Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SIG220 on February 24, 2008, 05:09:22 PM
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Yes, it is true. The government of Pakistan has officially ordered that all access to You Tube be blocked in their country. All Internet Service Providers in Pakistan have now done so, preventing anyone living there from visiting the You Tube website.
One major ISP there sent an email to all of its customers, urging them to write letters to You Tube.com and demand that they take down all videos, photos, and documents that are offensive to Islam. Government regulators said that if You Tube simply complies with this reasonable request, that access to their web site would then be restored by the government.
Here is a link to the full story about this:
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5io-SE_bmENEzM46rwdVuDt9iK5zg
What should You Tube do about this controversy?
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Tell Pakistan to get bent.
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why do muslims always demand preferential treatment? ;)
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ooga ooga ooga chucka.
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZfQHOj-0RPs
With crap like this, I ban it too
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by REP0MAN
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZfQHOj-0RPs
With crap like this, I ban it too
:rolleyes:
I'll take Cat Steven's Islam presentation over many Islamic "leaders" I have heard screaming for western blood..
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Originally posted by Blooz
Tell Pakistan to get bent.
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Originally posted by SIG220
Government regulators said that if You Tube simply complies with this reasonable request,
How is that a "reasonable request"?
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Unlikely youtube will make any concessions other than maybe offering the possibility of tagging videos offensive to Muslims to Muslim censors.
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Originally posted by Blooz
Tell Pakistan to get bent.
Agreed.
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I dont care really, but it is unfortunate that muslims wish to remain so ignorant in this world today. Any time you ban yourself access to any information you are insulating yourself in ignorance.
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Originally posted by Yeager
I dont care really, but it is unfortunate that muslims wish to remain so ignorant in this world today. Any time you ban yourself access to any information you are insulating yourself in ignorance.
TBH I don't think its that much of a request. The Islamic population in the world is farily significant and could be quite a sizeable chunk of youtube viewers.
And it is no different to any other potentially objectionable materials. For example porn/mature material is already flagged. How is material muslims might not want their kids to see any different from stuff we don't want our kids to see?
Sure, we might think it's silly, but it's not like they've declared a fatwa on youtube.
I believe the US, UK, Australian, and NZ governments are all in talks with ISPs blocking access to sites with known 'objectional' material which in some cases is perfectly legal in the countries hosting those sites (such as bestiality in Holland).
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Originally posted by Vulcan
TBH I don't think its that much of a request. The Islamic population in the world is farily significant and could be quite a sizeable chunk of youtube viewers.
And it is no different to any other potentially objectionable materials. For example porn/mature material is already flagged. How is material muslims might not want their kids to see any different from stuff we don't want our kids to see?
Sure, we might think it's silly, but it's not like they've declared a fatwa on youtube.
I believe the US, UK, Australian, and NZ governments are all in talks with ISPs blocking access to sites with known 'objectional' material which in some cases is perfectly legal in the countries hosting those sites (such as bestiality in Holland).
But Bestiality is not a religion, is it?? Wouldn't doing that be giving Islam preferential treatment??
To be equal, you would have to remove all content with any religious overtones. For such content could potentially offend someone's religious beliefs. I think that all content about any religion ( including Islam ) would thus have to be banned.
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Originally posted by SIG220
But Bestiality is not a religion, is it?? Wouldn't doing that be giving Islam preferential treatment??
To be equal, you would have to remove all content with any religious overtones. For such content could potentially offend someone's religious beliefs. I think that all content about any religion ( including Islam ) would thus have to be banned.
Exactly, once you give in to one groups demands then you open the door to all the others to request something they find offensive to be removed.
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Originally posted by Yeager
I dont care really, but it is unfortunate that muslims wish to remain so ignorant in this world today. Any time you ban yourself access to any information you are insulating yourself in ignorance.
Right on sir. :aok
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If the three little pigs is "insulting to Islam", 99% of anything on youtube is gonna piss 'em off. Why bother.
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Originally posted by trax1
Exactly, once you give in to one groups demands then you open the door to all the others to request something they find offensive to be removed.
The hardest piece of information / entertainment to have removed is the first. Once that is removed, it is easy to have everything else pulled for any reason imaginable.
South Park - Cartoon Wars.
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it's not my country and its not my business. they can do whatever they want, as long as they dont ban beastiality vids i wont complain.
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Under this thinking pattern, shouldn't the internet be banned everywhere because somewhere on it, there's something insulting?
Further, should we be banned from exiting our homes so that we don't encounter anything insulting? Should windows be banned so we can't see such an insulting world?
Come off it already. There's usually enough info in the title and description to tell that it might insult you...so don't watch it. :eek: Or, you could just not go to the site if you think it's against your beliefs. :eek: :eek:
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Originally posted by SIG220
But Bestiality is not a religion, is it??
No but neither is sodomy, polygamy, and abortion.
The point is youtube already engages in censorship (see here http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3DlNn_VZajr3Q ) . So an Islamic *nation* asking for the content to be flagged (something youtube is obviously able to do) is not a big ask imho. If it were an islamic group in the US asking for the content to be blocked I'd say "get bent".
OOZ662 are you comfortable viewing child pornography? Do you feel everyone has the right to view it? Do you think you should have the right to view bestiality (and anyone on the internet)?
If I were to link you to a video and said hey guys heres a great ww2 guncam and in the middle of that video was some bestiality - in a lot of countries you'd be committing a crime. Take that example and apply it to an islamic country with their far stricter laws.
You guys are showing a very limited perception of the world, law, and it's impact on you. Censorship is rife on the net, if you don't think so I don't think you know much about what goes on behind the scenes.
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Got 20 minutes to watch something about people being outraged about entertainment content?
Zappa on Crossfire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ISil7IHzxc)
Glad no one wants to limit your choices in the good old U.S.A.
But it's true. Control the people by limiting their access to any other views, whether you agree or disagree with them.
wrngway
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I can't find anything wrong in asking content to be removed from youtube.
I also can't find anything wrong in asking for gravity to be reduced.
And I can't find anything wrong in youtube telling them to get bent.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
OOZ662 are you comfortable viewing child pornography? Do you feel everyone has the right to view it? Do you think you should have the right to view bestiality (and anyone on the internet)?
If I were to link you to a video and said hey guys heres a great ww2 guncam and in the middle of that video was some bestiality - in a lot of countries you'd be committing a crime. Take that example and apply it to an islamic country with their far stricter laws.
Alright, fine. From your viewpoint then. Say we decide censorship is the best thing since sliced bread. Now, who's going to stop it? Now it's YouTube. Next it's complete information and data control. Somebody in the censorship business or the government decides for you what you're going to see, and with that shapes you.
I have a classic example in my life. Have you ever been to China? I went there on vacation last summer. EVERYTHING there is under censorship by keyword as it passes through keyword filters and blacklists in the ISP's servers. They go so far as to make it so some threads on this BBS suddenly can't be found while others are fine. You can even see it by using Google China to look up something controversial versus Google USA.
What's the result of that? A mass group of people that believes what the reigning power wants to believe. The stepmother of the girl who took me to China is born and raised Chinese. She will fight you nearly to the death to tell you that Mao Zedong was the greatest man to have ever lived. She's the sweetest woman on the planet, but you bring up Mao or Communism or any of those sorts of topics and she will gnaw your arm off for saying a bad word, simply because she grew up censored to the rest of the world and doesn't know better.
From there, you could get into the whole debate of Communism vs Capitalism, blahdy blah. Just an example as to how censorship is beginning to breed in exactly what some world leaders want. Censorship could be a very useful thing in keeping out hurt and bruised feelings, but it can also shape people and I dunno about you, but I think that's at least kinda wrong.
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Originally posted by Blooz
Tell Pakistan to get bent.
Blooz....ya beat me to it Sir <>
ROX
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I suppose clips insulting to islam are far more disagreeable than beheading people with a knife, blowing people up, stoning people and issuing threats of death just because they are deemed to have insulted the "prophet" or his faith.
On the other hand saying "get bent" seems to fit the situation.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
Alright, fine. From your viewpoint then. Say we decide censorship is the best thing since sliced bread. Now, who's going to stop it? Now it's YouTube. Next it's complete information and data control. Somebody in the censorship business or the government decides for you what you're going to see, and with that shapes you.
I have a classic example in my life. Have you ever been to China? I went there on vacation last summer. EVERYTHING there is under censorship by keyword as it passes through keyword filters and blacklists in the ISP's servers. They go so far as to make it so some threads on this BBS suddenly can't be found while others are fine. You can even see it by using Google China to look up something controversial versus Google USA.
What's the result of that? A mass group of people that believes what the reigning power wants to believe. The stepmother of the girl who took me to China is born and raised Chinese. She will fight you nearly to the death to tell you that Mao Zedong was the greatest man to have ever lived. She's the sweetest woman on the planet, but you bring up Mao or Communism or any of those sorts of topics and she will gnaw your arm off for saying a bad word, simply because she grew up censored to the rest of the world and doesn't know better.
From there, you could get into the whole debate of Communism vs Capitalism, blahdy blah. Just an example as to how censorship is beginning to breed in exactly what some world leaders want. Censorship could be a very useful thing in keeping out hurt and bruised feelings, but it can also shape people and I dunno about you, but I think that's at least kinda wrong.
First answer the questions I posted for you above around the legality of such content in some countries. Ignoring those questions won't make the facts go away.
Secondly what is wrong with patriotism. Yes I know what China's up too - probably more so than you as I'm involved in securing networks that operate within china. I know american's who will do the same thing and america is far from perfect. Most governments in the world already engage in censorship, including yours, so your points about that are moot.
Pakistan is an islamic country, it is their right to control what enters their borders, especially if they see their actions protecting their citizens. Same goes for the USA, in case you didn't realize a lot more people in the world think america does things wrong than think pakistan does things wrong. There are many things illegal in the USA or parts of the USA that many people think should be legal (eg prostitution, abortion, marijuana etc).
The world is bigger than the internet, not the other way around, and the internet and those that provide content are adapting to it.
At the end of the day like any internet based service profits will rule the day. If youtube deems the islamic user base significant enough I'm sure they'll add this 'feature'.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
No but neither is sodomy, polygamy, and abortion.
Again, none of this garbage that you keep interjecting into this discussion has anything at all to do with the subject of religion.
Besides, they are not asking for the content to be "flagged", as you have claimed. They are requesting that it be removed.
I am not comfortable viewing Radical Islamic material on YouTube. It offends me greatly. But I don't ask for it to be removed.
People have a free speech right to condemn and ridicule any religion, including Islam. I routinely condemn the Catholic Church, although not anywhere near as much as I do Islam.
Meanwhile, the intrigue in this controversy continues. It appears that many Pakistani people have been posting anti-government videos on You Tube recently, calling for President Musharraf to step down since his party was defeated in the election this month. So the real reason for this sudden ban may actually be something quite different.
See this story:
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/02/25/pakistan-youtube-plot-thickens
The blocking efforts are also interfering with people in other countries now being able to access YouTube also:
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16832/53/
The effort of one Pakistani ISP even brought YouTube down world-wide for an entire hour. Because of the technological mess this has all created, the main Telcomm company in Pakistan cut off Pakistan from the rest of the world yesteday, while they try to figure this mess out.
See:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/threatchaos/?p=548
I don't know if Pakistan is back online and again connected to the rest of the world yet today.
Does anyone here have friends in Pakistan that they can email?
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Originally posted by SIG220
Again, none of this garbage that you keep interjecting into this discussion has anything at all to do with the subject of religion.
Besides, they are not asking for the content to be "flagged", as you have claimed. They are requesting that it be removed.
I am not comfortable viewing Radical Islamic material on YouTube. It offends me greatly. But I don't ask for it to be removed.
People have a free speech right to condemn and ridicule any religion, including Islam. I routinely condemn the Catholic Church, although not anywhere near as much as I do Islam.
Meanwhile, the intrigue in this controversy continues. It appears that many Pakistani people have been posting anti-government videos on You Tube recently, calling for President Musharraf to step down since his party was defeated in the election this month. So the real reason for this sudden ban may actually be something quite different.
See this story:
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/02/25/pakistan-youtube-plot-thickens
The blocking efforts are also interfering with people in other countries now being able to access YouTube also:
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/16832/53/
The effort of one Pakistani ISP even brought YouTube down world-wide for an entire hour. Because of the technological mess this has all created, the main Telcomm company in Pakistan cut off Pakistan from the rest of the world yesteday, while they try to figure this mess out.
See:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/threatchaos/?p=548
I don't know if Pakistan is back online and again connected to the rest of the world yet today.
Does anyone here have friends in Pakistan that they can email?
The wests founding laws are based on christian beliefs. Look at your laws around marriage and homosexual relations, they all stem from religious beliefs and any altneration to these laws brings howls of anger from religious groups in the US does it not?
Removed/flagged it's all the same. Youtube can identify where you're coming from, youtube and many other video sites already censor what you can view based on geographical data. Once again you show your ignorance of what is already occuring with youtube.
As far as I'm aware the Pakistani govt doesn't want people to watch videos on youtube that are not appropriate under islamic law (ie illegal and anybody watching them would be committing a crime). It did not want to block anti-govt videos.
As for the internet outage? Yeah right. Sure they took out the world, sure every ISP around the world openly accepts routing updates from anyone. Once again you show complete ignorance in this field and how net routing works. It didn't even get a mention in SANS so I'm guessing it's just media panic over a molehill as per usual.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
As far as I'm aware the Pakistani govt doesn't want people to watch videos on youtube that are not appropriate under islamic law (ie illegal and anybody watching them would be committing a crime). It did not want to block anti-govt videos.
So you trust and believe what the Pakistani government says? That alone says a great deal about you.
Why all of a sudden do this now? The timing of this is most suspicious to anyone who is not pro-Pakistan, like yourself. For it comes right on the heels of their sitting government losing the election held this month.
You obviously supported all of the horrific abuses done to women under the Taliban rule of Afghanistan, which were also committed under the rule of strict Islamic law.
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Originally posted by SIG220
You obviously supported all of the horrific abuses done to women under the Taliban rule of Afghanistan, which were also committed under the rule of strict Islamic law.
Explain how you came to this conclusion?
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Still awaiting a response SIG220.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Still awaiting a response SIG220.
I wouldn't hold your breath.
Anyway, the problem is that the government contacted 17 ISPs within their reach, and all had them put in null routes in BGP for the networks controlled by Youtube.
Then, unfortunately, PCCW allowed those null routes to slip into it's backbone. Then... the rest of the world picked it up, and suddenly Youtube looked like it was in Pakistan. Even in America, a traceroute would take you to Pakistan until ISPs started filtering and getting things under control.
The internet is a federation of systems, called autonomous systems, that rely on trust between each other. It's easy to inject 'poison' routes into the system, at least for a short while.
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Right after those poor, misunderstand morons renounce violence and treat women as equals.
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Here is the alleged video, or part of, that caused the little flap in Pakistan:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2e6_1204044414
There are historically placed illustrated depictions of violence but nothing really graphic.
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Originally posted by Dos Equis
I wouldn't hold your breath.
Anyway, the problem is that the government contacted 17 ISPs within their reach, and all had them put in null routes in BGP for the networks controlled by Youtube.
Then, unfortunately, PCCW allowed those null routes to slip into it's backbone. Then... the rest of the world picked it up, and suddenly Youtube looked like it was in Pakistan. Even in America, a traceroute would take you to Pakistan until ISPs started filtering and getting things under control.
The internet is a federation of systems, called autonomous systems, that rely on trust between each other. It's easy to inject 'poison' routes into the system, at least for a short while.
The rest of the world did not pick it up, it stopped in Singapore. Anything routed via PCCW would've had issues but beyond that nooooooo. Route poisoning is a very old/common attack that most ISPs dealt with a long time ago.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Explain how you came to this conclusion?
You had absolutely no qualifiers or restrictions included in any of your previous statements regarding the rights of Islamic states. None whatsoever.
The current government in Pakistan is extremely corrupt, and has abused many human rights. And a large portion of the population there supports the most anti-democratic and extremist Islamic ideology.
The fact that you actually trust what the Pakistani government says is most disturbing.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Still awaiting a response SIG220.
You check this forum every day of the week?