Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Arlo on February 17, 2008, 07:35:17 PM
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The Dumbing Of America
Call Me a Snob, but Really, We're a Nation of Dunces
By Susan Jacoby
Sunday, February 17, 2008
"The mind of this country, taught to aim at low objects, eats upon itself." Ralph Waldo Emerson offered that observation in 1837, but his words echo with painful prescience in today's very different United States. Americans are in serious intellectual trouble -- in danger of losing our hard-won cultural capital to a virulent mixture of anti-intellectualism, anti-rationalism and low expectations.
This is the last subject that any candidate would dare raise on the long and winding road to the White House. It is almost impossible to talk about the manner in which public ignorance contributes to grave national problems without being labeled an "elitist," one of the most powerful pejoratives that can be applied to anyone aspiring to high office. Instead, our politicians repeatedly assure Americans that they are just "folks," a patronizing term that you will search for in vain in important presidential speeches before 1980. (Just imagine: "We here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain . . . and that government of the folks, by the folks, for the folks, shall not perish from the earth.") Such exaltations of ordinariness are among the distinguishing traits of anti-intellectualism in any era.
The classic work on this subject by Columbia University historian Richard Hofstadter, "Anti-Intellectualism in American Life," was published in early 1963, between the anti-communist crusades of the McCarthy era and the social convulsions of the late 1960s. Hofstadter saw American anti-intellectualism as a basically cyclical phenomenon that often manifested itself as the dark side of the country's democratic impulses in religion and education. But today's brand of anti-intellectualism is less a cycle than a flood. If Hofstadter (who died of leukemia in 1970 at age 54) had lived long enough to write a modern-day sequel, he would have found that our era of 24/7 infotainment has outstripped his most apocalyptic predictions about the future of American culture.
Dumbness, to paraphrase the late senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, has been steadily defined downward for several decades, by a combination of heretofore irresistible forces. These include the triumph of video culture over print culture (and by video, I mean every form of digital media, as well as older electronic ones); a disjunction between Americans' rising level of formal education and their shaky grasp of basic geography, science and history; and the fusion of anti-rationalism with anti-intellectualism.
First and foremost among the vectors of the new anti-intellectualism is video. The decline of book, newspaper and magazine reading is by now an old story. The drop-off is most pronounced among the young, but it continues to accelerate and afflict Americans of all ages and education levels.
Reading has declined not only among the poorly educated, according to a report last year by the National Endowment for the Arts. In 1982, 82 percent of college graduates read novels or poems for pleasure; two decades later, only 67 percent did. And more than 40 percent of Americans under 44 did not read a single book -- fiction or nonfiction -- over the course of a year. The proportion of 17-year-olds who read nothing (unless required to do so for school) more than doubled between 1984 and 2004. This time period, of course, encompasses the rise of personal computers, Web surfing and video games.
Does all this matter? Technophiles pooh-pooh jeremiads about the end of print culture as the navel-gazing of (what else?) elitists. In his book "Everything Bad Is Good for You: How Today's Popular Culture Is Actually Making Us Smarter," the science writer Steven Johnson assures us that we have nothing to worry about. Sure, parents may see their "vibrant and active children gazing silently, mouths agape, at the screen." But these zombie-like characteristics "are not signs of mental atrophy. They're signs of focus." Balderdash. The real question is what toddlers are screening out, not what they are focusing on, while they sit mesmerized by videos they have seen dozens of times.
Despite an aggressive marketing campaign aimed at encouraging babies as young as 6 months to watch videos, there is no evidence that focusing on a screen is anything but bad for infants and toddlers. In a study released last August, University of Washington researchers found that babies between 8 and 16 months recognized an average of six to eight fewer words for every hour spent watching videos.
I cannot prove that reading for hours in a treehouse (which is what I was doing when I was 13) creates more informed citizens than hammering away at a Microsoft Xbox or obsessing about Facebook profiles. But the inability to concentrate for long periods of time -- as distinct from brief reading hits for information on the Web -- seems to me intimately related to the inability of the public to remember even recent news events. It is not surprising, for example, that less has been heard from the presidential candidates about the Iraq war in the later stages of the primary campaign than in the earlier ones, simply because there have been fewer video reports of violence in Iraq. Candidates, like voters, emphasize the latest news, not necessarily the most important news.
No wonder negative political ads work. "With text, it is even easy to keep track of differing levels of authority behind different pieces of information," the cultural critic Caleb Crain noted recently in the New Yorker. "A comparison of two video reports, on the other hand, is cumbersome. Forced to choose between conflicting stories on television, the viewer falls back on hunches, or on what he believed before he started watching."
As video consumers become progressively more impatient with the process of acquiring information through written language, all politicians find themselves under great pressure to deliver their messages as quickly as possible -- and quickness today is much quicker than it used to be. Harvard University's Kiku Adatto found that between 1968 and 1988, the average sound bite on the news for a presidential candidate -- featuring the candidate's own voice -- dropped from 42.3 seconds to 9.8 seconds. By 2000, according to another Harvard study, the daily candidate bite was down to just 7.8 seconds.
The shrinking public attention span fostered by video is closely tied to the second important anti-intellectual force in American culture: the erosion of general knowledge.
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(cont.)
People accustomed to hearing their president explain complicated policy choices by snapping "I'm the decider" may find it almost impossible to imagine the pains that Franklin D. Roosevelt took, in the grim months after Pearl Harbor, to explain why U.S. armed forces were suffering one defeat after another in the Pacific. In February 1942, Roosevelt urged Americans to spread out a map during his radio "fireside chat" so that they might better understand the geography of battle. In stores throughout the country, maps sold out; about 80 percent of American adults tuned in to hear the president. FDR had told his speechwriters that he was certain that if Americans understood the immensity of the distances over which supplies had to travel to the armed forces, "they can take any kind of bad news right on the chin."
This is a portrait not only of a different presidency and president but also of a different country and citizenry, one that lacked access to satellite-enhanced Google maps but was far more receptive to learning and complexity than today's public. According to a 2006 survey by National Geographic-Roper, nearly half of Americans between ages 18 and 24 do not think it necessary to know the location of other countries in which important news is being made. More than a third consider it "not at all important" to know a foreign language, and only 14 percent consider it "very important."
That leads us to the third and final factor behind the new American dumbness: not lack of knowledge per se but arrogance about that lack of knowledge. The problem is not just the things we do not know (consider the one in five American adults who, according to the National Science Foundation, thinks the sun revolves around the Earth); it's the alarming number of Americans who have smugly concluded that they do not need to know such things in the first place. Call this anti-rationalism -- a syndrome that is particularly dangerous to our public institutions and discourse. Not knowing a foreign language or the location of an important country is a manifestation of ignorance; denying that such knowledge matters is pure anti-rationalism. The toxic brew of anti-rationalism and ignorance hurts discussions of U.S. public policy on topics from health care to taxation.
There is no quick cure for this epidemic of arrogant anti-rationalism and anti-intellectualism; rote efforts to raise standardized test scores by stuffing students with specific answers to specific questions on specific tests will not do the job. Moreover, the people who exemplify the problem are usually oblivious to it. ("Hardly anyone believes himself to be against thought and culture," Hofstadter noted.) It is past time for a serious national discussion about whether, as a nation, we truly value intellect and rationality. If this indeed turns out to be a "change election," the low level of discourse in a country with a mind taught to aim at low objects ought to be the first item on the change agenda.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/15/AR2008021502901_2.html?referrer=emailarticle
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So do you have an opinion to offer on this piece you just posted?
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Make introductory logic, philosophy and math a requirement in schools and the kids will take care of themselves. And the earlier in the curiculum, the better.
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Originally posted by Toad
So do you have an opinion to offer on this piece you just posted.
Do you? :D
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Originally posted by moot
Make introductory logic, philosophy and math a requirement in schools and the kids will take care of themselves. And the earlier in the curiculum, the better.
Math's already a requirement .... but liberal arts? We don't need no steenkin' socialist conditioning of our kids! Make prayer mandatory! ;)
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commie's hate us too...
:D
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Too? Anyone that hates us is a commie ... especially those of us that hate ourselves! :D
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Arlo the math I took in HS back then was too light. It came off to most kids as obscure and useless. The basics of math would be a lot more pertinent to their minds (and this'd allow a more straight to the point course rather than a dumbed down form) if it was preceded by the basics of logic.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Math's already a requirement .... but liberal arts? We don't need no steenkin' socialist conditioning of our kids! Make prayer mandatory! ;)
Why do you people always do this? We should ignore the nutjobs on the left but the nutjobs on the right are the standard for all Conservatives? The only thing that rational people ask is that you people stop teaching theories as fact and understand that individual choice is the Crux of freedom.
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Originally posted by moot
Arlo the math I took in HS back then was too light. It came off to most kids as obscure and useless. The basics of math would be a lot more pertinent to their minds (and this'd allow a more straight to the point course rather than a dumbed down form) if it was preceded by the basics of logic.
The math I took in HS was more than adequate for the blue collar work enviroment. But let's go back to critical thought. That and a genuine desire to learn facts before forming conclusions. Can that be made mandatory? Especially in an enviroment where more and more in power managed to get there without it? Or is this something that requires nurturing, inspiration and example?
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Originally posted by sluggish
Why do you people always do this? We should ignore the nutjobs on the left but the nutjobs on the right are the standard for all "Conservatives?" The only thing that "rational" people ask is that you people stop teaching theories as fact and understand that individual choice is the Crux of freedom.
Ah ... and the inevitable example of subject rushes into the thread and proclaims itself. Guess that's something .... you people seemed to have managed to avoid learning how to avoid. :D
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University-paid intellectuals bemoaning the fact that regular, unwashed folks aren't interested in their lofty thoughts:eek:
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Originally posted by Arlo
Ah ... and the inevitable example of subject rushes into the thread and proclaims itself. Guess that's something .... you people "seemed" to have managed to avoid learning how to avoid. :D
Huh? You see, I too can put quotations around parts of a post for emphasis.
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Originally posted by bj229r
University-paid intellectuals bemoaning the fact that regular, unwashed folks aren't interested in their lofty thoughts:eek:
(Tag #2)
Relax ... only for tracking purposes. :)
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This forum makes me dumber.
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I believe all should be required to study James Burke's 'The Day the Universe Changed'
Best stuff that i've seen as to western civilization's approach to knowledge and understanding..
I can't find the video anywhere though.. Guess i might have to read the book.. :rofl
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Originally posted by sluggish
Huh? You see, I too can put quotations around parts of a post for emphasis.
You mean you can actually learn from my example? I consider that potential. :)
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The whole idea of American public education is set up to fail. Basic academics are great, but if you're not taught the basics of organization and multitasking you are doomed to failure. With the danger of looking a bit like Arlo's conspiracy theorists, I will say that this is not a coincidence.
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From another forum, concerning something Obama said (but which could have come from Clinton as well):
Well, I clearly heard him say in a speech 4-5 wks ago that "we need to put more money into our schools" (with that trademark Obama-speech vagueness about the referent of "us").
Nobody should let THAT go by without asking him: "What about the Kansas City experiment?"
http://www.amren.com/ar/1995/12/index.html
When a theory has been thoroughly tested and found false, it ought to be discarded, oughtn't it?
JD
Not by American politicians, who find truth in campaign support. The NEA and AF of T say that more money is all the schools need. They need no evidence to say that, and evidence to the contrary can safely be discarded. This is the Voodoo Science of the 21st Century. See Man Caused Global Warming for another example.
But the myth that money can improve education survives all research. The studies have consistently shown that more money not only does not improve schools but often causes deterioration; and especially the state pays for attendance payment system. No one cares. Hillary hasn't a much different view from Obama. I don't know if either knows better, but it hardly matters. They will never say different.
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Originally posted by Arlo
The math I took in HS was more than adequate for the blue collar work enviroment. But let's go back to critical thought. That and a genuine desire to learn facts before forming conclusions. Can that be made mandatory? Especially in an enviroment where more and more in power managed to get there without it? Or is this something that requires nurturing, inspiration and example?
Arlo the math we're talking about is today's and tomorrow's, not yesterday's that can't be changed.
The math I took was simple enough that anyone could spend a week thinking over the few basic concepts of the whole semester or even year, and come out as informed as the guy that took the full course.. It all boiled down to very few discrete math ideas.
Desire to learn the fact before forming conclusions would be second nature if kids had understood that nothing is proven until it's proven. Empirical evidence is the last word, but abstract proof that something can't be is (or should be) precursor to that.
Logic is the precursor to critical thought. Without it you've got people making incorrect associations because they don't discern true from false enough. You can't get more brass tacks than that.
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Originally posted by sluggish
The whole idea of American public education is set up to fail. Basic academics are great, but if you're not taught the basics of organization and multitasking you are doomed to failure. With the danger of looking a bit like Arlo's conspiracy theorists, I will say that this is not a coincidence.
There's a rather big difference between a conspiracy theory (and yes, you present one beautifully) and an observation of cause and effect within society. That being said, can you offer direct support or dispute of this article without coming off like Mel Gibson in Conspiracy Theory (your personal issues with public education notwithstanding)? :noid :D
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Originally posted by moot
Arlo the math we're talking about is today's and tomorrow's, not yesterday's that can't be changed.
The math I took ... (snip)
Desire to learn the fact before forming conclusions would be second nature if kids had understood that nothing is proven until it's proven. Empirical evidence is the last word, but abstract proof that something can't be is (or should be) precursor to that.
Logic is the precursor to critical thought. Without it you've got people making incorrect associations because they don't discern true from false enough.
While I don't dispute the mechanics of logic (mathmatical or otherwise) and critical thought nor their relationship, you seem to be fixating on mathematics and avoiding my question regarding what you offered as the cure for the disease:
Originally posted by moot
Make introductory logic, philosophy and math a requirement in schools and the kids will take care of themselves. And the earlier in the curiculum, the better.
I'll repeat:
Originally posted by Arlo
But let's go back to critical thought. That and a genuine desire to learn facts before forming conclusions. Can that be made mandatory? Especially in an enviroment where more and more in power managed to get there without it? Or is this something that requires nurturing, inspiration and example?
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"The ultimate goal of the sincere man is to erect his beliefs into law".
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Originally posted by sluggish
"The ultimate goal of the sincere man is to erect his beliefs into law".
First, I wholeheartedly recommend proper attribution of quotes as well as the context behind their formation. Secondly, the can of worms this quote entails seems oblivious to you. But just to make it a certainty let's see how you think it properly applies by starting here:
Do you believe in moral legislation? If so by what group or individual enforcing what code of morals on what group that doesn't apparently have them? Bear in mind that history provides all sorts of examples. Upon review and in such context is your above used "quote" anything more than a randomly applied or biased one?
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Arlo the kids'll turn into lean mean thinking machines if you trim the fat off. A diet of 0% fat logic will do.
That doesn't mean boring lectures about dusty greeks, just basic demonstrations of simple logic, the building blocks of critical thought. Give the kids these tools and they'll eat information and crap out all sorts of very accurate assesments of anything that gets in their way... Whether that's critical thought on politics or society, ACM, or skirt flock mechanics.
The genuine desire to learn facts before coming to conclusions would be inherent to someone looking for a solution to his query... You don't "find" an answer when there's no question. No problem = no solution. No information = nothing to recognize a problem in the first place.
I say math because it's useful. Philosophy is less formal but more removed from material reality, e.g. blue collar tasks.
I mentionned the math I took because it's more recent than yours. It's closer to the state of things now, and doesn't seem to have changed much when I talk to my step brother who's going through HS now.
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Originally posted by moot
Arlo the kids'll turn into lean mean thinking machines if you trim the fat off. A diet of 0% fat logic will do.
The genuine desire to learn facts before coming to conclusions would be inherent to someone looking for a solution to his query...
I say math because it's useful. Philosophy is less formal but more removed from material reality, e.g. blue collar tasks.
I'm all for the basic building blocks being enforced in education at all levels. I support you in this. But I feel it doesn't present the only element required for solution. I would add that the instinct for critical thought is actually bred into us by nurturing parents who care more about their kids than their HDTV (those who don't tend to pass on this trait).
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I guess that's why you don't see the relevence of what I mentionned earlier. HDTVs and Myspace just don't matter as far as education is concerned.
If a kid is taught to think for himself correctly (i.e. has understood logic underlies everything), he'll recognize britney spears and other crap like it as just ephemeral artifacts, just fads, just bait on someone's hook.
You say instinct like it's a separate thing from reason, but I don't see the difference. Instinct is the most basic form of thought. Thought is reason... Reason is the precursor to any sort thought. Everything a kid does can be justified by a simple "why?". That's a matter of reason.
I don't mean to go around in circles Arlo, but that's all it comes down to, anyway you go about it. Teach kids to reason and they'll take care of themselves no matter what happens.
What precedes reason? I don't think anything does. Everything follows from reason. Making sure the integrity of kids' reasoning is flawless (or as nearly so as possible) is the best possible thing a parent can do. From that, everything follows: knowing when something doesn't add up one way or another.. I'm sorry but it's always about logic, plain and simple.
Kids are just thinking machines starting on a clean slate. They are what they eat and making sure they can make good proverbial diet decisions, or failing that, correctly digest something "unhealthy" on their own can be assured by giving them as early as possible the basic building blocks that "a genuine desire to learn facts before coming to conclusions" is made of.
They wouldn't need to be mandated to inform themselves before they made decisions, they'd do it on their own because it's "right". It just makes sense.
The only difference I see between learning and education at home and at school is the affective flavor at home.
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One of the things that hurts Ron Paul is that when he talks he comes off as an intellectual, which he is, but americans don't trust intellectuals.
There is a good reason why Dr Phil talks like a yokel and calls himself Dr "Phil".
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Yep.. From the start I had wished he was or had a more brawny running mate with the same values and policies. I thought Thompson could've been it, but unfortunately neither he nor anyone else seems to be it.
TBH though, I'd rather have a Patton or R. Lee Ermey teaching kids, than a Dr. Phil.
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I'm having a hard time empathizing or sympathizing with the author's point of view. I agree that today we reckon and figur' more than actually 'think' about topics, however, one population of 'intellectuals' has directly contributed to the dumbing down of America: Educators. Curriculums have been reduced into corn-syrupy, feel-good, self-love fests in which nothing really matters so long as we all care about students' feelings (to the neglect of their actual learning).
'Intellectuals' have claimed that topics in English class should be 'relevant' to students' backgrounds and lives...so out go the classics, and in comes "Poetry of Rap". The analysis of proven standards goes by the wayside, so we can keep them entertained.
I do understand the problem...I teach a core subject at a private university in a large metropolitan area. The students constantly ask "Will this be on the test". Forget learning about how the universe works...or even why Tylenol kills your liver when you're drinking alcohol. They just want an 'A' so they can get into Med school.
I don't have an answer, b/c, damn...the situation is way too far gone. I'm amazed that anything actually gets done anymore. Seriously. Who comes up with the energy efficient backlighting for our iPods so they run for 6 hours and weigh 4.5 oz? Or encode the gene into bacteria that produces the next anti-tumor wonderdrug at Genentech? Actually, I do know b/c I've seen these employees...and their accents are a dead giveaway that they're not a product of the American educational system.
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Originally posted by moot
I guess that's why you don't see the relevence of what I mentionned earlier. HDTVs and Myspace just don't matter as far as education is concerned.
If a kid is taught to think for himself correctly (i.e. has understood logic underlies everything), he'll recognize britney spears and other crap like it as just ephemeral artifacts, just fads, just bait on someone's hook.
When I studied cognitive developement, one of the things that struck me was the statement that nearly half of all adults never develope to the point at which they can reason logically things abstract.
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Kamilyun are you sure you're not talking about psuedointellectuals?
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I think those mediocre people in the US are that way because they're spoiled. And they don't eat to live anymore.. They live to eat - junk food, junk TV, junk everything that keeps them alive enough to keep the commerce going, but not enough for them to be all they can be.
Hangtime and others are right, without any peril people grow too complacent. Being sheltered by too much comfort fools people into thinking that they can just sit on their laurels..
I've been out of the US for 3 years now, but that's what I remember. YMMV.
Originally posted by Suave
When I studied cognitive developement, one of the things that struck me was the statement that nearly half of all adults never develope to the point at which they can reason logically things abstract.
Yep.. I don't mean to brag but I recognized this myself at around 13-14yo, if not before that.
People's brains seem to solidify if they stop exposure to variety for long enough. I tried like hell to keep my little brothers' brains plastic enough. I hope it works out because it makes a huge difference, long term.
Idealy (IMO) you should be living in a constant flux of Problem -> Solution. The instant a problem is clearly defined, a solution (even if only its topology) should appear. This cycle should be as fluid and free as possible, never ending because no two moments in time are the same.. No one solution can really be used twice.
Sorry for rambling :)
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Originally posted by moot
I guess that's why you don't see the relevence of what I mentionned earlier. HDTVs and Myspace just don't matter as far as education is concerned.
I think you focused on the wrong element of my statement. I could of said ".... more important to the parent than their car." Or " .... more important to the parent than their new girl/boyfriend." The most important part of nurturing positive traits into children is their parent caring enough to do so. It's not the idol/altar we choose to sacrifice our children on ... it's the decision to make the sacrifice for our own selfish ends.
It's not an uncommon opinion. :)
That being said, we seem to agree about the importance of a practical education. I just believe the effective method of the rearing/education of children involves parental involvement.
I could have had all the mandatory classes/tools available at the school facilites one could possibly dream of but if my parents failed to instill in me a desire for growth my grades would've been superficial (and quite possibly marginal). I could have little to no resources and no mandatory classes of any kind enforced on me yet if my parents managed to instill in me a strong thirst for knowledge and the basic tools of critical thought and problem solving ... I could quite possibly manage to still aquire the additional knowledge necessary over a lifetime of library visits, community college night courses or even the dreaded electronic medium via PBS.
The Yale of Bush's college days had all the tools necessary to form a mind capable of effective critical thought. And yes, there are times I wonder if the Bush family was as functional (versus disfunctional) as it pretends it was during W's formative years (no more than suspicion born of characteristics observed, however).
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Originally posted by moot
I think those mediocre people in the US are that way because they're spoiled. And they don't eat to live anymore.. They live to eat - junk food, junk TV, junk everything that keeps them alive enough to keep the commerce going, but not enough for them to be all they can be.
I completely agree. I may do so with somewhat of a guilty conscious but I do. This may lead to a personal [re]awakening.
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Of course parents' involvement is cruical.. Kids are still predisposed for it. It would make for a pretty alien livelihood otherwise. It would be a less elegant solution, to the "problem" of raising kids.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Despite an aggressive marketing campaign aimed at encouraging babies as young as 6 months to watch videos, there is no evidence that focusing on a screen is anything but bad for infants and toddlers. In a study released last August, University of Washington researchers found that babies between 8 and 16 months recognized an average of six to eight fewer words for every hour spent watching videos.
Interesting study. Our son has had free reign of the TV since he was a toddler (he turns three tommorrow). Primaily we let him watch the educational disney channel, no advertising, and has some nice stuff like Little Einsteins (and I don't mind watching the girls on Hi5 :) )
He hasn't turned into a tv gazing gaping kid as predicted. He likes to mix up his activities and prefers to relax in front of tv with one of us rather than watch it alone.
His vocabulary is quite suprising too, from example he identifies different types of birds, such as ducks, seagulls, hawks and owls. Now at no time has anyone taught him about owls, he must have picked this up from TV. There are many other words in his vocabulary we know he must of picked up from TV.
Maybe it's what they're letting them watch thats the issue.
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The types of media should be as varied as possible.. Obviously kids should learn to live in the real world that encompasses everything else, not only the laws of the cathodic tube's world.
Kids learn multiple words and "things" of a same type at a time. And they have a sense of numbers as early as three months.
My mother put on classical music on her belly while I was in there.. I can't say much about that, but I do remember loving to learn more of those books with an object for each letter, and from books that illustrated how things worked. It was like a drug.. It set the cogs in my head in motion and I loved it.
This was very early. Like 3-5 years old I think.. That I can recommend.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Maybe it's what they're letting them watch thats the issue.
Could well be. I'm a strong advocate of public television. Even for adults. Good stuff there.
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Moot it's interesting you bring that up. My TV stopped working years ago and I never replaced it. Last time I went to visit my family and their kids I was surprised by what total crap was coming out of the TV, guess I had just forgotten. As far as I'm concerned you could've just put a big neon sign in the living room that said "BUY STUPID CRAP" and that would've achieved the same thing as the TV but quieter. But the thing is, the TV was like the center of their domestic world. And I imagine most other families are the same; go to work/school come home do chores, eat, everybody sits around the TV, go to bed, repeat.
TV is just an animated billboard in your house. Britney spears and modern pop stars remind of NASCAR race cars, product logos stamped all over them. I think "Musicians" are created now ala american idol by the corperate merchants to promote consumption.
There are some usefull things on TV if you look for them. Sometimes I'll be at a hotel or a friends house and I'll catch something interesting on bbc or military channel or something. But it's rarely worth the time, it's just something to occupy oneself when you can't get back to your life at the moment.
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Originally posted by Suave
TV is just an animated billboard in your house. Britney spears and modern pop stars remind of NASCAR race cars, product logos stamped all over them.
Yeah.. Going round and round, leading to nowhere else than themselves.. An endless repetition.
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It is past time for a serious national discussion about whether, as a nation, we truly value intellect and rationality.
You better have a quick snappy slogan for this discussion or you will not get the message through. Better hire some fancy Hollywood celebs to host it in order to attract ratings and commercial breaks to sponsor it: "the following intellectual discussion is brought to you by McDonalds. Big Mac, food for thought".
The situation is near hopeless. It can only be reset by a big nasty explosion that no one, especially the intellectuals would like to witness. Entertainment is more attractive than thinking, just like drugs are better relief than working to improve your life. This is how humans are built.
Schools do not need to teach that the Sun revolves around the earth. For the vast majority of people this will not make any difference in their life if they had it the wrong way around. What schools do need to teach, and here they fail miserably (for a good reason that will follow), is how to learn. Schools need to supply the tools, not the knowledge (this will come as a welcomed by product). They need to teach how to read a text or watch a film (text in its wider sense) and extract the main points out of it. To sort out the information by type (fact vs. deduction vs. opinion). To be able to retrace logical reasoning and find faults in it - if there are. And finally, to be able to extract previous information and use it on a new situation. No school that I know teach that way.
Schools will continue to be the way they are because the state prefers a system that indoctrinates its children for lowest kind of patriotism and complete lack of rational criticism. This works well for the men in power and the men with money by making the public easier to manage and reduce social mobility. There is simply no interest for a real change in those who have the power to do it without bloodshed.
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Originally posted by Suave
... But the thing is, the TV was like the center of their domestic world.
I don't have a TV for years now. Just never got one since I moved out of my parents place. My wife and I always find it interesting how in a house that have a TV, there always seem to be some form of shrine built around it.
Old living room furniture had a place for the TV that was part of a cupboard that you could close and hide the TV. Most of todays living rooms display the TV as a centerpiece for the whole room. The pride and main focus of the room design. No designer in their right mind would imagine their customer would wish to NOT see the TV.
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comes down to socialist schools in the end don't it? teach down to the dumbest.. make it so schools get paid by the head and by attendance and this is what you get.
make sure those teachers get more and more money for working less hours tho... new holidays and teachers days and yoga days.
lazs
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sheesh.. you guys are talking about higher math and philosophy and ignoring the fact that the teachers are teaching down to kids who don't even speak english. who only work 6 months a year and whose classrooms resemble a riot more than anything else.
lazs
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No doubt the dumbing of America is a fact. I blame both parents and the gubmint-run public education system (or teachers, if you will). Both should be attacking popular culture, endless political correctness, victim mentalities and the real racism - rationalization for unacceptable conduct, low scholastic performance, and a performance bar that is continually being lowered. but they don't.
The Kansas City experience is relevant regarding the folly of just throwing money at the problem of differences in achievement among different groups - in effect trying to affect change from the outside-in rather than the inside-out.
I know from my own personal observation, when we allowed my 12 year old daughter to go to a magnet school where she would be one of a small handful of white kids, so-called magnet schools, at least in Florida, are a total flop as to their intended purpose.
Driving her to school one morning I saw a large black man wearing a totally purple suit, purple shirt, purple pants, with a purple felt super-fly hat complete with a feather, and glossy purple paten-leather shoes, walking kids across the intersection. This is not an exaggeration. I said to my kid - "Hey check that out!" She said, oh that's Mr. So and So, he's the principle. He thinks he's a fashion dude."
My daughter is a delightful kid. Warm hearted, always cheerful, very outgoing chatterbox - a social butterfly. Her name is Brookie. Almost all the black kids loved her - she quickly got a nickname - "Lil' B." My daughter's black girlfriends always protected her from aggressive foul mouthed young black males. One time, they beat the living crap out of a kid who tried to grab my daughter - they took their shoes off and beat the snot out the kid with them. My daughter learned more foul language in the first day at that school than she had ever heard in her previous 12 years of life.
School orientation and subsequent visits to the school were a total joke. Almost all the teachers were black, and I'm guessing they must have attended colleges with special admissions programs for minorities. Any time you visited the school, events were poorly planned, mass confusion, parents walking around in circles trying to follow incorrect directions to classrooms, and worst of all, teachers speaking ebonics.
Notes to home from the teachers very often had misspelled words. This magnet school was a total disappointment even though my kid did well and adjusted well. This particular magnet school went from a "D" rating overall to an "F" rating for the school year, which according to the rules, allowed my daughter to switch to any other school in the county if she wished. So she now goes to a high rated school in a white part of town.
I still call her "Lil' B", though. :)
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I put my grand daughter in catholic school.
The level she is learning at is at least on par with what it was 50 years ago. she is pretty much learning at a level 2 or more grades higher than the public schools around her.
Soooooo.. can anyone figure out what the problem with the dumbing of America might be?
lazs
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I can't help but smirk while reading this thread. The irony of hypocrisy almost always amuses me.
I could quite possibly manage to still aquire the additional knowledge necessary over a lifetime of library visits
I may do so with somewhat of a guilty conscious but I do.
:lol
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Originally posted by lazs2
comes down to socialist schools in the end don't it? teach down to the dumbest.. make it so schools get paid by the head and by attendance and this is what you get.
make sure those teachers get more and more money for working less hours tho... new holidays and teachers days and yoga days.
lazs
I completely agree. From what I remember of grammar school, they STARTED to separate us in 5th grade for Math. It really wasn't until 7th grade that we were fully split up for everything based off of skill.
But could you imagine the Yuppie Uproar that would be caused by telling them that their kid is slightly smarter then a brick?
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Soooooo.. can anyone figure out what the problem with the dumbing of America might be?
lazs
I'm gonna stick my neck out here. Maybe we should take foolish people out of responsible positions that oversee education. It is a daunting job tho - you are dealing with the NEA, if memory serves, and they are almost as powerful as the auto unions who have met the end of their useful existence.
Socialism failed wherever it was tried.
It is outragious that a Socialist group has such sway over our kids. Register me as an enemy of the NEA.
I would like the NEA to explain their failures in Detroit.
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Good article. Thanks for posting it. I can't agree with 100% of it 100% of the time, but it addresses a painful truth and calls it what it is.
Somewhere along the way of (supposedly) not telling us what to think, the "system" forgot to teach us how to think. I didn't even know what a logical fallacy was until my early 30s. That's a shame. On the bright side, it's never too late to start.
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I dont buy any of this crap.
Its all just more media garbage.
Look around you, are the people you associate with idiots and dolts, crackheads and thieves? Or are you simply one of those supremely gifted ultra-talented humans that have a high number of liberal arts majors as your inner clique of super-informed mega-brained friends?
Again, Garbage. Its all garbage.
Now......if the people you associate with do not have a high school education, are in their 30s and smoke crack for fun, then you are probably right where you deserve to be, but the vast majority of us are intelligent hard working people with families and have a life long approach to education.
Some of you guys seem over eager to get tooled by media bull*****.
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Originally posted by lazs2
comes down to socialist schools in the end don't it? teach down to the dumbest.. make it so schools get paid by the head and by attendance and this is what you get.
make sure those teachers get more and more money for working less hours tho... new holidays and teachers days and yoga days.
lazs
Leave it to Laz to add two plus two and proudly claim it equals whatever his agenda tells him it does in this thread too. :D
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
I can't help but smirk while reading this thread. The irony of hypocrisy almost always amuses me.
:lol
I'm sure you can find whatever you want to if you look hard enough but apparently you have a tough time explaining it sufficiently. :D
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My thanks to all the outraged defensives standing up to be counted. :)
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The article reads like we are returning to the middle ages in regard to the education of the masses. But this time around it's not the Catholic Church controling access to knowlege. If I'm not mistaken, this time around they are worried themselves that we are falling back into an uneducated dark ages.
Since it's not the evil christians controling knowlege this round of history ....who's the evil at bat this time???
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Originally posted by Arlo
I'm sure you can find whatever you want to if you look hard enough but apparently you have a tough time explaining it sufficiently. :D
Perhaps someone will point it out to you.
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Originally posted by Arlo
I'm sure you can find whatever you want to if you look hard enough but apparently you have a tough time explaining it sufficiently. :D
Perhaps you are just having a tough time grasping the explanation. :)
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Perhaps someone will point it out to you.
And it looks like it won't be you anytime soon. :D
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Perhaps you are just having a tough time grasping the explanation. :)
Or you.
So ..... heh.
Must be a mutual "feel good" claim of hypocricy. ;)
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Originally posted by lazs2
comes down to socialist schools in the end don't it? teach down to the dumbest.. make it so schools get paid by the head and by attendance and this is what you get.
make sure those teachers get more and more money for working less hours tho... new holidays and teachers days and yoga days.
lazs
sheesh.. you guys are talking about higher math and philosophy and ignoring the fact that the teachers are teaching down to kids who don't even speak english. who only work 6 months a year and whose classrooms resemble a riot more than anything else.
lazs
August to June=/=6 months...
Your 'yoga days' dont quite work either. In my area, many 'minor' holidays that students have off, are called 'In service days'-which means the students have off, but teachers have to go to plan lessons and grade papers and such.
And, Im not sure what schools your going off of, but most schools have something called an ESL (English as a Second Language) class for kids who dont speak English.
I completely agree. From what I remember of grammar school, they STARTED to separate us in 5th grade for Math. It really wasn't until 7th grade that we were fully split up for everything based off of skill.
But could you imagine the Yuppie Uproar that would be caused by telling them that their kid is slightly smarter then a brick?
Same here-was put in 'advanced' 'class' with a few other select students in fifth grade. In sixth grade (and, going from that into 7th and 8th grade) everyone took a test to get their class placement. Depending on how well you scored, you either took the grade level math (for example, in 8th grade its Algebra), or the next grade level's math (in 8th grade, you would take Geometry in this instance-which you would normally take in 9th grade). If you did VERY well you would take 2 or 3 years advanced math (Algebra II, trigonometry, etc.) If you do very poorly, you would be tutored, but for the most part the people who do poorly it doesnt matter as they dont care in the first place (thus they wont learn no matter how much they are tutored).
I put my grand daughter in catholic school.
The level she is learning at is at least on par with what it was 50 years ago. she is pretty much learning at a level 2 or more grades higher than the public schools around her.
Soooooo.. can anyone figure out what the problem with the dumbing of America might be?
lazs
Thats interesting. I know a LOT of people from Catholic schools and the curriculum pretty well matches up with what we're learning (infact, in math especially, its mirrored). In past years I've actually had people transfer from the local Catholic school to my middle school.
Soooooo.. can anyone figure out what the problem with the dumbing of America might be?
Probably the fact that the current generation has not been taught to care about their education.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Or you.
So ..... heh.
Must be a mutual "feel good" claim of hypocricy. ;)
:rofl
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Originally posted by Arlo
Do you? :D
In fact I do.
However, I think you might want to review the BBS rules, this one in particular:
17- Threads started devoid of commentary will not be allowed (i.e. links, cut-n-pastes, clicky, read this...)
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Originally posted by Toad
In fact I do.
However, I think you might want to review the BBS rules, this one in particular:
So ... having shared mine by now ... you're avoiding sharing yours yet complaining I didn't initially do so becauuuuuuse ..... ?
Regarding the BBS lawyering .... did you get busted on that once? The only reason I can fathom for bruised feelings over this thread, it's nature or anything else without actually participating beyond that specific whine yerownself. Guilty! Turn me in! :D
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Originally posted by lazs2
comes down to socialist schools in the end don't it? teach down to the dumbest.. make it so schools get paid by the head and by attendance and this is what you get.
make sure those teachers get more and more money for working less hours tho... new holidays and teachers days and yoga days.
lazs
Have to agree with lazs on this, from personal experience when I was in secondary school (ages 13-17ish). I started at an all-boys school with graded classes, ie smart cards go in the smart class, dumb kids go in the dumb class, it was an excellent learning experience. Half way through secondary school my father got transfered and I ended up in what lazs would term a co-ed 'socialist' school', no grading of classes, if you were above the level of education being dished out then you were on your own.
After 6 months I decided to teach myself and push ahead. It made a big dffierence imho in the results I came out with.
The difference in the teachers was noticable too, the 'socialist' school teachers were only interesting in pushing their beliefs on you. Whereas the all-boys school teachers were more interested in helping you learn and make decisions for yourself.
Since then I believe most NZ schools have gone downhill towards this socialist style and our education system is pretty poor now. It is also well known that the education system specifically works around hitting numbers that make it look good on paper, especially when compared internationally.
Finally a couple of my larger clients are schools, one with over 20000 students (big for this place), and the teachers there *SCARE* me.
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And to think ..... the true nature of this thread/article didn't center around the political hotspot topic of public schools.
Even if it did ... the public school system, itself, isn't the culprit regarding the unfortunate and steady drop in practical critical thought in this country. Remember .... Bush .... Yale education .... about as smart as a pothole. The culprit is the focus of the article. It doesn't matter that the sun doesn't revolve around the earth or you can't find Canada on a map ... all that matters is prayer in schools, fighting terrorism by waging war on it until it magically disappears in a century or two and shooting people on sight for lighting up a flag. It ... just ... doesn't ... matter!
:D
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Originally posted by Arlo
First, I wholeheartedly recommend proper attribution of quotes as well as the context behind their formation. Secondly, the can of worms this quote entails seems oblivious to you. But just to make it a certainty let's see how you think it properly applies by starting here:
Do you believe in moral legislation? If so by what group or individual enforcing what code of morals on what group that doesn't apparently have them? Bear in mind that history provides all sorts of examples. Upon review and in such context is your above used "quote" anything more than a randomly applied or biased one?
My god. The only word I can think of to describe you is smarmy. You wear your elitism on your sleeve. Your preconceived notion of superiority is obvious. Do you wallow here in this cesspool of ignorance to enlighten us or to reinforce your feelings of self-righteousness?
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Originally posted by sluggish
My god. The only word I can think of to describe you is smarmy. You wear your elitism on your sleeve. Your preconceived notion of superiority is obvious. Do you wallow here in this cesspool of ignorance to enlighten us or to reinforce your feelings of self-righteousness?
Obvious? Heh. Let me give you a prime example of obvious:
"Elitism! Waaaaaaa!"
*Sproing* You just said the magic word. Project that righteous indignation while presenting the perfect example to support what the article asserted.
:aok :D
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Arlo, I've been a bit too busy for the bbs lately.
I scan it now and again and noticed that once again you throw something out without offering an opinion. As others debate, you continue to ask more questions without really adding much if anything of your own opinion.
You may think you are Socrates himself but what you are doing is the very definition of trolling.
Ask Skuzzy if you doubt my evaluation.
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Originally posted by Toad
Arlo, I've been a bit too busy for the bbs lately.
I scan it now and again and noticed that once again you throw something out without offering an opinion. As others debate, you continue to ask more questions without really adding much if anything of your own opinion.
You may think you are Socrates himself but what you are doing is the very definition of trolling.
Ask Skuzzy if you doubt my evaluation.
Well heck ... your evaluation is duly noted and properly filed. Carry on if you got nuthin' else. :)
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Arlo, your an intellectual of sorts. What do you think of Barack Obama as a potential President? Not compared to anyone else.
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Hmmm ... no comparisons. I think he has potential. Vision. The ability to inspire and motivate. The desire for change. Granted, "conservatives" said the same thing about W ... and they apparently didn't need practical comparisons to come to their conclusions, either. I'm thinking comparisons ... and realistic ones ... are a necessity. But everyone's opinion on realistic comparison and positive attributes vary.
Do you see potential in Obama ... no comparisons in the way? :)
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I do think he has potential, but I worry about his stance on the 2nd amendment and I worry about his overall lack of experience which I believe is important.
He is a smart guy with an even smarter woman by his side, but like liberals worried about Bush, I wonder who will be controlling Obama if he gains the seat of President.
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Originally posted by Yeager
I do think he has potential, but I worry about his stance on the 2nd amendment and I worry about his overall lack of experience which I believe is important.
He is a smart guy with an even smarter woman by his side, but like liberals worried about Bush, I wonder who will be controlling Obama if he gains the seat of President.
I don't see Obama quite the patsy. And experience, regarding the position, is always gained on the job. However, I will be interested to see who he proposes as a running mate and possibly his considerations for cabinet positions. It's never just a one man job. We've seen that. :)
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He wants to cut cut space development for education. Can someone make sense of that?
NASA is a tiny proportion of the budget, so why cut it when 1) you can get bigger returns by actualy reshaping the existing educational system into something efficient, 2) you need some goal for education to lead kids to.
Cutting a measly 1% program such as NASA isn't worth the absence of something that inspires those kids along their way, nor the loss of american leadership in the field (already happening, nevermind with even less funds), nor the industry that benefits and depends from it.
Then, he's also well connected with some usual suspects like Soro... or I forgot the exact names. He looks like just another corrupt professional crowd pleaser.
Worse still if he's stuck in the Left/Right bipartisan mindset that'll have him mirror whatever the party does, and bias himself not for what's constitutional and whatever actualy works, but whatever goes against the Republicans.
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Interesting, I just read her article. Honestly, she's full of ****.
In some of the opening paragraphs she mentions how she was hiding up in a tree house reading a lot of books. However, she never mentioned that all the other kids were out playing stick ball in the street.
Most of this isn't a lash out against ignorance. It's a lash out against the popular and the trendy.
She went through college thinking her brains were all she's needed. And when people insulted her for never really earning anything, she lashed out at the anti-intellectuals.
She isn't asking to make children these days better. She's trying to validate her current failure in life.
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So .... his making a priority of improving potential NASA scientists and astronauts over the current ones (fixing America's broken educational system - our potential) ... as well as a feeling of his having a Soros connection of some sort ....
Huh?
:)
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Originally posted by Yeager
Arlo, your an intellectual of sorts.
:lol
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
It's a lash out against the popular and the trendy.
She went through college thinking her brains were all she's needed. And when people insulted her for never really earning anything, she lashed out at the anti-intellectuals.
While I've seen dumbing down become a popular trendy thing .... I hate to tell ya ... brains are a good thing to have in college. May not be "necessary" ... for some. Take W. But let's not pick on such cause ... well ... it's ... just ... not ... important. :)
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Originally posted by Arlo
While I've seen dumbing down become a popular trendy thing .... I hate to tell ya ... brains are a good thing to have in college. May not be "necessary" ... for some. Take W. But let's not pick on such cause ... well ... it's ... just ... not ... important. :)
We ALWAYS think that the current times are the worst that has ever been. That things were better in the past.
But it's always the same as it has ever been.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
:lol
Give Steve his props. Jealousy (oops) is an ugly thing. He's mentioned his special education more than once and nobody appreciates it. :D
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Arlo like I said, why kill NASA when it's just 1% budget? The real problem with NASA is red tape. Axing it for its few bad apples, when it would make more sense to improvise an adapted solution to the problem, is like opening a can with a sledgehammer... It's messy and solves the problem with another problem.
It just sounds like he's plainly not interested in any space development rather than looking to improve it.
It'd be more effective to source 1% of the budget from elsewhere, like welfare or something.
The Soros connection is something someone brought up, I didn't take the time to look it up. But that and everything else I've heard sounds like he's just another cookie cutter bipartisan player. Not true to the constitution, not offering real solutions to the gun crime problem besides just axing the 2nd amendment. Just my impression.. It's not like I won't be pleased to be proven wrong.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Give Steve his props. Jelousy is an ugly thing. He's mentioned his special education more than once and nobody appreciates it. :D
I'm hardly jealous of a guy who doesn't know the difference between conscious and conscience; the same guy who can't spell "acquire".
Poser.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
I'm hardly jealous of a guy who doesn't know the difference between conscious and conscience; the same guy who can't spell "acquire".
Poser.
Well damn my spellchecker. Impress me with something. I never posed. I never proclaimed myself the best edumacated of the AHBB. But you have. So .... ummmm .... got milk? :D
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Lordy,
Some of the most intellectual people I've ever met have been heavily pro-US. Three of them chose to work there.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Well damn my spellchecker. Impress me with something. I never posed. I never proclaimed myself the best edumacated of the AHBB. But you have. So .... ummmm .... got milk? :D
mmmmm milk. :aok
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Originally posted by moot
It just sounds like he's plainly not interested in any space development rather than looking to improve it.
It'd be more effective to source 1% of the budget from elsewhere, like welfare or something.
Could be .... but it can also mean he places more importance on the education of our youth than NASA currently. That's nowhere near the crisis pouring hundreds of billions into IRAQ to pay Halliburton to rip off the taxpayer is. And the 1% could also come out of corporate subsidies if they're gonna pizz away taxes to retire their CEOs with 9 figures anyway.
*ShruG*
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
mmmmm milk. :aok
So, sweetcheeks .... you're just flashing your brains to tease me? Heh.
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Originally posted by Arlo
... the public school system, itself, isn't the culprit regarding the unfortunate and steady drop in practical critical thought in this country. Remember .... Bush .... Yale education .... about as smart as a pothole. The culprit is the focus of the article. It doesn't matter that the sun doesn't revolve around the earth or you can't find Canada on a map ... all that matters is prayer in schools, fighting terrorism by waging war on it until it magically disappears in a century or two and shooting people on sight for lighting up a flag. It ... just ... doesn't ... matter!
:D
An expensive education is not evidence of a person having been well-educated. In and of itself it points only to possible assumptions:
Person X paid a large sum of money and graduated from a prestigious school. The school has a reputation of only graduating people who can meet very high standards of Y. Therefore, person X can demonstrate very high standards of Y. It just doesn't work without assumptions.
Is it possible the writer's hypothesis is to the effect that an overall increase in the quality of education would lead to an inevitable decline in the popular distractions she's blasting?
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Originally posted by VOR
An expensive education is not evidence of a person having been well-educated.
:aok
Most of the so called intellectuals are self proclaimed anyway.
Some of the ones who I have seen that spent Mommy and Daddy`s retirement and second mortgage on being a career student couldn`t poor piss out a boot with directions on the bottom. Useless as teats on a boar hog when it comes to common sense. (Some more of them ole down home sayings :))
Others who line their walls with different degrees, etc. end up doing make do work that amounts to zilch.
An education is one thing. Actually putting it use and having a reason for what you are studying is another entirely .
Most of the everyday problems that are solved and the most needed inventions, etc. are accomplished by your everyday Joe who sees a problem or has a goal and goes for it.
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well.. when I was in school they divided the classes into three groups.. one was "advanced" one was normal and one was for the dummies.
Might have hurt the dummies feelings but.. they/we didn't drag the rest of the class down.
arlo worries that this thread isn't going the way he likes.. the teachers here get defensive and make some outrageous claims (for kalifornia anyway) about how private and public schools are the same.
Fact is.. it is about schools.. we were not smarter or better in our schools of 40 years ago or more... it was a different school system tho.
In kalifornia the public schools get paid by the head. there are many many non, or little english speakers.. all this takes time away from the bright kids.
They still do have some advanced classes but not every one.. the bright kids still get mixed in with the dummies and illegals and waste many hours of the day.
I go to pick up my grand daughter.. it is a well behaved and happy group at the the catholic school with respect for the teachers.. I have to pick up one of her friends at the public school.. it is a zoo.. the kids talk.. her friend is learning at dummy level.
as for the 6 months.. it is 6 months that teachers teach if you count the real time they spend... holidays and short days and the "break" every 50 minutes.
in any case.. they are by far the highest paid part time workers I have ever seen except consultants maybe.
So long as we let democrats tell us that we don't need vouchers and that it is wrong to not put illegals and idiots and troublemakers in school... we will have a continued dummy of America.. no nasa or any abstract silliness will change that.
People aren't different.. the way they are taught sure is tho. the people doing the teaching are too.
lazs
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Originally posted by moot
He wants to cut cut space development for education. Can someone make sense of that?
NASA is a tiny proportion of the budget, so why cut it when 1) you can get bigger returns by actualy reshaping the existing educational system into something efficient, 2) you need some goal for education to lead kids to.
Cutting a measly 1% program such as NASA isn't worth the absence of something that inspires those kids along their way, nor the loss of american leadership in the field (already happening, nevermind with even less funds), nor the industry that benefits and depends from it.
Then, he's also well connected with some usual suspects like Soro... or I forgot the exact names. He looks like just another corrupt professional crowd pleaser.
Worse still if he's stuck in the Left/Right bipartisan mindset that'll have him mirror whatever the party does, and bias himself not for what's constitutional and whatever actualy works, but whatever goes against the Republicans.
Moot where did you hear about this? I'd really like to read it, I feel the same way as you, cutting NASA's budget is a really bad idea, there's alot of potential from things we can learn about from space, cutting it's budget is just the wrong thing, if anything it's budget needs to be increased, currently I believe they only get around 14-16 billion a year, we probably spend that in Iraq in a month.
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Originally posted by Arlo
So, sweetcheeks .... you're just flashing your brains to tease me? Heh.
I'd rather talk about yummy milk and cookies than exchange friendly little jabs.
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Would the owner of the red leather purse ,with the braided strap, please claim it at the concession stand please?
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I suspect that as we approach the election, and obama will need to articulate "with more clarity" the changes that would happen to america under his rule, we will see his ratings decline in proportion to the clarity he provides.
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Originally posted by Yeager
I suspect that as we approach the election, and obama will need to articulate "with more clarity" the changes that would happen to america under his rule, we will see his ratings decline in proportion to the clarity he provides.
No one is going to make Obama clarify his position.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Soooooo.. can anyone figure out what the problem with the dumbing of America might be?
lazs
I can point to the fact that people such as yourself, are unable to put serious, complex thought into any given issue.
You are governed by your opinion, which, you have been told is as real as the next person's, and therefore you put as much weight on it as proveable facts. (of which it is completely different)
That is the problem with the "dumbing of america". You get all the strength of an opinion founded in free will, without the baseline of knowledge with which to develope a sound, reasoned judgement.
Your posting, in general, is indicative of such.
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Originally posted by lazs2
arlo worries that this thread isn't going the way he likes..
As usual, you presume too much. This thread seems fine. Even with your obsessive compulsion to sprinkle your personal agenda on it to taste. :D
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
I'd rather talk about yummy milk and cookies than exchange friendly little jabs.
Well, if you feel compelled to participate but you're limited in how much you can contribute, do your best. :)
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Originally posted by Yeager
I suspect that as we approach the election, and obama will need to articulate "with more clarity" the changes that would happen to america under his rule, we will see his ratings decline in proportion to the clarity he provides.
Didn't affect Bush's support one bit. And Obama actually seems more clear at this point in his campaign than the POTUS still seems at this point in his last term. Will it be nice to see the vision turn out to be a practical plan? Sure. Hillary has a detailed shopping/housecleaning list from what I've seen. But Obama inspires .... and seems more than willing to listen to those who have the experience and skills to do the jobs he'll delegate without micromanaging or letting a "good ol boys" agenda group influence. I don't see your dire prediction coming to fruition. (Steve, did I use "fruition" correctly? Spell it right? Thanks.)
Still beside the point of the article, though (in spite of some of the examples provided in it.)
:)
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Arlo..
Seriously.... this thread is bound to spiral to the ground on this particular bbs.
3/4 of the respondents are more concerned about their guns than their brains.
Anyhow, good luck with watching the rocks around you overturn as they crawl out.
Idea for your next thread.. "Evolution...From Bonobo to Barney Fife". You'll get the same respondents spewing the same vehement opinions.
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moray I think your taking yourself too seriosuly, again :rolleyes:
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Heh. Quite honestly, I presented the article neutrally and hoped it could inspire fair exchange (silly me). So far I've had Toad having a cow because my opinion (later alluded to ... and not cryptically ... throughout the thread) wasn't clear enough from the start and therefore a rules violation (I suspect he has sore toes over from having been nicked on such before) .... Laz condemning socialism ... a couple of individuals screaming "Elitist!" at the top of their lungs (providing the perfect example for the article) and Steve calling me a poser (intellectual) for posting and not being as arrogant about my educational background as he occasionally feels prone to be.
All in all it's been fairly ... typical.
I don't generally start threads. I've had folks complain about that too. Well .... of course you can't make everyone happy. But that wasn't what this was about, either.
:D
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Originally posted by Yeager
moray I think your taking yourself too seriosuly, again :rolleyes:
Attack away. I'm used to it.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion.
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oh, I dont know.....on the entertainment scale I wold give this thread a 7 out of 10, and that aint bad.
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no attack bro, just feeling sorry for ya, sort of ;)
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Originally posted by Yeager
moray I think your taking yourself too seriosuly, again :rolleyes:
As well, in a post dealing with education, or lack thereof, your post is somewhat amusing.
Seriously.
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Originally posted by Yeager
no attack bro, just feeling sorry for ya, sort of ;)
Sorry for me?
That's incredibly elitist, and I scoff at you.
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I fart in your general direction!
:aok
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Very entertaining and educating thread, especially all the fencing with words :) Thanks for starting it, Arlo.
However, being a foreigner, I must disqualify myself from participating in this kind of internal discussion. Keep it going. All the delicious argumentation is well appreciated :aok
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Originally posted by Arlo
Heh. Quite honestly, I presented the article neutrally and hoped it could inspire fair exchange (silly me).
This is either untrue or your attention span is too short.
If it was your intent to "inspire fair exchange", you'd presumably want to participate in it. It appears that you spent most of your time poking the chimps thru the bars, though. The chimp response was pretty predictable and you certainly knew what to expect of them, so "inspiring fair exchange" is an unlikely motive considering how easily distracted you were by all the screeching and howling (silly you). Of course, you could have changed your mind mid-stride, but an intelligent guy interested in "inspiring fair exchange" wouldn't probably get so easily distracted by the obvious and decide to poke the chimps in lieu of pursuing the "meaningful exchange" he wanted to inspire.
That leaves option A (untrue statement) as the only possibility. Admit it: you wanted to poke the chimps. Just admit it.
I know I'm right. I've seen the "Messin' with Sasquatch" t.v. ads.
Sadist! :D
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Originally posted by Arlo
Well, if you feel compelled to participate but you're limited in how much you can contribute, do your best. :)
I can contribute cookies. My wife makes great cookies.
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Originally posted by VOR
This is either untrue or your attention span is too short.
Well ... while you're accusing me of either being a liar, mistaken in premise or having ADD (or a combination thereof) try trotting back through the thread and looking for my lack of topical participation again. May not be mine (or lack of mine) you find. Then we'll go back over definitions and righteousness. :D
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
I can contribute cookies. My wife makes great cookies.
So .... your wife can contribute the cookies. Well, I might suggest leaving your wife's cookies out of this knowing the crowd. Carry on. :D
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Originally posted by MORAY37
That is the problem with the "dumbing of america". You get all the strength of an opinion founded in free will, without the baseline of knowledge with which to develope a sound, reasoned judgement.
Your posting, in general, is indicative of such.
It's no use. Every once in a while I come back here to just to re-affirm what I already know.
I actually read Yeager say something to the effect of 'I don't see what has been wrong with Bush's foreign policy during his presidency'.
I mean, you know, where do you start with that? It's impossible. You could try and show him Tom Clancy's book that he did with General Zinni (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5053682/) and say 'ok, seriously, when Tom Clancy says the war was mishandled, and Rummy was an idiot, and the planning that went into it was horrific, and the whole pulling Saddam out of a hole, giving him a show trial, keeping western reporters away from him so he doesn't tell everyone how the CIA backed his use of gas on the Iranians, how the way oil is REALLY controlled, and instead hang him right away to shut him up - even if you discard that and just look at what Clancy and Zinni say about how the occupation was handled, how de-bathification was a disaster, and just go into fact after fact and link after link - they don't care.
Death continue at a steady rate, the major groups within Iraq can't ratify a constitution, and the car bombs and mortar shells just keep coming. The death toll goes up, with little progress made at restoring infrastructure. But these guys will start a thread here from some Marine on the ground who says 'the surge worked', and 'we're turning the tide'.
No. You're not.
They'll just discredit the source, if it's marginally less than wingnutty. They still think Global Warming is a myth.
You say, ok - well the International Panel on Climate Change - it is conducted by the UN and FORCED, FORCED mind you - the Bush administration to accept that climate change was real (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/03/science/earth/03climate.html) and you say, ok there you have it - all respected world scientists agree with 90% confidence this is pretty much going along just as Gore said it would.
Nope. All liberal claptrap to the guys here. Just fancy book learnin by dem schoolboy elites.
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Didthatsentenceseemtoruntoget herorwasitjustme? :rofl
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Originally posted by Yeager
I fart in your general direction!
:aok
I'm wearing 80 cubics on my back. (SCUBA) Fart away, makes no difference.
:cool:
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Trax,
The VSE is already slow, and full of questionable details. First of all the program's been underfunded since it was announced... Then, there's problems with what's actualy been done.
The Ares oscillation issue you might've heard isn't as bad as the media might make it sound, but it is one more setback that the program's been going through.
e.g. Why a completely new rocket for Orion when TitanV is enough for Bigelow?
There's such doubts about the whole Constellation program that a group of experts recently got together at Stanford to come up with a new plan to suggest to the next pres. You can look that up for details, my browser wiped the reply I'd whipped up and I'm not patient enough to redo all that.
Obama says he wants to "slow" VSE funding by five years for school and social services funding (btw how has that worked out so far - throwing cash at the edu. system?). He said so around Xmas and again around the Iowa caucus. He's got a space plan speech but I honestly don't have the patience to read it.. It's a politician's speech and I feel like I'm in front of the TV getting my brain cells put to sleep :p E.g. I skimmed it and it doesn't seem forthcoming and transparent enough to just say "No AresV support". AresV isn't even mentionned in there.
With the already existing problems, this would very likely mean no NASA human spaceflight after the Shuttle retires, for a few years.
It would also very likely delay the Moon trips at least as much... That's the direct effects, other effects like what happens to all the experienced people who don't even get to pass on everything they've learned because of that five year gap... All this to grab a fraction of the 1% budget.
The tradeoff between a tiny fraction of a fraction of the whole budget (diverted in a way that's been known not to work), vs a gaping hole in the VSE or whatever replaces it (and NASA to no small extent) isn't worth it.
Nothing beyond LEO for how much longer? A decade or two, or three? For less than 1% of the budget? WTF is he smoking?
Apparently McCain is the best space supporter of the candidates left. Might be a tiny consolation prize for everything else he looks set to screw up.
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soo.. arlo and moray do not agree with me that the current educational system is the main culprit in the dumbing of America?
I am not surprised. That would mean not being a good democrat.. hurting the poor saintly teachers and their union and not allowing poor and illegal children any "opportunity"..
It would mean vouchers. it would mean that you stop blaming the parents and for what kids learn in school and blame the people who are supposed to be teaching them.. who are the highest paid part time workers as a group...who have the kids for most of their productive hours of the day.
moray says that I am unable to reason.. to collect data and come to a reasoned opinion.. what he means is that we both look at data and he uses the data that he likes to form his opinion and that I do the same.. both of us use sources that are much more informed and educated on the subject than either of us and are roughly equal but...
lazs
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dos.....please, keep it simple and straight to the point. Too many peeps come here to impress themselves with their witty ability to put a bunch of fancy sounding words together and when they are done structuring a truly complex and impressive sentence, it makes absolutely no sense.
Are you saying that the Bush war on islamic fanaticism resulting from the mass murder of nearly 3000 american civilians on Spetember 11, 2001 has had its share of failures and further, that this equates to a generalized failure of the entire foreign policy of the Bush administartion?
Or, are you saying something else?
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Originally posted by lazs2
soo.. arlo and moray do not agree with me that the current educational system is the main culprit in the dumbing of America?
I am not surprised. That would mean not being a good democrat.. hurting the poor saintly teachers and their union and not allowing poor and illegal children any "opportunity"..
It would mean vouchers. it would mean that you stop blaming the parents and for what kids learn in school and blame the people who are supposed to be teaching them.. who are the highest paid part time workers as a group...who have the kids for most of their productive hours of the day.
moray says that I am unable to reason.. to collect data and come to a reasoned opinion.. what he means is that we both look at data and he uses the data that he likes to form his opinion and that I do the same.. both of us use sources that are much more informed and educated on the subject than either of us and are roughly equal but...
lazs
Actually, no I don't agree with you.... but only to a point. I feel that education has become another "freedom" to many people, and that it is something which you can have or can choose not to have.... and their opinion is still valid in either case.
It is an idealism problem, not a systemic problem. Of course there are bad teachers out there....I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that there are WAY more bad students... and that is from our "instant gratification" based culture, that puts no weight on long term variables.
I'll tell you what Lazs.... Come and teach some of my biology lectures, tell me how good the kids are. Classes are simply looked on as a requirement, not a mode with which to better oneself. All 85% of them want to know is..."is that going to be on the test?". I'm pretty sure you will suddenly realize that what I am saying is very true.
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moray.. not sure we are so far off of agreement in this. I will only say that the little schoolhouse on the prairie did a better job of teaching than todays learning factories.
The fact remains that every year..the kids learn less. There can be no doubt that the reason is that they are simply taught less.
Every year we spend more and we give more control to the liberal school boards and department of education and let them try new methods and every year.. the kids learn less.
Kids who don't know when WWII happened and who was on what side. Kids who can't read.
If we didn't know those things we did not advance... if we did not advance enough times we were thrown out so as to not ruin it for the other kids. If we misbehaved the teachers hit us.
Kids are not even curious about how things work anymore.
I did just an hour ago listen to Mssss jacoby on NPR and I have never heard so much jibberish.. backpeddling and excuse making. blame blame blame..
But.. always the defence of socialistic school systems.
vouchers are the only way out of this mess... You want to see parents get involved? let em vote with their vocher money and the problem will go away.
lazs
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and.. the so called anti science and anti intellectual... it is not that at all.. if there is doubt then the scientists have no one but themselves to blame... their constant "the sky is falling" and the fact that they have cried wolf so many times and their penchant for politicizing science..
They are the ones who have made people doubt their ability and their honesty and.... morality.
jacoby herself was saying how that there were only so many hours in a day.. not to be wasted on utube and whatever.. but.. nothing was said of the hours that teachers waste with PC crap instead of what was the civil war.
She went livid when it was suggested that things like affirmative action were contributing to the problem. She spent the entire time blaming everything but the educational system.. except maybe to say that it needed even more funding and.. no doubt.. more time off for teachers and more "involvement" by parents.
In the days when kids left school being able to read... we had very little "involvement" by parents.. the teachers did their job.. not as well as catholic school (you could see the drift in quality even then) but... far better than they do now.
lazs
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Laz,
Chicago has started thinking like you and are trying this....
Chicago looks to 'turnarounds' to lift failing schools
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0215/p01s03-usgn.html?page=1
In essence they are blaming the teachers and principals. Removing them with the allowance to reapply. Then cleaning the school up and hiring teachers and principals who will teach.
The article is 3 pages but worth the read.
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Here is a little more regarding REQUIRED schooling ....
http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=56894
I have NO PROBLEM with people choosing a LIFE style.
But IMHO the STATE does NOT have the right to FORCE LIFE style teaching on children against the parents will.
IMHO this sort of thing is GOING TOO FAR and usurping parental rights.
The REQUIRING of teaching global warming, as the JURY (scientific community) is still arguing it's validity, is within the same order of such things.
There MUST be a balance between freedom, rights, and liberty vs what gets taught to our children.
AND IMHO that balance is way off right now.
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I think that a lot of the distrust of science stated in the last century when the scientists started to get so political and so much of their income was tied to grants.
The first big one was eugenics.. this caused a distrust of science.. lots of bogus health scares and blunders.. xrays for everything.. mercury fillings for your teeth.. new ice age.. PC and pycobabble.. the scientists and intellectuals are doing it to themselves with their greed and arrogance.
The man made global warming scam will drive them even farther from the pedestal they so much want to be on.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I think that a lot of the distrust of science stated in the last century when the scientists started to get so political and so much of their income was tied to grants.
Not to be confused with the supposedly "larger" group of "scientists" (and even "doctors") who got into politics because most (or maybe even all) of their income was tied to corporate profit/kickback? Remember ... cigarettes don't kill people ... lighting them and inhaling them for years does.
One-sided arguments based on nothing much more than dislike for the other side do not a balanced approach make. But then ... you gotta stand for an extreme agenda of some kind or you'll fall for any moderate thing, I suppose. :)
We don't need no steenkin' psuedo-scientists feedin' us fake information and skeerin' the wimminfolk and kids into commiehood! Save the planet and kill the grant-abusing traitors! :D
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Not one sided at all arlo.. thank you for proving my point that most scientists are potatos for the money..
It is difficult to trust them when they are so willing to potato out for whoever they think will pay em the most or what agenda they have on a personal level.
the distrust is well founded. and.. it is, as I said.. their own fault.
Yet, they refuse to accept blame and call it the dumbing of America.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Not one sided at all arlo.. thank you for proving my point that most scientists are potatos for the money..
It is difficult to trust them when they are so willing to potato out for whoever they think will pay em the most or what agenda they have on a personal level.
the distrust is well founded. and.. it is, as I said.. their own fault.
Yet, they refuse to accept blame and call it the dumbing of America.
lazs
Yet again you prove that you understand so very little about what you are talking about.
If you understood point one about this "grant system" you wouldn't even talk this way. Please Lazs, go read up and find out how it works...not how someone else TELLS you how to feel.
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Originally posted by lazs2
.. thank you for proving my point
1: I didn't.
2: So don't rely so much on me doing it when you couldn't.
:D
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Originally posted by lazs2
I think that a lot of the distrust of science stated in the last century when the scientists started to get so political and so much of their income was tied to grants.
The first big one was eugenics.. this caused a distrust of science.. lots of bogus health scares and blunders.. xrays for everything.. mercury fillings for your teeth.. new ice age.. PC and pycobabble.. the scientists and intellectuals are doing it to themselves with their greed and arrogance.
The man made global warming scam will drive them even farther from the pedestal they so much want to be on.
lazs
Wow.
Read the Wikipedia definition of anti-intellectualism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-intellectualism
Then re-read lazs2 here. Compare.
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More like anti-neurotic IMO.
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Van Gogh's paintings looked normal to him and cutting off his own ear seemed natural. Now if the majority of the people were "Van Goghs" ... well, guess that would be "normal." Alas, `ol VG looking at other people weird because he thought they were was perception versus reality.
"Anti-neuros" probably need to start with themselves foist.
Nice paintings though, eh? :D
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Just out of curiosity does anyone remember what Chairman Mao did with the intellectuals after he took power?
OOOPS edited for the following
Pol Pot what did he do with em?
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Arlo I used to grill anyone for any flaw in their reasoning. The result was too often broken parts with my fingerprints on em, which if I was to be really fair, I'd have to help repair. That's too meddlesome for me, and I have better things to do, like living my own life..
In retrospect it's much more efficient to iron out starting with the flat spots in the fabric than to just stomp on the wrinkles and point out that the fabric won't cooperate... Or say they should wear something else altogether.
I certainly have no taste for or interest in getting others to change into anything else than what they want to be. The only correction I'll insist on is one that'd set them on their own way more accurately. I'm a sucker for well oiled machinery.
Oh yeah, and like you said, very nice paintings. To me that's almost worth not interfering, ever.
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Laz,
I took a look at entities who provide grants for sea mammel research.
Most of them provide a max of $2000. One or two very large government foundations will provide larger sums based on thier congressional allotment or earmarks for the given year or will pay a reasearch group to work on specific projects they need carried out as contractors or consultants.
To get any of these grants Moray or the Sr. person he works for has to compete with hundreds of other Moray's for a limited amount of grant money every year. Essentialy he has to write a small book of piciune detail along with hoping his audience loves the sex lives of sand fleas as much as he loves researching them. Or that his research is unique enough to draw the attention of a well funded private foundation.
I read some sites on prepairing your presentation to compete for grants. I got the feeling that you need to have a certain amount of knowlege concerning what the government entity or foundation is interested during that funding cycle. No body gives away money for nothing.
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Originally posted by moot
Oh yeah, and like you said, very nice paintings. To me that's almost worth not interfering, ever.
Almost. There's times it reaches a point. We live in interesting times. Some of us pretend they just happened spontaneously. I'm caught up in counter-weight. ;)
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I know several professors who are department heads and who survive (or at least their projects and staff survive) on grants. It is as bustr says.. they have to discern what is wanted at the time.
One scientist put it well... "if you are looking for a grant on some form of marmot.. and you want to study their eating habits.. you are buried under a bunch of other papers.. If you say that you want to study how man made global warming is affecting the eating habits of some form of marmot.. You go right to the top of the pile."
And.. To say that scientists have not hurt their own cause with so many silly predictions of doom and gloom that never came true is simply revisionist.
Respect for science exists where it is warranted.. the problem is with the scientists themselves.. or at least a fairly large group of outspoken and in the spotlight ones.
the media seeking out the fringe ones and publishing their statements has not helped.. don't tell me that you moray, don't cringe when you see some outlandish thing in the news said by some scientist.
If they won't face their own flaws.. if they simply blame everyone and everything else... then it will just get worse.
lazs
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dosequis.. I have read the wiki article and don't see myself except for possibly agreeing that you can't teach down to the dumbest in the class.. that equality has no place in the classroom (or anywhere) except in equality of opportunity and... even that is limited by the people and their drive.
No.. I do not consider myself either anti science or anti intellectual.. I am anti arrogance and anti junk science and anti politicizing schools and science tho.
I am pro vouchers.
lazs
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we don't need no stinkin intelligence .. we have google
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who's google?
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Originally posted by Angus
who's google?
Wiki`s first cousin..on his mother`s side.
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Schools nor the teachers who populate them, are the culprit. It is our culture's failure to cope with the ever increasing flood of information and a growing need for instant gratification that technology is shoving down our throats.
A.D.D. is the rule, not the exception. She cites, and shoots down, an author who has a positive view of this, very real, situation.
I would like to think that we will be able to adapt, evolve, integrate these incredible technologies into our lives and use them to better ourselves, our culture, our society. But, I don't think that is the case...yet.
In my opinion, at the root of the solution, or counter measure if you will, is effective parenting. Now whether or not the parent is intelligent enough, has time enough, or is driven enough to make this happen, well...that is in flux.
Both my parents worked so they helped me fill my time away from home with productive, healthy and effective activities.
Aside from my regular school day and after-school sports I was also a part of an organization called Odyssey of the Mind (http://www.odysseyofthemind.com/learn_more.php). It is this kind of thing that makes kid's head tick.
Our children are not victims of a failed school system, pompous intellectual teachers or failed legislation, they are victims of lazy parents.
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Originally posted by Dadano
effective parenting.
Well said! Says it all.
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Originally posted by bustr
Laz,
I took a look at entities who provide grants for sea mammel research.
Most of them provide a max of $2000. One or two very large government foundations will provide larger sums based on thier congressional allotment or earmarks for the given year or will pay a reasearch group to work on specific projects they need carried out as contractors or consultants.
To get any of these grants Moray or the Sr. person he works for has to compete with hundreds of other Moray's for a limited amount of grant money every year. Essentialy he has to write a small book of piciune detail along with hoping his audience loves the sex lives of sand fleas as much as he loves researching them. Or that his research is unique enough to draw the attention of a well funded private foundation.
I read some sites on prepairing your presentation to compete for grants. I got the feeling that you need to have a certain amount of knowlege concerning what the government entity or foundation is interested during that funding cycle. No body gives away money for nothing.
Sir you're the closest to understanding and you're only about halfway there. Thank you. You have no idea how much of a pain in the arse the grant system really is.... and I work for a major government institute, which is supposed to make it easier...LOL.
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dadano... maybe you can use some of that much touted logic and scientific reason you claim and look at the facts.
In my day parents rarely helped kids with school work.. in fact... it was discouraged by the teachers.
The kids in my day could all read by the time they were 9 or ten and they all knew key events in history and the latest in science and studied art and civilization..
We were at what is now college level by the 8th grade. so who is it again who has failed?
If the schools and the saints (teachers) fail to even turn out kids that can read or know when WWII was.. if 50% of college students can't find iraq on a map..
Tell me again how that is the parents fault?
Now.. if you want to say that home school kids are dumber.. then that would make sense.. but.. as we all know.. the parents of home school kids are doing a better job than the teachers at our WORTHLESS public schools.
the more money we give public schools the worse they do.. the longer we are stuck with the public school system the dumber America gets.
lazs
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Originally posted by Dadano
A.D.D. is the rule, not the exception. .
ADD, an invented diagnosis created by people in a politically correct world to excuse the poor behavior of a child.
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Originally posted by lazs2
dadano... maybe you can use some of that much touted logic and scientific reason you claim and look at the facts.
In my day parents rarely helped kids with school work.. in fact... it was discouraged by the teachers.
The kids in my day could all read by the time they were 9 or ten and they all knew key events in history and the latest in science and studied art and civilization..
We were at what is now college level by the 8th grade. so who is it again who has failed?
If the schools and the saints (teachers) fail to even turn out kids that can read or know when WWII was.. if 50% of college students can't find iraq on a map..
Tell me again how that is the parents fault?
Now.. if you want to say that home school kids are dumber.. then that would make sense.. but.. as we all know.. the parents of home school kids are doing a better job than the teachers at our WORTHLESS public schools.
the more money we give public schools the worse they do.. the longer we are stuck with the public school system the dumber America gets.
lazs
First and foremost, this isn't your day. It is a new age. Adapt or die, is how I like to think of it.
If the child cannot read by age 9 I would cite retardation over mis allocated public funds.
I never said parents should be teaching the core curriculum, don't put words in my mouth. In fact, I think the school day is, if anything, a extremely important social environment.
For the most part, my experience in public schools was a good one. Great teachers, advanced independent classes for those who excelled, and chocolate milk on Wednesdays.
I guess my time in the public school system was the exception. From Detroit to Seattle, I don't feel I was sold short.
You sound like such a victim.
Harden the **** up. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y)
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
ADD, an invented diagnosis created by people in a politically correct world to excuse the poor behavior of a child.
I agree. Although, I think short attention spans are more the norm now than in the past, as a product of the speed at which we live.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Wiki`s first cousin..on his mother`s side.
Ahh, knew I heard the name before :D
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dano... LOL... you went to school at starbucks land and say that public school is not the problem?
so riddle me this... if you think ADD is the problem then.. what caused it? is it something in the air cause.. no kids had it when I went to school and.. If they did.. they sure never got treated.
Of course you have to live in todays world but.. if you change things drastically in a few decades and things get markedly worse... do you then blame the worsening of the situation on.. on what? evolution? an new mental disease that swept the nation overnite? do you blame it on "the times"?
Or.. do you pretend that the overall teaching level and education is as good or better than it was before all the changes? those are your choices and they are both anti intellectual in their own right.. they fly in the face of reason.
"harden up"?? LOL.. I got mine already.. I don't care what happens to you mush heads... I have a grand daughter and I am paying to send her to a catholic school where she is outperforming the idiots in public school by two grade levels.. they even teach in english at her school.
The worst thing about intellectual eliteism is the fact that it refuses to take any responsibility for it's mistakes or.. to learn from them.. It is all about blame.. or.. more accurately.. shifting the blame.
We did not evolve or.. devolve in a few short decades. The air did not suddenly become filled with the ADD virus.. there is less lead in our food and paint and toys than ever. the teachers and schools are doing a crap job.
the results speak for themselves.. they have had it their own way all this time and things are only getting worse. high school kids are functionally illiterate. Half the college students can't find iraq on a map or know when the American civil war was.
Me and my generation read a book a month at least.. yours reads one a year at best.. So don't feel sorry for me or tell me to "harden up" cause I don't give a crap what happens to your stupid butt.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
dano... LOL... you went to school at starbucks land and say that public school is not the problem?
Me and my generation read a book a month at least.. yours reads one a year at best.. So don't feel sorry for me or tell me to "harden up" cause I don't give a crap what happens to your stupid butt.
lazs
Amazing, look at who suddenly feels himself elite. A book a month? That's laughable grandpa. Reader's Digest, large print, on the can doesn't count.
I find it funny, you are trying to make yourself sound exactly like what you say you despise... elitist. Elevating yourself above everyone else on account that you think you read more..... Talk about self centered isolationism.
Also, you might want to try to read books without opinions, and those without pictures every now and again. For such a well read individual, you certainly don't portray yourself as such.
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not at all.. I am not saying I am superior in the least. I am pointing out that the education systems of different decades brought different results..
far from acting elite... I have said over and over that people have not changed.. the schools have. I don't think that I have to point out the irony of someone like you calling me an elitist to people on this board.. lots of coffee got spit on monitors all over the world over your last post I am sure.
lazs
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I spent my first 12 years in Detroit. Ever been to Detroit? It's a chithole with chithole public schools. Didn't stop me from learning. Didn't stop my parents from keeping my head working outside of school.
The point of my initial post was; it isn't the schools and the teachers, it is the failure to cope with the change that is taking place. From an analog age to a digital one.
Our youth is swimming in a constant barrage of information, and having a hard time keeping their head above water. Everyone is becoming ADD by default. It's being built into us. We could just as well call it ubermultitaskiosus. It might not be a bad thing.
I think, now more than ever, it is the falling on the parents shoulders to help their youth through it. Schools, being the large social institution in this situation, are slow to react and adapt. Whereas, the small family can, if it has the will, address the youth's immediate mental and emotional needs.
This doesn't mean helping them study every night, although there isn't a damn thing wrong with that, but the parents taking control of the youth's after school options. Or even, dare I say, moving to somewhere with decent schools.
I'm gonna go order my daily mochochoco skim milk halfnhalf chi tea latte and indulge in some Dostoevsky.
-Seacrest Out
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Originally posted by lazs2
not at all.. I am not saying I am superior in the least. I am pointing out that the education systems of different decades brought different results..
far from acting elite... I have said over and over that people have not changed.. the schools have. I don't think that I have to point out the irony of someone like you calling me an elitist to people on this board.. lots of coffee got spit on monitors all over the world over your last post I am sure.
lazs
Have you figured it out yet? Any tone that has connotations of thought out personal opinion gets labeled as "elitist". It is wrong to think you, as an individual, are right.
Right is wrong. Wrong is wrong. You're only "right" if you have no strong personal opinion. Make sense?
This is the problem with people drawing lines, elitist/hillbilly, republican/democrat, night/day...
It's a great way to make no ground at all in a debate. Draw the lines, hold the lines, first one to quit loses.
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BTW, I'm glad to hear that your granddaughter is being put in a private school. This means that her parents, really do give a chit.
Although, it doesn't mean, I can make a sweeping generalizations about all public schools being total garbage.
I know you can agree with that.
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you are talking around the problem and making excuses.. it is not rocket science.. the teachers and the school system have the kids for almost all of their productive waking hours and they are getting dumber... not smarter.
My parents did not "help" me to learn.. they figured that was the schools and the teachers job and.. they were right and the schools and the teachers felt the same..
I am paying for my grand daughter to go to catholic school. It is worth it to me to keep her out of the public school cesspool. I don't help her.. I read with her and I take her to see things and excite her imagination.. I also let her help me build things and she rides in hot rods and learns about guns.
If she has a question about school or schoolwork.. I am able to answer her questions or... help her look it up on the internet.
I know every single parent or grandparent does the same.
The fault lies directly on the shoulders of the teachers and the schools.
Home schooling gets good results... catholic school gets good results.. public school gets crap results.
It is not productive to make excuses for a failed experiment.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Home schooling gets good results... catholic school gets good results.. public school gets crap results.
It is not productive to make excuses for a failed experiment.
lazs
That, sir, is a completely biased opinion.
You must seriously look into what you are talking about, as usual. Are you basing your opinion upon statistics, strict empirical data or a combination of the two? Per average student basis? Or just the higher IQ students?
Please feel free to show me how, statistically, homeschool or catholic schools have a higher educational rate.
Also, just so you know, any organism evolves with each successive generation, whether or not it is apparent or not. Human thinking, on the other hand, evolves or devolves exponentially within a generation. See "Emancipation Proclamation" "Women's Rights" "Racial Integration". Or on the other hand, see "Nazism" "Stalin" "Pol Pot".
Just as note... I was a product of public schools. I graduated in 10th grade. It was the students that held back any learning, though, I was in a very good school system at the time, which was known better than all of the catholic schools around it. Most of the kids just didn't care, or did only what they had to to get by.
Also, as a note, we need to get rid of this "summer off" policy. It is old and antiquated, as few americans have crops that need harvesting anymore. Our public school should be in session for the entire calendar year.
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Laz,
Moray and Dano need to recuse themselves from passing judgement on the public school systems and education of the average masses. It's clearly obvious to everyone in the audience that they are on the higher end of the IQ bell curve and each an exception to the norm. But, they are arguing with you using themselves as their average human example for a control model. That is the definition of intellectual elitism you keep refering to.
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Penguin school giving best results Lazs?
I must say this, for I think you are partially right. It boils down to the standard of dicipline. Kids that respect authority and STFU simply have more time to learn. And the Catholic schools have their support and firmness in that matter.
(BTW I am NOT a Catholic)
That said, there is always the quest for catching and forwarding the brightest minds of the crowd. This has failed and does so still.
And statistics?...well, the average knowledge of western world students (below...16?) seems to be falling....in terms of worlds history and other matters. If you need proof, browse this forum for a while :D
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Originally posted by bustr
Laz,
Moray and Dano need to recuse themselves from passing judgement on the public school systems and education of the average masses. It's clearly obvious to everyone in the audience that they are on the higher end of the IQ bell curve and each an exception to the norm. But, they are arguing with you using themselves as their average human example for a control model. That is the definition of intellectual elitism you keep refering to.
It's the culture stupid!
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Originally posted by bustr
Laz,
Moray and Dano need to recuse themselves from passing judgement on the public school systems and education of the average masses. It's clearly obvious to everyone in the audience that they are on the higher end of the IQ bell curve and each an exception to the norm. But, they are arguing with you using themselves as their average human example for a control model. That is the definition of intellectual elitism you keep refering to.
No, sir. I was simply alluding to the prospect that public school isn't that bad...or more to the point, it is what every student makes of it.
As well, as long as you're humpin laz on the legs, you should note that he first pointed out his schooling was different and used himself as an example. You are entitled to your opinion, yet, you might want to understand what someone is saying to you before you spout it.
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Originally posted by Dadano
It's the culture stupid!
It is exactly the culture Dano.
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My 2c. Any great recipe will go to hell if you pee in it, no matter if it's at the very start, or near the end when it's cooling off on the window.
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Catholic upbringing :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vku_fKAioUw
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Oh I see... it is the fault of the culture and the parents if the kids don't learn anything in school?
the parents should teach the kids things like reading and math and science and then the teachers will have time in their short 8 hours of time a day with the students to teach em the really important things in life like how to use a condom.
If you teach in spanish and english you will learn half as much material.. if you never mention WWII no kids will have learned when or why it was. If you pay part time workers a full time wage and educate a bunch of non citizens it will get more and more expensive.
I do agree with moray tho that it is time to go full time.. it is not effective to use facilities part time or to pay full time wages for part time work.
lazs
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and results...
http://school.familyeducation.com/home-schooling/educational-testing/41081.html
"Here is an excerpt from a recent study of homeschoolers: "According to a report published by the Educational Resources Information Center (ERIC) and funded by the Office of Educational Research and Improvement, U.S. Department of Education, homeschool student achievement test scores were exceptionally high. The median scores for every subtest at every grade were well above those of public and Catholic/private-school students. On average, homeschool students in grades one to four performed one grade level above their age-level public/private school peers on achievement tests. Students who had been homeschooled their entire academic life had higher scholastic achievement test scores than students who had also attended other educational programs."
As for catholic schools....
http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2006461
"his study compares mean 2003 National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) reading and mathematics scores of public and private schools in 4th and 8th grades, statistically controlling for individual student characteristics (such as gender, race/ethnicity, disability status, identification as an English language learner) and school characteristics (such as school size, location, and the composition of the student body). In grades 4 and 8, using unadjusted mean scores, students in private schools scored significantly higher than students in public schools for both reading and mathematics.
They go on to say that if you turn catholic schools into cesspools the results get a lot worse tho. "adjusted" is the term. the absolute results were that the catholic schools far outperformed the public ones but.. the results were "adjusted" to reflect.. get this.. ethnicity and income and class size.
After adjustment it can be seen that what we seen isn't really what we are seeing.
Sorta like co2 science...
In the meantime.. I will continue to send my grand daughter to catholic school where... before 'adjustments" she will continue to outperform her public school cesspool peers by a grade of two.
I pick both her and another girl up at their schools once in a while.. the public school is a zoo on fire. the catholic school is polite and orderly.
My anti intellectual brain tells me more can be learned by children without the chaos.
lazs
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Excuses are all we're gonna hear from the overeducated but underintelligent hand wringing liberals. We want results in education we're going to have to take big government out of it.
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Guys it's no single thing that's caused today's situation. There might be one or a few factors more important than all the rest, but IMO nothing is negligible.
About the schools themselves, the curriculums I saw in public High Schools are just too weak, too shallow, nowhere near thorough enough. Back in France it was like we could break ceramic bricks in two with our heads, compared to the limp little problems given during exams in the US HSs. When I got to HS in Tempe AZ, I had trouble finding anything I hadn't already learned 2 years or more previous to then, back in France; except stuff like US Govt. obviously. This, even in 'honors' classes.
I'd show up to the 'adv. pre calc' or whatever it was called, and the teacher would just roll his eyes when I'd ask stuff like 'when you say Mean, do you mean arithmetic, geometric or harmonic Mean?'... The kids had more success memorizing the laws of logarithm operations with funny metaphorical parabols that really didn't represent the actual mechanics of the math, than actualy "seeing" the nuts and bolts that made the math work as it did.
When I looked at their graphs it was like kindergarten kids' crayon drawings.. It sure boiled things down to the basic principles, but it reeked of complacency with respect to what it all really meant. They weren't under or above average kids, they were the regular students in the middle of the bell curve.
The only kids that gave a crap were nerds.
And the preparations for the standardized tests and that test which gave the school its "rating".. Don't get me started on that.. It wasn't about learning anymore, it was about padding score. The teachers were more strict about that stupid test than the tests they gave themselves!
"Train like you fight, fight like you train." - What good is a method where you practice with training wheels 95% of the time?
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Breaking bricks.....in France????
:D