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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: crockett on February 17, 2008, 02:08:16 PM

Title: This is must see...
Post by: crockett on February 17, 2008, 02:08:16 PM
I've never seen this footage posted anywhere but damn it's some of the best I've seen from ww2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuZkG9t2OSA

Digitally Remastered!
1941: Air duel over the Cliffs of Dover between German BF 109 and British Spitfires. Original captured soundtrack of the battle and of radio communications between German fighters' airmen.
Title: Re: This is must see...
Post by: Fulmar on February 17, 2008, 02:20:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
I've never seen this footage posted anywhere but damn it's some of the best I've seen from ww2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuZkG9t2OSA

Digitally Remastered!
1941: Air duel over the Cliffs of Dover between German BF 109 and British Spitfires. Original captured soundtrack of the battle and of radio communications between German fighters' airmen.


Saw it a while back.  Good nonetheless.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: UNIstrut on February 17, 2008, 02:22:05 PM
Wow, what a video, the way that Spitfire comes swinging in is incredible!!!

Thanks for posting!

Uni.
Title: Re: This is must see...
Post by: Lusche on February 17, 2008, 02:28:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
Original captured soundtrack of the battle and of radio communications between German fighters' airmen.


No original capture. Radio chatter is fake.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Karnak on February 17, 2008, 02:38:26 PM
Fake.  Was for a BBC production if I recall.

There are quite a number of things that stand out, such as the radio chatter and the Spitfire's radiators as being wrong for the claimed time and place.
Title: Re: Re: This is must see...
Post by: Fulmar on February 17, 2008, 02:40:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
No original capture. Radio chatter is fake.


Yeah I hope he didn't think it was real.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Donzo on February 17, 2008, 02:40:36 PM
Fake.  CGI.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: stickpig on February 17, 2008, 03:01:16 PM
Looked like the BOB episode from "dogfights' on the Discovery/history channel
Title: This is must see...
Post by: crockett on February 17, 2008, 03:36:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by stickpig
Looked like the BOB episode from "dogfights' on the Discovery/history channel


History channel CGI does not look like that.. nor does any other I've ever seen and I used to do 3D work. I call BS on this being CGI.. Also History channel shows various views of their reproductions not gun cam only footage.

If that is CGI then it made some news somewhere so if you guys call CGI.. well prove it. That quality of CGI environment would have made some news somewhere.

It says digitally remastered to color. Not CGI. As to the radio I have no clue on that part could very well be fake and added to the video as well as the sound.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Xjazz on February 17, 2008, 03:52:57 PM
(silently setup a seat and cold box full of beer)
Title: This is must see...
Post by: KG45 on February 17, 2008, 03:56:18 PM
looks like 'Battle of Britain' out takes.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Jag34 on February 17, 2008, 04:01:38 PM
Almost looks like a scene from the movie "Battle of Britain"
Title: This is must see...
Post by: crockett on February 17, 2008, 04:15:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jag34
Almost looks like a scene from the movie "Battle of Britain"


lol I'd disagree with that.. This is a battle scene from the movie BoB. Not quite the same quality. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVBO61qg-kc#
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Tarmac on February 17, 2008, 04:45:41 PM
What Karnak said.  2x radiators on the spit means that video was not shot in 1941.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: sunfan1121 on February 17, 2008, 05:05:52 PM
I dont buy it
Title: This is must see...
Post by: crockett on February 17, 2008, 05:23:33 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Tarmac
What Karnak said.  2x radiators on the spit means that video was not shot in 1941.


Possible.. it could be a reproduction.. I'm going by what the site said. The video is from a site that deals in ww2 films, so I'll take their word on it.. untill someone can "prove" otherwise. Just because it says 41 doesn't mean it happened in 41 could have happened at a later date.

I just don't buy that it's CGI.. I used to be pretty big in CGI and no way would that kind of quality be done and no one hear about it.

The only way I could even possibly buy that it's CGI is if they used film from a real aircraft (the one acting as the chase plane) then added in the other aircraft he was following.

Otherwise the background terrain is just too good to be faked. The other issie is the smoke is just far too realistic compaired to any CGI smoke I've seen.

speaking of CGI.. check out this 262 I found on blender's forums..

http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=110320
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Donzo on February 17, 2008, 05:25:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
History channel CGI does not look like that.. nor does any other I've ever seen and I used to do 3D work. I call BS on this being CGI.. Also History channel shows various views of their reproductions not gun cam only footage.

If that is CGI then it made some news somewhere so if you guys call CGI.. well prove it. That quality of CGI environment would have made some news somewhere.

It says digitally remastered to color. Not CGI. As to the radio I have no clue on that part could very well be fake and added to the video as well as the sound.


So who was doing the filming?  Just another 109 with no guns and just a camera along for the ride?
Title: This is must see...
Post by: crockett on February 17, 2008, 05:28:44 PM
something else I notice after watching it again.. at the start 2 spits split the 109's one goes to the right one to the left. I knew the 2nd spit came in at the end but I never noticed it flew past them to the right side at the start. I was thinking he came in from above or afterwards. Never realized it was there from the start.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Yknurd on February 17, 2008, 05:36:03 PM
Photoshop.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Yknurd on February 17, 2008, 05:45:05 PM
Although this is pretty damn cool.

(http://images32.fotosik.pl/143/6fe1ad3a725c15d6.jpg)
Title: This is must see...
Post by: crockett on February 17, 2008, 05:54:17 PM
well the only other "film" I could find as someone mention it maybe from a program from BBC..

Well this clip is from the TV series "A Piece of Cake" which is still not the same kind of footage.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vT1L3l5dvhA

So if it's not real footage than someone can show me where it came from, because it don't match anything I can find of known shows or movies.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: crockett on February 17, 2008, 06:00:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Yknurd
Photoshop.


You even know what photoshop is?
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Larry on February 17, 2008, 06:01:34 PM
Looks like CGI. Who is the guy that made alot of battle scenes in CGI. I think hes japanese. Kinda looks like his work.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Gianlupo on February 17, 2008, 06:16:29 PM
You mean Tochy, TK? I don't think it's something he did, he usually put them in his site and there's nothing like that (site's at http://www.k4.dion.ne.jp/~suppon/)

And, Crockett, it's clearly a fake. Do you really think a Spit pilot would drop in the middle of 2 109, giving a perfect target to the wingman? And, if the second spit was there from the beginning, why didn't he helped his friend? I can't believe there were so clueless pilots in the war....
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Donzo on February 17, 2008, 06:24:14 PM
I think it is actual footage of some planes out of the Imperial War Museum Duxford.

The footage was shot for use in a motion simulator.

Quote

Visitors to Duxford's Imperial War Museum will get a taste of what it was like to take part in a dogfight over the skies of 1940's England this Easter. Filmed in real time by Duxford-based Spitfires and a Messerschmitt Bf109, the motion simulator moves from the perspective of the Bf109 as it makes a lightning raid on our shores during the Battle of Britain.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Larry on February 17, 2008, 06:50:39 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gianlupo
You mean Tochy, TK? I don't think it's something he did, he usually put them in his site and there's nothing like that (site's at http://www.k4.dion.ne.jp/~suppon/)
 




Yea thats him. Those are some great movies.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: moot on February 17, 2008, 07:06:00 PM
Too fluid for a WWII guncam.  Did they even have aperture systems of that quality back then?  All airborne footage I've seen from WWII was fixed exposure.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Donzo on February 17, 2008, 07:17:03 PM
Check out the "Dogfight" film from this company:

http://helifilms.homestead.com/ridefilms.html


You can't view the film on the site but I bet that's the video we are looking at.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Karnak on February 17, 2008, 07:19:48 PM
The Spitfires had two radiatiors (means two stage Merlin or Griffon engine, Mk IX or later) and no cannons (means unarmed PR aircraft or CGI with a madeup Spitfire version having two radiators and eight .303s).
Title: This is must see...
Post by: jarbo on February 17, 2008, 09:25:21 PM
well i check a few of the other links out and enjoyed this one:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR_9s-aFnIs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR_9s-aFnIs)
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Rino on February 17, 2008, 09:34:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
History channel CGI does not look like that.. nor does any other I've ever seen and I used to do 3D work. I call BS on this being CGI.. Also History channel shows various views of their reproductions not gun cam only footage.

If that is CGI then it made some news somewhere so if you guys call CGI.. well prove it. That quality of CGI environment would have made some news somewhere.

It says digitally remastered to color. Not CGI. As to the radio I have no clue on that part could very well be fake and added to the video as well as the sound.


     It is CGI, although it's blurred in that footage.  I saw it first about a year ago
and IIRC it was done for a museum simulation in England.

Here is a link with the original soundtrack:

Spitfire CGI (http://media.putfile.com/spitfire-vs-Me-109-dogfight)
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Yknurd on February 17, 2008, 09:52:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
You even know what photoshop is?


You even know what guncam footage is?
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Donzo on February 17, 2008, 10:18:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Rino
It is CGI, although it's blurred in that footage.  I saw it first about a year ago
and IIRC it was done for a museum simulation in England.

Here is a link with the original soundtrack:

Spitfire CGI (http://media.putfile.com/spitfire-vs-Me-109-dogfight)



It's not CGI (I thought it was at first, too).  It's actual footage shot from a chase helicopter.  It was made for a simulation ride.


Check this link under the "DogFight" section.  
http://helifilms.homestead.com/ridefilms.html

That film was originated on "Showscan"...the same "property of" watermarked on the video.



Here's a link to ShowScan's website where you can download the video.
http://www.showscan.com/dnn/Films/RideFilms/tabid/91/Default.aspx
Title: Re: This is must see...
Post by: CAP1 on February 17, 2008, 10:32:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
I've never seen this footage posted anywhere but damn it's some of the best I've seen from ww2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuZkG9t2OSA

Digitally Remastered!
1941: Air duel over the Cliffs of Dover between German BF 109 and British Spitfires. Original captured soundtrack of the battle and of radio communications between German fighters' airmen.


no one noticed the two 109's ganging the spit in the beginning?

:noid
Title: This is must see...
Post by: BaldEagl on February 17, 2008, 10:36:41 PM
Real or not it was fun to watch.

I think I actually saw that exact same fight (on youtube?) but from one of the Spitfires perspectives (without radio chatter).  In the end of that film, the remaining 109 bugs out on the deck.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Vulcan on February 17, 2008, 10:59:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
History channel CGI does not look like that.. nor does any other I've ever seen and I used to do 3D work. I call BS on this being CGI..  


Well now we know why you *used* to do CGI work :)

It's CGI, not hard to spot at all, there are quite a obvious few clues - here's a freebie to start with - control surfaces.

Looks like a helicopter ran a flight path then CGI is laid over it.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: straffo on February 18, 2008, 12:07:39 AM
CGI from Battle of britain  2000 anniversary
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Guppy35 on February 18, 2008, 12:20:58 AM
Boy am I disappointed in the LW 109 guys around here.  At roughly 8 seconds in to the film, if you Look close, you can see it's a Spanish built "109", a Merlin engined HA 1112 Buchon.  The exhaust stacks are up high, not the inverted DB of a wartime 109.

For shame ya bastages! :)

And if you look close at the Spits you can see they're in the wrong camo for a Merlin 61 Spit, and you can also see the walkways on both sides of the fuselage that are common to restored Spits.

Probably these two birds of the Old Flying Machine Company painted up for the occasion.  They did a lot of film work.  Mark Hanna was killed in an accident in the Buchon.  MH434 is the Spit, and the defaul skin in AH is from that bird.
(http://www.realaero.com/show/duo_ian.jpg)
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Old Sport on February 18, 2008, 12:33:21 AM
Not to mention that at the very end, the Spitfire flies DIRECTLY in front of the trailing 109 for several seconds and he didn't shoot. Visually the video is pretty well done, the story seems a little lame though...
Title: This is must see...
Post by: stickpig on February 18, 2008, 01:10:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by crockett
History channel CGI does not look like that.. nor does any other I've ever seen and I used to do 3D work. I call BS on this being CGI.. Also History channel shows various views of their reproductions not gun cam only footage.

If that is CGI then it made some news somewhere so if you guys call CGI.. well prove it. That quality of CGI environment would have made some news somewhere.

It says digitally remastered to color. Not CGI. As to the radio I have no clue on that part could very well be fake and added to the video as well as the sound.


And you really think this is real footage?:lol
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Donzo on February 18, 2008, 05:56:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
Well now we know why you *used* to do CGI work :)

It's CGI, not hard to spot at all, there are quite a obvious few clues - here's a freebie to start with - control surfaces.

Looks like a helicopter ran a flight path then CGI is laid over it.



If you look at the Showscan website that I posted a link for you will see this video along with others from the company.  This one is listed as "Live action" while others are listed as "CGI" or "CGI/Live action".  It's real footage, just not 1940's "real".
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Yknurd on February 18, 2008, 07:07:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Donzo
It's real footage, just not 1940's "real".

Either way, it's still not guncam footage.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Hazzer on February 18, 2008, 07:18:45 AM
This is cgi. guncam footage was exposed at 16 fps,hence the usual poor quality.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: SkyRock on February 18, 2008, 07:24:27 AM
Fake, easily noticed.  Not to mention the german is talking in english, "Gunther, my engine is out!"  LMAO!
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Bronk on February 18, 2008, 07:26:49 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Guppy35
Boy am I disappointed in the LW 109 guys around here.  At roughly 8 seconds in to the film, if you Look close, you can see it's a Spanish built "109", a Merlin engined HA 1112 Buchon.  The exhaust stacks are up high, not the inverted DB of a wartime 109.

For shame ya bastages! :)

And if you look close at the Spits you can see they're in the wrong camo for a Merlin 61 Spit, and you can also see the walkways on both sides of the fuselage that are common to restored Spits.

Probably these two birds of the Old Flying Machine Company painted up for the occasion.  They did a lot of film work.  Mark Hanna was killed in an accident in the Buchon.  MH434 is the Spit, and the defaul skin in AH is from that bird.
(http://www.realaero.com/show/duo_ian.jpg)

^^^^^^
Spit/109 dweeb. :p
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Donzo on February 18, 2008, 08:04:59 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Hazzer
This is cgi. guncam footage was exposed at 16 fps,hence the usual poor quality.


It was shot on 70mm film from a chase helicopter at 60 fps.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: WWhiskey on February 18, 2008, 08:47:10 AM
If it was real, why would they not shoot down the camera plane first!:aok
Title: This is must see...
Post by: crockett on February 18, 2008, 09:10:56 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Donzo
It's not CGI (I thought it was at first, too).  It's actual footage shot from a chase helicopter.  It was made for a simulation ride.


Check this link under the "DogFight" section.  
http://helifilms.homestead.com/ridefilms.html

That film was originated on "Showscan"...the same "property of" watermarked on the video.



Here's a link to ShowScan's website where you can download the video.
http://www.showscan.com/dnn/Films/RideFilms/tabid/91/Default.aspx


Yea I knew that terrain was not CGI.. that's was the basis for my argument against it being CGI. It's why I said the only way it could possible be CGI is if they used a real plane to film the footage then added in the other planes. Even then the smoke is way to good for any CGI smoke I've ever seen.

So are you saying they used real planes with a chase helicopter?
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Donzo on February 18, 2008, 09:11:48 AM
Quote
Originally posted by crockett


So are you saying they used real planes with a chase helicopter?


Yes.
Title: This is must see...
Post by: crockett on February 18, 2008, 09:14:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Donzo
Yes.


cool then that's believable.. I just knew it wasn't CGI..
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Hazzer on February 18, 2008, 01:18:50 PM
Granted it isn't cgi,and the 109 is a Buchon,my point was it's not wwII footage.Apologies.:)
Title: This is must see...
Post by: morfiend on February 18, 2008, 03:44:16 PM
It was part of a BBC show comparing the developement of British and german war equipment. I saw in on discovery,they compared the effectiveness of the spits 8 303' to the BF's 7.7 and 20 mm. They stated that the fight would have been a draw as both sides lost an A/C and that do to low fuel the last 109 had to RTB.

 They also did a comparison between german and british arty as well as SE5 and fokker triplane,some interesting conclusions were made!!!
Title: This is must see...
Post by: Charge on February 18, 2008, 03:51:35 PM
"Boy am I disappointed in the LW 109 guys around here. At roughly 8 seconds in to the film, if you Look close, you can see it's a Spanish built "109", a Merlin engined HA 1112 Buchon. The exhaust stacks are up high, not the inverted DB of a wartime 109."

T'was the first thing I noticed when I first saw this quite some time ago. I hope you are happy now Gup. :D

-C+
Title: This is must see...
Post by: MotorOil1 on February 18, 2008, 03:57:55 PM
Did anyone see tracer fire?  Even if the planes didn't have traces you would still see a load coming from the spit near the end with 8 303s.  

Not to mention, do you think if you had two 109s on your six you'd be sitting there calmly swinging with your wingman......  I'd be pretty hard on the stick.

I guess the spit engine in the 109 was a bit of a tip off.