Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: fscott on February 27, 2001, 11:57:00 AM
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I just reloaded Warbirds for old time sake, and was impressed by its torque effects, which seem to be lacking in AH. For instance, on the ground you push the throttle forward and one side of the plane actually dips to one side or the other. I hardly see this in AH. This is especially true of the 109 series of planes. I was just wondering why this was never implemented to such great effect as it was in WB?
fscott
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Fly a Yak-9U. Try and keep her moving on down the runway without ALOT of rudder input..
FYI, just because WB's torque does one thing and AH another does not mean one or the other is correct.
-Westy
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I know that. I'm just asking, the effect feels very real and amazing to me since it's been so long since I've flown WB. For old time's sake, start up WB, get a 109g6, and fire up the engine. Then push the throttle forward and feel how the torque literally rolls that thing into the dirt.
This bothers me. I've asked HT about it but he seems to think that everything is modelled correct. I disagree, because he also modelled WB torque effects, so at some point he thought it was correct when programming WB? Big engines like the PW 2800 series should most definatley cause this tremendous torque pull. Just go try em on WB, then come back and tell me what you think.
fscott
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Using games to compare the authenticity/realistic portrayal of how a plane flies? That's rediculous, it's like saying "well the Fighter Ace P51 flies this way, so the AH/WB/AW P51 should fly this way too..."
Use real world numbers and data to compare against AH's numbers and data, that'll get the problem more attention.
-SW
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Sometimes you add a little spice to put more flavor on a dish. AH BETA had a helluva lot more spice in regards to torque then 1.05 has.
I hope that at some point HT can add a little of the spice he has taken out since 1.03
Yeager
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LOL same old apples and oranges being compared, the point where every fanatic's(not calling you a fanatic Fscott) argument breaks down when arguing one sim is better than the other such as 'Brand X does Y so much better than Brand Z' Like AK said come back with real-life data confirming one of the two sims is correct and then we can ask HT to change it or break out the pom poms because its spot on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I never said that AH should model after WB. I am asking why WB has such tremendous torque whereas AH almost has a lack of any torque at all. Additionally, I stated that it feels more believable in WB. And I tend to believe WB's torque effects over AH current rendering.
fscott
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"because he also modelled WB torque effects, so at some point he thought it was correct when programming WB"
Sure. But WB's was also a "first" effort and you (not just you but alot of folks in general really) are not giving HiTech alot of credit in thinking he cannot do better. Alot of what he did then he might be doing different and maybe even better now.
On the other hand, since his WB's days he's also flown a P-51 and I might wonder if that might have had some influence on what he thinks is right.
FWIW, I enjoyed the heavy torque effects of the "old" days. Especially the Tiffie. But there's plenty there still.
-Westy
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Again, you are still comparing two computer simulated aerodynamic models. You need to get the data of the real world counterparts and test it against the in game rendering of these effects. Otherwise saying "but it just doesn't feel..." is like saying "it doesn't feel like I'm inverted" when you are in fact playing a game and flying inverted.
-SW
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Originally posted by Westy:
[BFYI, just because WB's torque does one thing and AH another does not mean one or the other is correct.
[/B]
Nevermind....just reread Westys post and looks like I misread it originally. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ok Westy...you may pass (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Ding
[This message has been edited by Dingy (edited 02-27-2001).]
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Originally posted by Dingy:
Since you have two different effects for the same phenomenon, ONE of them has to be incorrect (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Or, of course, they could both be incorrect. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-- Todd/DMF
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*PUNT*
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YEAH! Where is ppit..err Torque, god how I love HO'n him in WB, and now AH is lacking him........a sad day for AH til he comes back. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Originally posted by fscott:
on the ground you push the throttle forward and one side of the plane actually dips to one side or the other. I hardly see this in AH
Fscott,
The difference you observe may have nothing to do with modelling of torque. It may just mean that either WB or AH does not model the landing gear compression correctly. That is hardly a very important point for the game as a whole because most of the time you are in the air and that is where torque really matters. The yawing effects on the ground are very pronounced in AH.
Does it seem realistic that a plane standing still on the ground (with ALL its weight resting on the gear) would have enough torque to actually lift one side into the air? Or compress it that noticably? May be, especially with its narrow 109 gear.
miko
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No one has mentioned it,....if you have "combat-trim" enabled,the effects of torque are highly diminished.
Not that any of you would have it enabled,..just thought I would mention it.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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I have not flown any WW2 aircraft, but I do fly real airplanes and a 180HP engine causes a considerably large amount of what we call left turning tendency, even though it is a Tricycle landing gear and not conventional,which makes these effects more noticeble in the ground.
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Of course performance of each aircraft and aerodynamically speaking or the way the air behaves around the structure of the plane differ from what I fly, I imagine it took a great amount of effort to maintain coordinated flight in high AoA at high power settings. Before it was close to authentic it took great concentration specially in 109s to land the planes and once you were about to land you had to make sure you accomplished that landing since putting the throttle all the way forward could flip your aircraft and endanger be it your virtual or real life. This probably has been mentioned before but many people died in training due to the torque effects in slow flight. You could say trimming might help you relieve some of the correction but it will still be considerable that you require moving the flight controls to correct this IMO this could make vertical flight as some pilot said "you meet another kind of people in the vertical".
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
-----15 Spanische Staffel----
Tis not important how one goes,but who goes with you.
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Ugh.. dont pick on 109 please...
In the past it had a super torque that kept it from flying level with autopilot.
you had to be at least 250mph for autopilot to keep from drifting.
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Hmmm.
It seems like the little Cessna 152 I was flying (prepping for my checkride, woohoo) today has worse torque / stall manners than most the planes I fly in here.
First I'd like to see worse consequences from uncoordinated stalls. Then we can talk about torque effects.
But yeah, the torque effects should be worse (but not much worse.) I've seen a well balanced (i.e. well coordinated) Marchetti do a power-on stall and instantly spin like a top.
Still, having said all that, I like the lower torque effects in AH over the killer effects in WB. Less realistic, but way more fun.
~Lemur
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I would have to agree. When I first started with AH, I loved the touque in the FM and found it challenging to fly. I said to myself, wow this is even more realistic in feeling that WB. Cool. I would personally like to see the torque effects return to the FM.
Perhaps AH could have some FM settings such as:
Enable torque effects.
Enable etc...
-- senna
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In regards to what I fly it is an Archer III Lycoming engine 180HP lo wing.
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
-----15 Spanische Staffel----
Tis not important how one goes,but who goes with you.
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Originally posted by senna:
I would have to agree. When I first started with AH, I loved the touque in the FM and found it challenging to fly. I said to myself, wow this is even more realistic in feeling that WB. Cool. I would personally like to see the torque effects return to the FM.
Perhaps AH could have some FM settings such as:
Enable torque effects.
Enable etc...
-- senna
More torque really would be nice, when I hardly notice any torque...
there could be also more E bleed, I think.
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I'm happy with this FM , but the hog could flip itself over if firewalled to hard
nicknamed "ensign eliminator"
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Torque where are you man?! Pull yerself away from the bong and get back in here!
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Let's just up it by a factor of ten and see how we like it? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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paintmaw .. try that:
Full Flaps down, Gear down, then make an approach to landing at just above stall speed, the buzzer going all the time, then just before touchdown do the following:
a) slamm throttle to firewall
b) pull back on the stick to arrest sink rate (or even go to climb attitude)
Tell me the results
DW6
[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 02-28-2001).]
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Originally posted by Duckwing6:
paintmaw .. try that:
Full Flaps down, Gear down, then make an approach to landing at just above stall speed, the buzzer going all the time, then just before touchdown do the following:
a) slamm throttle to firewall
b) pull back on the stick to arrest sink rate (or even go to climb attitude)
Tell me the results
DW6
Last time when I did that, i did it with normal reaction..
I was coming to land, noticed that my speed was too slow, about to stall (below 100mph), I kicked in full throttle with wep and then I thought "ops, im in a hog, that shouldn't be done", but nothing happend...
didn't enter into spin nor did I notice any big differences in torque..
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HT explained this in another thread several months back. Anybody remember the name of the thread?
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007420.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007420.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007456.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/007456.html)
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005330.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/005330.html)
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Oh. AH has ground effects. Does WB's have ge? Honest question.
-Westy
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Originally posted by paintmaw:
I'm happy with this FM , but the hog could flip itself over if firewalled to hard
nicknamed "ensign eliminator"
Only if the rudder trim wasn't set in advance,actually, the F4F wildcat was worse than the F4U.
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Remember that our engine controls are greatly simplified.
"Firewalling the throttle" in games like Aces High is not the same thing the pilots in most of the accounts did in regards to RPM change and things like that.
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Lephturn - Aces High Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome! (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
"Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know." - Michel Eyquem, seigneur de Montaigne. (1533–1592)
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To hell with you guys, I'm grabbin' a six-pack and goin' lookin' for Torque!
Mk
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Westy, yes, WB has groundeffect.
I agree with the lack of torque..I even think it's undermodelled in WB (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"
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Read the links I posted, and correct HT where his #'s don't match yours. I'll be looking for one of those threads to get punted to the top...
Or will I?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 02-28-2001).]
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I remember something put by Citabria a couple of months back regarding the Spiraling Slipstream which he thought was the main reason we all experience the lack of torque I don't have the link to the topic but I'm sure someone will dig it up.
<<<oops Hblair found it>>
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
-----15 Spanische Staffel----
Tis not important how one goes,but who goes with you.
[This message has been edited by Glasses (edited 02-28-2001).]