Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: XAKL on February 20, 2008, 01:58:47 PM
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AvA for years has been trying to find its own identity apart from MA. Well how about this? Lets make AvA as real as possible. None of this radar maps, one has to really visualize to identify target. Maybe putting a small window at the bottom showing a siloutte of a plane to suggest what the contact is. Minimizing engine use. I'm running 100% of my engine and there is no engine damage. Get rid of the ammo counter. Wait, I think it already exists, IL-2, but I want it in Aces High!!
MUGADAI of the MUNGADAI WARRIORS
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Just curious...
Do you realize that while realistic might be very near real, it's not necessarily near fun?
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Originally posted by XAKL
None of this radar maps, one has to really visualize to identify target.
Mugadies has a good idea. The rest would take game code changes but I'd be happy to fly in a radarless iconless setup.
Lets get it on.
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Most of what he said would mean coading from HTC. I dont think they are going to spead time on the AvA.
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Originally posted by republic
Mugadies has a good idea. The rest would take game code changes but I'd be happy to fly in a radarless iconless setup.
Lets get it on.
No radar? Or no GPS clipboard map? That ok for special events, and both can be done, but that's no good for the AvA IMHO. Finding a fight quickly is what's important in the AvA arena.
As for no icons over the planes, well, I hate chasing dots only to find out they're friendly, I sure don't want to wait until I'm d300 to tell the difference between a 109 or p51. The whines about this would be far, far worse then the either of those about night or the bombsight.
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why not just turn off enemy icon. ( that's something you can do yourself or maybe it could be disable so everyone would have the same playing field ) and keep friendly icon. i think that might add some more challenge to the AVA .
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Originally posted by Easyscor
No radar? Or no GPS clipboard map? That ok for special events, and both can be done, but that's no good for the AvA IMHO. Finding a fight quickly is what's important in the AvA arena.
As for no icons over the planes, well, I hate chasing dots only to find out they're friendly, I sure don't want to wait until I'm d300 to tell the difference between a 109 or p51. The whines about this would be far, far worse then the either of those about night or the bombsight.
With a very small map, as in the first week of the War, it would be fine. I think it would be awesome, it would really increase the amount of teamwork. You'd have real spotters and a real need to work together. It would be handy to see the effect of the different camo skins. I'm all for this, I think it would be great to try for a few days.
Something I noticed. The "no enemy radar" never really had an impact on the Axis during the war, though we did notice it had a significant impact on the allied war effort. It's interesting to see how one side relied heavily on radar while the other was relatively unaffected.
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Originally posted by WildeSau
why not just turn off enemy icon. ( that's something you can do yourself or maybe it could be disable so everyone would have the same playing field ) and keep friendly icon. i think that might add some more challenge to the AVA .
Thats what I do,with icons on(enemy)I tend to shoot at the neon sign..not the plane:D
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While the overwhelming majority of players HATE the "no icon" settings, I personally love them. It adds so much more to the experience NOT knowing what plane type, or HOW much E they have, and it is FAR easier to bounce and be bounced!
It took some adjusting at first, but I eventually got used to, and learned to love an iconless environment, and flew in it pretty much exclusively. Even a limited icon environment (D300) is more fun for me.
Unlike the main arena's, it is pretty easy to ID AC in a fixed planeset without the neon. The shape and colors start to imprint themselves and you can tell many AC apart from a surprising distance, even with ye olde 17 inch monitor.
Sadly, the demand for such an environment is too low for it ever to be implemented imo. The AvA has a small audience as is, and reducing the "gameyness" further would create shrinkage, and reduce the likelyhood of hooking new flyers to the over all concept.
A good compromise would be removal of the distance marker, and replace it with plane type, or just simply "enemy".
I have yet to do it, but I would like to try running some missions using NO icons, and NO onboard maps. AH has enough land marks that it is feasible to use printed maps for navigational purposes to complete a mission, rather than a GPS. That would be pretty tricky for both buffs and escorts, especially when the fighting starts.
Alas, we have what we have...
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the AvA comes about as close to getting consistently good fights as you will find in the whole of AHdom. most of the players are a cut above what you will find in the MAs.
by their own admission the current crop of allied players are all MA'rs here for a scratch and sniff. they bring to arena their country cousin ways with them. we will need to bathe and dress them and to teach them proper manners. it won't be a pretty or easy job but it must be done. in time they may well stack up and give as good as they get but only time will tell.
I am glad they are here and I hope they will stay.
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Originally posted by Easyscor
No radar? Or no GPS clipboard map? That ok for special events, and both can be done, but that's no good for the AvA IMHO. Finding a fight quickly is what's important in the AvA arena.
Was important you mean. The war is now important and the changes he is sudgesting are perfect for war. No radar other than bases flashing and no icons (including) range for the enemy aircraft would be perfect for a war scenario and hopefully it will eliminate any wasted resources that just fly around fighting.
Who knows, maybe the place wil be empty after a few days and it will go back to what it was, or it will fill up with 100s of people that are seeking realism. I would only make one more suggestion in order to add more realism. Make the bases 1000 miles apart so people can enjoy the flight to and from the buildings
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:rofl
You had me going there for a minute.:p
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Originally posted by Easyscor
:rofl
You had me going there for a minute.:p
Hehe, it was not all sarcasm. The AvA is not about the fight anymore. However, if war and realism is what people want then no icons and no dar is what would be more real (I would increase the area that causes a base to blink though). its a small plane set anyway so it would be relatively easy to tell what plane you are dealing with.
It will either fill up with people since everyone claims they want more realism or go empty and prove that they are just full of it. My guess is, it will attract more people. It will make hiding and attacking undefended bases easier but it will also increase the amount of planing an organized side would have to make to successfully defend, capture, and retain territory.
I probably wont try it since I am one of those dweebs that destroy game play by looking for planes to shoot at, but its a good idea if you are into the avoid a fight at all costs thingie.
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Ded,
You are wrong in your assumptions man. You are missing some good fights, and sometimes these "objectives" are at the root and create some great fights. True, not co-alt, small numbered, prearranged duels, like you enjoy, but your blanket assumptions are off the mark. The arena would benefit from your experience, but whatever...
No one I see or fly with is avoiding the fight. Sure, off hours, the toolshedding goes on like all the arena's, but peak hours have been a slugfest.
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I agree Stampf...
last week during the war, Us Tomcatters did a P-51D fighter sweep over one of your guys' bases. We were around 22k and found nothing, so we headed east and within 5 min of taking that heading we ran into a swarm of 190/109s at about the same alt. Was a heck of a furball 25ish P-51Ds fighting roughly the same number of 190/109s. Was by far the most fun ive ever had in AH period. If my memory serves me correctly, we only lost 2 or 3 guys but shot down every single 109/190. When we RTBed, those that still had ammo and fuel left jumped a 110 mission that was attack our base. Some of our guys, myself included landed around 5+ kills.
If your looking for pulse pounding, historical fights, AvA is the place for you!!
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Originally posted by Stampf
Ded,
You are wrong in your assumptions man. You are missing some good fights, and sometimes these "objectives" are at the root and create some great fights. True, not co-alt, small numbered, prearranged duels, like you enjoy, but your blanket assumptions are off the mark. The arena would benefit from your experience, but whatever...
No one I see or fly with is avoiding the fight. Sure, off hours, the toolshedding goes on like all the arena's, but peak hours have been a slugfest.
No assumptions. i was there for the first 2.5 weeks. First two weeks I think I was there everyday. I saw the fights. The only one making assumptions here is you about what I like. If 10 190s hovering over my head making 1 pass and run is what you call a fight then yes, you are right.
I don't like prearranged 1 vs 1 fights. I do like however entering a fight with at list a chance at fighting. Getting ganged by 10 guys with the excuse of fighting the war is not my idea of fighting. But as I said, a lot of people like that kind of "team" work and then create threads to brag about it so I honestly think, my suggestions could help.
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I missed the first 2.5 weeks, funny dat. I didn’t mean to assume anything, other than the one thing I have heard more about dedalos, is that he is “fair play” minded, amicable, and one of the best sticks currently in the game.
Guys don’t need the “war excuse” to vultch, gang, run, milk,…but I imagine “more” of that does go along with trying to capture objectives. Teamwork and stuff is all good, but I agree about the bragging crap going on. “Propaganda” is fun, but some of it is laughable, no arguments here about that. Let’s face it, with a larger population, comes different skill sets, experience levels, etc…
Your suggestions could defiantly help. That’s why I replied. The arena is changing for sure. I think it’s more good than bad. I would like to see the guys, like you who invested so much of their gaming time into the arena, come in and help mold and implement the changes, so that they enhance the situation, and give the newer players a model to follow.
I have been on the giving and receiving end of the 10 v 1 bang. We all have. BUT, it’s rare and mostly I have had good fights. Certainly no worse than we see in the Mains, and better if for nothing else then…at least we have side specific plane sets, and changing rides throughout the scenario.
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Originally posted by Stampf
I missed the first 2.5 weeks, funny dat. I didn’t mean to assume anything, other than the one thing I have heard more about dedalos, is that he is “fair play” minded, amicable, and one of the best sticks currently in the game.
You forgot "grouchy" and "moody." I think it was from all that goat cheese when he was a kid.
Dedalos is correct, the AvA fights are not what they once were. Possibly they never will be again. On the other hand, one can now log on at almost any time and find a fight, one that pits historical enemies against each other. In time, as the people here get to know each other better, I expect that the quality of the fights will improve.
Fact is, this is still the best of all arenas if you have any sense of history.
- oldman
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Fact is, this is still the best of all arenas if you have any sense of history.
And isn't that what really got the lions share of all of us, into this and similiar games to begin with?
The only certain thing is, the arena will reflect on those of us participating in the gameplay. Let's make it the best we can.
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Originally posted by Oldman731
You forgot "grouchy" and "moody."
- oldman
:rofl
I'd like to see Dedalos in there, flying for the allies hopefully. :)
Originally posted by Oldman731
Dedalos is correct, the AvA fights are not what they once were. Possibly they never will be again. On the other hand, one can now log on at almost any time and find a fight, one that pits historical enemies against each other. In time, as the people here get to know each other better, I expect that the quality of the fights will improve.
Fact is, this is still the best of all arenas if you have any sense of history.
- oldman
I agree. There are no more 15 minute white knuckle fights...but....seeing real squadrons of historically opposed aircraft in combat.....well for me it's worth the trade.
I can always go to the DA and get a white knuckle fight.
Sure it gets old being vulched, hoed, and ackran...but I suppose it does add a bit of realism...however dweeby it may be.
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I think we all agree in our unique ways, lol. It is the most historic of the arenas and it is where you should be if that is what you are looking for. Ganging and or vulching is what should happen in a war scenario and you should be upping from a dif field if you want to defend a field that has been caped. I really would not mind that at all BUT, most of the times, I dont have or don't know if I have 30 or 40 uninterrupted minutes to give to that.
So lets say I do fly for 15 mins to get to alt and the next base and get picked by 190 #5 that I could not track due to my bad SA. I try again and this time the dog needs to go out. OK, one more time, oh wait, kids cant reach the icecream :rofl .
So there we are 45 minutes later, guns have not been fired once yet, . . .. bla bla bla, you get the idea. So, it is nice when you can up and have a couple 2 minute fights and try again. That is why I like getting into a fight fast. History is good, and 45 minutes of flying with n o action would be historically accurate, but I just don't have that match uninterrupted time.
Now for the sarcasm. As far as helping mold people, I think we all know what happens when you try to talk to someone that already knows everything. I had a guy in the DA dieing for 20 minutes straight before he stopped explaining to me what I was doing wrong :confused: However, I am willing to help. I will try to reform Storch to be the nicest likable guy you ever met :D :D :D (and make him and his squad fly Spits)
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I do honestly think though that no dar and no icons would make it interesting. If nothing else, if you don't know where I am and what plane I fly, you cannot run until it is too late :rofl
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Originally posted by dedalos
(and make him and his squad fly Spits)
I'd rather wear a pink tutu and sing I'm a little teacup...
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If you turned icons off you would be simulating legally blind players, unfit or any combat action in any nation.
I believe HTC has said that FULL ZOOM is about equivelant to what the human eye can distinguish. Now, I can look out my window at work to a freeway overpass a mile away and clearly see general car size and color, if not specific makes/models. In AH at that range you get a frakking DOT. A single black pixel.
Icons are NOT gamey. Pretending icons are cheap is gamey.
Oh, how about this? HTC runs AH at 90 degrees FOV. How about limiting FOV to 50 degrees? 50 degrees is as close to the human eye as cameras can get. That'd be be the equivelant of being half-zoomed in at all times.
It's gamey to not have to warm up your engine for 30 minutes before you even launch the craft. It's gamey to not have to follow a 30-point button pushing, lever-pulling routine just to start the engine.
Enough with the "let's make this more realistic!" because let's face it -- it's just a game.
IMO the AvA has turned into a private playground. As Ded mentioned it's nothing but a complete gang rape almost every time I've been in there in the past 3-4 years.
I remember way back in AH1 it was much better. However things have changed. It USED to be like a mini-MA but with thematic planes. Now folks keep trying to "change it" or "enhance it" and it's just not working. Having a "war" is an interesting concept, but you've taken it too far by regimenting everything and assigning leaders, etc. You've basically stolen the precept of the FSO.
I think the AvA has long since lost its way, and with the introduction of CT I'm expecting (hoping? Maybe that's the wrong connotation) it to be shut down.
I used to be a major supporter of the AvA concept. I used to love the idea more than the MA. With the way it's devolved since then, I don't.
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I used to be a major supporter of the AvA concept. I used to love the idea more than the MA. With the way it's devolved since then, I don't.
What do you like more about the MA?
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Originally posted by Krusty
I think the AvA has long since lost its way, and with the introduction of CT I'm expecting (hoping? Maybe that's the wrong connotation) it to be shut down.
You have taken the lead for "Least Useful Post of the Week."
I'll bet you can count on one hand the number of times you've been in AvA this year. You don't like to fly here, fine, we understand that, don't fly here. But don't emulate Aesop's dog in the manger by pushing to end the fun for the rest of us, please. You've made it plain that you don't consider it to be any of your business.
- oldman
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You have taken the lead for "Least Useful Post of the Week."
...and that's no small accomplishment. Really Krusty, you could fill ballons with that whole fluffed tirade.
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I call BS on the "make it realistic" comments. Real war is an economic contest. Limitations in man power, equipment, infrastructure, and the publics support would more closely simulate war. You want more realism here ya go: One life or at least limited lives, limited plane production, time and resource penalties for damages, idiot congressmen and their constituents trying to sabotage the effort to prove it was a bad idea, I could go on.
When I saw the posting of the K/D stats by plane it sparked a thought. The loss of planes and pilots would be a major determining factor in deciding a war to establish air dominance. So maybe the plane loss statistics should factor into plane availability. In other words make landing important to success in the game to the extent that pork and die tactics would ensure loss of the game("war"). Let's face it, as the game is now, the best tactic is to pork then bail, ditch, or auger.
How bout this: Make winning the "war" contingent on 2 point factors.
(1) Verfied non-milk base captures which encourages engagement.
(2) K/D stats which discourages suicide tactics.
Not perfect but better than land grab alone.
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Originally posted by KONG1
I call BS on the "make it realistic" comments. Real war is an economic contest. Limitations in man power, equipment, infrastructure, and the publics support would more closely simulate war. You want more realism here ya go: One life or at least limited lives, limited plane production, time and resource penalties for damages, idiot congressmen and their constituents trying to sabotage the effort to prove it was a bad idea, I could go on.
When I saw the posting of the K/D stats by plane it sparked a thought. The loss of planes and pilots would be a major determining factor in deciding a war to establish air dominance. So maybe the plane loss statistics should factor into plane availability. In other words make landing important to success in the game to the extent that pork and die tactics would ensure loss of the game("war"). Let's face it, as the game is now, the best tactic is to pork then bail, ditch, or auger.
How bout this: Make winning the "war" contingent on 2 point factors.
(1) Verfied non-milk base captures which encourages engagement.
(2) K/D stats which discourages suicide tactics.
Not perfect but better than land grab alone.
I can see it now. Spy switches sides, logs in in the midle of the night and starts dieing in the ack. Next thing you know, no 190 fo U!
Hmmmmm, I kind of like it :rofl
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You are exactly right. Dweebism is like water, it seeks the lowest point and finds all the cracks.
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Originally posted by KONG1
You are exactly right. Dweebism is like water, it seeks the lowest point and finds all the cracks.
You sir are wrong. That person would have been a highly decorated hero in real life :(
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Whether you call my opinion on the current AvA fluff or not, my point regarding icons remains.
Turning icons off in the pursuit of "realism" is akin to poking your pilots in the eyes with sharp implements before sending them into combat.
Especially since AH has horrid display properties of fighters (black outlines, silver outlines, no outlines, just pure black shapes) beyond "obvious identification" ranges.
Oh, and I know from experience that a P-51B looks almost identical to a 109G2 up until you're close enough to see the invasion stripes on the wings. I did "no icons" once and was amazed at how badly AH displays things outside of 250 yards. This is something wider than my house (40' wingspan) and it was an almost-all-black plane-shaped blob until I was close enough to see bright black and white stripes.
Had he been using another skin I'd have shot him down, and I was on his side!
I have 20/20. I have a good video card, a decent monitor, 1280x1024 resolution. The technology available to any home computer just doesn't compare to what a human eye can see.
I wanted to refute the idea of "no icons for better realism." That isn't "fluff" (regardless of whether you agree)
:cool:
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Originally posted by KONG1
(2) K/D stats which discourages suicide tactics.
Well, my first thought was to just zero out scores when folks die. But, thinking about the volume of dweeb whines leads me to suggest simply giving no points for missions where one doesn't survive.
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Originally posted by dedalos
You sir are wrong. That person would have been a highly decorated hero in real life :(
You sir are correct, but in real life he only could have done it once.
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Originally posted by KONG1
You sir are correct, but in real life he only could have done it once.
definetly an act of desperation not heroism
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Originally posted by KONG1
You sir are correct, but in real life he only could have done it once.
Unless he was smart enough to bail, walk back to the base, get a new plane, rinse and repeat :rofl
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Originally posted by Krusty
Turning icons off in the pursuit of "realism" is akin to poking your pilots in the eyes with sharp implements before sending them into combat.
Especially since AH has horrid display properties of fighters (black outlines, silver outlines, no outlines, just pure black shapes) beyond "obvious identification" ranges.
But that is easily fixed. Just avoid the dots. Remember, your goal is deliver your ord on a building and return to base without a scratch. Fly low over the trees and no one will see you with out that read icon screaming "LOOK!!!! BAD GUY HERE!!!!!!"
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Originally posted by Krusty
Whether you call my opinion on the current AvA fluff or not, my point regarding icons remains.
In the current setup icon range was 2.5 (i think) and I could easily tell the difference between a 38, 51, F4u etc before the icon even popped. Within 1k the plane should be seen and recognized by the most visually challenged among us. By the time it is within a good firing distance, even my 6 month old can tell if it's ebil or good.
As far as your "opinion" on the AvA, I think that's a misnomer. An opinion tends to be backed up by experience. Your statement was something that is commonly called "speaking out of ones excretory orifice", so to speak.
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Originally posted by republic
In the current setup icon range was 2.5 (i think) and I could easily tell the difference between a 38, 51, F4u etc before the icon even popped. Within 1k the plane should be seen and recognized by the most visually challenged among us. By the time it is within a good firing distance, even my 6 month old can tell if it's ebil or good.
As far as your "opinion" on the AvA, I think that's a misnomer. An opinion tends to be backed up by experience. Your statement was something that is commonly called "speaking out of ones excretory orifice", so to speak.
:rofl
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Originally posted by republic
In the current setup icon range was 2.5 (i think) and I could easily tell the difference between a 38, 51, F4u etc before the icon even popped. Within 1k the plane should be seen and recognized by the most visually challenged among us. By the time it is within a good firing distance, even my 6 month old can tell if it's ebil or good.
As far as your "opinion" on the AvA, I think that's a misnomer. An opinion tends to be backed up by experience. Your statement was something that is commonly called "speaking out of ones excretory orifice", so to speak.
Storch, is that you?:rofl
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I know, right? must be the warm beer. lord knows that will piss anyone off, well except the brits.
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Originally posted by Oldman731
You have taken the lead for "Least Useful Post of the Week."
I'll bet you can count on one hand the number of times you've been in AvA this year. You don't like to fly here, fine, we understand that, don't fly here. But don't emulate Aesop's dog in the manger by pushing to end the fun for the rest of us, please. You've made it plain that you don't consider it to be any of your business.
- oldman
Ah, our yearly visit from Krusty. And I forgot to bake cookies and decorate the glue traps.:(
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Originally posted by Slash27
Ah, our yearly visit from Krusty. And I forgot to bake cookies and decorate the glue traps.:(
:rofl