Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: republic on February 24, 2008, 10:19:31 AM
-
I can remember when I was a kid, I'd go into radio shack and see all the old Tandys and whatnot lined up running a looping demo of some incredible looking flight sim. When I got my first computer, I spent my time playing Aces of the Pacific, Aces Over Europe, and Aces of the Deep (not a flight sim, but another dying breed of sim).
Later I moved on to the Janes flight sims. Somewhat goofy flight models, but still very fun games. Then the flight sim genre began to thin out. Sure there was the F/A 18 Hornet games, the Flanker games and the neverending IL2 series but...somewhere along the way the flight sim turned from a simulation experience, to a sandbox.
LOMAC and IL2, while excellent simulation experiences, would have been laughed at during the flight sim heyday. Remember that Harrier combo flightsim/strategy? Now that was revolutionary... I read somewhere that they were going to remake it. No doubt with super speed powerups and Godmode...
Aces High is the last hope for flight simmers. In a genre that is dying, AH is thankfully, still providing a simulation with fun. I'd rather play AH than any current sim. Sure, my wheels are octagons, and I swear the 4FU in Aces of the Pacific was more detailed than our C-Hog but...I accept those things because without the lighthearted graphics not everyone would be able to play AH.
I'd rather not have photo realistic visuals if it meant that I'd only be playing with overindulged teenagers (The only ones who seem to be able to afford bleeding edge hardware.) In AH you get a great variety of opponents. Real veterans, real pilots, older fans of the genre, and the younger folk.
I can only hope that one day PC gaming will come to the realization that there are some niches of gamers that cannot be satiated with a first person shooter... Some of us do not want the ability to fly with a mouse or a gamepad. Some of us crazies will actually spend 100+ in joystick hardware just to relive history.
Judging by the new faces in AH, maybe we'll see a comeback.
-
Hi Republic.
Interesting post, but I must respectfully disagree with you.
I'm a flight simmer since I was 14 years old, 1985, starting with the old SubLogic 'Flight Simulator' for my Atari 1200XL. I even bought it with my own money, $50, which is about what a sim costs today. I too grew up playing Aces Over the Pacific, Falcon 3.0, all the Janes iterations through F/A 18, etc.
AH2 is a FUN game, but the savior of the genre? I think not.
I think we all have a tendency to look at some of those old sims through the glasses of nostalgia. Aces Pacific was a fun game for its time, but let's not go crazy and start touting it as the flight model to be held up as the grail, nor should we get carried away with the fun factor it was. I mean, yes it was fun, but if you booted it up today I wonder if it would still seem as fun.
The flight sim genre is definately not in its heyday anymore. I agree (I think) with your premise that part of its demise is the generation of gamers that demands instant gratification or the quake-like twitch fest of FPS/RTS gaming. I mean, heck, I enjoy COD4 online too, but I can only take it for about an hour at a time. It's fun, but it's not a meal, you know?
[.rant on] Where I think the genre has truly failed is capitalizing on the existing technology to make a truly persistent 'electronic battlefield' within the framework of a study sim fidelity. WW2OL is probably close, although I haven't ever played it, and from what I understand the FMs suck in that game so it doesn't really qualify. AH2's AvA arena is making a stab at it with the whole 'war' thing, but even there we're talking about a very small segment of the player base you need to make that really worthwhile. What I'm talking about is a truly epic campaign engine with the gamut of vehicles, planes and infantry, with planes that have enough fidelity to be 'fun' without sacrificing too much realism. AH2 provides the framework for that.
Think Der Grosse Schlag, but available everyday instead of once a year.
But, really, AH2 is alot like quake with wings. It is fun, and I enjoy the game, but lets look at it for what it is- the tactical side of fighting planes with enough realism to be fun but not a chore, but it's a sandbox. The strategic side of the game sucks. Ultimately it's up, rinse and repeat for no real reason other than the fight. For me, anyway, there's no real objective than to go up and shoot something down for the sake of shooting something down, and if I'm lucky I'm not fighting another Spitfire with my Spitfire.
Is this the savior of the genre? No.
Having said that, the genre isn't as dead as you think it is. There are very active modding communities out there making some great additions to decent-to-excellent simulators. When I'm not quaking in AH2, I love to up a F-15E (with an excellent, accurate downloaded payware cockpit) and go on strike missions in Falcon 4.0, probably the best flight sim ever made, and certainly the best dynamic campaign engine. There are folks building excellent dynamic campaign generators and scripted single mission campaigns for IL-2 that kick sand on any 'immersion' I'm going to get out of AH2.
Perhaps they aren't cranking them out like they used to, but alot can be done with what is out there.
[.rant off]
I think Combat Tour is likely to be the evolution of the genre, and HTC is a genius for being the first to go in this direction. I really think it could be a goldmine of opportunity. But how many people are really looking to invest time and effort in their flight sim experience?
Ok, enough for one post. I hope you felt like having a discussion!
-
I started with Wings of Fury (Broderbund) on an Apple IIe, back in 1987. I've always been a WWII buff anyways. My wife wants me to either "donate" or "get rid of" about 200+ books in our basement.
I guard "my stash" like the Black Knight.
-
i disagree toonces i think republic is right, and that ah2 will be the sole addiction of many gamers for years to come.
-
Well, luckily I have many hobbies so I won't be too disappointed when the genre dies...except for AH2 of course. :cool:
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
My wife wants me to either "donate" or "get rid of" about 200+ books in our basement.
Why don't you make wife happy? Italy's not that far away, you know...... :D
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
I guard "my stash" like the Black Knight.
Fight on good sir...there are many of us who guard our own stashes.
-
You can't look at an old game that once was cutting edge, and fun at the time, and today say "Eh". Those were great games at the time.
-
I think the key to this, was in the title of the thread, Republic.
For people who grew up playing Flight sims, taking the time and effort to learn all of this, going through all the technical data that just seems' to go hand in hand with any simulator, you discover that the simmer is someone who is willing to work for his fun. He (or She) would be the kind of Hot rodder from the old days. Where His/Her car was fast because THEY damn well got under the hood, and swapped the cam, carb, intake manifold, Stock cast-iron exhaust manifolds' for Steel-tube header pipes, etc.
Today's GAMER (in bold, not to be confused with 'simmer) Is like the kids' you see today-steal single-mommy's credit card, and just drop their rice rocket off at the guy who's rumored to be the hot "tuner" in town. Then pick it up when it's done.(or should I say pimped?) :lol
The whole point being, We are a dying breed. Just like the old rods' at the drive-ins' have given way to kids' wearing their ball-caps on sideways, and driving little import cars. FPS's are huge now. Getting a new flight sim on the market today would be a herculean task, at best.
-
PC flight sims are a dying breed and have been for a while. Why would a software house publish a flight sim when for a fraction of the development time they can make a FPS (which are usually designed for console use) and rake in millions of sales. PC gaming is now dominated by WoW and Sims, most other big game titles are multi platform designs and cloned across for PC use.
AH2 is fun on the side and is very much just air quake, it's always held a very niche market and is far from being the saviour of PC flight sims. Just waiting to see when Microsoft pull the plug on Flight Simulator, that will spell the end of my involvement with PC flight sims.
...-Gixer
-
Originally posted by toonces3
Having said that, the genre isn't as dead as you think it is. There are very active modding communities out there making some great additions to decent-to-excellent simulators. When I'm not quaking in AH2, I love to up a F-15E (with an excellent, accurate downloaded payware cockpit) and go on strike missions in Falcon 4.0, probably the best flight sim ever made, and certainly the best dynamic campaign engine. There are folks building excellent dynamic campaign generators and scripted single mission campaigns for IL-2 that kick sand on any 'immersion' I'm going to get out of AH2.
Toonces would you mind to PM me some links to some sites with some of those dynamic campaigns? I haven't found anything nearly that good for IL2. Also sounds like I need to give Falcon 4.0 another shot, had no idea there was the ability to fly other aircraft. After LOMAC's "campaign" I had all but given up on modern aircraft sims.
Originally posted by toonces3
I hope you felt like having a discussion!
Actually I do want to have a good discussion lol We hardcore simmers need to stick together, our developers are quickly being gobbled up by the likes of the EA/Ubisoft machines.. SSI is no more, Microprose, Dynamix...all gone.
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Today's GAMER (in bold, not to be confused with 'simmer) Is like the kids' you see today-steal single-mommy's credit card, and just drop their rice rocket off at the guy who's rumored to be the hot "tuner" in town. Then pick it up when it's done.(or should I say pimped?)
I agree. The definition of a good flight sim for today's generation is Ace Combat 6 for the xbox. The joystick is all but dead. One of my favorite games Klingon Academy (Ya I'm a geek) was an incredible game that tanked because it relied on the joystick for input. And that was...like 10 years ago lol. Microsoft Flight Sim and X-Plane eek out updates every year or so but...those are often used more for almost "educational" purposes than real entertainment.
Originally posted by FiLtH
You can't look at an old game that once was cutting edge, and fun at the time, and today say "Eh". Those were great games at the time
I agree. Of course Aces of the Pacific etc. had rudimentary flight models by today's standards...a good reason for that is that the CPU's of the time are less powerful than even your cheapest cellphone CPU.
I ran Aces of the Pacific on a 486/SX 33Mhz with 4MB of ram with a cirrus logic PCI video card with 1MB of video memory at 320x240 resolution. I run Aces High II with a Core 2 Quad running at 3000MHz with 4GB of ram with an ATI 3870 with 512MB of video memory at 1280x1024 resolution. For the time, AotP was amazing. (I can remember thinking how awesome the torpedo trails looked, and how detailed the Lexington class carriers looked..)
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
I started with Wings of Fury (Broderbund) on an Apple IIe, back in 1987. I've always been a WWII buff anyways. My wife wants me to either "donate" or "get rid of" about 200+ books in our basement.
I guard "my stash" like the Black Knight.
If she gets the best of you make us here your 1st call.:)
-
Huh...it's AMAZING to me to read that people are giving up flight sims. I'm relatively young (28), and, after having a nintendo when I was about 10, lost interest in video/computer games entirely. I played original "Doom" a little, and have played "Medal of Honor" on other people's consoles. But nothing really appealed to me alot until my Dad installed a copy of X-Plane7 on his computer. That got me fascinated with the mechanics of airplanes and flight, which in turn lead to me being fascinated with air combat.
I mean, come on young people, Knights of the Air! A history of REAL warriors who fought (and still fight) in the sky for their countries. How can some spell casting BS with a bunch of eye-candy graphics compare to a game about bouncing someone at 400 miles per hour in the hottest, most bad-ass piston engine machines ever built? How can running around a simulated maze with a simulated shotgun (or often enough, it is some completely fantastical sci-fi setup, not even realistic guns) compare to maneuvering and gutting it out in 3 dimensions at hundreds of miles per hour armed with multiple 50 cals and big freakin' cannons?
-
BnZ :) Glad to see you.
-
Flight sims have always been a niche market. We are just a small percentage of the gamers out there. Good flight sims are expensive to make, and take a lot of time to develop. Big game companys go for the quick to develop games that have larger markets. I have been been playing sims since ILS on my C64 and have seem many good sims die.
Be glad we have HT, maybe thank him the next time you talk to him. If he decides to pick up his marbles and go home, there may not be another waiting to jump in.
Thanks HT!
Gunner
-
I play this game because it actually (and hopefully continues to) allow for some THOUGHT behind how I play.
-
Check out this link. I peruse SimHQ's site every once in awhile, and this was one of their latest stories. Could be promising.
http://www.simhq.com/_air11/air_337a.html
-
I still boot up and play Tornado every month or so. The sim was outstanding at the time and still holds its own today (though not in eye candy). It was just about the only sim (other than AH) that I could totally loose track of time in.
Here (http://www.migman.com/ref/1990_combat/Tornado/Tornado.htm) is a link to a review of it. If you can find it and have an old 486 to run it on it is well worth the time invested.
-
I am waiting on CT and the latest oleg game "storm of war" which should be the first installment of many and probably the most detailed flight/combat flight sim to date. Although those are going to be fun I still play il2 1946 through the hyperlobby client in servers with 50-60 people. The map rotations have all sorts of objectives and plane limits to allow a map win in about 40 minutes of play. and its nice to have 50 people playing on a historical map with historical match ups working as a team.
-
FYI. I fly with a mouse, and you'll all die to it. :D
-
Boxed flight sims got too complicated, with Falcon 4 the classic example. You had to study the freaking encyclopedia they called a manual for a month before you could fly a sortie. It wasnt really a flight sim as much as a system simulator with the flying as a secondary feature. Some may disagree, but the reason AH is as good as it is, is because they add the system functions needed to give just enough feeling of "being there" without it becoming the only thing you do.
My all time favorite box sim was the original Red Baron from Dynamix. What made it great was not the graphics or the flight model which for its time were state of the art, but the semi-role playing pilot careers, having famous aces challenge you to duels and getting to choose a personal plane. Even Aces of the Pacific lost some of the depth of the career feature, it was there but not as much variety.
-
"Storm of War: Battle of Britain" is just around the corner. It's the first installment on the new WWII flight sim from the makers of Il2FB.
-
Originally posted by Gixer
Just waiting to see when Microsoft pull the plug on Flight Simulator, that will spell the end of my involvement with PC flight sims.
Ahhh Gixer, there is always X-Plane! :aok
-
Originally posted by SD67
Ahhh Gixer, there is always X-Plane! :aok
X-Plane doesn't have the PMDG 747 or world airports/scenery. Nice enough sim though.
...-Gixer
-
X-Plane does have world scenery, but the airports are rudimentary. I have heaps of custom airports and sceneries built by the users of X-Plane that are first class though. Some of these guys spend incredible amounts of time developing some of this visual stuff for the sim.
The same goes for aircraft. I have build a few X-Plane models that have been circulating throughout the experimental aircraft community that people are using to work on things like belly plates, landing gears configurations, canopy mods and the like. X-Plane has an intensely detailed and accurate physics engine that give an incredible range of feedback. I have one model I made using information directly transferred from my CAD files to work on some of the finer details of the aircraft I am (very slowly) building myself.
-
Yes X-Plane is an interesting sim, i just prefer Vatsim,real world (cargo)flight ops and the 747-400F :D
...-Gixer
-
Originally posted by Grits
Boxed flight sims got too complicated, with Falcon 4 the classic example. You had to study the freaking encyclopedia they called a manual for a month before you could fly a sortie. It wasnt really a flight sim as much as a system simulator with the flying as a secondary feature. Some may disagree, but the reason AH is as good as it is, is because they add the system functions needed to give just enough feeling of "being there" without it becoming the only thing you do.
Grits, that way you're comparing oranges and apples. A P-51 is quicker to fly than an F-16 because it has basically no avionics, while, to get the F-16 off the runway you have to study the freaking encyclopedia. Different planes with ages of evolution between them, inevitable that the newest is the most complicated to manage (not to fly, to manage!) and requires the most studying.
But I guess I understand what you wanted to say: you just wanted to say that there has to be a balance between accuracy of the simulation and playability of the game. If that is what you meant, then a better example would be comparing Falcon 4 to LockOn, where modern jets are simulated with fairly simplified avionics, when compared to Falcon. Or, even more "arcade", the Strike Fighter/Wings over... series of simulation. AH is good because it achieves this mix of simulation and playability at its best.
Newer flight sims (like the one I mentioned and the IL2 series) have brought a new interest for the genre (that is not dying yet, but it's surely ill...), having achieved, to a certain point, the same result.
I love Red Baron, too... eagerly waiting for this one:
Knights of the sky (http://www.stage6.com/videos/tag:gennadich)
Homepage of the project: http://www.gennadich.com/
-
The last box sim I bought was Tornado, I only saw Falcon 4 at a friends house, and I've never seen LockOn. But, yes, you understood where I was going. Even with the more complex modern plane some new games, and IL-2 if you ask me, add far too much tedious busywork managing the systems of the plane instead of what I want to do, fly a WWII fighter. For a while the systems realism race was OK like with Strike Eagle II, Falcon 3, Apache or Tornado where each one added more systems but still kept it from being distracting from the flying. It got to the point that only uber techno-geeks would take the time to learn the manual, and if you look that was exactly when flight sims started dropping in sales. It wasnt the genre it was the product being produced IMO.
-
Originally posted by zorstorer
I still boot up and play Tornado every month or so. The sim was outstanding at the time and still holds its own today (though not in eye candy). It was just about the only sim (other than AH) that I could totally loose track of time in.
Here (http://www.migman.com/ref/1990_combat/Tornado/Tornado.htm) is a link to a review of it. If you can find it and have an old 486 to run it on it is well worth the time invested.
zorstorer,
:aok on Tornado; I played some of the most immersive missions on that sim that I still remember (had one where both my wing sweep and flaps were damaged, and I was so intent on slowing down for the landing that I forgot to lower the gear....but still was able to land without becoming a fireball). Yep, great sim, that one...
pigpen
-
I've heard Eurofighter Typhoon was great, but...sadly I missed out on it. :(
If anyone has some suggested mods for IL2 shoot me a PM, I've all but given up on the series. I've played since the beginning and its really just gotten stale to me.
-
Originally posted by Grits
The last box sim I bought was Tornado, I only saw Falcon 4 at a friends house, and I've never seen LockOn. But, yes, you understood where I was going. Even with the more complex modern plane some new games, and IL-2 if you ask me, add far too much tedious busywork managing the systems of the plane instead of what I want to do, fly a WWII fighter. For a while the systems realism race was OK like with Strike Eagle II, Falcon 3, Apache or Tornado where each one added more systems but still kept it from being distracting from the flying. It got to the point that only uber techno-geeks would take the time to learn the manual, and if you look that was exactly when flight sims started dropping in sales. It wasnt the genre it was the product being produced IMO.
Yep. This is why today I mostly play WWII sims... the planes at the time were easier to manage and you can learn to fly them fast enough, without spending hours on the manuals... and, when you can fly one of them, basically you can fly all of them, transition time is all spent learning how the plane behaves, not what button you have to push to have radar microwave your meal!
Don't get me wrong. I think I am one of those techno-geeks you're referring to, I have Falcon 4 and I like it... but I have no time to learn it! Maybe this is the real matter, we're grown up men, now, we can't dedicate to hobbies the same amount of time we used to... who knows... (did I just say I'm a grown man???? :eek: first step to old age!!! :D)
Btw, I don't think IL2 is too complicated... I'd like to see a more complex engine management in AH, too. ;)
-
If AH had a maximum realism arena, with full engine management, dynamic engine performance, machine wear and failure rates, weapons failures, all manner of indiscriminate failure modes, and had a one life per 24 hour cycle time on server, would that arena ever be populated? Or could HTC actually upcharge for access to it and make additional income from it?
-
Originally posted by thndregg
I play this game because it actually (and hopefully continues to) allow for some THOUGHT behind how I play.
Agreed 'EGG!
I started flying flight sims with MS Flight Sim for DOS in an empty sky uppping a cessna 182. MS FSim for DOS did teach me VOR navagation which did in fact come in handy later... The difference is like night and day!! AH2 is indeed a FSim, (and a free one if you fly it off-line) and it's the only one that will let you fly realistic WW2 aircraft (tanks/boats etc.) with 400-800 other like minded individuals who are trying to shoot you down.
I will continue to subscribe to AH (quoting myself) until my wife pries my Credit Card from my cold dead fingers.
Dying genre? I think not, as evidenced by the seemingly neverending stream of "numbers guys" I see in the MA on a daily basis and the core group of "vets" that have been around since AH beta.
-
Was just over at WB. 90 peps playin in the arenas on a monday with nothing of importance going on. IE; monday nite futball. In the forums the squads are ing because they have lost so many members. JG 26 down to 4 members from 30. Other squads about the same. I hope we always have enough dedicated fun people to play Ace's High. Make it a fun place for all and maybe we will.
The reason I left WB to come to Aces High? Fun. Here, even a bad day a flying beats watchin TV!