Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: uberslet on February 17, 2008, 09:55:52 AM
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was thinking, i see MANY pilots HO on first pass in like LA's wen they could easily out manuever my plane (imma a noob in 1-1, so a lot can beat me). and i was thinking, to end this, y not make BOTH pilots have to WORK for a kill, and if they cant, then allow a HO, i know this is a cartoon game, and in real life HO's wer preferred by many; but im not sure in real life a HO was used as much as it is in game. the occasional first pass HO is fine, but as I said earlier, the first pass HO is WAY over used. just and idea.
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Originally posted by uberslet
was thinking, i see MANY pilots HO on first pass in like LA's wen they could easily out manuever my plane (imma a noob in 1-1, so a lot can beat me). and i was thinking, to end this, y not make BOTH pilots have to WORK for a kill, and if they cant, then allow a HO, i know this is a cartoon game, and in real life HO's wer preferred by many; but im not sure in real life a HO was used as much as it is in game. the occasional first pass HO is fine, but as I said earlier, the first pass HO is WAY over used. just and idea.
uberslet I think I understand the gist of what your saying. I think. First off when I fly LA7s I get HO'd all the time by none LA7 airplanes. So much so, and so many times, that when Im in the MA now Im shooting everyone in the face that I can.
In a furball slanting away for separation isnt that easy when you have to worry about the other 14 airplanes all around you. I went a few weeks swearing I wouldnt shoot first and HO but quickly found out that everyone else will shoot you. So now I shoot first If I can. And at this point I dont believe anyone when they say they dont HO.
Ther are a lot of planes more manueverable then the LA. You should wait until you have at least 6 mos in the game before you start blaming LA7s for everything.:D
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i have 1.5 yrs in the game. i try to avoid the HO's, but do HO sometimes. and i shouldnt really blame EVERYTHING on the la7's, cuz most all planes HO. but as I sed, it seems over used vs other ACM's
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Is this thread my fault?
:lol
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Originally posted by Stang
Is this thread my fault?
:lol
Yes.
:D
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Capital letters at the start of sentences Uberslet..
I don't think artificial HO cones like AW (?) had are interesting, even temporary (first pass; good luck coding that).
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If you want to HO on the first I say go for it. If you don't then just don't. If you choose to not HO and the other guy does and kills you then you have just failed at avoiding a HO. That's just my way of looking at it.
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Latrobe I generally agree with you, however there are some aircraft (*cough* Hurri2C *cough*) that have the unfortunate capability of reversing into a HO at INSANELY short distances (had a 2C on MORE than one occasion swing around from almost DEAD SIX on his tail to a full HO in under 200yds closure at high speed).
That said, there's a couple of more-often-than-not successful methods of cheating the guy intent on HOing:
Pull into a hard zoom above him before he can fire -- If executed with proper timing, the rate of closure will be too great for him to get his nose up enough for more than a split-second snapshot at an awful deflection angle. I have more success with this than any other method, because once I'm above him, it's just a matter of kicking hard inside rudder and rolling over on top of him. If he commits to the HO, he's effectively throwing all his other options out the window.
Nose down to duck under him -- Generally riskier, as you're giving him a shot at your cockpit. Also, there's suspicion that the game under-models the effects of negative Gs on the pilot so it's a lot easier for a persistent opponent to depress his nose enough than it may supposed to be. Either way, as above the closure rate should give him a poor snapshot at a bad angle, at best.
Snaproll -- Never underestimate the effectiveness of a well-timed and executed snap-roll. The tight corkscrew pattern can make lining up for the shot against you problematic, and it also very rapidly alters your E-state. The combination of these two factors will frequently be enough to throw off your opponent's aim. The downside is that the recovery time and loss of E limits your options to respond once you've cleared the merge.
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Don't confuse what a HO actually is.
The HO that many disdain is the HO on a first merge (primarily one on one), thus the cold guns merge rule in the DA. Most would agree that once past the opening merge anything goes. In a furball or an outnumbered situation all "honor" goes out the window and anything goes at any time.
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So if you're in an engagement that boils down entirely to a series of direct nose-on passes, lather, rinse repeat, one after another, the only one that's ACTUALLY a HO is the first one?
Couldn't DISagree more with that assessment.
Whether it's the initial merge in a fight, or the second, third, fourth, or you're working the guy for angles and all the sudden he decides to say "Screw it" and turns into you for a direct nose-on shot as far as I'm concerned is a HO.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Snaproll -- Never underestimate the effectiveness of a well-timed and executed snap-roll. The tight corkscrew pattern can make lining up for the shot against you problematic, and it also very rapidly alters your E-state. The combination of these two factors will frequently be enough to throw off your opponent's aim. The downside is that the recovery time and loss of E limits your options to respond once you've cleared the merge.
This is the one move that I use all the time against a HO, and it works 99% of the time.
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Originally posted by Saxman
So if you're in an engagement that boils down entirely to a series of direct nose-on passes, lather, rinse repeat, one after another, the only one that's ACTUALLY a HO is the first one?
Couldn't DISagree more with that assessment.
Whether it's the initial merge in a fight, or the second, third, fourth, or you're working the guy for angles and all the sudden he decides to say "Screw it" and turns into you for a direct nose-on shot as far as I'm concerned is a HO.
Gotta go with Sax on this one.
I hate it when I try to work angles to get on someone's six when all they do is keep turning to put their nose on me for the HO. I'm not going to play back and push aggressively for that front quarter shot if I know that they are trying their hardest to just turn it into a HO with no thought of taking damage or getting shot down, as long as they "get me." I just can't put myself into a situation that gives me 50% odds of living, and worse odds of coming out of it untouched. I need everything on my 38, despite the fact of having double.:D And I'm usually so deep in a knife fight that I don't always have the E to evade properly once I see them pushing for that HO, and so I try to avoid (because of the stated reasons above), and usually take some type of damage. But hey I guess that's my fault...
donkey
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I only ho certain planes and certain situation here it is:
1. 262 mainly cuz im never gonna get it to turn and i cant outrun it unless im in 1
2. Tempest cuz its always higher than me and i will prolly let a pilot get away if he tries to turn with me.
3 Any plane that tries to cherry pick me, my only affective defense that will kill it.
These should be really the only circumstances for a ho
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Originally posted by Saxman
So if you're in an engagement that boils down entirely to a series of direct nose-on passes, lather, rinse repeat, one after another, the only one that's ACTUALLY a HO is the first one?
Couldn't DISagree more with that assessment.
Whether it's the initial merge in a fight, or the second, third, fourth, or you're working the guy for angles and all the sudden he decides to say "Screw it" and turns into you for a direct nose-on shot as far as I'm concerned is a HO.
That may be your viewpoint but I've fought a lot of very good, highly respected sticks over the years and they have all taken that shot if it was given after the opening merge. I'm still a little surprised at it from some guys (many who preach no HO).
I agree it's still a HO but at that point it seems to be both expected and accepted from every engagement I've been in over almost 12 years.
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Learn to shoot accurately, or learn to avoid. It's really that simple.
This is one particular "tactic" that is not liable to change soon. We've got more noobs than ever, and they really couldn't care less what you guys consider a sporting kill. Most of them can't read anyway, so even if they see all these HO threads from over the years, it still won't matter.
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I say HO away!!! Just the other night I HO"d the crap out of some fool who thought he would HO my YAK-9T in his F4U-C :D Bad choice on his part.....
After trying to avoid Ho's for several years I found it's better ust to work on your aim and shoot the HO dweebs in the face.
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I fly an La a lot and i find probably 50% of the people that come at me try to set up a HO shot on the merge.
I usually initiate a level break turn like I'm setting up a bracket attack and do something akin to a high yo-yo to try to make them overshoot and pass low allowing me to roll over at the top and come down around about on their 6. This Immediately puts them on the defensive. (This manoeuvre was inspired by recounts of Robert Olds' encounters flying the P38)
Since I've started using this tactic I've rarely fallen victim to a HO attack.
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Originally posted by DoNKeY
I hate it when I try to work angles to get on someone's six when all they do is keep turning to put their nose on me for the HO.
That's the same as whining that folks won't fly straight for you to shoot them down.
If you're working for a 6 oclock angle and they keep getting their nose on you, you're seriously doing something wrong.
There is nothing "noble" about a rear 6 oclock shot, nor is that any comment about your skills if you get one.
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I agree that the HO on the initial merge is bad form, but after that all's fair. Otherwise you have a 'safe zone' in all FQ passes, and who decides what is HO vs. 'high deflection'?? 25 degrees angle off? 15 degrees? too arbitrary.
Best advice is don't put your plane where my bullets can get to it...no matter what the aspect is.
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One of the few times I got into it with someone who didn't HO me on the first pass was a guy in a 190 I ran into low level while I was heading back for gas in my dweebmobile. We went the first 3 passes without anyone making a mistake and passed at front angles. On the 4'th pass we HO'd each other as if one guy was flying both planes. Somehow I won the fight but it was the 1 out of 3 times my enemy did not HO me on the first pass. The way I feel it Ive become an HO'er even tho I never wanted to be one.
Now about the only time I wouldnt consider an HO is a 1 on 1 with nobody around. Those fights are extremely rare in the MA and Ive been considering going into the DA more.
"MOst" of the HO's Ive ran into are awfully good shots for being noobs.:lol Course we probably all know most who do it aint noobs at all. But I guess having dweeb/noobs in L-ghays is useful when you need to pin the worlds problems on someone.
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Originally posted by Stang
Is this thread my fault?
:lol
u one of the lgay dweebs i respect stang, so no, its not cuz of u :D
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Ho'in in DA is bad form but in a furball all is fair. In MA, remember, this is a WAR game and the object of the War is??? Anyone? To win.
I tend to HO when the approaching enemy shoots first but flying skills can over come that. As "he" is trying to line up and shoot, defensive moves come to order.
So, no I do not agree about trying to be Noble or honorable in a War game. I do agree in DA as pilots to develop skills we should give each other that courtesy. If you attack in a furball, throw all that out the window. To me, it is almost the same as a running bird who is RTB but someone attacks him.
In AW WW1 Arena we always gave each other the honor of a clean pass. In WW2 arena, forget it.
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Well ya cant fix DWEEBZ :lol
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I had a situation a month ago or so, where on my first flight, and my first enemy encounter, the guy zooms in from 5k away and HO'd me. In my frustration I got on 200 and complained about the HO.
All the replys were the same "they did it in real life" or my interpretation of replys.."Ho's are not only acceptable, but encouraged", so now I really try to size my opponent up as we merge, if he counters all my moves to stay head-on, I HO'em, if he looks like he's gonna manuever to the side, I do the same. This game is so much more fun when we can fight instead of being sucker punched, my ACM is already poor, but I have bail out and take-offs mastered!
Also, the LA7 is not the only HO fighter, they all can do it. I have a bigger problem with N1K's and Typhoons HO'ing, I watch these guys much closer on merge.