Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: moot on February 19, 2008, 03:45:47 AM
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It used to be that they would instantaneously kill the engine of any fighter, with one hit. Now, planes fly around for a while before the engine dies.
Has it been changed so that a 30mm round can damage only the oil, in addition to the engine itself, or is it just lag, or something else?
Thanks.
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Funny you bring this to the forum, I've shot the crap out a B25H with 30mm yesterday and its looked like it had no effect until an engine caught fire....
I think it really depends on the plane type, a single engined light fighter will go boom, a Ju88 wil loose the engine, and an american bomber will just fly away :P
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No.. That's the thing. It used to be that a 30mm hit on a fighter would either:
Disable it: v or h-stab(s), whole tail, wing, or at least wingtip - except a few like the 38 or 110 who sometimes would just lose a part that's isolated, like either of the v-stabs.
Kill the pilot: "Boom!"
Or kill the engine, instantly.
Now I've been getting planes that fly off like they only broke an oil line; everything from spits to P51s to Yaks....
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Its been like this for a while. About 80% of the time the engine cuts out right when hit. Other times its just an oil hit.
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Originally posted by moot
Now I've been getting planes that fly off like they only broke an oil line; everything from spits to P51s to Yaks....
that, or they just fly through the taters :D
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Originally posted by moot
It used to be that they would instantaneously kill the engine of any fighter, with one hit. Now, planes fly around for a while before the engine dies.
Has it been changed so that a 30mm round can damage only the oil, in addition to the engine itself, or is it just lag, or something else?
Thanks.
Do changes happen in the game itself even if we don't get a patch? Or is it HTC changing arena settings itself?
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Originally posted by hunter128
that, or they just fly through the taters :D
:lol
:mad:
Sketch, I guess I missed the memo...
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Bwa ha ha ha! Moot, I just now noticed your whole avitar.....
Priceless, thats All I can say...
Funny stuff, I know because I have a cubeicle at work and have to always watch who is watching.
:rofl
What, I don't look at bad stuff.....
:noid
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Glad someone can relate :D
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I noticed the same thing with 30mm hits lately too.
Wing-rooted a spit 14... it flew on with no damage.
Same thing happened the other day.. Got at least two 30mm hits on a figher... called it out as being 'down' and looked back to see it still flying.
:noid
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I haven't noticed any change. Of course, I rarely hit someones engine. I'm usually behind them :)
But as an example, I haven't been flying my trusty A8 much the past two camps so I decided to take it for a couple of flights last night. I took the wing off a 110 with one hit on a snapshot and later I totally exploded all 3 B-24's in a formation (no fires, no smoke, just poof... poof... poof). Still seems pretty deadly to me.
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(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/AK_Comrade/bomberdown4.jpg)
Took off a rudder (not the whole stabilizer, just one rudder)
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moot same happend with that radar seeking 30mm in our 152 duels, 2 direct 30mms to engine and only caused an oil hit
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Yep. I hadn't had a tater hit me with that effect myself before that :)
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Originally posted by Sketch
Do changes happen in the game itself even if we don't get a patch? Or is it HTC changing arena settings itself?
i was kind of wondering this myself, as in a fight...spit9 v hurri2c..me in the spit, i fell into his fight and got slow.....but when the spit stalled finally, it kind of "mapleleafed" from 14k down to 3k......and this is the very first time i couldn't recover a stall in so long(and he had no hits on me at that point)
different night, in a me110g2, forget what i was fighting, same kind of stall, only i wasn't that slow..........later that same night i was in a pony fighting a 10g2, and watched him stall, and mapleleaf into the ground from about 5 or 6k.......makes me wonder if there are running changes....i know i was outclassed in the spit v hurri..by the plane and the pilot........i can't remember what or who i was fighting in the 110, or the pony, but i do feel those particular stalls shouldn't have happened.....and yes, i do know how to recover stalls, and or spins(this wasn't a spin though)
<>
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Those stalls have been around for as long as i can remember. They changed a bit with the airflow update a few versions back, but that was announced.
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Originally posted by Larry
Its been like this for a while. About 80% of the time the engine cuts out right when hit. Other times its just an oil hit.
I can safely say it's been the opposite for me. 80% oil leaks and 20% engine stops.
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30mm hit from a G-14 on a Spit16 lastnight.... Radiator only.
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30mm hit from a 262 in a 190 cockpit yesterday and nothing :rolleyes:
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Ive actually had 30mm hits do nothing... but thats probably due to lag.
What I'd really like to put some time into researching is how accurate the ballistics are modeled.
I like IL2's 30mm much better than AH's. ;)
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I was in a 152 in the MA 2 days ago chasing some B17s that were RTB after drop. I set one on fire, but I'm SURE it was only with the 20mms. I lit that SOB up like CHRISTMAS and got a measely amount of damage! I'm SURE I got a few 30mm in there too!
Anyways, I come in on the last plane (there were only 2) and make a pass, and another, and on my final pass I see I've got 33x 30mm left so I just saddle up and UNLOAD all but 6 rounds (firing all my 20mm at the same time!) and see millions of hits, not the LEAST of which was between 5 and 10x 30mm fireball hitsprites on the tail gunner/rudder/elevator position.
The plane didn't take any damage. I had given it a gas leak from a previous attack. That's it.
Hell I didn't even disable the turret! It shot out one of my 20mms and I bugged out, low on ammo.
He landed, I never got an assist or a kill.
SOMETHING is wrong with damage from 30mm right now. What, I don't know. I just know it's not working.
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Originally posted by moot
No.. That's the thing. It used to be that a 30mm hit on a fighter would either:
Disable it: v or h-stab(s), whole tail, wing, or at least wingtip - except a few like the 38 or 110 who sometimes would just lose a part that's isolated, like either of the v-stabs.
Kill the pilot: "Boom!"
Or kill the engine, instantly.
Now I've been getting planes that fly off like they only broke an oil line; everything from spits to P51s to Yaks....
Your correct, I have a few videos of hitting La7's in the engine with a single round or a burst of 30mm and only engine is knocked out (i.e oil) However, Today i experienced something extremely weird, at 1000 out I hit an La7 with 109k and set it on fire, now im guessing the lobbing of the shell I actually got a hit with 3 round burst, but suprising to me, not only fuel was on fire but the engine was out also. Not sure how that damage modeling goes since Engine would be in front and Fuel in the rear of the La7?
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That's kind of like getting too close to a target when shooting and blowing your own tail off, and kind of like taking a HO and losing your rudder.
I think there's a lot of screwiness with the way damage is targetted.
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Why shouldn't you hit a vertical or rudder in a HO? Unless you are 100% straight on (a rarity) chances are more of your vertical or rudder will be exposed. A hit that passes by the front of the fuselage might just hit the vertical or rudder, especially when more is exposed.
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In a HO orientation, it is 90x more likely you'll hit the engine, cowling, windscree, pilot, pilot armor, than it is you'd hit a slim strip of pixels acting as the horizontal stabilizer.
On top of that, the round passing THROUGH the stabilizer and destroying the rudder is extremely odd.
The rudder being shot off in a HO is akin to losing your hub gun from a perfect dead 6 attack. It's on the complete opposite side of the craft from where the rounds are hitting, and with far too much stuff in between for the rounds to get that far.
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I took down a flight of Lanc's today with a 109K. I got all 3 only because the pilot wouldn't bail out or switch once I shot off the rear fuselage of the lead bomber. Anyway... I started by making high slashing attacks from 90 degrees, and put lots and lots of 30mm into the bombers, but since I missed the engines, there was not significant damage. I finally pulled up under the belly to deliver the coup de grace, and that still required a bunch more 30mm.
Another thing I see is what looks like something falling off a fighter after a 30mm hit, but then the aircraft continues to fly and fight like normal.:rolleyes:
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I think it is possibly a packet loss sort of problem.
I just flew in the DA furball lake for a few hours and got nothing but kills with 30mm hits... can't remember a single instance where 1 30mm wasn't a kill. It just doesn't match the statistics I've sometimes gotten, as described in the OP and other players' comments.
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I hafta confirm something amiss....
Hit a Ki-67 with no fewer than 7 37mm Yak-9T rounds, and got smoke from one engine. I was only firing the big gun..(have all cannons slaved to thumb trigger) and counted 7 hits to wing and starboard engine. Had to pull off and evade defensive fire... came back in on slashing attack with mg only..(4 rounds left of taters) on the port side... left wing comes off from a two second burst of MG.... Two other planes witnessed it.
Not the first time... just the most illustrative, out of my recent experience.
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really the only problems ive had lately with the mk108 was against bombers. Ive plugged away ay a b-26 with a 262 and gave him nothing bit a tiny oil leak. Fortunately though, in my trusty Bf-109 fighters still lose an entire emponage to a single round.
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No doubt that the conspiracy against the Luftwaffe birds in the game at work as usual :)
Just wish that it worked that way when the tators hit my 38G. It always seems to fall apart when I get hit.
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No one said anything about luftwaffe Guppy. There's no conspiracy, it's a real trend that sometimes happen, and given that it's only sometimes, I think it's a net issue. I mean.. Look at the screenshot from Motherland's film. How does that happen?
What's still odd, if we assume it's not a net problem, is planes taking less than immediate engine damage 30 times in a row, then 30 times in a row immediately losing the engine like they used to. That's a really odd statistical distribution.
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I flew a 163 last night (first time with the 30mm's for a while) and took down 3 AR234's firing 3-4 round bursts. Of course I missed a few times as he was manouvering but the actual hits tore him apart. I will add that on my first pass I hit the engine on one of the 234's and smoked it but I killed another on the same pass.
Again, I'm not seeing any issue with the 30mm.
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I rope-a-doped a 190A-5 in the 109K last night, shot his engine from 100 yards out head-on with the MK 108 (not firing mg's), and he dove down to his base with a smoking engine and landed.
Moot, your explanation is interesting, but I don't understand how the net would cause a confirmed hit by a 30mm shell to be less powerful. Packet loss would make more sense if I were firing a gun with a high rate of fire, because then we can say that only some of the hits were communicated to the server and back.
With the exception of shooting the wheel off a stuka or other peripheral parts, 1 30mm hit should kill a fighter, whether the hit is to the fuselage, engine or tail assembly. It's like shooting a bird with an elephant gun.
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Originally posted by Anaxogoras
Moot, your explanation is interesting, but I don't understand how the net would cause a confirmed hit by a 30mm shell to be less powerful.
It doesn't, and I'd like to know what the missing or incorrect piece of the puzzle is.
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Okay Moot... here is a question for you (with no a-hole comments to you from me like before in the pony post) :D
I have been trying out the K4 as of late and like it a lot. Now, it has the 30mm Mk 108 cannon. The Me262 has this as well... now here is my issue. I fly around off-line and shoot at the drones and struggle to hit anything no matter what I set my gun at. In the 262 I sit there at 600-800 out popping off guys left and right. Is it just different from the firing position being in the spinner compared to the side/nose of the 262's. I settle up on them and have to get damn near right on them at like 200 before I hit them... I also struggle as well with the MG's in the K4... maybe I just not use to the German Iron!
BTW: Which 30mm is in the 163 in the game? Is it the Mk108 as well...
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It sounds like you aren't used to them.. The differences between the two that I can think of:
+ The 262 has 4 times as many bullets flying forward as the 109. 30mm shots with just one gun (sometimes even with the 262's quad-30mm) can be pretty flaky: with a small enough target (either small profile or very fast relative motion) your rounds may just fly right around the target due to ROF and dispersion, even if you are pointing the nose and pulling the trigger at the right place and time!
+ The 262 flies a lot faster which makes the trajectory flatter: Bullets don't have as much time to drop.
+ The position of the guns in the 109 and 262 nose shouldn't make much difference at all.. There should be more difference from..
+ Convergence setting, it adjusts the vertical aim of the guns as well as the latteral angle. I don't have any rule of thumb for that - personaly I've had them at 350 in the 262 and probably 300-350 in the 109s. The speed of the 262 is enough that it can be considered separately from the 109, in terms of aiming.
+ And then there's just the pilot's perspective.. A friend of mine keeps saying "I can't shoot in the spits", even though he's about a good shot as I am in any other circumstances.
And yeah, all 30mm we have are the same MK108. Light and short barreled gun, slow rate of fire.. The only other german 30mm we might get is the MK103, which is slower still, but has a longer barrel and a much bigger cartridge.. The closest analog we have is the Il2's 23mm. The MK103 would fire slower but have at least as good a trajectory, and would be even more lethal than our MK108 round. Very potent stuff.
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I no longer have the readme's in my HTC folder for the last few patches and updates, but wasn't there a change to weapons in one of the patches in the last year? I'm fairly certain they changed the GV modelling with regards to weapons and penetration, but were any of the weapons on planes also adjusted?
I think a lot of what happens that seems odd is only perception, however I've had nights where I could kill anything with a single 30mm hit, and others where I've hit the same plane 5 or 6 times, sometimes close enough to kill myself with the blast, without downing the other plane.
Lag could only effect when the other guys takes the damage, not how much of it he takes, so I wonder if there is actually some component that's been changed, or if it really is just the luck of where the round hits that results in no damage, or just an oil leak instead of a catastrophic result.
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Originally posted by Anaxogoras
I rope-a-doped a 190A-5 in the 109K last night, shot his engine from 100 yards out head-on with the MK 108 (not firing mg's), and he dove down to his base with a smoking engine and landed.
Moot, your explanation is interesting, but I don't understand how the net would cause a confirmed hit by a 30mm shell to be less powerful. Packet loss would make more sense if I were firing a gun with a high rate of fire, because then we can say that only some of the hits were communicated to the server and back.
With the exception of shooting the wheel off a stuka or other peripheral parts, 1 30mm hit should kill a fighter, whether the hit is to the fuselage, engine or tail assembly. It's like shooting a bird with an elephant gun.
that'd depend.....are they explosive rounds? or are they just really big bullets? if not explosive, they coudl in theory simply travel through the aircraft and hit nothing vital/......as for the engine hits...........don't forget thagt there's most likeley a big v-12 up there........it could possibly take the brunt of a hit from a 30mm round.......even if it does kill the engine it might protect the pilot and the rest oif the plane
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When the Grosse Shlag scenario was starting we got multiple reports of ineffective 30mm fire. I personally have couple of video clips where I got 2 hits into no. 1. engine of B-17 from HO position. I watched the clip at slow motion and I was firing the cannon only.
No damage at all.. What do you think that kind of results do to game experience?
But in offline the cannon seems to be more effective.
So basically I think the problem is somewhere in the net code which tells opponent plane how much damage he has received. A single note of 30mm hit may be lost along the way but 30 hits of 20mm is much harder to lose--> at least some damage will get through via internet.
I think this issue should be looked into. Of course the whole damage modelling needs overhauling IMO because its plain ancient... you´re .0001 point short of damage losing a wing and still you can pull G´s like it was a brand new thing. :aok
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A couple of days ago I was in a town defending as it was stolen (I got there in time to see it taken). So we're trying to keep the town down and get troops in, so I, in my Osty, am defending. A large runway runs just over the town. On once occasion, I land no less than 7 hits on a 120mph B-25H that's flying right over me at 1000 feet.
*7* hits... I hit his nose/belly 3-4 times and his inboard left wing 2x (any one of which should have taken him apart) and my 7th only set him on fire.
A lancaster coming in at higher alts and level bombing from about 3k or so took 5+ hits, most in the same wing. Nothing came off until the last hit, when he "only" lost a wingtip.
Something's seriously up with heavy cannon rounds lately.
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I noticed my 30MM hits to the engine aren't super killers either... very frustrating... however I do think in several cases its the engine absorbing the damage. As everytime I hit anywhere else its almost always vital.
EX:
http://www.mediafire.com/?y1aztx23gn1
As opposed to:
http://www.mediafire.com/?y1btfseie1x
Or:
http://www.mediafire.com/?m9jm9ydb4xi
But on the rare occasion that's I've tangled with bombers I noticed my 30MM's don't hurt them all that much. It may be I'm just way out of practice since DGS, especially against B-17's (Very Rugged) or Lancs (Armored). Since there is alot to hit that isn't exactly vital. The size of the bombers may well be protecting them from people just trying to hit the bomber not necessarily the wing root, or the engine.
I've also noticed sometimes in an osty hitting good head-on shots against fighters and dealing little-no damage. Extremely frustrating to nail a fighter in the nose and then have him knock out your turret. (Stupid big engine sucking up all the shrapnel.)
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One hit killing the engine isn't new, it's always been that way. It hadn't always been so that engines keep running for a while after a tater hits.. not seldom for almost as long as a regular oil leak. Anywhere else and it's a vital part that falls off, or in a few cases nothing happens.
I agree, bombers IMO are big enough. They're large enough that you can land a tater almost anywhere and no break something off. The detonation will just bend the skin into a big crater, or something functionaly benign like that. Two taters almost anywhere in the same spot should break something vital. That shot Motherland shows is not one of those cases, though...
I dunno if ostie hits to the engine of a fighter should be lethal everytime.. I've gotten a kill on the pilot from it, just about everytime.