard drive and windows corruption and IMHO, is better than using RAID.
I'm also not much of an overclocking fan. I've never felt the need to stress any of my systems out to the limit just to squeese a little more out of the cpu. Never felt it was worth the cost for what ya got back, but that's something you'll have to decide for yourself.
Other then that I think you'll be wery wery happy with your choices.
Wabbit
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That true wabbit about RAID 1 and 5. I use RAID 0 for the speed because I do not own any raptors. It doubles my odds of a crash if one of the HD's goes bad, but I'm meticulous with my back ups so the risks are really nullified for me.
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depending on what your "job requirements" are, those floppy 3.5 drives are sometimes needed.
I have 3 different software programs that have encrypted floppy disc that writes from the floppy to the hard drive, and vice versa if you need to remove the software to install on another HD.
no floppy, no use of software, no way to register, insert license ( only have 3 keys on disk ), no way to install or unstall or upgrade when needed.....
then you can make multiple kinds of boot disk, start up disk, batch files ( like for CH product users with analog equipment ) etc....
just saying.
the below mitsumi floppy/card reader is very nice option:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16821104104
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$50 more for XP Pro ($140 vs $90). Is it worth it?
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XP Pro will be supported from Microsoft until 2014. All other versions of XP will lose official support either this year or next year. I cannot remember.
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Losing support doesn't mean it will stop working.. always good to keep in mind.
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A floppy drive has its uses. Including MEMtest and certain drivers.
I suggest getting an 8-in-1 reader that's also built into the floppy. Mine cost $11 on newegg and I use the card readers more than the floppy (which justifies its presence)
EDIT: TC just posted exactly what I use! LOL!
There's a couple of common sense tips I could give you on that rig listed.
Pare back where you can. For example, your motherboard is one of the most expensive motherboards I've EVER seen. $250!??! HOLY CRAP! Dude, if you can find something that accepts your other hardware (SATA, PCIe 2.0, etc) go find a lesser-priced board. Seriously. If you can find a board for $125 even, maybe $150, that's a hefty chunk of change shaved off, right there!
You have 2x 250GB drives. These are SATA 3.0. They're already much faster than IDE. IMO the only reason you'd get more than one is for a RAID, and doing a RAID you really need between 3 and 5 drives. No reason to get 2. I kinda doubt most folks have 500 GBs of stuff on their hard drives. Not even most video editors. Hey, if you really need it, sure. But if you currently only use 50GB on your HD NOW, why get 500GBs? You can buy more drives later, as needed.
You have a DVD-ROM and a DVD-R+/-. Might be a simple question, but "can't you just use the DVD-R as a DVD-ROM?" Won't save much, but every bit counts.
You've got an $80 set of 2.1 speakers. That's awfully hefty for a simple 2.1. I've seen larger systems for less. My Boston Digital Ba735 cost about $30 when I got them. They're older, sure, but they still sound fairly good. I like listening to music on my PC more than my headphones because of the quality difference. You can really shave off half that price if you *only* want 2.1 speakers. My speakers are 8 years old and still going strong, so don't think cheap = bad.
You can get by with the onboard sound just fine. I did. I reinstalled my sound card to get the extra gameport (one for my stick, one for my pedals!), and for the firewire port, but otherwise I'd just be using onboard. I had no problems with it.
You can really trim back the price in a lot of areas. For example: I won't say not to get that video card, because you really want a good video card, by hypothetically you could get one just about as good for $180, that saves $70 right there! Mind you some folks like their brand so I'll leave video choice up to you, but look over everything and think about how much it costs and whether its luxury or necessity.
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Personally, I would spend the extra for Windows XP Pro.
Do a search for the differences between the two and you should find a lot of info on that to help you make your decision.
Wabbit
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I'm not setting up RAID. As I stated earlier, the reason that I've used 2 HD's in the past is to use one for applications and the other for data storage. Since I'm loading/unloading/modifying files on the storage drive all the time, this allows me to run longer before I have to defrag on the application drive. I'm currently using ~67gigs almost evenly split between the drives although some of that will not transfer over to the new machine. It seemed the value was decent with the drives I selected and I was steering toward a two-drive set up but I'll revisit (also see my comment in the next paragraph).
Having spent over 20 years in the music industry, I have to admit to being a bit of an audiophile, thus the speaker purchase. I've got a set of Altecs on my current machine (that I got when I bought it) and I just love them. I was looking for something with a full 20-20K frequency range, a decent S/N ratio and reasonable power. I only need 2.1's (what I have now). I don't really have a good location for rear or side speakers and, having never had them I won't miss what I've never had :) I've been looking at actually upgrading this part of the system. Either that or downgrade considerably and use my current Altecs with the new system. Either way I do not want to be dissapointed with audio performance. I also use a wireless transmitter/reciever to pump audio to my home stereo at the other end of the house (the random play feature on a PC is too nice... and I can see a lot more of my 2000+ CD's migrating to my computer). Is this enough reason to keep the sound card?
I'll definately re-visit the mobo given everyone's responses and see what I can find.
I've already added the multi-drive that TC and Krusty suggested (great idea) and I'll consider eliminating the second DVD-ROM drive (at least for now).
Thanks for all the input so far.
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How old is the monitor you are planning to re-use? Going from an old machine with windows 98 to a new machine running XP, your old monitor may not be workable.
cheers,
RTR
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My monitor is ~3 years old.
As to that sound card question, if music playback warrants a seperate sound card, is the one I selected the right one, or is there something better for music playback, or, would I be better off to go low-end for my current machine and swap my Live Value into the new machine (and if so, will I have trouble finding drivers for XP since it was built during the Win 95/98 days)
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Originally posted by RTR
How old is the monitor you are planning to re-use? Going from an old machine with windows 98 to a new machine running XP, your old monitor may not be workable.
cheers,
RTR
I've never heard of this. I've used monitors from 1994 just to power up a system to see if it worked (that was running XP).
I've never used MEMTest with a floppy disk...I've always used it on a CD.
If you are an audiophile, then I highly recommend getting an X-FI sound card. I've never heard a good onboard sound chipset. I used to have an SB Audigy Platnium for years until this last January when I bought an X-FI card. I didn't think I would notice a big difference, but it was noticeable.
As for the speakers. I'm not a fan of computer speakers. For a surround sound system for a TV, I generally go pretty large and spend the $$$. For computer used, I have some older Altec Lansings that I rarely used. If I'm listening to music or playing games - I have my Sennheiser headphones.
When it comes to computer speakers...IMO, a good set of headpones can't be beat.
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Yep its odd I agree, but nonetheless when I upgraded a few years ago and figured I'd save a bit and use my old monitor it just wouldn't work. Worked fine on the old machine though.
Mind you, I upgraded from "steam driven" to "coal fired" back then.;)
cheers,
RTR
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OK BaldEagl.. That is a sweet system, but in all honesty.. VERY MUCH OVERKILL for an AH system.
What exactly do you intend on using this system for?
You can shave the price of everything by AT LEAST HALF, and it's still going to be DOZENS AND DOZENS OF TIMES BETTER than your current setup.
Here's my deal:
I bought an AMD 2200XP system a few years back for about $400.
Just over a year ago I upgraded to this (Reusing the old case, Power Supply, XP Home OS)
-ASRock DualVSTA Motherboard
-E6300 Core-duo Intel Processor (1.83GHZ)
-160GB SATA HardDrive
-CD-RW/DVD-ROM Combo Drive
-2GB DDR2 Ram (Forget exact speed)
-Nvidia 6200 256MB AGP Video
Total investment of this upgrade = less than $400
Last month, I upgraded my Power supply to a 600Watt, and upgraded my Video to a 7900GS PCI-Express... This upgrade cost me about $150
I also purchased a Saitek X52 to replace my aged X45 joystick, but that's not really important to the discussion.
So I figure.. $550... If I had to buy a case and XP HOME this might run another $100 or so.. so basically you can have a very sweet system for under $700.
With graphics maxed out (1280X1024, 1024 textures - Hi Res, All ingame graphics set to quality).. I get a solid 75FPS about 90% of the time. Add in a lot of smoke or fog or fire.. and a huge furball.. it MIGHT drop to 60-65. Keep in mind, the monitor's refresh rate is 75FPS, so anything above this is wasted anyway.
Even Microsoft FSX at about 2/3 quality settings I average 20-25FPS.
Again, this is about one step down in technology, but it's expensive to stay current. XP Pro has some more features to it, but for normal computing needs, unless you need it specifically for your hardware to work (Quad core processor for example).. I really don't see much point to spending the extra money.
Say what you want, but I don't really factor in future upgrading in the parts I buy. These days you just about have to replace the motherboard anyway for any kind of significant upgrades... and this usually means different RAM and Processor anyway... Perhaps if I couldn't work on them myself I might think differently, but I'd rather spend less money on what I need NOW, rather then double (or triple) the price for something I *MIGHT* need later.
Forget about SLI... even in the future... it's 'flawed' in the fact that the bang for the buck is about as poor as possible. It's kind of like spending $1000 on an upgrade for your car to add 10Horsepower.. It just doesn't make sense, especially when you can buy the next generation video card for about the same price (in the future mind you) and get a MUCH better improvement, than two of the older generation cards.
But then again, aside from FSX and AH... the computer for the most part is used for Email and Surfing... I have a feeling your probably in the same boat. I wouldn't feel comfortable recommending the "Latest and Greatest" for a whole lot more money if you're really not going to need any of it.
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Bald,
you do not need to even be above the 50% average of PC builds to obtain 1280 x 1024 screen rez / 70 refresh rate, 1024 hi-rez texture packages
My old system, the one I am useing right now to type this, is roughly 5 yrs old or older.whels gave me most of the orginal components when he built him a new one.
this pc consist of:
AMD Socket A athlonXP2800+
ASUS A7N8X-E Deluxe MB
Antec TruePower II 650 watt PSU ( 1 of the last GOOD Antecs )
1 gig Corsair pc3200 DDR Ram
(2) Hitachi HD's SATA I 160 gig setup in RAID 1 ( mirrored )
Ati X800Pro 256 Meg AGP Slot video Card
ASUS DVD-RW DL IDE Burner
ASUS DVD-Rom IDE Drive
Mitsumi Floppy/card reader
PCI Audiphile Sound card ( for recording/mixing purposes to work with my - digidesign protools, reason, ableton, Line 6 TonePort music hobby stuff )
PCI Creative Labs SoundBlaster PCI512 ( used mainly for the analog gameport/midi port only )
DELL UltraSharp 19" LCD Monitor in DVI ( 70 refrsh is max it allows )
most of this stuff was already used, I only bought new the HD's, DVD drives, and Whels sent me a replacement NEW MB, when the 1st MSI MB arrived dead......everything else is/was second hand......
as I said, I get a solid 70 FPS when flying Aces High in 1280x1024 res using the 1024 hi-rz texture pack...... only in scenarios with multiple people launching at same time or heavy furballs 25 to 30 + in same area under roughly 3 or 4k of each other , do I experience a dip to around 55 to 65 fps this includes fog, smoke, lots of fires etc.......sliders are maxed toward left toward detail.....
note* that my WinXP Pro is either running 28 to 29 processes at maximum or most times between 19 to 22 processes, though.......
so to get the maximum out of the game, you do not need TOPSHELF PC Build..... I do however run a 6,000 meg pagefile ( virtual memory manually set in advanced settings )
hope this helps
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I'm considering buying a new machine. Before I post the parts list, let me explain a few things.
When I bought my first machine in 1996, it was about one step below the top of the line at the time. In it's final configuration:
IBM
150 MB PII
32 MB RAM
2 MB on-board video
Soundblaster sound card
4 GB HD
Windows 95
Sadly, technology was advancing quickly and within 2 years it was obsolete but I stretched it another year. Then I bought my second machine, again, about one step below the then current top of the line. This was in 1997 and it is still the machine I'm using today. In it's current configuration:
Dell Dimension T-600
600 MB PIII
512 MB PC100/133 SRAM
64 MB G-Force MX-440
Soundblaster Live Value
2x 120 GB Western Digital ATA 100 HD's
Windows 98
Yes, I know it's pitiful by today's standards but the configuration is clean and I still get 15-35 fps with it in almost all situations in-game (Aces High II). Beyond that, my financial condition over the past several years has been strained at best, and while I don’t see an immediate end to this, I'm close to finally biting the bullet and upgrading my machine.
That said, I don't want to buy something cheap just to get something. I want something with solid current-state performance and the flexibility to be able to upgrade it well into the future (who knows, it might have to last me the next ten years). To that end, I've spent the past month and a half searching, researching, weighing pros and cons and price, and think I've come up with what I'm looking for.
I'm literally going to have to start from scratch with everything as the technology in my current machine is now obsolete. Because of that, I'm going to keep my current machine intact and keep it for... well... I'm not sure but I'll just keep it for now. I will transfer my 19" Viewsonic CRT monitor to the new machine for now and pull my Sony Trinitron 17" out of storage for the old machine.
What I'd like to know is;
Are there places where I can gain a significant savings without a significant hit to performance or future upgrade possibilities?
Are there places where, with a small additional investment I'll gain a lot in terms of performance or future upgrade possibilities?
Is there an obviously better choice among any of these components that I’ve missed?
Is everything I've picked out compatible?
I'm not planning on over clocking at this point. I don't want to void any warranties. Can I over clock at some later date (say after warranties expire)? If so that’s also a future upgrade I would consider.
As far as a new JS goes, I'm a lefty and the choices are extremely limited (wish I could get my MS Sidewinder to work but it's a game port), plus, my choice was budget related for now.
As to the HD’s, I prefer a dual HD set-up; one for applications and one for data storage (did I mention I have a very clean configuration on my current machine?)
Here's the list (everything from Newegg for now, I haven't cross-shopped for price yet):
COOLER MASTER CAVALIER 3 CAV-T03-UK Black Aluminum / Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail
Model #: CAV-T03-UK
Item #: N82E16811119074
$59.99
EVGA 132-CK-NF78-A1 LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 780i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
Model #: 132-CK-NF78-A1
Item #: N82E16813188024
$249.99
EVGA 512-P3-N802-AR GeForce 8800GT Superclocked 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail
Model #: 512-P3-N802-AR
Item #: N82E16814130319
$259.99
PC Power & Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V EPS12V 610W Continuous @ 40°C Power Supply - Retail
Model #: Silencer 610 EPS12V
Item #: N82E16817703005
$119.99
Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 Conroe 2.66GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80557E6750 - Retail
Model #: BX80557E6750
Item #: N82E16819115029
$189.99
G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F2-6400CL5D-2GBNQ - Retail
Model #: F2-6400CL5D-2GBNQ
Item #: N82E16820231098
$44.99
SONY Black 1.44MB 3.5" Internal Floppy Drive Windows 98SE/ ME/ 2000/ XP - OEM
Model #: MPF920 Black
Item #: N82E16821103116
$7.99
2x Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3250410AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
Model #: ST3250410AS
Item #: N82E16822148262
$69.99 ea. $139.98
Microsoft ZG6-00006 Black PS/2 Wired Standard Keyboard 500 - Retail
Model #: ZG6-00006
Item #: N82E16823109164
$11.99
Saitek ST290 Joystick - Retail
Model #: ST290
Item #: N82E16826102506
$21.99
Microsoft D66-00069 Black 3 Buttons 1 x Wheel USB + PS/2 Wired Optical Mouse - Retail
Model #: D66-00069
Item #: N82E16826105164
$11.99
ASUS Black SATA DVD-ROM Drive Model DVD-E616A3T - Retail
Model #: DVD-E616A3T
Item #: N82E16827135143
$20.99
ASUS 20X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model DRW-2014L1T - Retail
Model #: DRW-2014L1T
Item #: N82E16827135156
$35.99
Microsoft Windows Vista 32-Bit Home Premium for System Builders Single Pack DVD - OEM
Model #: 66I-00715
Item #: N82E16832116202
$109.99
ALTEC LANSING VS4121BLK 31 Watts 2.1 Speaker - Retail
Model #: VS4121BLK
Item #: N82E16836113017
$79.99
Subtotal: $1,365.84
Comments?
First of all, Vista is worthless and will only degrade your gaming experience across the board. Stick with 2000 or XP. If AH is the ONLY game you play, then you don't really need all this stuff you've listed and don't need to spend 1400 bucks.
If you go with a late generation Pentium 4 (such as a P4 3.2 HT with 800mhz FSB and 1 Meg L2 cache) along with 2 gigs of ram and a decent videocard (something along the lives of a Geforce 6800GS/GT or better) then you'll be actually ahead of a lot of people who play AH. The latest and greatest truly is not required for AH. I can build a machine for about 300 bones that will keep up with the best of them. If you're on a budget, this is the way to go.
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The guy wants something that is going to last him a while. I hope Aces High doesnt look the same way it does it 2 years. Why not build a system that will be somewhat ready for stuff 2 years down the line?
That said, I don't want to buy something cheap just to get something. I want something with solid current-state performance and the flexibility to be able to upgrade it well into the future (who knows, it might have to last me the next ten years). To that end, I've spent the past month and a half searching, researching, weighing pros and cons and price, and think I've come up with what I'm looking for.
If he has budgeted himself to spend $1300 with his finances, why not let him splurge a bit? He's suffered with a P3 600mhz for how long? Yeah your $300 system will get you 60fps in AH now, but thats now the point there. There's a whole 'nother realm of games out there that he has missed over the years that he ALSO may enjoy. Or perhaps that game down the line?
Spread your wings and fly!
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I wouldn't recomment the ASRock dual775-VSTA. I have it. It's really great for an "upgrade board" (where you keep all your old parts) but it only supports 2GB max RAM, and the PCIe port is really 4x. It'll run 16x cards but benchmarks show 10% less performance than a full 16x slot. Also, it does NOT support PCIe x16 2.0, so no Ge8800s, no ATI 3850s or 3870s (<-- that right there pisses me off! I wanted to upgrade to a 3870 but I can't!)
Good for upgrades, not recommended for a fresh build!
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Thanks for all the help and responses everyone. I have been re-looking at the entire build, taking everyones comments into consideration and have changed it a bit and brought the cost down modestly (currently ~1150). I'll re-post the new configuration when I get a chance.
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OK, here's where I am right now. I've broken this into three possible phases (you'll see). I'm still open to comments/revisions. I've left my own comments under most components.
Phase 1 (the core machine):
COOLER MASTER CAVALIER 3 CAV-T03-UK Black Aluminum / Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
$59.99
I looked at another Cooler Master case but for only $10 less I decided I liked this one better.
ABIT IP35 Pro LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard
$174.99
Forgetting about SLI and taking into consideration the advice to stick with the Intel P-35 chipset, I looked at a lot of mobos. It came down to this or one of two Gigabyte boards and I settled on this (I couldn't find an Asus board that I felt comfortable with). I'm most open to suggestions in this area.
EVGA 320-P2-N811-AR GeForce 8800GTS 320MB 320-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card
$219.99
Since the new board doesn't have a PCIE x16 2.0 slot, I took the opportunity to save a few bucks here. I checked over the ratings at TomsHardware very closely. This is a top rated NVidea card behind the one I had originally chosen and the GTX at twice the price and it's an 8800 which I'm pretty set on getting.
PC Power & Cooling Silencer 610 EPS12V EPS12V 610W Continuous @ 40°C Power Supply
$119.99
Plenty of power for today and for any upgrades in the future (see possible phase 3).
Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 Conroe 2.66GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80557E6750
$189.99
I'm pretty well stuck on this proccessor. From a cost/value perspective Intel seems to have really nailed it. You get exactly what you pay for with them.
G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F2-6400CL5D-2GBNQ
$44.99
Inexpensive DDR2800 memory.
Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3250410AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
$69.99
Best cost/value relationship within my needs and price range.
Microsoft ZG6-00006 Black PS/2 Wired Standard Keyboard 500
$11.99
Saitek ST290 Joystick
$21.99
I'm a lefty.
Microsoft N71-00007S Black 3 Buttons 1 x Wheel USB Wired Optical Wheel Mouse
$9.99
ASUS 20X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model DRW-2014L1T
$35.99
Creative Sound Blaster SB0570 Audigy SE 7.1 Channels PCI Interface Sound Card
$29.99
Settled here because this was Creatives top card until the X-Fi's came out. It's proven, and now inexpensive and if I do have to switch it out it's only $30.
Microsoft Windows XP Home With SP2B 1 Pack
$89.99
I'm guessing that one day (after some fixes) I will upgrade to Vista (or whatever MS comes out with if they bail on it) and didn't really see any significant benefits to XP Pro that would make a difference to me, but I'm willing to listen to compelling arguments.
ALTEC LANSING VS4221 35 Watts 2.1 Speaker
$74.99
I like to listen to music (sometimes through my PC) and I like Altecs.
Subtotal: $1,154.86
Possible phase 2:
SAMSUNG 226BW Black 22" 2 ms (GTG) DVI Widescreen LCD Monitor
$318.99
Wicked awsome reponse time for an LCD monitor.
Subtotal: $318.99
Possible phase 3:
G.SKILL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F2-6400CL5D-2GBNQ
$44.99
2 more gigs of RAM.
MITSUMI Black 1.44MB 3.5" Internal USB 2.0 Internal USB 2.0 digital card reader with Floppy Drive
$18.99
The floppy I got rid of.
Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3250410AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
$69.99
A second storage drive.
ASUS Black SATA DVD-ROM Drive Model DVD-E616A3T
$20.99
A second optical drive.
Subtotal: $154.96
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If you can get an Audigy 2, they're not that much more expensive, but are supposed to be a better card in regards to software support, digital speakers support, chipset, and some other areas. I have an Audigy1 and found these out while trying to find drivers for my audigy1.
Tip: There aren't any! They're all for audigy 2! But creativelabs.com has an autoupdater featuer much like Windows Update (only, just for sound cards)
Edit: Just doing a quick search, seems they're hard to find. Must be the xifis driving them off the market.
P.S. I'm not seeing any obvious conflicts with the hardware you've selected, for what it's worth.
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I haven't seen a Audigy 2 for sale in a store (not online) in probably 1-2 years. It's all X-FI now.
Baldy, as far as that 8800GTS 320mb goes...it's a good card, but the ATI 3870 at about $230 will beat it. Plus the 3870 has the 10.1 Directx compliant. This would be the best bang for the buck in this price range.
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The Geforce 9600GT at $170 is faster than Radeon 3870 making it best bang for buck at the moment.
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http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/02/21/nvidia_geforce_9600_gt/page20.html
Nvidia's GeForce 9600 GT Tested
Florian Charpentier
February 21, 2008 09:09
Conclusion
The bottom line is that the performance of this GeForce 9600 GT came as a pleasant surprise. Despite the chip having only 64 stream processors, 38% lower processing power, and 33% fewer transistors, gaming performance was only 12% below the 8800 GT on average. And it was even better than the 8800 GT 256 MB, by an amount ranging from 1% without antialiasing, up to 45% with it enabled. The 8800 GT 256 MB is greatly hampered by its 256 MB of memory, and these results mean that it is really no longer even worth considering! Meaning that it was an extremely good choice to put 512 MB of memory on the 9600 GT, even if that doesn't account for everything, since the 8800 GT has the same amount.
The upshot is that the 9600 GT puts Nvidia in a much more favorable position to compete with AMD. First, the HD 3850 is beaten hands down performance-wise, since even compared to its 512 MB version (which can be found on sale at 165-170 €, the expected MSRP for the 9600 GT), performance was approximately 15% better. Only the 256 MB version still has no competition, given its 140 € price point.
As for the HD 3870, currently available starting at 180 €, we can only recommend it to people who don't use antialiasing - with that restriction, its performance remains better than the 9600 GT's (by 5%). Once antialiasing is enabled, the performance spread is the same, but this time in favor of the 9600 GT, due to AMD's uncorrected ROPs. But in any event, we can only congratulate Nvidia on the quality of the 9600 GT's performance, especially considering that it has close to 2.5 times less raw power than the HD 3870! So the GeForce 9600 GT currently has more arguments in its favor than the HD 3870 - but keeping in mind the aggressive pricing policy that AMD is capable of wielding, that situation could evolve down the road.
As proof of that last statement, AMD called us less than 24 hours before the end of this test to announce a sudden and significant drop in the price of its Radeon HD 3000 series. In the US, the MSRP of the HD 3870 will go from $245 to $189, and the HD 3850 512 MB from $199 to $169! That will again put AMD on top where price is concerned, compared to Nvidia's offering.[/b]
For now we have to see how Nvidia will react to the news... It's an unending war and it's hard to stay on top of. But in this particular battle there's no doubt who the winner is: the consumer!
Nvidia GeForce 9600 GT
This card is a valid replacement for the GeForce 8800 GT 256 MB, and is the best low-cost solution for gamers who play with antialiasing enabled. Without the filters enabled, its performance drops behind the HD 3870 (while still staying ahead of the HD 3850s), but its price is expected to be slightly lower than that of the AMD card.
Pros
Performance/price ratio
The best card in its price range for performance with antialiasing enabled
Reduced power consumption and noise
Cons
Performance below that of the HD 3870 without filters
Not really any more a "GeForce 9" card than the 8800 GTs
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Well, a month after posting this I went ahead and ordered my new system last night. The basic system ended up slightly over my original budget and then, I figured that as long as I was going for it I'd add a new LCD monitor too (and I just got a raise at work :) ). Here's what I ended up with:
Cooler Master Cavalier Case
EVGA NVIDEA 780i Motherboard (expensive but great reviews and I wanted the PCIe x16 2.0 slots)
Intel Core 2 Duo 2.66 Gb CPU
EVGA 512 mb 8800 GTS GPU (upgraded from 8800 GT for a little more power and the cooling exhaust port)
Kingston 2 Gb High Performance Gaming DDRAM
Seagate Barracuda 250 Gb 7200 RPM/16 mb cache SATA HD
ASUS DVD-RW
Creative X-Fi Gamer Fatality Soundcard (upgraded for the gameport for my MS Sidewinder 3D Pro)
PC Power & Cooling 750W PSU
Windows XP Pro (Thanks for the recommendations and comments on this)
LG 22" Widescreen LCD Monitor (2ms response/3000 contrast)
Klipsch Promedia Speakers (sorry Krusty but I have to have good sound)
Plus, I was digging around last night and discovered I have 13Gb, 60Gb, 120Gb, 160Gb and 200Gb ATA HD's at home (the 160 and 200 are in my current machine but Win98 Disc Defrag will only recognize 120 Gb so they are bigger than I thought they were). I'm going to do some swapping and get the 160 and the 200 in the new machine as storage (for 610 Gb total) and put the 60 and the 120 in the old machine.
Thanks again to everyone for all the comments and suggestions. Even if I didn't take them all, I did carefully consider all of them.
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BaldEagl,
Looks like a great system. What are you going to do for fun now that you’re done with the research. :lol
Like you, I have decided to go with the 8800GTS rather than GT. The performance gain is nice but my major reason is that the GTS has much better cooling. I could see myself getting the GT and then spending more than the difference between the two cards on an after market cooling fan (I had to do that for my present ATI 800XL card at a cost of around $50).
At one point you were going to use the Abit IP35 Pro. That is the card I’m planning to use. Is there anything negative you learned about it other than the lack pf PCI-E 2.0?
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BaldEagl,
Looks like a great system. What are you going to do for fun now that you’re done with the research. :lol
Like you, I have decided to go with the 8800GTS rather than GT. The performance gain is nice but my major reason is that the GTS has much better cooling. I could see myself getting the GT and then spending more than the difference between the two cards on an after market cooling fan (I had to do that for my present ATI 800XL card at a cost of around $50).
At one point you were going to use the Abit IP35 Pro. That is the card I’m planning to use. Is there anything negative you learned about it other than the lack pf PCI-E 2.0?
Nope, I just wanted the 2.0 slots and as long as the only way to get them was in pairs or more, and I'm an NVIDEA type of guy, I thought I may as well get the NVIDEA chipset to go along with them. If I had decided to stay with the P-35 route I almost definately would have bought the Abit board.
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I have found that I need a floppy drive to upgrade BIOS. Am I wrong?
I have to tell you that I really like the abit pro p35 mb. It's around $135 after rebate. It also gets good ratings on Newegg. If cash is no problem I don't see anything wrong with the Asus board. I do wonder why you need 2 Roms. That could be a personal preference though.
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BaldEagl.. did you get your system up and running yet?
Just wondering how it's working out for you?
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I just got it running late tonight and got to try one flight in AH. It ROCKS! I never knew what I was missing. The game graphics were absolutely stunning (at least to me).
I've got anti-aliasing maxed in the NVidea control panel, running a 22" widescreen LCD monitor (3 ms refresh/3000 contrast/60 mhz) @ 1600x1024 res with the game running 512 textures at 1024 res and holding 59 fps solid.
I'm going to try the high-res pack tommorow and let the game control anti-aliasing and see what that's like but at 512 textures with max anti-aliasing the picture is clean and sharp so I'm not sure yet which I'll find better.
I did make the mistake of not setting up a seperate Administrator account in XP though and now it wont let me install my Sidewinder software (Win95 floppy). I'm going to mess with that tomorrow. I bought a Saitek ST290 and used it tonight but it's just not my trusty old Sidewinder and I'm not sure how much new stuff I can adapt to at one time.
[EDIT] Oh, and for my first build I was SO happy that it booted on the first try... :)
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Re; Floppy drives. I have one floppy not installed in anything. If I need a floppy I open up the computer plug it in and use it. Used it one time in 3 years. I quit buying new ones few years ago.
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For $7 I find them still very handy for small file transfers.
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FYI sidewinder requires no software in XP the support is built in.
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Oh, and for my first build I was SO happy that it booted on the first try...
That's reassuring. I have visions of a puff of smoke the first time I start mine. :D
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BaldEagl,
What driver are you using with your 8800GTS? I as I recall there was once some discussion that the older drivers gave better results. That was certainly the case with my ATI 800XLS. It was awful with the newest driver and peformed much better with an older driver.
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Last night I was using the one that shipped on the set-up disc. I updated it today but haven't had a chance to try the new driver out yet.
BTW, stock fan settings, stock Intel CPU fan, stock north bridge fan in a Cooler Master case with a front 80mm and a rear 120mm and it's blowing cool air out the back. I havent set up temp monitering yet so don't know what the actual temps are but I've had the box open quite often and everything is cool to the touch. You can't hear anything running except the HD on occasion. Very happy camper so far :)
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Last night I was using the one that shipped on the set-up disc. I updated it today but haven't had a chance to try the new driver out yet.
BTW, stock fan settings, stock Intel CPU fan, stock north bridge fan in a Cooler Master case with a front 80mm and a rear 120mm and it's blowing cool air out the back. I havent set up temp monitering yet so don't know what the actual temps are but I've had the box open quite often and everything is cool to the touch. You can't hear anything running except the HD on occasion. Very happy camper so far :)
Booted first time, you pro you. Glad to hear you got it up and running. Very rewarding isn't it.
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Booted first time, you pro you. Glad to hear you got it up and running. Very rewarding isn't it.
Yes, although I was astonished how sparse the instructions were with most of the parts. I started out trying to read the installation instructions and follow them but it was actually a little confusing. Once I set them aside and just started slapping things together and plugging in wires where it looked like they'd fit it went quite easy.
Condor, I tried out the game again last night with the new drivers installed. I also D/L'd the high res texture pack and set it to run 1024 textures, pre-loaded into memory (~6xx mb without skins). I went into the game and all was well but when I went from the hanger to the tower I got a black screen (no way out) and had to power down with the on/off switch. I then opened the NVidea control panel and re-set a couple of options to allow the application to optimize settings, unchecked the pre-load textures into memory at the game video settings and went back in. No more problems. FR is still pegged at 59 solid with all graphic sliders maxed (I thought LCD's didn't have refresh rates but both the NVidea control panel and the game seem to like to set mine at 60).
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BaldEagl,
Thanks. Sounds good. I'll have to reference your experience when I get mine together.
You have more guts than me on the building approach. I realized that there would be little in the way of instructions so I've been searching the net looking for "how to build a computer" guides. As it turns out there are plenty. I found a step by step guide in tha Abit forum that is very detailed. I also have a squadmate, Homeboy, who has done this several times. I'll probably (read definitley) be on the phone to him a lot.
I'm just holding off a little for availability of the e8400 CPU.
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Great news BaldEagl! Congratulations on the successful install! :aok
I built my system a year ago (Mar 2007). At the time, Bruv119 was building almost the same machine I was. If I remember correctly, we discovered that the driver that shipped on the cd with the card (version 97.92) was the only reliable driver that worked corrrectly. Version 100.x was out by then but there were problems. We decided to hold fast with 97.92. It was only this past weekend that I decided to try a more recent driver and download from the nvidia site the 169.21 (built Dec 19, 2007) and it is remarkable how much better it works than 97.92.
What driver are you running on yours? I have an old gunboat 21" crt and there was a little issue with the resolution I was using but after I changed that, the video is beautiful. Aces High looks fantastic. With this new driver, it's almost as if I've upgraded my hardware.
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I'm running 169.44 right now but only have one flight under my belt with it. I'm also pushing a 22" widescreen LG monitor @ 1600x1050 with a 3ms response rate so the card is pushing a lot of pixels but the FR/picture quality is great (I've got anti-aliasing maxed in the NVidea control panel). It hasen't been a problem but I'm not sure I like the top and bottom of the screen cut-off yet to accomodate the widescreen. I think I'm going to try forcing it at 1280x1024 (game centered on screen) tonight and see what that's like.
Condor... you shouldn't have any problems. Just keep the motherboard diagram nearby as it helps in locating all the connectors quicker (otherwise they seem to try and hide from you :) )
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BaldEagl,
I am most interested to hear how your monitor responds to being forced 5:4. I have stayed away from widescreen monitors (still using an old crt actually) for that exact reason. Please give a report on 1280x1024.
thanks
-hb
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I just got offline testing at forced 1280x1024 (turned off scaleing in the NVidea control panel with 1600x1050 resolution and selected 1280x1024 in the game video settings). It works and looks great! I got the full vertical screen back in a size about equal to a 19" LCD/21" CRT. I didn't even notice the black side panels or the few pixels of black at the top and bottom of the screen. The top and bottom show probably less black border than what's around the viewable area on a CRT screen and the picture quality is much better/sharper than either my 19" Viewsonic CRT or my 17" Sony Trinitron CRT.
Homeboy, don't let the game scare you from buying a widescreen. Both inside and outside the game it's a treat.
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I want to tell the longer story but I'll keep this first paragraph short in case you don't care to read the longer one:
After what BaldEagl has said here, I researched what I would want in an LCD. I just bought it and it is truly fantastic! I freely admit that I have been wrong all this time about LCD monitors! Now, what do I do with this 21" boat anchor?
Now the longer story.
From BaldEagl's specs on his monitor and knowing that I would not be happpy with any monitor running less than 1600x1200 nor anything but 5:4 aspect, I decided this one was the one I wanted: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009113
Well, I was in the grocery store last night (ok, not really a grocery store but BJ's -- one of those discount warehouse places where you buy a loaf of bread and an air compressor). I decided to push my shopping chart with the wobbly wheel over to where the computer monitors were just to see what they had. Nothing but a bunch of cheap little 15" jobs and a couple of decent widescreen ones. Then, I spotted an Acer widescreen. I looked closely at the specs and it was IDENTICAL to what I was looking for: 24", 1920x1200, 3000:1 contrast ratio, 2ms response. It even came with a DVI cable. The model was P241W which was different from the one I'd been looking at at Newegg but the specs were all pretty much the same. The price was $350. Not bad. Turns out to be pretty much what you can get online. I had been reluctant to buy online because of all the comments about bad pixels and I had been wanting to buy locally because of that. Well, there it was right before my eyes! The display there in the store looked beautiful and they had two on the shelf. I called my wife on the cell phone and talked with her about it and asked her to look this thing up on google and see what people were saying about it. The reviews she found were good so I just slipped that badboy in my cart along with the tomatoes and off I went to the checkout.
Many thanks to BaldEagl for setting me straight on this.
Oh yea, here's how it looks with Aces High: http://snomhf.exofire.net/
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Glad to hear I didn't steer you wrong Homeboy. I'm sure you'll enjoy it. I'm continually amazed at what the game looks like with my new system on my new monitor.
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I've got a feeling I'll be breaking the other piggy bank soon.