Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 33Vortex on February 21, 2008, 09:33:30 AM
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So, a hot topic no doubt. Here it is again.
I was up and about in a 190D, as usual, came across a zeke and came in from above much because the opportunity presented itself. There were other enemies around, mostly F4Us from the carrier nearby. Now the zeke has a incredible low speed handling, nevertheless I never thought this would happen because his E was so low. It's not the first time I misjudge a zeke, and I don't mind going down because of a mistake. My beef with this is that he came up to greet me, did not hit me but collided with me (or I collided with him) I went down and he did not. Afterwards he had the kindness of coming back to shoot me in the chute.
Now... what the heck is the logic behind one plane going down and not the other? Could someone care to explain that to me because I do not get it. Some people get away with flying like they are invincible, pulling stunts that are clearly suicidal and make it out fine just because the collision system allow them to.
A mid-air usually occur when one, or both, pilot(s) make a mistake. The result irl is both pilots involved will suffer structural damage (doh!). From what I recall, the current system was introduced in AH to make the aggressor go down and not the victim. Well, it certainly is not working because the collision detection system generally reward those going for a collision course.
Like I said, I have no problem whatsoever with going down because I make a mistake. What upsets me is that both planes should go down if a mid-air occur, not one. There should be no reward in being suicidal and flying into other a/c.
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uh oh.... duck and cover! duck and cover!
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Find Bronks pictures, I do not have clearence or the permission to post them.
And in real life two planes collide they both do not automatically fall to the ground.
And I dont know for sure but I really doubt this is why HiTech Modeled collisions:
" From what I recall, the current system was introduced in AH to make the aggressor go down and not the victim. Well, it certainly is not working because the collision detection system generally reward those going for a collision course."
AH heck, I'll post them anyway :)
Originally posted by Bronk
Yes I'm serious there is no way to win a collision. Think you need to think about it.
Tell me whats to decide on who "wins a collision"
Tangle's external from his front end the moment of impact.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/Tanglesview.jpg)
Same basic angle external, tangle's view from my front end moment of impact.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n277/1bronk1/myview.jpg)
There is no decision to be made. I ran into tangle I take damage.
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From what I recall, the current system was introduced in AH to make the aggressor go down and not the victim.
You recall incorrectly.
HiTech
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Originally posted by Lusche
Here is a even more telling example: Both (european) players have stable 150ms pings to the HTC server:
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2236/rammyfeve9.jpg)
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9027/ramotherfeen9.jpg)
Both pictures show the exact moment of impact. First picture is from MY film (Pony), second from my enemy's film (Jug). Pony driver (me) rammed the Jug. Only I took damage, because the collision happened only on MY computer.
Originally posted by 33Vortex
What upsets me is that both planes should go down if a mid-air occur, not one. .
Looking at the above pics, you are hopefully reconsidering your point of view ;)
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As I recall, it was changed so that people would quit whining about losing collisions while the other guy flew off unscathed. Or maybe it was changed so they would start. It was something like that. ;)
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The only change there has ever been to AH collision modeling is to add the text that appears in the buffer.
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You should read the notes on lag and how it affects game play. What is happening on your FE is your 'reality' and is not exactly what is happening on the other guys FE.
Its also important to note that the other guy is ahead of where he appears on your FE so don't complain when you get killed by an 'impossible' shot. (on his side you were in the crosshairs)
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I rarely collide these days only time is if your in deep and some idiot runs into the back of me and I don't see him. Thats annoying when your elevators are off and he didnt fire a shot then flies off undamaged.
But as these pictures explain he didnt see no collision on his front end so didnt take damage. Then how did my elevators fall off if he didnt pull the trigger and rammed them with his prop? thats what i don't get.
Still I think the collision model is ok because the only other option is instant explosion of both planes. Rarely do you see the other guy fly off unharmed. Surely you've had a case where someone has run into you and they have died whilst you've taken no damage. People tend to not complain when its that way around ;)
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Collisions usually remind me of grade school and report card time..
Hey I got an A in math [ you did the work and understood it, take the pat on the back. ]
He/She {the Teacher} gave me an F. [ didn't do the work deflecting blame to teacher. ]
With collisions it's always the 'other guy' who of course always 'intentionally' did it.
I do my fair shore of colliding and being collided into rarely intentional, but I think its a by product of flying very tight and close in a dogfight.
I will admit I occasionally when out of ammo try to get a bomber to collide with me.
Learned mostly after my Trainer days when trying to get enemy bombers away from A1 on ndiles.
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Originally posted by bcadoo
You should read the notes on lag and how it affects game play. What is happening on your FE is your 'reality' and is not exactly what is happening on the other guys FE.
Please also read the notes on what the minimum lag you should expect is and where it is coming from ;)
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Originally posted by Bruv119
But as these pictures explain he didnt see no collision on his front end so didnt take damage. Then how did my elevators fall off if he didnt pull the trigger and rammed them with his prop? thats what i don't get.
Your PC observed that your elevators were trying to occupy space currently occupied by an airplane, and as such, were destroyed. There is no intent determined by the game- it just flags a collision when it determines that two objects are in the same place at the same time. It doesn't care who is in what, how fast they are going, or where they're heading. If part of your plane is at x,y,z point in space, and it sees another plane pass through x,y,z, you have collided.
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I've become much happier now that when I get A collision message I just say
"dammit!" Part of the game....it just happens
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The only collisions I have a problem with are the ones where you can be flying on autopilot level and some guy comes in dead on your six but yet you are told that you hit him. LOL :rofl I would like to know when the reverse was installed on my plane lol. This doesn't happen real often but I have to laugh when it does.
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Considering the lag and looking at the pictures posted, I understand how and why the collision detection work the way it does. It still sux tho because some people seem to take advantage of how it works.
The only situation I consistently run into high risk of collision is in a diving attack right after a vertical reverse. Some people seem to think they can win by pulling up and shoot me in the face, this rarely happens. More often than not I shoot them to smithereens or miss, sometimes tho I do fly into them with too little airspeed to evade in time when trying to take the shot. I've also come across people who enter a spin right in front of me thus flying into me, effectively shooting me down that way. Bombers can also be risky to attack at high speed but I don't recall last time I flew into one.
I'll be more careful pulling vertical reverses on zekes now. :eek:
I see some players fly like they're invincible, particularly Il-2s in base defense mode and the japanese planes are plain suicidal going after higher opponents.
Ah my sig got busted! :D
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I ran out of ammo trying to down some Lancs that were heading to drop the last FH on a base we were losing. Having watched the DogFight episode about Germans ramming B17s recently, I said what the heck.
No one else would reach them in time and I was already a bit shot up, so I intentionally collided. Hmmm, brought one down with no damage to me. OK, I'll try another with the same basic hit...down he goes and still no damage to me. Might as well go for the last one...yep, same hit, down he goes.
Probably just a combination of his view vs mine and maybe the certain way I hit him, but I won't be trying it again. It was lame on my part but I sorta got caught up in the moment and curiosity about finding what could be a bug. I did bail and give him the kill as his last Lanc spiraled downward.
Won't be trying it again because I hate collisions and discovering a way to reliably down bombers by colliding would be Pandora's box.
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Originally posted by 33Vortex
Considering the lag and looking at the pictures posted, I understand how and why the collision detection work the way it does. It still sux tho because some people seem to take advantage of how it works.
Can you explain how one would go about "taking advantage of how it works"?
Think really hard about that. I think you will find that there really no way to take advantage of the collision model becasue you have no idea what the other guy sees.
What you are implying is that someone would know exactly how close to fly to someone else in order to make the two planes collide on the other guy's front end and not on his. This is impossible becasue the seperation between any two given front ends is always changing.
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Originally posted by Gulp
I ran out of ammo trying to down some Lancs that were heading to drop the last FH on a base we were losing. Having watched the DogFight episode about Germans ramming B17s recently, I said what the heck.
No one else would reach them in time and I was already a bit shot up, so I intentionally collided. Hmmm, brought one down with no damage to me. OK, I'll try another with the same basic hit...down he goes and still no damage to me. Might as well go for the last one...yep, same hit, down he goes.
Probably just a combination of his view vs mine and maybe the certain way I hit him, but I won't be trying it again. It was lame on my part but I sorta got caught up in the moment and curiosity about finding what could be a bug. I did bail and give him the kill as his last Lanc spiraled downward.
Won't be trying it again because I hate collisions and discovering a way to reliably down bombers by colliding would be Pandora's box.
So you are saying that you intentionally ran into the lancs and saw your plane hit the lancs?
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Originally posted by hitech
You recall incorrectly.
HiTech
Please elaborate.
Spazz
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Originally posted by Spazzter
Please elaborate.
Spazz
It does not matter and the game does not care who is the "aggressor" and who is not. All that matters is on who's PC two airplanes were detected occupying the same space.
The same is true for the guy whing about colliding while on autolevel.
People keep insisting in thinking of it like an auto collision and who is at fault and who is not. You all need to stop and look at it like a computer with no fault and just a detection of intersecting polygons.
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Originally posted by hitech
You recall incorrectly.
Ouch.
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Nevermind...was pointless anyway...:rolleyes:
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IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAINTAIN SEPARATION. Deal with it.
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Originally posted by Bronk
IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAINTAIN SEPARATION. Deal with it.
So in an attempt to deal with it, if we are both merging at about 350mph each if I try to maintain about 600ft of separation I should be safe right?
What is that magical net lag everyone is talking about? How match time are we talking about?
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1 ft would do it.
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Originally posted by dedalos
So in an attempt to deal with it, if we are both merging at about 350mph each if I try to maintain about 600ft of separation I should be safe right?
What is that magical net lag everyone is talking about? How match time are we talking about?
Just avoid the enemy plane on your screen. It's irrelevant what is happening on your enemy's screen, because you do not take damage if the collision is only on HIS screen.
Again, take a look at the pics.
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Originally posted by hitech
1 ft would do it.
One would think that, but isn't it possible that since updates leave the FE at 250ms intervals and also received at 250ms that if my luck is not that good and the timing is right, even though on my FE I maintained at list 500ft of separation, I all of a sudden receive an update that puts the other plane right in front of me? How could I possibly try to maintain separation in that case?
Unless the rate of updates increases as distance closes or the smoothing algo takes care of that, but if that is not the case, what can I do to avoid a collision I never saw coming? Then again, my numbers may be wrong but there has to be a magic number that this could happen. I would assume these games are not true real time. It would not be practical so there has to be some queuing on the server and the FE. Can you share that number or is it proprietary info?
Thank you
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Originally posted by dedalos
One would think that, but isn't it possible that since updates leave the FE at 250ms intervals and also received at 250ms that if my luck is not that good and the timing is right, even though on my FE I maintained at list 500ft of separation, I all of a sudden I receive an update that puts the other plane right in front of me? How could I possibly try to maintain separation in that case?
Unless the rate of updates increases as distance closes or the smoothing algo takes care of that, but if that is not the case, what can I do to avoid a collision I never saw coming? Then again, my numbers may be wrong but there has to be a magic number that this could happen. I would assume these games are not true real time. It would not be practical so there has to be some queuing on the server and the FE. Can you share that number or is it proprietary info?
Thank you
Unless there is packet loss, smoothing code makes it impossible.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Unless there is packet loss, smoothing code makes it impossible.
why cant you wait for HT? Ho wrote the coad, no?
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Originally posted by dedalos
I all of a sudden receive an update that puts the other plane right in front of me? How could I possibly try to maintain separation in that case?
That would be only happening as a result of an major warp.
You are thinkin way too complicated by the way.
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Originally posted by Lusche
That would be only happening as a result of an major warp.
You are thinkin way too complicated by the way.
Nah, its a classic DA scenario. You merge head on but off to the right of someone at about 350. You pull up to where he is not and boom, you have collided message comes up. I mean, I am not that dumb (it is not a question btw) I know when I hit someone and when I didn't, especially on a head on pass where the guy is always in my view. Think mini warps.
In any case, my point is that I cannot always maintain separation. Just responding to the net lag crowd and the " its your fault crowd". It was not meant as anything else
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Originally posted by dedalos
What is that magical net lag everyone is talking about?
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/2236/rammyfeve9.jpg) (http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9027/ramotherfeen9.jpg)
The space difference between the 2 ac is the "magical net lag".
Same moment in time but different pictures of the same event.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Nah, its a classic DA scenario. You merge head on but off to the right of someone at about 350. You pull up to where he is not and boom, you have collided message comes up. I mean, I am not that dumb (it is not a question btw) I know when I hit someone and when I didn't, especially on a head on pass where the guy is always in my view. Think mini warps.
Film it and post it. You will see that it's not happening that way.
BTW, the above pictures were the result of some testing in DA.
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Originally posted by Lusche
Film it and post it. You will see that it's not happening that way.
BTW, the above pictures were the result of some testing in DA.
Yes, nothing wrong with those pictures. That is just one of the ways it can happen. Probably the most common. No argument there.
How about the scenario I described. Most people refer to net lag thinking is the sum of the ping times of the two FEs and then they explain it as if the really have a clue or have seen the coad. I think that that is nothing compared to the way things work. That is why asked what is it. What is the minimum number of milliseconds between updates? To me it looks like the minimum is 500ms + ping time. That would explain what I described above and why I get shot from impossible angles. At 600ms and 350mph each the distance traveled would be pretty big no? What if the two guys have a ping of 200ms each? Now we are talking a lag of about a second.
The pictures describe that situation perfectly, but that is only one case.
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dedalos: You are incorrect, what you describe does not happen.
The lag has no effect on how quick something will change directions. It will still take a smooth flight path, you just see where he was 250 MS ago just as you have seen him your entire flight. The point is simple, do not fly into the other plane, and you will not collide just like in real life, you can not predict the moves of another pilot.
HiTech
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Originally posted by dedalos
Yes, nothing wrong with those pictures. That is just one of the ways it can happen. Probably the most common. No argument there.
How about the scenario I described. Most people refer to net lag thinking is the sum of the ping times of the two FEs and then they explain it as if the really have a clue or have seen the coad. I think that that is nothing compared to the way things work. That is why asked what is it. What is the minimum number of milliseconds between updates? To me it looks like the minimum is 500ms + ping time. That would explain what I described above and why I get shot from impossible angles. At 600ms and 350mph each the distance traveled would be pretty big no? What if the two guys have a ping of 200ms each? Now we are talking a lag of about a second.
The pictures describe that situation perfectly, but that is only one case.
You are confusing things.
Do NOT compare "being shot at impossible angles" with colisions.
The latter one is a result of things happening ON YOUR FE. Collision on your screen = Damage to you.
Gunfire however is always determined on the FE of the firing player. YOU hit a enemy on your screen, he has to hit you on his.
And the scenario you have described "You pull up to where he is not and boom, you have collided message comes up." simply does not happen. I'm still waiting for any film depicting this.
No collision on your screen = No damage from collsion at all.
It's all much simpler than you seem to think. I can only refer you again to "How net lag affects Aces High" on http://trainers.hitechcreations.com
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Originally posted by hitech
dedalos: You are incorrect, what you describe does not happen.
The lag has no effect on how quick something will change directions. It will still take a smooth flight path, you just see where he was 250 MS ago just as you have seen him your entire flight. The point is simple, do not fly into the other plane, and you will not collide just like in real life, you can not predict the moves of another pilot.
HiTech
Thank you
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Originally posted by Lusche
And the scenario you have described "You pull up to where he is not and boom, you have collided message comes up." simply does not happen. I'm still waiting for any film depicting this.
No collision on your screen = No damage from collsion at all.
It's all much simpler than you seem to think. I can only refer you again to "How net lag affects Aces High" on http://trainers.hitechcreations.com
no no no, lol. I am not saying there was no collision on my end foo :furious
I am saying that sometimes there is no way to avoid it due to an update coming in. HT said that does not happen so maybe what is causing it is dropped packets or a warp.
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Originally posted by dedalos
why I get shot from impossible angles.
Thats just me with my rifle on the grassily knole:noid
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Originally posted by Karnak
All that matters is on who's PC two airplanes were detected occupying the same space.
BINGO! /\ what Karnak said /\
I am guilty of complaining about the collision model years ago under my past account until it dawned on me how it works.
If you get damage/kilt in a collision, it's because YOU (your computer) saw it. the other guy (his computer) did not.
Why? lag. The server sends info about the "world" and your computer sends back info on how you changed it (what you did with your airplane to react with the "world") This happens 4 times a second. Now consider everyone's computer that is playing in that arena is doing the same thing. It is unlikely that any 2 players' computers are sending the exact same thing at the exact same time. This is lag.....a slight difference between what you "see" and what the other guy "sees". You (and your computer) see two planes trying to occupy the same space at the same time. The other guy (and his computer) sees separation between aircraft. You lose parts, he flies off.
Note:
I may be off base on this, but it's how I understand it and it seems logical. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Originally posted by dedalos
no no no, lol. I am not saying there was no collision on my end foo :furious
I am saying that sometimes there is no way to avoid it due to an update coming in. HT said that does not happen so maybe what is causing it is dropped packets or a warp.
I've been seeing 60-100% packet loss in the Chicago area between Savvis and AT&T the last few nights. No idea if that could be your problem, but I haven't even been able to play. Ping time swinging between 180 and 3600ms. Awesome.
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Originally posted by Roundeye
This happens more times a second than you can imagine.
Note:
I may be off base on this, but it's how I understand it and it seems logical. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
4 times a second.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
4 times a second.
TY. (hence the 250ms mention by HT....duh)
fixed.
That much info stuffed through a wire in 1/4 of a second is still hard to imagine:D For me, anyway....I'm NOT a computer guy.
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I have never understood the collision threads, I rarely collide with another a/c, it does happen, and I will say most of the time its my own damn fault too...but s*** happens in a dogfight at 400 mph, oh well.
...but the infrequency of them just does not compel me to make a big deal out of it. I get hit by heavy AAA too, I dont like it, but flack sometimes hits you, what you gunna do?
...and for all those on Ch 200 that are always accusing another player of deliberately colliding, thats rubbish, most do not...you have a lot of a/c flying around at high speeds, many without 8-way hat views, many n00bs, and its bound to happen, so chill on the "conspiracy theories" its just whining.
If you want a nice safe flight, here, happy skies:
http://www.microsoft.com/games/flightsimulatorx/
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
4 times a second.
well, 4 but . . . . 250 from their FE to the server and 250 from the server to you + ping time. You do get an update every 250ms but you are looking at is 500ms old at best
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I've been seeing 60-100% packet loss in the Chicago area between Savvis and AT&T the last few nights. No idea if that could be your problem, but I haven't even been able to play. Ping time swinging between 180 and 3600ms. Awesome.
Well, you are in indiana and Chicago is the windy city. My guess is that as the smoke signals you use for a a telephone line go over Chicago they get blown away. I don't think that has anything to do with the telecoms here.
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The packet, whether going to the other guy or coming in to you, is (your ping + his ping + whatever ms the server needs to route it) old, and they come every 250ms, right?
If you get 2 guys with slow (250ms+) connections, yeah, the info they get on each other will be 600ms behind, but it will still be consistantly delayed, right? And if you get 2 guys with fast connections (sub 100), they are playing as close to real-time as is possible- they are able to send and receive that data as fast as the game is able to ask for it. Their info is also consistently delayed, just by a different amount of time. It's not 500ms+ for everyone all the time.
Note that this assumes stable connections. When guys start losing packets or udp or whatever, and the smoothing code tries to predict where they're going for several seconds, and then the next known location is way off some other direction, yeah, you can't avoid **** until their packets start coming consistently again. When that happens though, that's not a fault of the game- you either draw the guy standing still, try to predict his path, or just immediately disco everyone everytime there's a hiccup somewhere.
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I was just wondering when the next collision beat-up would be - its been too quiet in the last month...
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oooooo thank god.......someone took the heat off of me for the one i started:D
sorry..couldn't resist
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Thanks for clearing that up for me Hub.
As for the collision messages both players get one right?
If that is so and the enemy plane realises he got away with it and the other guy died, I think out of sporting behaviour he should be morally inclined to Bail out.
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Originally posted by Bruv119
Thanks for clearing that up for me Hub.
As for the collision messages both players get one right?
If that is so and the enemy plane realises he got away with it and the other guy died, I think out of sporting behaviour he should be morally inclined to Bail out.
:huh
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There is no "got away with it".
On one side a collision occurred, on the other side it didn't.
Should I take out my pistol and shoot myself just because you drove by my house in your car? On my end we never touched, so no damage.
One one PC a collision occurs, damage is dealt. On the other he missed, no collision occurs, he takes no damage.
However guns still work on both sides. And there is no message that says
"Player X collided with you, and took damage, but shot you to pieces as he did so"
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If he jumps out i will think that guy appreciates the flaws in the collision model.
My thinking isnt to do with shooting at all just guys that don't pull the trigger and run into me.
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Originally posted by Bruv119
My thinking isnt to do with shooting at all just guys that don't pull the trigger and run into me.
Understand this:
That guy that "did not pull the trigger and ran into you" DID NOT SEE WHAT YOU SAW ON HIS FRONT END.
From his point of view he never ran into you.
Understand?
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I understand all right i'm just trying to put myself in both perspectives.
If his plane wasn't there I would be flying happily along minding my own business. Internet lag or not his action of flying near our bit of airspace has resulted in a collision.
It does have its Pros the way it is now and i'm not asking for it to be changed. Both planes exploding is what i'm familiar with, if your inside the collision bubble both planes are totally screwed. At least here you can land busted up birds.
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I think that if there is a collision, both sides should die.
:t
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At least that would remove any large grey area or doubt over who should have died :t
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Careful sim, that troll WILL bite you.
:)
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
The packet, whether going to the other guy or coming in to you, is (your ping + his ping + whatever ms the server needs to route it) old, and they come every 250ms, right?
If you get 2 guys with slow (250ms+) connections, yeah, the info they get on each other will be 600ms behind, but it will still be consistantly delayed, right? And if you get 2 guys with fast connections (sub 100), they are playing as close to real-time as is possible- they are able to send and receive that data as fast as the game is able to ask for it. Their info is also consistently delayed, just by a different amount of time. It's not 500ms+ for everyone all the time.
Note that this assumes stable connections. When guys start losing packets or udp or whatever, and the smoothing code tries to predict where they're going for several seconds, and then the next known location is way off some other direction, yeah, you can't avoid **** until their packets start coming consistently again. When that happens though, that's not a fault of the game- you either draw the guy standing still, try to predict his path, or just immediately disco everyone everytime there's a hiccup somewhere.
Yeah, I was adding the amount of time between packets like and idiot. In reality even though it is firing every 250ms it does send the latest and greatest info so your lag should be (his ping + 250ms + your ping = how old is what you see).
Something does happen though, and maybe it is mini warps maybe not. I guess I need the disclaimer again here. I am not saying that my FE did not see the collision. I am saying that some times, even though it looks like I am clear, I do collide. Film does show the collision. I am just trying to figure out what happens.
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Originally posted by Bruv119
At least that would remove any large grey area or doubt over who should have died :t
Dang simaril, you have some great bait trolling behind your boat.
HiTech
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smilie indicating stinky bait.
That aside I believe being rammed from no fault of your own, taking damage and the other guy flying off is the biggest flaw/misconception of this topic.
it's very easy to say X and Y's front end did this yours didnt, insert internet lag and whammo thats the answer. Technically speaking it is but when your in game flying and experiencing the chitty end of the stick hence vortex's post I can see why he posted it.
Vortex is a very good player and I can share his frustration when it does happen. Again as I said further up its acceptable to me the way it is.
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Originally posted by Bruv119
Then how did my elevators fall off if he didnt pull the trigger and rammed them with his prop? thats what i don't get.
The trick to that is, even though on your FE he hit you the collision was registered on your FE and not his.
On his FE he could have been 200 yards off your six and flew past without collision.
It's just in the wording of the collision notice 'You have collided with XXXX'. This leads one to believe that they have been hit by another aircraft when it's not any different to you running up the back of someone yourself.
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Originally posted by dedalos
I am saying that some times, even though it looks like I am clear, I do collide. Film does show the collision. I am just trying to figure out what happens.
Just plain old packet loss will cause that.
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Originally posted by hitech
1 ft would do it.
Are we talking a little baby foot or a big Ol cable yanking Skuzzy foot?
ahhhhhhhhhhhh, shaddupfuzeman!!!
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So, if both guys get collision message (both collided), and both die in process, who gets the kill?
The guy with better ping times?
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Assuming no one is around, or has damaged either player, I think the guy with the higher ping time gets the kill on the other, because he lives (high ping - low ping)ms longer.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
So, if both guys get collision message (both collided), and both die in process, who gets the kill?
The guy with better ping times?
The one that dies at last. And that depends on several factor - not only lag. I could use a wing and fall down to earth while you explode instantly due to where our planes exactly hit each other. I would get the kill.
Or the collision might have happened while you went up and I nosed down - if no plane explodes immediately I would probably impact earlier, thus giving you the kill.
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I think he means if both explode from the colision
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Originally posted by dedalos
I think he means if both explode from the colision
Yes, that's what I meant.
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I have 2 films I made last night, both had collisions.
First one, I am behind a P-51B and get a message that he collided with me, I take lethal damage and get no message that I collided with him. The P-51 also got credit for the kill. Proxy maybe?
Second one, I am in an F4U-1 and pinned down on the deck by a Spitfire9 and an A6M5. I actually force the Zero to overshoot (:D) but he loops up and over and collides with me as he tries to turn inside my slow hawg. This time we both got collision messages. We both lose parts of our wings, he goes down immediately but I somehow managed to maintain control.....until I pulled my gear back up that is, then I lost control immediately and crashed. :rofl
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I did a HO against a Me262 in my Mosquito the other day and we both got the kill. Wasn't a collision though, we both exploded about 400 yards from eachother.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I have 2 films I made last night, both had collisions.
First one, I am behind a P-51B and get a message that he collided with me, I take lethal damage and get no message that I collided with him.
In his FE you were in front of his guns. He shot you and collided with ya.
Member getting shot from impossible angles? That would be an impossible angle for your FE lol
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Originally posted by dedalos
In his FE you were in front of his guns. He shot you and collided with ya.
Member getting shot from impossible angles? That would be an impossible angle for your FE lol
I just watched it again, at the point of collision, in my film we are dead even, so you are most likely correct that on his FE I was most likely in front of his guns.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I just watched it again, at the point of collision, in my film we are dead even, so you are most likely correct that on his FE I was most likely in front of his guns.
AH bullets some times act like the bullets in "who framed Roger Rabbit" :rofl
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Elfie: You now understand you did not collide, only he did?
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I don't think so, Hub.. I lose get no kills for a lot of the killshots I make in GVs, which looks a lot like the lower ping tank sends a kill report to the server faster than I do.
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Originally posted by moot
I don't think so, Hub.. I lose get no kills for a lot of the killshots I make in GVs, which looks a lot like the lower ping tank sends a kill report to the server faster than I do.
Or he fired first?
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Originally posted by hitech
Elfie: You now understand you did not collide, only he did?
Oh yeah, I knew that from the start because the only collision message was from him. I just didn't watch the film close enough to see that on my FE we were basically dead even when I died, which most likely means I was actually in front of him on his FE and took lethal damage from his guns. I had to slow the film way down and pan the view around a bit to see that.
I'll use my new found skill at taking screen shots in films to show what I saw the instant before I died. :D
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg18/Shooter912/Collision51.jpg)
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Originally posted by dedalos
Or he fired first?
I think the time of flight of the turret round, the netroute roundtrip time on his end, and the one way time from my pc to the HTC server are often all pretty much the same.
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Originally posted by moot
I don't think so, Hub.. I lose get no kills for a lot of the killshots I make in GVs, which looks a lot like the lower ping tank sends a kill report to the server faster than I do.
In the case of a collision, I think the faster connection sees the collision first, since in theory, they should see things happen sooner, or at a lesser distance, than would the slower connection. In the case of guns, I think the lower your ping, the better off you are. You're going to have shots fired and packets otw to the server before the other guy's get there, even if he fires at the same moment or even slightly before you do.
Brain hurteds.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Your PC observed that your elevators were trying to occupy space currently occupied by an airplane, and as such, were destroyed. There is no intent determined by the game- it just flags a collision when it determines that two objects are in the same place at the same time. It doesn't care who is in what, how fast they are going, or where they're heading. If part of your plane is at x,y,z point in space, and it sees another plane pass through x,y,z, you have collided.
But does this apply to bullet hits too?
It should. You should only be hit by bullets your pc observes hitting you.
If not, you are in the position of a blind man in a room trying to avoid being hit by the angry guy with the baseball bat. You can jink and run around all you want, but he's still going to hit you because you can't see what he's doing. (Of course the guy who follows you closely and peppers your plane with 20mm rounds is going to complain because he can't understand that you are flying away scot free because your machine doesn't see the damage).
A few posts back, we were told that "miracle" shots occur because his PC sees his bullets hitting your plane even though your PC doesn't see such a thing.
So which is it? And which is fair?
My feeling on the collision model in here: It's as overthought and overly complex as the ENY system and the base capture order system _ way too much 'splaining required for something that should be simple. Two planes collide, two planes go down. Like our current system, it's unfair to one person, but it's a hell of a lot easier to explain and doesn't require constant posts and replayings of the Zaprueder film of collisions to prove which is "right."
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Guys I am no fan of the collision model either BUT apparantly its all to do with which machine sees the collision.
I understand what you see on your screen is accurate for YOU. Therefore If you fly into the other plane you will get a collision... the server interpolates the "lag effect" and adjusts each client end accordingly so that both have as accurate a picture as possible of whats going on.
So in short, Don't get to close on YOUR computer otherwise you'll end up colliding with the other guy and possibly throwing your monitor out the window in a fit of rage.
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Dude.
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Originally posted by Baine
My feeling on the collision model in here: It's as overthought and overly complex as the ENY system and the base capture order system _ way too much 'splaining required for something that should be simple. Two planes collide, two planes go down. Like our current system, it's unfair to one person, but it's a hell of a lot easier to explain and doesn't require constant posts and replayings of the Zaprueder film of collisions to prove which is "right."
The contrary is right: The current collision model is as easy as one can ever be. Collision on your screen - you take damage. Simple & as fair as any collision model can get. Most people actually understand it quite easily how & why it works. The long and repetitve collision threads do only happen because some people just do not get it for various reasons, more often than not because they do not want to.
And do you REALLY think that a "both go down" would be easier to explain:
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9027/ramotherfeen9.jpg)
Now how would you explain to that P-47 driver that he went down due to a collision???? :rofl
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Originally posted by Baine
But does this apply to bullet hits too?
It should. You should only be hit by bullets your pc observes hitting you.
If not, you are in the position of a blind man in a room trying to avoid being hit by the angry guy with the baseball bat. You can jink and run around all you want, but he's still going to hit you because you can't see what he's doing. (Of course the guy who follows you closely and peppers your plane with 20mm rounds is going to complain because he can't understand that you are flying away scot free because your machine doesn't see the damage).
A few posts back, we were told that "miracle" shots occur because his PC sees his bullets hitting your plane even though your PC doesn't see such a thing.
So which is it? And which is fair?
My feeling on the collision model in here: It's as overthought and overly complex as the ENY system and the base capture order system _ way too much 'splaining required for something that should be simple. Two planes collide, two planes go down. Like our current system, it's unfair to one person, but it's a hell of a lot easier to explain and doesn't require constant posts and replayings of the Zaprueder film of collisions to prove which is "right."
What's that sound??? Oh, I know. It's the wind whistling through the ghost town of an arena that has only a single player in it - because everyone else gave up in disgust because they would dump their whole ammo load into other aircraft and it would fly away untouched (because they couldn't guess how far they had to shoot in front of where they see it on their screen to cause the bullets to intersect with the other guys plane on his screen) and because in Baines world, colliding with another aircraft is the only way to kill it.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
In the case of a collision, I think the faster connection sees the collision first, since in theory, they should see things happen sooner, or at a lesser distance, than would the slower connection. In the case of guns, I think the lower your ping, the better off you are. You're going to have shots fired and packets otw to the server before the other guy's get there, even if he fires at the same moment or even slightly before you do.
Brain hurteds.
Nop, it should be the same for both. The slow connection is also sending slow to the server, so no matter how fast you are, you can only see what he sends you as fast as he send you. The 250ms queue at the server could make up some of the slowness too.
In the case of shooting planes, the guy on your 6 always has the advantage no matter how slow or fast the connection is. The only thing that changes is how old is the info that you see, but he also has the same problem. The difference between the two realities gets bigger and that can lead to some interesting action. In a case like Elfies, you could both end up on each others six and both end up going WTF? I shot you and I explode? :rofl
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Does the server queue the packets?
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Does the server queue the packets?
It could but that would not be the most efficient way. It does queue information though. For about, you guessed it, 250ms. If it was done the smart way, it only queues information and sends the latest and greatest position update every 250ms. It may also be queuing packets but I don;t see the point for that since the bandwidth requirements are not that high. Then again, these are just guesses based on how I think i would do it and by thinking about it for a minute or too. HTC guys are the only ones that know for sure
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We do not queue packets. And the HTC servers do not create lag into the equation.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
We do not queue packets. And the HTC servers do not create lag into the equation.
HiTech
Where is the 250ms coming from then? Unless you are talking about processing time at the server being so small that it does not effect lag. The server is sending every 250ms right?
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Originally posted by dedalos
Where is the 250ms coming from then? Unless you are talking about processing time at the server being so small that it does not effect lag. The server is sending every 250ms right?
No.
Lag is not fixed at 250ms, it is entirely based on the two player's combined lag. If I were playing with somebody who had an identical connection to myself I would typically have 140-160ms of lag. If I were playing with somebody from Australia it would be more like 500-750ms of lag.
Data flows through the internet at 40-60% of the speed of light. That is where it comes from.
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The rate at which packets are sent has nothing to do with lag. In close range planes are updated 4 times a second.
HiTech
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Originally posted by Karnak
If I were playing with somebody from Australia it would be more like 500-750ms of lag.
Its not that much from Aussie. Im from NZ, which should be similar if not slightly worse for packet latency, and i get 240-260 ms pings on DSL. Dialup would be closer to 350 or so.
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Originally posted by hitech
The rate at which packets are sent has nothing to do with lag. In close range planes are updated 4 times a second.
HiTech
Cool, thats what I thought.
Thank you
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Originally posted by Karnak
No.
Lag is not fixed at 250ms, it is entirely based on the two player's combined lag. If I were playing with somebody who had an identical connection to myself I would typically have 140-160ms of lag. If I were playing with somebody from Australia it would be more like 500-750ms of lag.
Data flows through the internet at 40-60% of the speed of light. That is where it comes from.
I think you are missing the point here. I refer to lag as the how old the information you are seeing is. It is at minimum 250ms old + your ping time. I think HT designed it this way so that it is an even playing field for people with modems, DSL, Europe, US, etc.
You are talking about ping times.
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You mis understand, 0 ping time - 0 lag, not min 250 ms
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Originally posted by Lusche
The contrary is right: The current collision model is as easy as one can ever be. Collision on your screen - you take damage. Simple & as fair as any collision model can get. Most people actually understand it quite easily how & why it works. The long and repetitve collision threads do only happen because some people just do not get it for various reasons, more often than not because they do not want to.
And do you REALLY think that a "both go down" would be easier to explain:
(http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9027/ramotherfeen9.jpg)
Now how would you explain to that P-47 driver that he went down due to a collision???? :rofl
Post a film of two planes head-oning _ the more common of the collision scenarios and the one that prompts a lot of these threads _ and then the question becomes how do you explain that both planes did not go down or at least take damage?
(and yes, I do think that a "both go down" explanation would be easier to explain. Three simple words instead of lenghty posts, accompanied by films and diagrams, trying to explain something that - given the number of repetitive posts on this board on the subject - is either poorly understood or considered unfair by quite a number of players. )
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Originally posted by Ghastly
What's that sound??? Oh, I know. It's the wind whistling through the ghost town of an arena that has only a single player in it - because everyone else gave up in disgust because they would dump their whole ammo load into other aircraft and it would fly away untouched (because they couldn't guess how far they had to shoot in front of where they see it on their screen to cause the bullets to intersect with the other guys plane on his screen) and because in Baines world, colliding with another aircraft is the only way to kill it.
Sarcasm is easy, but it doesn't answer the question, which is: Does the same logic apply to bullet damage as it does to collision damage? I don't know the answer and was hoping for a real explanation.
If it is the same in both cases, cool.
If not, why is one model OK for shooting but not for collisions? Either pilots are only responsible for damage that their computer sees, or they are not.
And if it is fair in one case, it is fair in both. If, however, it is unfair in one case, then it's unfair in both.
That seems about as simple as can be.
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Originally posted by baine1
and yes, I do think that a "both go down" explanation would be easier to explain. Three simple words instead of lenghty posts, accompanied by films and diagrams, trying to explain something that - given the number of repetitive posts on this board on the subject - is either poorly understood or considered unfair by quite a number of players.
You are wrong. Plain & simply wrong.
"Collission on YOUR screen = you take damage" is alot easier to grasp and to explain than "Yes, there was no collision on your side but his HIS screen, so you died".
It's much less rationale, even posting pics wouldn't help people understand.
And more important, it would be LESS fair: You can't dodge rams anymore. If "both go down" it would be first time that rams actualy would unfailingly work. Especially as the rammed player doesn't have a chance to doge a ram he never saw...
Originally posted by baine1
If not, why is one model OK for shooting but not for collisions?
Because they are different things...
If I would have to hit my enemy on HIS FE, this game wouldn't work anymore. I couldn't hit nobody, you couldn't hit me.
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Yes bullets work the same way and are collided only 1 one computer.