Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on February 21, 2008, 08:06:11 PM
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Florida, what the hell is going on?
http://www.local6.com/news/15232197/detail.html?related
Clearly a violation of the 4th amendment. What do they do when you say "no thanks"?
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I dont think its a problem as long as they inform them of their rights and it's voluntary. And any DNA evidence they collect is used only for the purpose of finding this serial killer, if its not a match it needs to be destroyed not saved for future uses or a "DNA database". But If there is even a hint of corersion though I suspect that if they do find a match it could get thrown out of court, and you can bet that some lawyer could make an argument for corersion just in the fact that it was a traffic stop or a prostution sting.
I think they're wasting their time though, if its voluntary and the serial killer refuses to give a sample then, whatever,...they just missed him... and if its not voluntary, well they just went out of bounds and the games over
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Its says "persons of interest". It all depends on the stink raised by the community over it. Clearly the Police cant go around grabbing DNA for no reason.
"Persons of interest" usually means a known person that the Police are looking for. Here it sounds like they are collecting DNA based on a generic description, which probably wouldnt stand up as Constitutional. But due to the severity of the crime, and knowing Floridians, I'll bet the Police just dont care. Nor does the community.
I'll leave it to the Lawyers and Liberals to be "shocked and outraged". I just want them to catch the guy.
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Of course if its just "persons of interest" then is taking a DNA swap any different than fingerprints? What if all they had was a couple of fingerprints and nothing to match it to. Everybody they stopped or picked up someone on a felony stop, or pickup during crime stings, parole violations, arrest warrants, they would fingerprint them and look for a match... I think DNA is the new fingerprint...
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Like Nancy Reagan says- Just Say No
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The description they're working off of is "a clean cut guy". That's it.
What's happening to the samples when they're done? There's no suggestion that the information is destroyed, it's far more likely that it's held onto. Let's go nuts and say this isn't a big deal right now with technology where it's at, but it's just a matter of years before large scale genetic scanning is possible and the storehouses of valuable biometric evidence can be processed into the system.
Rich46yo, the enthusiasm with which you volunteer throwing away the 4th amendment rights fought for by generations of soldiers is fascinating and, of course, your choice. I won't disrespect their sacrifices with this type of casual disregard for constitutionally defined freedom. I think this type of fishing expedition is wrong.
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If it's voluntary..so what?
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Originally posted by SirLoin
If it's voluntary..so what?
If it actually is voluntary, then I agree, so what? However, the article makes no mention of whether it is voluntary or not. If it isn't voluntary, then I think that's an entirely different matter.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
If it's voluntary..so what?
If it was voluntary and person or persons wished to have their DNA taken they could go down to HQ and request it.
"Person of interest" can cover anyone and everyone.
Another "chip" in personal freedom.
DNA testing and database storing is still so young I am just waiting for the big outbreak of DNA mistakes, contamination of DNA, etc.
It is sure to come.
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
Its says "persons of interest". It all depends on the stink raised by the community over it. Clearly the Police cant go around grabbing DNA for no reason.
"Persons of interest" usually means a known person that the Police are looking for. Here it sounds like they are collecting DNA based on a generic description, which probably wouldnt stand up as Constitutional. But due to the severity of the crime, and knowing Floridians, I'll bet the Police just dont care. Nor does the community.
I'll leave it to the Lawyers and Liberals to be "shocked and outraged". I just want them to catch the guy.
Except the article says that the persons of interest are men who are married or have a girlfriend.
They are going to have to swab a lot of men!!
THE ACLU will jump on this for sure. And when the first black man gets swabbed, the NCAA as well.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
The description they're working off of is "a clean cut guy". That's it.
What's happening to the samples when they're done? There's no suggestion that the information is destroyed, it's far more likely that it's held onto. Let's go nuts and say this isn't a big deal right now with technology where it's at, but it's just a matter of years before large scale genetic scanning is possible and the storehouses of valuable biometric evidence can be processed into the system.
Rich46yo, the enthusiasm with which you volunteer throwing away the 4th amendment rights fought for by generations of soldiers is fascinating and, of course, your choice. I won't disrespect their sacrifices with this type of casual disregard for constitutionally defined freedom. I think this type of fishing expedition is wrong.
I aint throwing nothing away, and once was one of those soldiers. I have no power over any of this, aint participating in it, and am only talking about it in a cartoon flight game forum.
You need to go down to Florida and talk high and mighty. Dont bother me with it.
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How dare you disrespect the O'Club, sir!
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DNA, huh? Taken by police? I'm sure that they are fully trained in the sterile, and non-contaminating methods of harvesting. :rofl
Day by day, our 4th amendment rights get pissed upon.. I'm sure that this is the future, albeit, the "new" fingerprint, but I'm glad I don't live in Florida. I'm also glad that I live in a Commonwealth and not a true "State".
Its bad enough that the health history of everyone in the states is on file somewhere. More reasons for the insurance companies to deny claims or coverage if they can tell what your health history is, or what it may be pan out to be from clues in your genetic code.
Everyones DNA on file, huh? Imagine the implications.
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Originally posted by SIG220
THE ACLU will jump on this for sure. And when the first black man gets swabbed, the NCAA as well.
Not all student athletes are African-Americans you know.
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Originally posted by SIG220
THE ACLU will jump on this for sure. And when the first black man gets swabbed, the NCAA as well.
Or the NAACP, but then there is basketball... so NCAA could have a dog in this fight....
Hi Myelo
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another case of chairboy paranoia IMO
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Eagler, you would consent to a random DNA collection? You're comfortable that the information wouldn't be stored and used in the future, and that it would never come into the possession of other entities like insurance companies and be used to deny you coverage based on hereditary illnesses? Are you certain it could never be used for identity theft?
DNA is intensely personal. Those swabs contain an entire genetic blueprint for you. Why would you willingly make it easy for that blueprint to be used against you at some point in the near future where that becomes practical?
I feel that looking beyond the next 5 minutes is the responsibility of every citizen. Understanding how technology progresses and recognizing that sometimes it goes in directions that aren't obvious. I may have no long term defense against this type of intrusion, but I'll be damned if I'll volunteer it and make it easy.
If they present a warrant, I'll participate, but this is (constitutionally speaking) no different than bringing in groups of random people for interrogation because maybe they committed a crime somewhere, sometime.
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I'm with chairboy on this one
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How long until there are penalties for saying no to testing? Like saying no to a breathalizer?
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My answer to this one is simple. No. Unless I am under arrest I will be leaving as soon as the citation is written and signed. If the authorities want a DNA sample it will require a court order (warrant) and I will have my attorney present during the collection to make sure the warrant is correct, then I will also challenge the warrant in court.
Red dog,
You really need to catch up with the 20th century. You need to look up implied consent in regards to DUI's. You may get a real surprise there as there are already penalties for not taking a breathalyzer or blood test.
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The last time a cop asked me "Breath, blood, or urine" I said "No thanks, I'm full"
He wasn't amused......
He gave me a written warning for having a taillight out. I was supposed to get the light fixed, have the warning signed by a licensed inspection mechanic and return it to the police station in 7 days. He then said I could go. So while he was finishing his paperwork I reached in my glove box, got a spare bulb, replaced the burned out one, signed the warning and gave it back to the cop. He informed me that I needed to have it signed by a LICENSED inspection mechanic. So I pulled out my PA State inspection license and showed it to him.
He was even less amused by that.............
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Originally posted by Maverick
You really need to catch up with the 20th century. You need to look up implied consent in regards to DUI's. You may get a real surprise there as there are already penalties for not taking a breathalyzer or blood test.
I think he was saying, "How long until there are penalties for not submitting to a DNA test just like there are penalties now for not submitting to an ethanol test."
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Originally posted by Maverick
My answer to this one is simple. No. Unless I am under arrest I will be leaving as soon as the citation is written and signed. If the authorities want a DNA sample it will require a court order (warrant) and I will have my attorney present during the collection to make sure the warrant is correct, then I will also challenge the warrant in court.
Red dog,
You really need to catch up with the 20th century. You need to look up implied consent in regards to DUI's. You may get a real surprise there as there are already penalties for not taking a breathalyzer or blood test.
Mav,
I didn't make my post clear enough. I know there are penalties for refusing a breathalyzer when pulled over. I was wondering how long before it will be before the same thing will happen if you refuse a DNA test in the same situation.
It reminds me of all the times in the Air Force where I was filling out paperwork for many of the services provided on base. They would always stress that providing your SS# was completely voluntary. but if you didn't, service would be delayed or possibly refused.
I guess it was just an observation on one more Big Brother tactic that's coming down to make us "safer". Just IMO of course.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Eagler, you would consent to a random DNA collection? You're comfortable that the information wouldn't be stored and used in the future, and that it would never come into the possession of other entities like insurance companies and be used to deny you coverage based on hereditary illnesses? Are you certain it could never be used for identity theft?
if they want it that bad...they don't have to ask you for it...just follow you to a restaurant. the fact is....we leave our DNA all over the place......
save the drama for your mama
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Originally posted by Maverick
My answer to this one is simple. No. Unless I am under arrest I will be leaving as soon as the citation is written and signed. If the authorities want a DNA sample it will require a court order (warrant) and I will have my attorney present during the collection to make sure the warrant is correct, then I will also challenge the warrant in court.
the cops would just taz you bro. you would be obstructing a police officer in the performance of their duties, or some other catch all law.
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It's not often I agree with Chairboy, but he it right on this one.
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Originally posted by ZetaNine
if they want it that bad...they don't have to ask you for it...just follow you to a restaurant. the fact is....we leave our DNA all over the place......
Well I've heard of PeeWee Herman in the movie theater, but dang, a restaurant?
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and if this prevents another murder/rape, you are still against it?
unless you have something to hide, I'd be more concerned with online identity theft
are you against state run health care too? think they'll have more than just your dna if the ho or bro wins out
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Myelo and Red Dog,
Gotcha, The coffee hadn't kicked in all the way when I was online earlier. My bad, sorry.
:o
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Originally posted by Eagler
and if this prevents another murder/rape, you are still against it?
unless you have something to hide, I'd be more concerned with online identity theft
are you against state run health care too? think they'll have more than just your dna if the ho or bro wins out
Eagler, tens of thousands of people die every year because of drunk driving accidents. Would you permit a breathalyzer to be installed in your car to prevent you from driving drunk?
Think of all the domestic violence cases, mostly battered women. If cameras were installed in every house, they would undoubtedly prevent some of these horrific child abuse and wife beatings. If it prevents EVEN ONE of these, certainly you wouldn't object to having them in your home. You don't have something to hide, do you?
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37000 people die every year in America from the flue, we need to stop this carnage.
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Originally posted by Eagler
and if this prevents another murder/rape, you are still against it?
unless you have something to hide, I'd be more concerned with online identity theft
If it prevents just one murder, rape, accident........(insert list of hand wringings here) would you give up your freedom....all of it?
It`s the precedence that it sets. Really, really dangerous.
When it comes to a totalitarian government, everyone has something to hide.
That`s how our freedom and rights are being so easily taken away as of late.
Smoke and mirrors under the disguise of one thing, but leading the way and opening the door to many, many others.
The only time freedom is free is when it is willingly given away.
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if one of the victims had been armed and trained you would not have to take the DNA of every "clean cut" male in Florida, all the cops would have to do is pick up the bad guys body and write a report.
BTW, i have a beard, so i am not a "person of interest". :D
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I live in Michigan, what do I care what go's on in Florida, no skin off my nose.
We need universal single payer national health care, if it saves one life, it's worth it.
shamus
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We already have Universal Health Care, just ask any illegal alien.
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For all of those "with nothing to hide" please post your real name, social security number, your mother's maiden name and the name of your favorite pet in this thread.
What?
No takers?
You MUST have something to hide!
Amendment IV
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Regards,
Sun (not my real name :D )
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Eagler, tens of thousands of people die every year because of drunk driving accidents. Would you permit a breathalyzer to be installed in your car to prevent you from driving drunk?
yes
as for cameras in my house - sorry, it stops at my front door. Inside my home is not the same as driving drunk in public..but you knew that.
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Originally posted by Eagler
yes
BS. Assume the position.
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Originally posted by Eagler
yes
as for cameras in my house - sorry, it stops at my front door
Why?...you doing something illegal in there?
shamus
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Originally posted by Shamus
Why?...you doing something illegal in there?
shamus
no, just don't want to make you jealous :)
Jackal
Do you drive drunk often? Don't have the change for a cab or too lazy to walk after drinking? Why would you be against something that would stop you from possibily killing an innocent when you would not be in the position to make the call yourself?
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hehe :)
shamus
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Eagler, by that logic, how do we know you're not beating your wife if you don't allow us to put cameras in your house?
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left wing, right wing.. it makes no difference once you give government your rights.. all governments are totalitarian. all governments are brutal suppressive regimes... for your own good.
lazs
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Originally posted by justguess
I'm with chairboy on this one
Same.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Eagler, by that logic, how do we know you're not beating your wife if you don't allow us to put cameras in your house?
Obviously 1984 is his ideal society!
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Originally posted by Fulmar
Obviously 1984 is his ideal society!
it is?
sorry for not being as paranoid as some of you LOL
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So... no answer then, Eagler?
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Originally posted by Chairboy
So... no answer then, Eagler?
about what? you wanting to put a camera in my house?
are you comparing a device that would stop you from driving drunk on PUBLIC roads to a camera in my PRIVATE home?
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So the bill of rights describes rights we have when we're at home, but nowhere else? Plus, you still seem to be pretty sanguine about the casual DNA testing, even though DNA contains the most accurate long term medical history of your family possible, with every hereditary trait sitting there just waiting to be read.
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I think these routine DNA swabs in Daytona are ill advised. I agree that nobody should allow anybody to officially take your DNA absent a warrant because your DNA will certainly go into a database. And on a traffic stop there is always the question of coercion. I think that any of these consent search and seizures that result in criminal charges will be vigorously challenged.
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I would suspect that giving a DNA sample (in reference to the topic) is on a strictly voluntary status, with no repercussions for refusal. IE it becomes a personal choice dictated by your beliefs.
That being said, anybody who would willingly give up ANY of thier freedoms so hardly won by thier Fathers, Grandfathers et-al, should surely have thier heads examined.
RTR
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Well, in that case, I believe......NO. Unless you feel like pulling a sample from my next bowel movement.
Besides, I am anything but clean cut.
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Originally posted by Eagler
no, just don't want to make you jealous :)
Jackal
Do you drive drunk often?
No. I also don`t have a habit of bending over every time someone suggests it.
I certainly don`t have a habit of taking personal freedom , rights and invasion of privacy lightly.
Don't have the change for a cab or too lazy to walk after drinking?
The first problem with that would be that if you were looking for a cab around here you would be on something much more powerful than spirits. :)
Why would you be against something that would stop you from possibily killing an innocent when you would not be in the position to make the call yourself?
Why not just turn your vehicles all in to the government to begin with? Geee...look at all the accidents it would prevent. Look at the lives it would save.
Why not just bend over and freely give all rights and decision making up on a personal level? Why not let the government make all of our decisions for us? I mean after all, they do know what`s best for ya......right?
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Originally posted by Eagler
about what? you wanting to put a camera in my house?
are you comparing a device that would stop you from driving drunk on PUBLIC roads to a camera in my PRIVATE home?
What are the crime rates for private homes versus public roads? I'm guessing the level of crime committed in private homes is not negligible.
I'm with chairboy on this. DNS traits are just waiting to be used for profiling. First it's taking DNA to eliminate you. Pretty soon its turned around on you to become analysis of your potential behaviour. The question you have to ask yourself is do you want to be judged on your potential behaviour traits or your actual behaviour.
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Originally posted by Airscrew
Or the NAACP, but then there is basketball... so NCAA could have a dog in this fight....
Hi Myelo
Sorry, my brain sometimes scrambles acronyms up inside. My electrical signals misfire on occasion also, and I type incorrect stuff.
This never seemed to happen when I was younger.
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whats a cab?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
whats a cab?
lazs
Not sure, but I believe it is some kind of files on the Windows system.
I`m not going to look for them though.
I`m too lazy and I don`t know how much it will cost. I don`t have any change anyway. Whatever it is, it needs to be turned over to the government. They will know what to do with it.