Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: CAP1 on February 16, 2008, 03:19:20 PM
-
ok....i was re-watching a couple films as i was going through my library to delete some......and i watched a couple in which i got the white YOU HAVE COLLIDED WITH XX message, and some wiht the orange XX HAS COLLIDED WITH YOU.
in a couple of them, we BOTH went down missing parts..and when i had asked about this in the forums before, it was stated that he was probably firing.............but guess what? he wasn't.........so what i'm thinking now, is that this model is actually perfect.......in a colision of that type, in reality, both combatents would be going down...and that is how it happened here.....so i would venture that Hitech did it very well....although it still scuks when ya go down for someone elses mistake..as it must be the same for him to go down for mine........anyway, just thought i'd mention this....
:noid :noid
-
Never in this game anyone has taken damage from a collision not happening on his FE. Never.
Oh, many people claimed that for years. But strange enough no one has posted any film yet.
Why not? Because it actually doesn't happen.
-
Originally posted by Lusche
Never in this game anyone has taken damage from a collision not happening on his FE. Never.
Oh, many people claimed that for years. But strange enough no one has posted any film yet.
Why not? Because it actually doesn't happen.
yea....i understand that lusche.......what i'm getting at is that most say lag has something to do with it..and it's true.........if both of our machines saw it, then we both go down....which means both of our machines had to have had about the same connection speed to the servers.....i think........
-
(sigh)
-
Originally posted by CAP1
[Bwhich means both of our machines had to have had about the same connection speed to the servers.....i think........ [/B]
The server has nothing to do with collisions whatsoever. The lag is always your and your enemy's lag combined. The server is just relaying the data between you two.
-
Post the film, i need a good laugh.
-
I don't think the problem is so much that that there are collisions as much as the issue that one plane will often fly away with an oil hit (WTF?) or broken gun while you spiral to the ground with your empanage gone. If both FEs see a collision both pilots should end up in the tower IMHO. If one FE sees the collision and the other doesn't, only the one player goes to the tower. The only exception to this rule should be bombers vs a fighter where the bomber may take damage but the smaller fighter goes to the tower.
-
Originally posted by LilMak
I don't think the problem is so much that that there are collisions as much as the issue that one plane will often fly away with an oil hit (WTF?) or broken gun while you spiral to the ground with your empanage gone. If both FEs see a collision both pilots should end up in the tower IMHO. If one FE sees the collision and the other doesn't, only the one player goes to the tower. The only exception to this rule should be bombers vs a fighter where the bomber may take damage but the smaller fighter goes to the tower.
Not sure how you can say this. In a RL aircraft collision, both airplanes don't always go down. Many times one aircraft has only slight damage while the other's is catastrophic.
-
Originally posted by WMLute
(sigh)
see..i told ya........lute's loading his guns now.......
:noid :noid
-
Originally posted by Lusche
Never in this game anyone has taken damage from a collision not happening on his FE. Never.
Oh, many people claimed that for years. But strange enough no one has posted any film yet.
Why not? Because it actually doesn't happen.
I once collided with a flying saucer, while in my P47 flying in a remote area off the map. I filmed it all, but somehow the .ahf file was corrupted.
-
Originally posted by LilMak
I don't think the problem is so much that that there are collisions as much as the issue that one plane will often fly away with an oil hit (WTF?) or broken gun while you spiral to the ground with your empanage gone. If both FEs see a collision both pilots should end up in the tower IMHO. If one FE sees the collision and the other doesn't, only the one player goes to the tower. The only exception to this rule should be bombers vs a fighter where the bomber may take damage but the smaller fighter goes to the tower.
All ideas are not good ideas.
-
Originally posted by CAP1
ok....i was re-watching a couple films as i was going through my library to delete some......and i watched a couple in which i got the white YOU HAVE COLLIDED WITH XX message, and some wiht the orange XX HAS COLLIDED WITH YOU.
in a couple of them, we BOTH went down missing parts..and when i had asked about this in the forums before, it was stated that he was probably firing.............but guess what? he wasn't.........so what i'm thinking now, is that this model is actually perfect.......in a colision of that type, in reality, both combatents would be going down...and that is how it happened here.....so i would venture that Hitech did it very well....although it still scuks when ya go down for someone elses mistake..as it must be the same for him to go down for mine........anyway, just thought i'd mention this....
:noid :noid
Couple things ...
Collisions that are seen on both FEs dont always result in catastrophic damage to both aircraft. Suppose your prop saws through my wing and both computers see it. I should go down with a lost wing, and you should go on without a prop. Now this is just the first example I could come up with quickly, but I think it illustrates the point.
Consider a second collision where again both computers see the collision where the leading edge of your wing collides with my vertical stabilizer. In this case, both planes would go down. One without a wing and one with a damaged or missing vertical stabilizer.
Further, neither collision was your fault, or mine, it was a product of packet latency (assuming neither of us was conciously trying to collide). Thats where alot of the problem comes from, misunderstanding of what is actually happening. It doesnt suck that I go down from someone else's mistake, because in 99% of the cases, its not their mistake, but a fluke of the internet. Why get mad at someone when it wasnt his fault?
-
Originally posted by Coshy
Why get mad at someone when it wasnt his fault?
i agree
-
I had a collision notice yesterday but when I went back and watched the film we never touched, not even close.
-
Originally posted by Vipper65
I had a collision notice yesterday but when I went back and watched the film we never touched, not even close.
Post it please.
-
Originally posted by bozon
I once collided with a flying saucer, while in my P47 flying in a remote area off the map. I filmed it all, but somehow the .ahf file was corrupted.
:)
rgr it happens all the time for me too - I think its because the flying saucer skin is not included in the hires-pack hence it has to be downloaded from the server. During the download the film-recorder looses some frames and goes bad. :huh
-
I will try to remember to film it next time i bomb but i was bombing the other day (F6 Mode) and got rammed by an nme con, my bomber goes down and he is still there to kill me.
so in this case Whos FE would that have been?
-
Originally posted by kilz
I will try to remember to film it next time i bomb but i was bombing the other day (F6 Mode) and got rammed by an nme con, my bomber goes down and he is still there to kill me.
so in this case Whos FE would that have been?
Read the messages in text buffer
"You have collided" - collision on your FE
"XYZ has collided with you" - collision on your enemies FE
-
Not jumping into the middle of this one way or the other but I do want to ask a question. So many people jump on here and speak authoritatively about collisions, modeling etc... I have rarely ever seen a post from an authority who actually codes this simulator. In fact, I rarely ever see anyone of authority chime in when a collision blood bath thread gets started.
No disrespect to anyone but just because one is great at this game, do not presume you know what Hitech models and how they model. I'm sure there are many factors and lag is probably a big one.
To say that the server has nothing to do with it is pretty ignorant if you truly understand clients/server architecture and TCP/IP. For the server to have nothing to do with it means that there is a peer to peer connection with you and the person who collided with you. I may be wrong but I do not think that kind of overhead is built into this game.
Next time I play, I will run a packet capture and purposely run into a person. To truly see if the server has anything to do with this, I will post the packet capture file on the forum so one may see the communication with the server and what it is sending to my client (what you all call an FE). You will need Ethereal or tcpdump to view it.
HighgTrn
-
The game is played on YOUR front end. The server is nothing but an info transfer point.
Originally posted by hitech
Your understanding is completly incorect.
1. There is no fault in a collision. You detect/see a collision you take damage. I.E. You fly your plane, you occupy the same space and time with your plane as a plane you see on your screen you take damage.
2. The other player has the exact same rules as you. He occupies the same space at the same time with his plane and any other plane he sees on his computer he takes damage.
3. Damage is termermined by which piece of your plane occupied the same space and time with other planes you see.
4. The other persons collision detection has no effect what so ever on your collision detection.
Lag has nothing to do with this detection prosses. All lag does is makes what each person see's (or more precisly the Time varible of (Space and time)) be bigger , hence the bigger the lag the more different each persons world.
This lag is not just one persons lag but wrather the sum of the 2 computers lag. Hence when any 2 people look at eachother. They are both seeing the same amout of lag.
The only lag effect has nothing to do with dection but can effect kills awarded.
This effect is if both people detect a collision at the same moment in real time. This normaly only happens in a head on. Each person then applies there damage to themselevs and notifies the host. If this damage killed the pilot a kill would be awarded. Since this notification takes time to get to the host. The person with the slowest connect would be awarded a kill. Because as far as the host knows, the person with the slowest connection still is flying a perfectly good airplane.
Now if you realy wish to raise your ping times just so you could be awarded a kill in the case where both of you decided not to avoide the collision in a head on. Go right ahead.
HiTech
Good enough?:aok
-
Originally posted by HighGTrn
To say that the server has nothing to do with it is pretty ignorant if you truly understand clients/server architecture and TCP/IP. For the server to have nothing to do with it means that there is a peer to peer connection with you and the person who collided with you. I may be wrong but I do not think that kind of overhead is built into this game.
Collision checks are not made by the server, but only on each players computer. The server doesnt decide wether there was a collsion or anybody was hit by gunfire. He is relaying the data between the clients and takes notes of the results. Updating scores & statistics, changing objects status in arena and a whole lot more.
-
Originally posted by HighGTrn
Next time I play, I will run a packet capture and purposely run into a person. To truly see if the server has anything to do with this, I will post the packet capture file on the forum so one may see the communication with the server and what it is sending to my client (what you all call an FE). You will need Ethereal or tcpdump to view it.
HighgTrn
Ethereal will get you a dump of packets which contain numbers... how will you decide what those numbers mean without the source code?
This game can also be run as a LAN game hence no communication with any HTC servers. Every client has its code to determine local collision - and that is what it does.
-
Originally posted by HighGTrn
Not jumping into the middle of this one way or the other but I do want to ask a question. So many people jump on here and speak authoritatively about collisions, modeling etc... I have rarely ever seen a post from an authority who actually codes this simulator. In fact, I rarely ever see anyone of authority chime in when a collision blood bath thread gets started.
No disrespect to anyone but just because one is great at this game, do not presume you know what Hitech models and how they model. I'm sure there are many factors and lag is probably a big one.
To say that the server has nothing to do with it is pretty ignorant if you truly understand clients/server architecture and TCP/IP. For the server to have nothing to do with it means that there is a peer to peer connection with you and the person who collided with you. I may be wrong but I do not think that kind of overhead is built into this game.
Next time I play, I will run a packet capture and purposely run into a person. To truly see if the server has anything to do with this, I will post the packet capture file on the forum so one may see the communication with the server and what it is sending to my client (what you all call an FE). You will need Ethereal or tcpdump to view it.
HighgTrn
would someone please quote the "podcast" from last years AH con where HT and Pyro went over the collision model. Will hearing it from their months help ya'll understand it better? :D
-
Originally posted by Lusche
Read the messages in text buffer
"You have collided" - collision on your FE
"XYZ has collided with you" - collision on your enemies FE
so as far as FE goes does FE mean where your looking IE looking thru bomb site or is it from the FE of your nose
-
Originally posted by kilz
so as far as FE goes does FE mean where your looking IE looking thru bomb site or is it from the FE of your nose
Front End means just "your computer"
-
well technicaly my whole plane is my computer so your saying some jack *** can come up from under neath me and i can be the one at fault and get the damage
-
Originally posted by kilz
well technicaly my whole plane is my computer so your saying some jack *** can come up from under neath me and i can be the one at fault and get the damage
Yup, you are responsible for maintaining separation.
-
Originally posted by kilz
well technicaly my whole plane is my computer so your saying some jack *** can come up from under neath me and i can be the one at fault and get the damage
In a nutshell.. yes.
Again:
Collision on your computer/screen/FE: "You have collided" - you take damage
Collsision on HIS computer/screen/FE: "XYZ has collided with you" - he takes damage
If you see both messages, a collision happened on both computers/screens/FE'S each, both take damage.
One basic problem is than many people read "You have / XYZ has collided" messages as a kind of blaming -like "Your fault" or "His fault". But the program doesn't judge anything. It just states that (and on whose computer) a collision has happened.
-
Originally posted by kilz:
well technicaly my whole plane is my computer so your saying some jack *** can come up from under neath me and i can be the one at fault and get the damage
Also, keep in mind that on that some jack***'s monitor, he may be seeing you as 400 yards ahead or behind him, while on your FE, he was directly below you.
So, when he pulls up, on his FE he pulled up and passed 400 yards behind you, but on your FE he ended up hitting you.
I think Murdr has got a good in game screenie from 2 FEs depicting this......will try and look up a link.
-
Originally posted by Hazard69
Also, keep in mind that on that some jack***'s monitor, he may be seeing you as 400 yards ahead or behind him, while on your FE, he was directly below you.
So, when he pulls up, on his FE he pulled up and passed 400 yards behind you, but on your FE he ended up hitting you.
I think Murdr has got a good in game screenie from 2 FEs depicting this......will try and look up a link.
but in theory, with what was quoted earlier from HiTech.......the delay is the sum of both computers......shouldn't this then be impossible?
:noid
-
Originally posted by CAP1
but in theory, with what was quoted earlier from HiTech.......the delay is the sum of both computers......shouldn't this then be impossible?
:noid
No.
If there was no delay, both players would see exactly the same. The bigger the delay gets, the more different are the realities on their respective screens.
-
I believe what HTC was trying to say, is that its "no one person's fault". The delay occurs as a sum of lag between both players computers to the server.
For e.g. player A has a fantastic connection, while players B and C have a poor connection. Then the difference in "(virtual) realities" between players A & C or A & B will not be so great as that between players B & C.
At least, thats what I think it says. I dunno, I'm no net techie.....:p :D
EDIT:
Found it at last. It was Bronk's post:
Originally posted by Bronk:
Slappy, it's my personal windmill.
Tangle's external from his front end the moment of impact.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/Tanglesview.jpg)
Same basic angle external, tangle's view from my front end moment of impact.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/myview.jpg)
How would you feel taking damage looking at your film and seeing tangles front end view, hmmmmmm?
I know I'd be pretty POed.
Bronk
Edit: This also works nicely for the "none should take damage" people.
Yea I should be able to put the nose of my ac through another.:furious :furious :furious :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Note the filmviewer ranges. On Tangle's FE he missed Bronk by approx 18yds = 54ft. On Bronks FE, they were 2 yds = 6ft apart.
-
Here is a even more telling example: Both (european) players have stable 150ms pings to the HTC server:
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2236/rammyfeve9.jpg)
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9027/ramotherfeen9.jpg)
Both pictures show the exact moment on impact. First picture is from MY film (Pony), second from my enemy's film (Jug). Pony driver (me) rammed the Jug. Only I took damage, because the collision happened only on MY computer.
-
So last friday my friend and I where diving in on this bandit, then all of a sudden I get T-Boned by this LaLa, bad SA on my part, but he rammed me and I go down.
-
Originally posted by Petee
So last friday my friend and I where diving in on this bandit, then all of a sudden I get T-Boned by this LaLa, bad SA on my part, but he rammed me and I go down.
He "rammed" you on your screen. He probably never touched you on his screen, so the perceived "ram" was more a mishap.
Sucks going down that way, but it happens to all of us from time to time. ;)
-
I don't have any major beef with the collision model as a whole. But some of the damage I get is a bit wacked. For example I collided with a guy the other day, while trying to avoid the collision I went under him and we hit. The funny thing was I recieved damage to my gear and nothing else....LOL...Wierd how I would damage something that was no where near what part of the plane i hit. I should have been decapitated since I hit him with the top of my canopy. Main thing to remember is, this is a game and not everything is going to be perfect, but overall HT does an excellent job.