Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dos Equis on February 21, 2008, 11:36:51 AM
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Here's a litmus test for the O'Club fun gun bunch. Utah students are all going start arming themselves when attending class. Let's see how this plays out...
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/20/cnnu.guns/index.html
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As a graduate of the University of Utah, I gotta say I'm not pleased to know this going on.
*sigh* what a world we live in.
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Why, Dynamite?
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From the link above:
"But you see, that is where the problem lies: Everybody will end up carrying concealed weapons, and everyday problems will be solved with guns rather than words or even fists."
The same kinds of things are said every time another State passes a CCW law. History just doesn't support this. The Utah universities have had no problems with CCW holders since 2006 when the state supreme court struck down the ban at public universities.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Why, Dynamite?
I dunno... just makes me nervous. I'm not try'n to pick a gun debate fight today. It's just sad. It's sad that people people feel they need a gun to go to school.
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Most states allow concealed carry on campus.
Map Of States (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/20/cnnu.guns/index.html#cnnSTCOther1)
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Dynamite, if a gunman was loose on your campus, would you condemn the unarmed students to massacre? Or would you want them to be able to defend themselves? If guns aren't allowed, what do you think the chances are that the gunman will see the sign and think "Oh, this is a gun free zone, I guess I'll go shoot up a different school"?
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WTFH!?
gunz in utah!?
i know its one of the whitest states in the union, but..but..they are mostly mormons.
they cant even have sex without getting married first.
they have the temple there.
If anything mormons should be arming themselfs once they step out of utah.
(for all those missions they like to do)
HOW BIZZARE!
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If mormons start killing each other over arguements in Utah colleges, then its a sign that the comet is fast approaching earth. :cool:
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If you think they are going to have shoot outs between classes you're a dolt.
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Originally posted by Shuffler
Most states allow concealed carry on campus.
Map Of States (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/20/cnnu.guns/index.html#cnnSTCOther1)
Umm.... what?
The map you link to shows that two states that have legislation, Utah and Colorado. And even there, UC-Boulder is an exception. Other states have legislation pending, but the majority do not.
I'm afraid that's just wrong.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
If you think they are going to have shoot outs between classes you're a dolt.
If a student on campus kills another student with a gun in the next couple of years, are we free to come back here and rub your face in that quote?
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Originally posted by Dos Equis
If a student on campus kills another student with a gun in the next couple of years, are we free to come back here and rub your face in that quote?
Only if it takes place more then one time and the gun was legal. I am not worried about it.
;)
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This arguement annoys the hell out of me, especially coming from old men who'm have been out of college for decades, if they even went at all...
I get what you guys are saying, but you just have this attitude that life is a war zone, and its you vs. everyone else. How many University's are in the United States? Over 30,000? How many shootings have there been in the past year? 5 or 6? I'd say college campus's are pretty damn safe. As I recent graduate of college, I would have been very much against 10 guys (or girls) carrying hand guns to my chem, poli sci and english classes.
"If only more people carried guns, then we could have shot dead the senile 85 year old driver before he lost control of his car and plowed into a crowd of people".
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why are you afraid of guns?
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Originally posted by cav58d
How many University's are in the United States? Over 30,000?
Actually it's less than 2000
Originally posted by cav58d
How many shootings have there been in the past year? 5 or 6?
One is too many.
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Originally posted by cav58d
This arguement annoys the hell out of me, especially coming from old men who'm have been out of college for decades, if they even went at all...
I get what you guys are saying, but you just have this attitude that life is a war zone, and its you vs. everyone else. How many University's are in the United States? Over 30,000? How many shootings have there been in the past year? 5 or 6? I'd say college campus's are pretty damn safe. As I recent graduate of college, I would have been very much against 10 guys (or girls) carrying hand guns to my chem, poli sci and english classes.
"If only more people carried guns, then we could have shot dead the senile 85 year old driver before he lost control of his car and plowed into a crowd of people".
Guess what. Life is a War. Those that survive are those that are capable of defending themselves. Let's use a comparison to demonstrate it.
The United States military power is a representative for concealed carry. Sure, people sometimes try to mess with them, but nothing really major.
The French, on the other hand, are a representative for no concealed carry. French, being the pansies they are, are not armed or capable of defending themselves. Pretty much anyone who wants to rolls over France. Including a middle school Chorus from south texas like that recent news story.
All kidding aside, it has been proven time and time again that when guns start to be carried concealed, crime has gone DOWN. It has also been shown that the CCW holders are the most law abiding group of people.
The real problem here is that you apparently don't trust yourself to carry a gun. Classic psychology aside including projection, and basic sexual insecurities, when you say that other people will go "Wild Wild West" what you really mean is that you think YOU would go "Wild Wild West." And your noodle is small.
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Originally posted by cav58d
This arguement annoys the hell out of me, especially coming from old men who'm have been out of college for decades, if they even went at all...
So if it came out of a recent college grad, would it be okay? 'Cause I'll oblige.
Originally posted by cav58d
I get what you guys are saying, but you just have this attitude that life is a war zone, and its you vs. everyone else. How many University's are in the United States? Over 30,000? How many shootings have there been in the past year? 5 or 6? I'd say college campus's are pretty damn safe. As I recent graduate of college, I would have been very much against 10 guys (or girls) carrying hand guns to my chem, poli sci and english classes.
It's not me vs everyone else, but someday if it's me vs. crazy homicidal guy with a deathwish, I'll help him on his way. By your logic (that school killings are statistically insignificant), let's take the opposite view and look at how many CCW permit holders have gone postal, have tried to settle a barfight with their CW, or have otherwise done one of those terrible things that the hand-wringing types are so afraid of... can you even name one? Face it, CCW holders are one of the most law-abiding demographics out there.
Originally posted by cav58d
"If only more people carried guns, then we could have shot dead the senile 85 year old driver before he lost control of his car and plowed into a crowd of people".
You learn that handy-dandy straw man technique at your university, too?
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Actually it's less than 2000
One is too many.
If we can just save ONE person. The law will be worth it
Thing is.
Even if thee is just 1.
We dont know how many were prevented because someone who might play copycat Didnt because everyone else was armed too.
Might have 1.
But it also might have prevented 5 others.
but because they didnt happen. we wont know
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Originally posted by john9001
why are you afraid of guns?
it's not the guns it's some of the morons whom own them..
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When my dad was a kid, he took his .22 rifle to school so he could go hunting as he walked home.
Nobody thought it was horrible: a 10 yr old with a gun.
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I'm not afraid of guns at all...I've been around them since I was a child, and plan to become an owner sometime before the end of the year. I just don't want them in a class room. I really don't care how law-abiding someone is. Whether its concealed or not, if a campus allows students to arm themselves, word will get out, and it brings un-needed attention and diversion, and even anxiety within some into the class room.
And I don't see the difference in this issue and the point I raised earlier, of shooting dead a senile 85 year old driver about to crash? A drunk driver...Someone running a red light creating a fatal accident?
And goodluck with that war of yours sailor...And regarding your size comment? Well i'm sure you have seen your fair share, so hats off to you expert.
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Sure is funny that over 100 years ago everyone could carry a gun with them anywhere and there was alot less murders and shootings as compared to current times with all the strict gun laws we have.
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Originally posted by cav58d
I really don't care how law-abiding someone is. Whether its concealed or not, if a campus allows students to arm themselves, word will get out, and it brings un-needed attention and diversion, and even anxiety within some into the class room.
But your alright with campus cops running around with a gun? I know alot of people that have guns that I would trust more than some campus cops I've met.
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Originally posted by Tango
But your alright with campus cops running around with a gun? I know alot of people that have guns that I would trust more than some campus cops I've met.
Those evil cops..........
And yes...I worked closely with, and met a large portion of my University's Police Department, and have full confidence in them to do their job. I trust them a lot more than the average 18-22 year old walking around campus, who did a six hour training class, and submitted an application to the police department to carry a gun and play hero.
And are you really going to compare 1908 to 2008? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by cav58d
And are you really going to compare 1908 to 2008? :rolleyes:
http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/tables/hmrttab.htm
1903 had 1.1 homicides per 100,000. The lowest in the 20th century. I'm also pretty sure there were alot more people toting guns back then than there are now.
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No offense to the british players but look what Great Britain has become......a strict gun law policy and a absolutly terrible crime rate. They have almost banned gun ownership completely and while gun crimes went down, blunt force trauma has skyrocketed!
Here it is in a few short words
No guns.......more crime.
More guns.......less crime.
What is so hard to understand? Its old, over used, and a little corny but if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns!
This is mainly talking about legal weapons and people with rights to own firearms. I am all for enforcement of logical gun laws.
(Unlike California who banned AR-15s because they looked evil when any semi-automatic gun is just as lethal as another.)
P.S. Has California fell off the map yet?
Strip(er)
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If allowing handgun carry on campus saves more lives than destroys then they should be allowed. This should be a simple matter of arithmetic, not an emotional fear fest.
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Originally posted by Tango
http://www.ojp.gov/bjs/glance/tables/hmrttab.htm
1903 had 1.1 homicides per 100,000. The lowest in the 20th century. I'm also pretty sure there were alot more people toting guns back then than there are now.
I really don't see the relevance. Different society, different weapons, and a hell of a lot different people arming themselves, for a lot different reasons.
Look, I have no problem with gun ownership. In fact, I encourage it. I just don't agree with them being in an academic class room.
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Originally posted by cav58d
I really don't see the relevance. Different society, different weapons, and a hell of a lot different people arming themselves, for a lot different reasons.
Look, I have no problem with gun ownership. In fact, I encourage it. I just don't agree with them being in an academic class room.
I have no problem with campuses being gun free. Fact is, campuses have become targets of those who are unhappy with the hand life has dealt them and want to make others share their unhappiness. I'd be happy if everyone in the world treated everyone else like they wanted to be treated. Then there would be no need for guns for other than hunting. However, the unpleasant fact is that this world just ain't that way.
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Originally posted by cav58d
Those evil cops..........
And yes...I worked closely with, and met a large portion of my University's Police Department, and have full confidence in them to do their job. I trust them a lot more than the average 18-22 year old walking around campus, who did a six hour training class, and submitted an application to the police department to carry a gun and play hero.
And are you really going to compare 1908 to 2008? :rolleyes:
Those who would be carrying would be 21 and over and would have already gotten their license. They protect your pansy bellybutton everywhere else in the US. How is a college classroom different? Do you get anxiety over the fact that maybe 1/30 people you see on the street is packing?
The fact is, you don't. That is unless you've reached a level of liberal whiningdom never before seen.
Time and time again, it has been shown that Gun Free Zones aren't.
Those who are able to protect themselves will not be allowed.
And liberals will get their panties in a twist trying to figure out why less guns equals more crime.
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I'd be interested to see how many shooting there were per academic hours throughout all of the University's in the United States over the past year. Surely a lot less, than many of other spots that everyone, not just students frequent in their day to day lives.....
If the problem is so bad, and guns need to be on campus, then it should be via additional police, or security teams. With all due respect, getting a Concealed to carry permit isn't hard. Complete a couple hours of training, and go to your police station. Speaking of training....Having training on how to operate and fire a weapon is NOT the same as having training on how to operate and fire a weapon while taking fire.
So again, if it's such a problem, then hire security. Hell, I would support the University training and employing students to patrol the campus, during hours when not in class, but this is a serious business, and I hardly think going from the role of a student into clark kent in half a second is practical, or safe.
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The crime deterrent factor is most acute when no one knows who is armed.
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Originally posted by AKIron
The crime deterrent factor is most acute when no one knows who is armed.
Exactly. :)
While it would be nice if no one committed crimes, or hurt anyone else, sadly, our world is not like that. People have a inherent right to protect themselves.
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The problem is, no matter how hard you communists try, police and security will never be preventative. That is short of putting an armed policeman in EVERY Golly-geeN ROOM. When you consider how large some colleges are, it's probably a conservative estimate to say that during most days there are 600 classes going on at any given time. Probably a decent amount more at certain peak times.
Again, we come across the same problem with this that we do with every socialist program ever dreamed of, ever.
Estimate that these guards make 25,000 a year and another 20,000 in benefits, and you need to pay a cool $27.0 MILLION DOLLARS.
Because even a communist can't pull $27.0 mil out of his ass, he'd try to cut it down to a single security guard per building. My campus (a big one) has near 300 buildings.
Then we're back to 13.5 million dollars. Now assuming that a shooting isn't going to happen in front of a security guard, it could take the guard anywhere from 1-6 minutes to react. Any shooter has 1-6 minutes to do whatever he pleases, because the socialists have deemed us be unable to fight back.
Anyway you cut it, you're wrong.
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Laser...Your really out of your mind. You remind me of a whiney little baby. Maybe you should study politics and get it out of your system. You sure like to act like you have a command over it.
You are delusional if you think someone with a concealed weapon equates to saving that day. As I said earlier. The hardest part of getting a gun permit is to submit your application to your police station within 90 days of completing the 5 or 6 hours of training. What are some other prerequisites? A clean background? geeez...thats tough.
You can teach an individual how to operate a weapon. How he reacts, in a split second, under fire, with no formal training in the scenario is completely different.
And you mentioned in an earlier post that you are protecting me? How are you doing so? Whether you are or not, thanks but no thanks.
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I trust them a lot more than the average 18-22 year old walking around campus, who did a six hour training class, and submitted an application to the police department to carry a gun and play hero.
Gotta be 21 to get a CCW :)
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Cav, even these wackos that outfit themselves like rambo and go on killing sprees hope to have some measure of success before taking their own lives. They would fear getting popped before they can make their first kill if they thought every other target were possibly armed. 99.999% of the people you see every day can be trusted to safely carry a firearm. The .0001% that are wackos won't ask your permission to do so.
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You are delusional if you think someone with a concealed weapon equates to saving that day.
That very thing has happened quite a few times actually.
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Originally posted by cav58d
I In fact, I encourage it. I just don't agree with them being in an academic class room.
There is evidence of mass murder in the classroom. Is there any evidence at all that a student w/ a ccw permit committed murder or assault w/ said weapon in a class room?
What logic, exactly, led you to the conclusion that you do not think students should be allowed to CCW in class?
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
There is evidence of mass murder in the classroom. Is there any evidence at all that a student w/ a ccw permit committed murder or assault w/ said weapon in a class room?
What logic, exactly, led you to the conclusion that you do not think students should be allowed to CCW in class?
It has nothing to do with a ccw holder starting a shooting....My opinion has everything to do with his or her ability to attempt to respond, and what good it would do after a shooting starts....Equally, my problem is the attention and distraction it will bring into a classroom. The weapon doesn't need to be seen to make some people feel nervous. If your response to people feeling uneasy about an un-uniformed and un-trained stranger carrying a weapon is "well you're just a pansy" then I really feel bad for you, that you are so inept to think outside of your world, and that a lot of other people are different.
My biggest problem is that it would be a big distraction to a lot of people. And it's a distraction that they shouldn't have to deal with when they are paying upward and over 100k for an education.
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Originally posted by cav58d
It has nothing to do with a ccw holder starting a shooting....My opinion has everything to do with his or her ability to attempt to respond, and what good it would do after a shooting starts....Equally, my problem is the attention and distraction it will bring into a classroom. The weapon doesn't need to be seen to make some people feel nervous. If your response to people feeling uneasy about an un-uniformed and un-trained stranger carrying a weapon is "well you're just a pansy" then I really feel bad for you, that you are so inept to think outside of your world, and that a lot of other people are different.
My biggest problem is that it would be a big distraction to a lot of people. And it's a distraction that they shouldn't have to deal with when they are paying upward and over 100k for an education.
The possibilty of having your bellybutton shot off by someone having a bad week is a distraction. Knowing that 3 or 4 of your classmates can drop the bastard before he gets off more than a couple of rounds should provide a comfort factor.
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Originally posted by cav58d
It has nothing to do with a ccw holder starting a shooting....My opinion has everything to do with his or her ability to attempt to respond, and what good it would do after a shooting starts....Equally, my problem is the attention and distraction it will bring into a classroom. The weapon doesn't need to be seen to make some people feel nervous. If your response to people feeling uneasy about an un-uniformed and un-trained stranger carrying a weapon is "well you're just a pansy" then I really feel bad for you, that you are so inept to think outside of your world, and that a lot of other people are different.
My biggest problem is that it would be a big distraction to a lot of people. And it's a distraction that they shouldn't have to deal with when they are paying upward and over 100k for an education.
You seem to have allot of contempt for your fellow man. You know they really are not all that different from you.
You seem a bit paranoid, but I wouldn't worry about you having a gun.
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I often wonder why I can't carry my gun into the courthouse any longer.
shamus
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Originally posted by cav58d
My biggest problem is that it would be a big distraction to a lot of people. And it's a distraction that they shouldn't have to deal with when they are paying upward and over 100k for an education.
A guy in a trenchcoat wandering in with a shotgun is also a "big distraction to a lot of people." And even if it's not common, I'd bet a lot of students are very distracted by the thought as they sit in class. I'm glad you and the other nanny-staters have already decided for me that being a bit distracted by the mere possibility of a piece of steel in the room is worse than being completely defenseless when your crazy pal walks in.
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Armed guards in every class room......Oh wait..My sane side just asked me who would be targeted first.:furious Hey if the ccw types can keep a twisted handsomehunk perp on his toes Im all for it.No down side in my opinion.
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Originally posted by cav58d
It has nothing to do with a ccw holder starting a shooting....My opinion has everything to do with his or her ability to attempt to respond, and what good it would do after a shooting starts....Equally, my problem is the attention and distraction it will bring into a classroom. The weapon doesn't need to be seen to make some people feel nervous. If your response to people feeling uneasy about an un-uniformed and un-trained stranger carrying a weapon is "well you're just a pansy" then I really feel bad for you, that you are so inept to think outside of your world, and that a lot of other people are different.
My biggest problem is that it would be a big distraction to a lot of people. And it's a distraction that they shouldn't have to deal with when they are paying upward and over 100k for an education.
So really you have formed your opinion based on no data whatsoever. merely feelings.
By the way, most of the CCW people I know are neither untrained nor uninformed You are not only forming your opinion without any facts, you are forming it with misinformation. Based on your insults in your last post, I can see you're a person who would take a position and argue it for argument's sake. You have no argument to support your opinion whatsoever, merely guesses and hunches. I see no point in discussing this with you further. Feel free to respond with another insult or two and uninformed feelings.
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Originally posted by Tarmac
A sub in a miniskirt wandering in with a pair of howitzers is also a "big distraction to a lot of people." And even if it's not common, I'd bet a lot of students are very distracted by the thought as they sit in class. I'm glad you and the other nanny-staters have already decided for me that being a bit distracted by the mere possibility of a piece of artillery in the room is worse than being completely defenseless when your crazy pal walks in.
:furious
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Originally posted by Strip
No offense to the british players but look what Great Britain has become......a strict gun law policy and a absolutly terrible crime rate. They have almost banned gun ownership completely and while gun crimes went down, blunt force trauma has skyrocketed!
Here it is in a few short words
No guns.......more crime.
More guns.......less crime.
What is so hard to understand? Its old, over used, and a little corny but if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns!
So why aren't there hundreds of school and college shootings in the UK?
After all, banning guns doesn't mean the nut cases wont have guns.
What about Australia? You guys carry on about guns being banned in Australia.
After the port Arthur shootings down here , gun laws nation wide were made far stricter, a lot of people handed in a lot of guns.
Since then, not one single Australian has perpetrated or been the victim of a school or college shooting, why is that? The outlaws still have guns right?
The people are unarmed, soft targets, unable to defend themselves.
Saying 'but look at such and such a country' just doesn't cut it in this case.
Educational facility massacres are a predominantly American problem and have far less to do with the legality or availability of firearms than it does with the fact that the perpetrators are American, the product of American society.
You are barking up the wrong tree, look at why they do it, not at what they use to do it.
It's not the guns people, it's the people holding them that are the problem.
PS, please don't take all that as a jab at the US, that is not how I meant it.
I am merely saying that the right to keep and bear arms is not the real heart of the issue, it is not what causes, nor even allows these massacres to happen, so arguing about that particular right is pointless.
It's not about gun ownership or crime rates in various countries, it's all about Americans killing each other, in America, in places that should be as safe a place to be as anywhere.
Banning guns isn't going to fix that, nor is arming students.
You are merely dancing around the true problem without ever looking it in the eye, or, for many, even accepting that it exists.
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Originally posted by Strip
No offense to the british players but look what Great Britain has become......a strict gun law policy and a absolutly terrible crime rate. They have almost banned gun ownership completely and while gun crimes went down, blunt force trauma has skyrocketed!
Here it is in a few short words
No guns.......more crime.
More guns.......less crime.
What is so hard to understand? Its old, over used, and a little corny but if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns!
This is mainly talking about legal weapons and people with rights to own firearms. I am all for enforcement of logical gun laws.
(Unlike California who banned AR-15s because they looked evil when any semi-automatic gun is just as lethal as another.)
P.S. Has California fell off the map yet?
Strip(er)
Remember, Ruger Mini-14's are still legal to buy in California:
(http://www.marplerifleandpistolclub.org.uk/pictures/rugr762a.jpg)
Mini-14's don't look evil at all. They are nice, good guns, unlike the AR-15.
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I can see Cav's point of view and understand it. It is good to discuss these things and hear differing viewpoints. I'm just thinking that if a student carries a gun, has a permit, is responsible, keeps the gun concealed and doesn't show it or announce he has a gun, then there would be no problems or distractions.
The problematical area would be if an inexperienced person just went out and bought a gun and carried it, perhaps without knowing how the weapon operates. I'm not sure how often that happens, so I couldn't say it would or wouldn't be a problem in the big picture. If they had a permit I would think they were responsible enough to learn how to operate the weapon and learn the rules concerning safety.
I believe most people who carry are responsible, and would keep the gun concealed and be mindful of it at all times. The main point is, if the gun was concealed then I wouldn't be distracted or uncomfortable. The burden would be on the carrier to keep the weapon concealed.
If the professors carried concealed it wouldn't bother me. Then again, the key word here is concealed. I believe any professor choosing to carry would know what they were doing. If a casual observer can see if someone is carrying, then at least in a classroom environment, I believe it would tend to distract.
Back in the 70s when I was in college, there was a guy down the dorm hall who I knew had a .45. Now he was a boisterous sort and drank a lot. It never bothered me he had a gun. Actually felt kinda good knowing he was there if we needed him and his .45. I'm sure there were a couple others who had firearms. It was never a problem and they weren't the sort to go around looking for trouble or to show off their guns. They had 'em but I never saw 'em because they just didn't show them around. They may have mentioned they had one. I never thought of it as a big deal. It is fairly normal to not be surprised about something like that around these parts. Almost everyone has a firearm or grew up around firearms. Most folks learn early on to respect firearms. This reduces accidents a lot.
Students have probably been carrying all along and no one has noticed it because they didn't advertise. Gun free zones should never have been created because they just don't work. If we got back to having trust in the basics of individual responsibility, I believe most things people are fearful of would prove to be non-existent problems.
Les
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Mis-handling is fixed by proper training. I wouldn't be worried by it. If someone is mis-handling their CCW, I'd point out what's wrong with what they're doing.. Either they'd work to fix it, or I'd point it out to the cops or whoever is in charge.
Either the guy fixes his problems then and there under the pressure of authorities, or he gets his CCW and permit revoked.. Really not something to dread any more than dreading old folks at the steering wheel.
And I agree with "concealed" being the critical factor.
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Let's say that everyone at some school is armed. When a lunatic attacks the school and starts shooting, the student(s) return fire.
Now, let's say a student at the end of a hallway sees another student shooting at someone. How will he know if the defending shooter is not the lunatic?
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That's what training is for. And you don't hand out CC guns to someone who can't manage trigger itch like that... You're really getting down to hair splitting at this point Ripley. It's far better for that hesitant student to be armed than not, even in that situation.
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While I can see the point that Cav brings up about not wanting guns in the classroom, I am a vigorous proponent of the right to self defense, no matter what the location is. I don't care if it's your home, school, car, a store, park etc, you have the right to defend yourself against criminals.
I did a bit of research on the Gun Free Zones. The gun free zones were created in 1990 by the Gun Free Zones Act of 1990 which was enacted as section 1702 of the crime control act of 1990.
Prior to the Gun Free Zones Act, there were 10 mass school shootings from 1966 to 1989, 23 years. An average of 1 school shooting every 2.3 years.
After the Gun Free Zones Act was passed in 1990, there have been 37 school shootings from 1991 to 2008. (There were no school shootings in 1990.) In 17 years there were 37 shootings for an average of just over 2 shootings per year.
Before schools were made gun free zones we had mass shootings but they were far less frequent than they have been since schools were made gun free zones.
Our schools, elementary, middle, high school and college campuses should be one of the places where a person can feel safe. Right now I don't think that is the case with all these lunatics going to the various schools and shooting as many people as they can.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Now, let's say a student at the end of a hallway sees another student shooting at someone. How will he know if the defending shooter is not the lunatic?
he probably wont unless he's psychic or he knows every other ccw student well enough to quickly evaluate a situation they are both in and dismiss them as a threat. and how likley is that?..how many students are in the average american university?
it really does sound like a job for the cops or at least trained guards
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cav may be right... after all.. he does know college people...
Maybe they are the only group in the US who are so immoral and so stupid that they can't handle a concealed carry permit.. so what if CCW holders don't cause problems anywhere else? most places are not filled with mush head college students right?
Maybe it is the school? maybe it exudes some gas that destroys the power of normally law abiding CCW holders to think? It sure does appear that the gas in question robs the mush head kids and their teachers of the ability to reason.
This board it proof... oh wait.. proof sucks.. but.. I think we can all "feel" it.
dos equis and the others who are gleefully awaiting a CCW holder to get into a shootout over not getting enough pudding at the cafeteria are doomed to dissapointment..
I guess we can rub it in that no shootings as predicted have happened today.
As for not being any use... CCW is the only way.. in almost every shooting everywhere.. someone says.. "if I would have had my gun I had a clear and easy shot at the guy" in a lot of cases.. they not only said it but did have a gun and did end the problem.
I guess school kids were better.. better human model.. reverse evolution.. I too carried a 22 rifle to school and the school bussed me and the other kids to the range where the NRA trained us in marksmanship and... GUN SAFETY
now.. explain to me how not letting the NRA train kids in gun safety is making us safer.
I would love to know that some of my grand daughters excellent teachers were carrying concealed.. the thought that nothing but chance is saving her now does not sit well with me.
lazs
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lots of talk about CCW in here, some by people that have no knowledge of what CCW means. I have a CCW, so i do know.
concealed carry means that the gun shall be carried in a way that the average person will not notice you are carrying it. That is the LAW. No one is nervous when i carry a gun, they can't see it and i don't tell them.
concealed means concealed.
As for ease of getting a permit i beg to differ, you don't just walk into a police station and pick it up, not in Florida anyway.
Lack of training? I am a former Marine, i have more than a "couple of hours training".
anti-gun people always say,"i grew up around guns", yeah, when your moma walked you past the gun display at walmart.
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You can't say that allowing guns on campus in the hands of CCW holders would cause a problem because the evidence is not there.
You can point out however that since the gun free zone act.. there has been more than a tripling of shootings.. I predicted as much back then...
can I rub their noses in it? Somehow.. with all those kids dying.. I can't take glee from it.. just anger.
lazs
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You can point out however that since the gun free zone act.. there has been more than a tripling of shootings..
Lazs, 18 of those shootings have happened in the last 5 years alone. Since the gun free zones were created not a single year has gone by w/o at least one school shooting. The problem has steadily gotten worse since the gun free zones were created.
I have a 13 yr old daughter in middle school right now. My 4 yr old daughter will be starting school next year. I want them to be safe and the gun free zones just aren't cutting it.
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After reading some of my past comments, considering comments made by all of you, and putting some more serious thought into it, my position has slightly bent.
At the end of the day, obviously staying alive far outweighs some of the negative reprecussions, such as the anxiety and un-needed attention a weapon would bring to a class room. I would support certain individuals (students) and their right to conceal a weapon in a class room under certain conditions.
What comes to mind would be full disclosure and approval by the University Police Department. Notifying the Police Department when the weapon is being carried; whether you carry it every day, or once a semester...Every day the weapon is concealed and in a class room, you most notify the police.
Most importantly, I would support this only after the carryer (sp) sucessfully completes additional weapon training, and re-currency (possibly every 60 days) to be granted permisson to carry the weapon.
Under these circumstances, I would support students carrying concealed weapons in a class room. But only under these conditions. Any moron can get a gun. The basic training required and the background check are not hard to pass, and I don't think they suffice for the additional training, and re-current training I think would be needed to be effective in the situation.
And i'm sure that most of you are extremely responsible gun owners. Because you are so responsible, and maybe most of the people around you are as well, it might be hard to realize, that for every responsible weapon owner...There will always be another freaking retard with a gun, whether carrying his weapon is legal or not.
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Originally posted by AKIron
If allowing handgun carry on campus saves more lives than destroys then they should be allowed. This should be a simple matter of arithmetic, not an emotional fear fest.
I don't disagree about guns on campus, however, I don't think anyone really should follow the arithmetic argument.
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Don’t know about the rest of you, But back in high school we did not have this silly gun free zone, We had a large number of hunters that would keep there guns in the car and go out hunting after school.
A number of teachers used to keep the rifles in the closet and would even take them off new guns when they bought them, as well as talk about good hunting spots and shooting in general. Never had any problem with shootings.
Anyone that takes the time to get a ccw should be able to carry it into ANY public building. Most people wont take the time to get them.
Will this reduce the number of shooting at schools? Of course not.
But what it may do is reduce the impact those shooters have at the school.
Guns don’t prevent crime. It is a silly argument.
Guns prevent the escalation of that crime
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Guns don’t prevent crime. It is a silly argument.
Actually.....according to DoJ figures firearms, or more accurately, the mere prescence of firearms prevent anywhere from 1.5 to 3 million crimes per year. In the vast majority of instances the firearm is never discharged.
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Not to be a pain in the ass, But could you post a link?, Would like to see how they define prevent. and how they get the numbers
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The bad thing is, Since CCW isn't as widespread, And most people go unarmed, It's really all going on theory. The gov't. would really have to just try it out for awhile, and see how it works.
Of course, you have a pretty strong anti-gun lobby in congress at any given time, anymore. Implementing widespread CCW usage is going to be confined to the willing, as well. You would have to take a poll, and see exactly how many students' would be willing to carry, given the means. Then, you might be able to get some idea of it's effectiveness.
And also remember, It would have to come down as some sort of Federal mandate. Individual schools' still maintain the power of whether or not a person can carry on their campus, proper CCW certs' or not. If Hillary or Obama wins' the election, I doubt we'll see any such thing, at least for 4 to 8 years.
Hell, we've had 8 years' of Republistudmuffins, and they had all the things' during Clintons' term (Columbine, anyone?) And they didn't do diddly, just ignored the problem.
Btw, Bluedog, what you are describing isn't really a problem with american schools, but our Modern culture/society as a whole. We'd really have to start another thread on the fabric of 2008 America to sort that out.
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Originally posted by Trell
Not to be a pain in the ass, But could you post a link?, Would like to see how they define prevent. and how they get the numbers
I don't have the link handy and the DoJ website is a pain in the butt to navigate imo.
I think part of how they arrive at those numbers is people who report the attempted crimes.
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Originally posted by SIG220
Remember, Ruger Mini-14's are still legal to buy in California:
(http://www.marplerifleandpistolclub.org.uk/pictures/rugr762a.jpg)
Mini-14's don't look evil at all. They are nice, good guns, unlike the AR-15.
Why do you need a scope just to spray into a crowd?... Or are you contimplating a tower sniper spree?
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cav.. I salute you for looking at the facts and then changing.. or at least modifying your preconcieved opinion.
There is hope for the young.
lazs
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trell.. I would agree that guns do more to negate the damage than to prevent it but I think the evidence supports that they do go a ways in preventing.
Burglaries in the US are very few in occupied homes but over 50% in say england. Interviews with hardened violent criminals all have the same results.. they are always more afraid of a citizen with a gun than the cops.
where you are correct tho is that there is a small percent of sociopaths and nutters who will never be deterred.. only stopped once they start.
In either case.. a gun in the hand of the good guys always works..
many of the shooters kill themselves at just the arrival of armed people (police).. they would do so if shot at from cover by a CCW holder. In the most recent Co. shooting.. the shooter was hit by a citizen and then just shot himself. It would seem reasonable that he would have killed dozens, perhaps more.. if not for a gun in the hands of a civilian. He probly had the most target rich environment so far and some of the best tools and the most ammo.
Instead.. he shot two going in and then never shot another..
I like that outcome much better than what would have happened.
lazs
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Holden.. many ruger and other scope mounts are "see through" type.. you can use the peep sights or the scope. Guess if I was a nutter wanting to kill I would go with the see through scope option.
lazs
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It wouldn't matter if the mounts holding that scope on were completely see through Lazs, the objective lens pretty much touches the barrel.
Only way you are gonna see anything the other side is by looking through it.
Too much scope for the rifle by far, can see all kinds of stuff way out there that it will never hit, the barrel isnt much longer than the scope.
The only conceivable benefit of that scope on that rifle would be low light shots, and the short barrel with no flash suppressor means you better make sure the first one is bang on, 'cause after that you aint seeing jack but retina burn.
Not enough barrel for sniping and for home defense ranges the loss of peripheral vision outweighs any benefit gained by having the scope.
Looks cool though I guess. Needs a folding stock, bipod and bayonet lug to go with it, laser dot too. 200 round snail mag, chrome fore grip, underslung MagLite.....:rolleyes:
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Btw, Bluedog, what you are describing isn't really a problem with american schools, but our Modern culture/society as a whole. We'd really have to start another thread on the fabric of 2008 America to sort that out.
I would love to seriously discuss that Frode, I am genuinely interested in why these sort of things happen, particularly why they happen so much in America and not so much in other Western countries with similar cultures, like Australia and the UK.
The same opportunity for such shootings exists, yet, so far they haven't eventuated. Granted firearms access is more limited here, but they certainly aren't absolutely unavailable .
What is different in the lives of these killers that makes them do such things?
We have nutcases down here too, some are in college or university and have access to firearms. Why do we not see this happen everywhere?
Is there something preventing it, or has the idea just not occurred to English and Australian nutters yet?
Most importantly, what can be done to ensure it DOESN'T happen here?
What can be done to make sure it never happens in the USA again?
Is there some common factor in all these shootings, something identifiable that may give some warning in the future, something that might give some idea of what these kind of people are up to before they start pulling the trigger on a room full of innocent people?
Innocent kids damn it, college kids, the hope and heart of our future.
Thats the bit that gets me, and scares me, that for all I can see, there is nothing stopping it from happening here, or the UK, or again in the US., or Canada, or anywhere else.
And the people who are dieing are among the cream of the crop, it's not like it is rehab clinics getting shot up here.
Why schools? Why mostly America? Can we stop it?
I don't think banning guns is a good idea, and I'm not sure arming everyone is either.
Is there an answer? Or is it sad and shocking but inevitable, and all we can do is wait for it to happen again.
I agree, probably better left to a thread of it's own, but as one of those dang foreign types, I'm a bit cautious about starting any threads around here that may be perceived as in any way anti- American.
Touchy crowd with that these O'Clubbers.
I may like having a light hearted dig at you guys in less serious threads, but it would be pretty poor form to make light of this.
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bluedog.. you are correct about the scope on the mini shown. On mine.. the scope is fixed 4 power with a small tube and no bell to speak of.. All the scope you need on a mini 14.. more than you need probly. I can see the sights quite clearly through (or, more accurately, around) the scope.
You are correct to assume it is a touchy subject here. we do not trust our government.. we have a history of it.. this is some stange thinking to other "civilized" countries who trust theirs. We are also more individualistic than any other nation. We also have one of the most if not the most vibrant societies with about the most diversification of race and culture and language of any nation.. certainly, far more than any other western socialist country.
We are touchy about our right to keep and bear arms. We feel it is what sets us apart.. what separates us from the "subjects" of other nations. It is like the touchiness that some of the other western posters here get when you call them socialists I suppose.. debate decays into anger.
We see no reason that a government should not trust us with guns. The very idea makes us trust them less. We also want to take care of ourselves without their help.. this is the individualism I spoke of.
A fundamental change in our nature is what we would need and I hope that never happens.
lazs
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'Tis a horrible truth... I wonder if, one day, we can advance into an epoch when disputes are settled with words and work rather than with weapons and woe.
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
'Tis a horrible truth... I wonder if, one day, we can advance into an epoch when disputes are settled with words and work rather than with weapons and woe.
peace is the dream of the wise, war is the history of man.
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Originally posted by lazs2
We also want to take care of ourselves without their help.. this is the individualism I spoke of.
lazs
When Stacy was pregnant w/ our sextuplets, many people we encountered asked us about what free stuff we were getting, govt assistance, etc.
Many of them were surprised that my answer was always something like: "No, we haven't received a dime. These kids are our responsiblity and we will take care of them ourselves."
some people said I was foolish or an "idiot" for not having my hand out.
*shrug*
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Why do you need a scope just to spray into a crowd?... Or are you contimplating a tower sniper spree?
You have totally misunderstood my post. I would never personally own a Mini-14 rifle myself. They are a piece of junk in my opinion. I was simply pointing out the utter hypocrisy of the California gun ban law, which bans sales of the AR-15, yet allows the Mini-14 to still be sold in the state.
I mainly use my AR-15 assault rifles to make small furry animals explode. When dealing with a large number of targets running around a field, having a semiautomatic weapon is a big advantage over a bolt action rifle. I usually use a 20 round magazine when hunting, which holds 4 times the amount of shells that my bolt action varmint rifle can be loaded with. The varmints are such small targets and are often shot at very long range. So I have very extremely powerful telescopic sights on all my Varmint killers, as you can see here in this photo of my Colt AR-15:
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/ar-151a.jpg)
That is way more scope power than what you saw on that Mini-14. However, such high magnification is crucial to shooting accurately, especially once your eyes get older like mine now are. I now need such magnification in order to shoot small groups.
Here is a 5 shot group done with the rifle, at 100 yards:
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/AR-15target_onlinejpg.jpg)
Sadly, I missed hitting the dime. :D
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Sadly, I missed hitting the dime.
I once hit a thumbtack at 100 yards with a Ruger M77 chambered for the Remington 7MM Magnum cartridge. I admit there was some luck involved but the fact remains that I did hit it. :D
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Originally posted by Elfie
I once hit a thumbtack at 100 yards with a Ruger M77 chambered for the Remington 7MM Magnum cartridge. I admit there was some luck involved but the fact remains that I did hit it. :D
That is truly great shooting, especially with any type of hunting rifle like your Ruger. You definitely should never sell that gun.
3 years ago I killed a real tiny fly that was landing on my target at the rifle range. It was annoying the heck out of me, bothering me while I sighted in the rifle, a Stainless Savage Model 93 heavy barrel Varmint model in 17 HMR.
Here is the target after the 17 caliber bullet hit the fly. Note the splatter of fly guts, and the gooey remains at the top of the photo.
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/hunting/targetwider.jpg)
And here is a photo of the rifle, which I have since upgraded with a nice new custom stock from Savage Shooters Supply:
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/newstock4_online.jpg)
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Originally posted by Elfie
I once hit a thumbtack at 100 yards with a Ruger M77 chambered for the Remington 7MM Magnum cartridge. I admit there was some luck involved but the fact remains that I did hit it. :D
nice shot.
My uncle did that to me when I was a kid. He had a .22 pistol and we set up some targets for me to shoot about 30 feet away. He wanted to show me how it shot so he fired one round, dead center bullseye. He handed me the gun, said: "That's how you do it.", then went into the house. I had a hard time even hitting the target that far off.
It was only years later he admitted it was total luck. Of course I spent those years in total awe of his shooting prowess.