Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Servo on February 27, 2001, 12:43:00 PM
-
Hello everyone,
This morning I had a very interesting encounter with a P-51. Perhaps I'm a bit overconfident when fighting P-51s due to a high success rate against them (I've shot down more P-51s than any other aircraft this tour), but in this case it was warrented.
A5 was getting hit (and vulched) from an assortment of Spits and F4s (enemy carrier right off shore), but I managed to get into the air and extend away from the carrier a fair bit before I noticed a high dot tailing me.
To my surprise and joy, it was my primary meal, P-51. He had quite an altitude advantage, but it was just him and I... so I figured as long as we were left alone, I had a shot.
As he begins his first pass, I start filming. What results was a pretty good example of why the Yak eats P-51s.
The pilot was good and had knowledge of energy and the importance of altitude. During the fight, we GAIN several thousand feet of altitude!
The first couple of passes are pretty standard fare, but I keep trying to get him in the vertical which results in a few vertical HO's. I make very very few horizontal turns. The Yak shines in the vertical, and I only turned horizontal to conserve E when he was closing.
Around the third or fourth pass, I make my first real dangerous mistake. A full loop. I wanted to gain altitude and pull into him as he was making another pass, but I blow a lot of energy and cant get the nose around. It looks to me like he has a shot, but luckily, he doesn't take it and we zip past each other a few feet apart.
He continues to sit high above me and it looks like he's trying to rope me. I bite a few times, but roping a Yak is a difficult thing to do. Many times I sit on on my tail facing straight up with less than 150mph pulling me.
Around mid-fight I realize that I HAVE to get some alt on him or I'm going down. We merge again, another HO, and he pulls up high behind me. As he dives back on my six, I split-s, and BINGO, he makes a mistake. He follows me a fair bit into the dive and I gain a serious amount of speed. He rolls around, levels off, and heads away from me. I use this opportunity to climb. By the time he turns around and starts closing on me again, we're co-alt.
This is where it gets good.
He's closing low and in my blind spot, so I break a bit early. We get into a short turning stint while I try to manuver for a shot. I get within 600, but can't close, and actually, don't have a shot at all. However, he thinks I do and split-s'es.
PERFECT! The Yak accerates faster than the 51, and the runstang dive isn't going to work on me!
Then again...
I'm in close persuit. I'm trying my damnest to get a clean shot, but I just can't get in range. Any other plane could have made the shot from 400-500 but not the Yak.
I could have followed him all the way to the deck and gotten the shot if it wasnt for one -key- factor. He was running right for the ack at his airfield.
5 seconds more and he'd be in flames, but I had to break away and let him go.
I take a light-hearted shot at him over 1, and we let it go.
The film ends, but the story doesn't! I return to 5 to find it in ruins. I'm really low on gas, but saddle up on an F4 and use my remaining cannon ammo to shoot off his tail. A5 is swarming with cons, so I decide to divert to the CV about a half sector away.
Next thing I see is a high P-51 closing on my six. I'm running on fumes, just a few dozen MG rounds, and can not make any adjustments to my flight path and still expect to land, so I just keep on truckin. He closes to just about out of gun range and disengages.
Then over CH1 he mentions how I did the exact same thing he did.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
I land on the CV and go eat breakfast.
I think this film is a good example of ACM. Of course, I have no idea how to add the link to the file in here, so I'll add it in the next post.
Any comments? Yak experts, am I making any glaring mistakes in my ACM?
Thanks guys!
-
And here is the film.
web.tampabay.rr.com/llamacomps/films/YakvsP51.ahf (http://web.tampabay.rr.com/llamacomps/films/YakvsP51.ahf)
Servo
**MOL**
-
Servo,
I am not very good at gunnery, nor am I a paying customer yet (so I can't meet you in the main arena), but I will put my co-alt, co-speed Pony against your Yak any day (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Have we met in HtH before?
streakeagle
gameID: streak
-
I will take a look at the film later. I love watching other peoples films.
Servo, an unwary P51 pilot will get eaten alive by a compotent yak pilot. The yak accels very well, zooms, and climbs well, and is all but as fast as the pony. The yak is a better performing plane in nearly all aspects (except guns). The yak and the 109G are the two planes i treat with a great deal of care.
-
StreakEagle, you must not have met any good Yak pilots then (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
1 v 1 with equal pilots, the Yak is far superior to the P-51. The only thing the Pony can do is to run faster, right on the deck and from medium alt up. At the Yak accelerates faster, so the Pony better have a head start.
Now as an Arena plane, the P51 has some advantages, but 1 v 1 ... my money is on the Yak.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
-
My money is on the Yak also. I know that if I get the Pony to turn a couple of times, I've got him.
Cobra
-
I'd go with the Yak too. The Pony only has top speed and the ability to reach out at 800 yards going for it. The Yak beats it in most other aspects.
Of course.. getting within 400 yards of a Mustang that is pointed away from you is no easy task.
AKDejaVu
-
Only chance for a 51 pilot in this situation is to get someone else to help out, then vulch. While a 51 may be able to leave a fight with a Yak-9U, it can make no meaningful engagement, other than the fleeting high-speed BnZ pass.
------------------
leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
-
YAK..YAK..YAK
Showtime! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Lunch for the 13th TAS
Thunder Out
-
i agree with all the above yak statements
if i can meet a 51 alone and he is willing
fight vert and not run, ive got him. the
only thing i hate is they usally do run on
and i cant catch them
------------------
(http://sites.netscape.net/jcy19usa/bash.gif)
JCy19
CO |||AirWolves||
[This message has been edited by jcy19 (edited 02-27-2001).]
-
Lunch for the 13th TAS
Has anyone in the 13th actually engaged a co-alt/co-speed Yak 1:1 before? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
-
My biggest gripe with the Yak is that they are too small for me to shoot.
Could you blow them up... to say, Lanc size? That would really improve the game for me.
-
"...1:1"
No offense 13th guys but he's got ya there (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-Westy
-
LOLOLOLOLOL akdejavu
*milk snort*
-
Okay Streakeagle!
Name the time!
Servo - rubs hands together in an evil fashion
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Has anyone in the 13th actually engaged a co-alt/co-speed Yak 1:1 before? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
Yes. He ended up nearer his ack then I wanted to go. I started off with a 3k alt advantage, and grabbing.
Before you go anywhere with this I have to say that the 13th has shocked me with how much low-level killing they do. Every fiber of my being is screaming "GET OUT" everytime we engage. We have to feed somewhere! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
***-*-
[This message has been edited by Voss (edited 02-27-2001).]
-
all those that say a p51 is no match for a yak are a little off the money. I can win a co-E engagement vs a yak if the yak pilot makes mistakes and vice-versa. It comes down to the pilots. But the yak is a better performing plane without doubt so it would take some silly mistakes on their part to loose a co-E egagement and/or a real good pony pilot who was prepared to hit hard a fast and catch the yakker by suprise.
It would be a grave mistake to think: "easy lunch" when a yakker encounters a pony.
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 02-27-2001).]
-
I have 11 kills of Yaks and one death to a Yak.
Non issue for me.
Yeager (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
In your case Spatula, I'd make allowance. Of course, I probably wouldn't know it was you until it was too late.
Since there are only a handful of P51 experts, I can get by on the Yak's performance vs the P51 when the pilot has equal skill most of the time. When I have the advatage on multiple targets, I'll usually go for the P51 first.
In that film, I do make a few stupid moves, but only because I felt I was in no real danger.
When I was vacantioning in Australia, it was a perfectly normal session to get shot down by Spatula mutliple times. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Servo
**MOL**
-
OK got me to thinking:
Id be an IDIOT to tackle a Yak 1 vs 1 P51D, equal energy and alt. What are you guys thinking?
Sheese.....
Engage and disengage at will. Thats what I try to do and thats what the 51D allows me to do better than anything (at least until lady Dora comes to town).
Y
-
As for P51's vs Yak's, does the Yak have better numbers? It better have. The reason the Mustang was the best offensive fighter of the war was it could fly to where the fight was as quickly as possible, have enough ammo and fuel to fight a long time, and fly back home even quicker. The price of those abilities: size and weight. The Yak never had to do anywhere near the job of the P51, so they saved on weight big time... the lack of guns being the annoying part of those weight savings in this game (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
But P51 numbers are far from bad. The combination of its unique laminar flow airfoil (unusually good lift-to-drag ratio), clean lines (low parisitic drag), and combat flaps gave it range, altitude, speed, and maneuverability that far exceeded what would be expected given its power and wing loadings. The Mustang was almost never the faster, higher, and more maneuverable than its opponents (true of almost all American fighters even to this day, particularly my favorite the F-15). But it was usually better in at least one of those categories and reasonably close to even its worst opposition in the other categories (except for the Me262).
In history and in this sim, pilot skill has a much greater impact on the outcome of any fight. Just look at the dedicated P-47 and P-38 pilots that get plenty of kills flying "inferior aircraft". In the end, neither pilot wins a dogfight, just one makes more mistakes than the other and loses it.
A lot of the time, some would say my mistake is to fly the pony given the other planes I am fighting. But I would rather die flying a pony than win flying an N1K2.
On most days when I fly ponies, I get run down and killed by competent pilots flying just about anything else. I call that learning by burning. When I get tired of getting trashed, I fly the Spit IX (pony minus 3000 lbs plus 20mm cannons). But on some days, the learning pays off and I can beat even the best of the pilots I have met in HtH while flying the pony. Because even they make mistakes too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
An interesting note: I would estimate that about 1/5 to 1/4 of my kills are maneuver kills. I can usually follow terrain and maneuver violently without hitting it while those so sure they can outmaneuver my pony forget they can't outmaneuver the ground (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
So, if you like smoking ponies, come fly against me some day in HtH. But you might find me on one of those days where you get smoked by the pony (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Later,
Stephen the Eagle
aka streakeagle
AH ID: streak
[This message has been edited by streakeagle (edited 02-28-2001).]
-
Nice film....can't beleive the coward ran for ACK cover.
Its too bad the Yak doesnt carry more ammo, you had several oppritunities to blaze away at him but with such a low ammo load, you really have to make those shots count.
------------------
Paul J. Busiere
Aces High Arena handle: BD5Pilot
http://bd5.checksix.net (http://bd5.checksix.net)
BD-5 "T" (TurboProp) 90% complete, first flight in 2001 (We hope!)
-
Yeager,
As I am sure you realize, using your plane's advantage correctly could still allow you to beat the Yak 1v1. When you see a bad setup (i.e. co-alt, co-speed, head-on), you disengage and re-engage until you like what you see.
Sooner or later, the Yak will get bored, frustrated, and/or run low on fuel... presenting you the opportunity you have been patiently waiting for (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Winning a dogfight with only superior range and speed is not easy... but very possible if not very fun.
I love to beat angles fighters with energy fighters... it is an art form. My all time favorite match: F-4B/C/D Phantom (all gunless) vs MiG-17/MiG-21 with positive visual ID rule of engagement. There is no harder dogfight than to be the F-4 in that fight. Makes WWII dogfighting look easy. General Robin Olds (retired) was a P-51/P-38 WWII ace (he thought Mustang was a big improvement, sorry Citabria). He also led the "Wolf Pack" to great victories in Vietnam flying gunless F-4C's. He personally got 4 kills and is sure he would have had so many more if his plane just had a gun.
Later,
Stephen the Eagle
-
Well, I like to let P-51Ds get on my tail. I'll fly straight and true right under them, allowing them to dive on me. As soon as they close to 500yds I'll pull some tricks, and set up for a scissors. They'll either bite, or be smart and zoom right out of there. If we're still doing this routine when I need to rtb, then it's up to the 51 driver if he wants to fly into ack, because I'm landing.
And as for flying into ack in general, get over it. It was a valid tactic then, just as it is now. I will do anything short of cheating(read, hacking) to get an advantage on my enemy. This is not some sort of chivalrous duel in the air, but pure combat, and all that matters is if you're dead and I'm not. Nothing personal, just combat as it really is.
I do have rare moments when I taunt my enemies(like this past weekend), and for that you have my apologies (fscott) - just frustration building up when in an outnumbered situation. And, no, fscott, you are not a newbie.
------------------
leonid, Kompol
5 GIAP VVS-KA, Knights (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 02-28-2001).]
-
Personally I've found Yaks to be very deadly adversaries. Some of my most suspensfull fights have been with yaks. My general against a Yak is to be very very carefull. If care is not taken, I often find myself in front of one. Then it's up to my planes envelope to get me out of trouble.
- senna
-
Streak,
You obviously havent faced a good Yak pilot yet. I love to mix it up in the 51 and find that the Yak is a VERY dangerous opponent.
-Ding
-
Yes Streak, the Yak-9U has very good numbers, for a 1 v 1 situation.
Speedwise the Yak is only slightly slower than the P-51D, and thats if the P-51 is using WEP. Once the WEP is gone, the Yak is nearly equal from 20k on down. There is also a narrow band between 5k-9k where the Yak is the same speed as the P-51, even if the Pony is using WEP. By the way, the Yak doesn't have WEP, so its always at its max power/performance.
Most importantly though, is the fact that the Yak accelerates much faster than the P-51, and retains alot more energy in vertical manuevers as well. So if the Pony decides to run, he better not wait until he has bleed alot of speed off, or the Yak is very close to translating onto his six. Because the Yak will catch him before he can get his P-51D up to speed.
Flat turn wise, they are about equal to the left, but in right hand turns, the Yak is again noticeably superior.
Rollrates, both are excellent aircraft, with neither having a real advantage.
The P-51D is superior in range, and gunset/ammo.
So in a 1 v 1 with equal pilots, the P-51 has got to hope for a snapshot (he can afford to take spraying snapshots where the Yak can't) or play the old fuel game. Hit and run, hit and run. Even then, thats a risky proposition. Of course the Pony can disengage at will, as long as he does it early enough in the fight so that acceleration doesn't play a role, and he still has WEP.
The P-51 is probably the better Arena plane, where the Yak is probably the better dueling plane.
I use to fly the P-51 almost exclusively when I cared about my K/D rankings, but now I tend to fly the Yak almost exclusively, because I find it more fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
-
The Yak can also take some amazing damage. I ran up against one down low when I was flying a pony. I must have had 30 or 40 hits into him, and he just kept on turning back at me for more. I played it safe with my energy and knew better than to get into a turning, low alt fight with him. But the few passes I got into it with him, the most I had him doing was smoking. Once he popped my radiator, I had to limp home and glide for the runway... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by LePaul (edited 02-28-2001).]
-
The truth is.. its kind of a moot point in the MA.
I'm 2:1 against P-51's in the Yak. My one death was in a 20:4 furball where I was actually vulched by a P-47 that augered while I was landing.. giving the kill to the P-51 pilot that had pinged me then ran.
My two P-51 kills were against relatively inexperienced pony pilots. I was on RW saying "OH MY GOD! HE'S TURNING!.. what do you do against a turning P-51? I've never seen this before!" Of course, nobody in my squad had either (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
-
Turn fighting low and slow in a 51D is like walking in front of a speeding car. The result can be safely assumed before hand.
Thats why I try to have a handful of K below me before getting all studly and whipping her around.
Yeager
-
About the Yak and damage... while it can take a pretty good beating from behind, a few very common and non-critical failures ARE critical to the Yak.
First and foremost, oil. The Yak will leak it's entire oil supply in about 20 seconds. If you see a black smoke trail from a Yak, he's lunch.
This leads to the next critical failure. When the engine dies on most a/c they can glide a fair bit, and even possibly disengage. Not the Yak. It flies like a rock with no engine, and wont make it far before the pilot needs to ditch.
Again, if the radiator is hit on the Yak, it's not going to fly nearly as far as other aircraft. Basically, if you get a hit and it leads to black smoke, you've got the kill. The pilot would have to keep shutting off the engine to prevent total failure, and once the engine is off the Yak loses a great deal of speed. Much more than other aircraft.
Hitting the fuel lines is also a fairly nasty blow to a Yak pilot due to his already limited range.
When I hit the oil or fuel lines on other planes, its almost like no damage was dealt.
Not so in the Yak.
Servo
**MOL**
-
"Yes Streak, the Yak-9U has very good numbers, for a 1 v 1 situation"
Well, it's a grand ride in a furball or when you're not too outnumbered. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
2 On More Film (http://www.townisp.com/~jugdriver/2onMore.zip)
That is from Mon night. I had just nailed a 20k P-51 in a 1-on-1. Then I swooped in with squaddie Seeker on a bunch of lower cons. I ran out of ammo being too liberal with the ammo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) But I hate to leave a good fight si I stayed hoping for the auger kill and to help clear Seekers tail. I thought Seeker was rtbing and so I typed rtb fuel/ammo to tel him I was also....only to then see him zoom back the other way. Went to reverse, saw him get nailed and aborted my reverse.
-Westy
-
StreakEagle
Are you on Road Runner? Maybe see you in H2H sometime. I'm down the road in Brandon round Bell Shoals and Bloomingdale.
cu
Eagler
-
Ahhh the Yak....kinda scary huh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I try and follow one rule when engaging any enemy...dictate the fight.
The last thing a pony driver should do 1v1 against a yak is fight his fight, especially if a skilled pilot is onboard.
I initially turn hard with any adversary once! If I can force him to make the wrong choice, great. If not, I'll extend and take another shot at it when it suits ME...not HIM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I believe this sim to house some of the best sim pilots on the net...put one in a Yak and well...that is scary (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ice
-
I troll low for unsuspecting Vultures in my Yak. With the Yak you can dictate the entire fight from the engagement to the disengagement. If a pony runs on me, I just reverse and go the other way, 9 out of 10 times he will turn back to chase. Now if I could only keep myself out of those 4-1 furballs....
Cleaner
-
Yes, the Yak kills me a lot... but so do all the other planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) My point is I love turn fighting in ponies despite disadvantages, and there are times when I can and do win... You do need to hit with your first (only?) shot opportunity when turning with pony... or you will get outmaneuvered. So I have spent weeks (months?) refining my ho and rear quarter shots offline against drones. A solid splash of .50 cal fire from nose to tail will slow any plane down (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) I have learned Werner Voss's WWI technique in Fokker Dr.I of using rudder to skid and rake across opponent with gunfire from head on pass... the results are amazing with a lot of practice and a little luck. The problem is I usually run into one too many 20 mm pings from HO pass, especially agiainst Yak, N1K2, and Bf109. So, I try to be evasive until the last possible moment.
Happy to turn-n-burn in a boom-n-zoom plane,
Stephen the Eagle
aka streak
P.S. I spent some time flying the Yak a couple of nights... and racing against it too. I did well in Yak, but I will always be a pony man at heart... though a P-40B or C would be awesome (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) as well as an F4U-1A
[This message has been edited by streakeagle (edited 02-28-2001).]
-
Streakeagle,
Myself and many others I know will avoid the initial HO and gain a superior position after the first pass. Its extremely easy to dodge a HO, and many people have tried and true practices for avoiding them.
I dip my aircraft under the con's nose at about 1.4 in a HO. Sometimes they're trying to so hard to get the shot that they'll push negative g's (red out) and lose a lot of alt. It doesn't matter what they do, I have NEVER been hit in HO when I employed this tactic, and the more they maneuver for the HO the better advantage you're going to have when you turn back.
Servo
**MOL**
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Has anyone in the 13th actually engaged a co-alt/co-speed Yak 1:1 before? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKDejaVu
YES Deja.. I was that P-51..
Servo.. It was a REAL good fight. Your description is spot on. I did make the mistake and I knew it. At that point, I had to exercise the AAA option or fall to your cannon.
BTW, I knew you were low fuel based on my fuel level. I burned a lot that fight and new your YAK had much worse fuel endurance.
<SALUTE> to your flying. I am glad you had your CV where it was, being killed with no fuel left is not very fun.
BTW.. Thanks for the film. I didn't record on my end.
------------------
"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
midnight@13thtas.com
"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)
-
<S> Midnight! It was a -great- fight. I really thought you had me early on. If only all encounters in AH were like this!
Looking forward to another good battle in the future sometime.
Servo
**MOL**
-
Thanks again Servo...
It is funny that we in the 13th have a reputation of not flying in 1-v-1 engagements.
It is sad that this is looked at as a bad thing. The way I see it, as do my squadmates, we are in a squad to fly together, fight together, win battles together and fly home together.
I think it is better to be in a squad because of common interests and fighting styles, rathr than just being a "great group of guys" Which BTW, all of the 13th TAS are a GREAT group of guys (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and superior pilots too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I am not afraid to admit that I am not a very good 1-v-1 pilot. I much prefer to set up kills with a wingman over trying to get another guy to make the first mistake.
I was thinking the fuel situation as we were coming up to 12k. I knew I could hang on it long enough to outlast you, but I wanted the fight. One of the more memorable ones I must say. Especially because neither of us got the kill.
When we first got low, I wanted to try and stay clear of the base, but when I saw you closing, it was my only option.
As you were going RTB, one of my squad mates came on and I was explaining to him the situation and that I was currently tracking you. I laughed... "He is going to be pissed if I kill him RTB with no fuel (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)"
------------------
"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
midnight@13thtas.com
"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)
-
I bounced some F4 attacking my field, but he just wouldn't die. When his tail finally came off, I was almost completely out of ammo.
So, yeah, I would have been really pissed off if you got me with no ammo/fuel. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
That's why I headed for the CV without looking back.
If you had made me make a single turn or loop I would have definitely run dry.
Servo
**MOL**