Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Captain Virgil Hilts on February 27, 2008, 07:01:46 PM
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Well, the House has passed an $18 BILLION tax increase on the oil companies. I guess they'll tell us how that won't drive up the prices at the pump, and it'll also help us be less dependent on foreign oil. Gas went up $0.25 in the last week, so they increase taxes. Yeah, that'll help. A lot.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Well, the House has passed an $18 BILLION tax increase on the American oil consumer.....
There ya go..fixed.
Your right, Captain. Corporations chuckle when they are taxed..gets passed right along to us.
In my younger years I was an assistant manager at a Sonic Drive-In. I remember the day after a minimum wage increase went into effect..the owner had me out that night changing all the menus with the new price increases.
Its the same principle here.
Watch your nearest gas pump price for the effects of this latest tax increase.
Regards,
Sun
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Well, the House has passed an $18 BILLION tax increase on the oil companies. I guess they'll tell us how that won't drive up the prices at the pump, and it'll also help us be less dependent on foreign oil. Gas went up $0.25 in the last week, so they increase taxes. Yeah, that'll help. A lot.:rolleyes:
Gotta start to pay for those Tax Relief checks you're gettin mailed.
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It's 18 billion over 10 years.. Thats only 1.8 billion for each of the 5 oil compaines over a 10 year time frame. I really don't think that will cause gas prices to go up very much.. Bush probably has more effect on oil prices when he talks about Iran than this amount of money would.
btw it's not "new" taxes.. it's making them pay tax that they had got out of paying pior to this.
"The bill would roll back two lucrative tax breaks for the five largest U.S. oil companies. One helps manufacturers compete against foreign companies; the other gives American companies a tax credit related to oil and gas extraction outside the country. Democrats estimated that those current breaks would save the oil companies $17.65 billion in taxes over the next 10 years.
I really don't think $180 million/year per company is really going to hurt their bottom line when those 5 companies profited a $123 billion last year alone.
Just more Republican scare tactics.. as if that's really gonng to drive fuel prices up...
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interesting read crocket.
it's nice to see numbers and facts.
;)
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that is to say, it's makes for a more convincing argument.
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Originally posted by JB88
interesting read crocket.
it's nice to see numbers and facts.
;)
Yes something else that's funny, is Microsoft was just fined 1.3 billion by the EU.. Yet I don't see the Republicans jumping up and down claiming those dirty Europeans are gonna drive up the price of computers.
:rofl
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Originally posted by MORAY37
Gotta start to pay for those Tax Relief checks you're gettin Nailed.
*Fixed* :D
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Microsoft doesn't make computers. Just thought I'd toss that in.
Profit, by the way, is what makes companies grow, it's where investment comes from. There is nothing wrong with making a profit. If profits were finite, and limited, the US economy would never have made it much past the late 1700's. There is plenty to go around because there is an unlimited amount of opportunity, although it requires getting up off ones butt and not begging the Government to hand out something unearned to someone else.
There is something grossly wrong with accepting the idea that some one else has the authority to determine what others do with the rewards of their effort.
If you think for one minute an oil company making billions in profit is keeping you from getting ahead in life, you are sadly mistaken and being played for a fool.
I really don't think $180 million/year per company is really going to hurt their bottom line when those 5 companies profited a $123 billion last year alone.
If this was your money you would be offended. If this was your money, frankly, you wouldn't have the frame of mind you have on the subject as you cannot possibly be successful and subscribe to the socialist mindset.
It is their money. If you think the government could do better managing the private sector, the pro's over in the former soviet union couldn't do it, what makes you think these amateur Democrats can pull it off.
It is frightening how easy it is for some to accept the idea that others should be managed. When your lifestyle is managed in a way you don't approve of, then will you get it?
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Originally posted by Sundowner
There ya go..fixed.
Your right, Captain. Corporations chuckle when they are taxed..gets passed right along to us.
In my younger years I was an assistant manager at a Sonic Drive-In. I remember the day after a minimum wage increase went into effect..the owner had me out that night changing all the menus with the new price increases.
Its the same principle here.
Watch your nearest gas pump price for the effects of this latest tax increase.
Regards,
Sun
They don't chuckle so hard. Even these big evil oil companies adhere to the laws of supply and demand.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Even these big evil oil companies manipulate the laws of supply and demand.
Fixed
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Originally posted by rpm
Fixed
:noid
PLEASE, tell us all again how the oil companies blew up a refinery, and had Hugo Chavez steal their assets and stop selling them oil, so they could raise the price. Remind us all how China's ever increasing oil demands have no effect on prices. While you're at it, explain to us all how commodities day traders gaming oil futures to make a living has no effect at all on prices.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by ROC
Microsoft doesn't make computers. Just thought I'd toss that in.
Profit, by the way, is what makes companies grow, it's where investment comes from. There is nothing wrong with making a profit. If profits were finite, and limited, the US economy would never have made it much past the late 1700's. There is plenty to go around because there is an unlimited amount of opportunity, although it requires getting up off ones butt and not begging the Government to hand out something unearned to someone else.
There is something grossly wrong with accepting the idea that some one else has the authority to determine what others do with the rewards of their effort.
If you think for one minute an oil company making billions in profit is keeping you from getting ahead in life, you are sadly mistaken and being played for a fool.
If this was your money you would be offended. If this was your money, frankly, you wouldn't have the frame of mind you have on the subject as you cannot possibly be successful and subscribe to the socialist mindset.
It is their money. If you think the government could do better managing the private sector, the pro's over in the former soviet union couldn't do it, what makes you think these amateur Democrats can pull it off.
It is frightening how easy it is for some to accept the idea that others should be managed. When your lifestyle is managed in a way you don't approve of, then will you get it?
You don't REALLY think people who think it is okay to take other people's money are ever going to get it, do you? They'll NEVER understand that taxing the crap out of EVERYTHING that generates a profit and employs people in the U.S. will drive it ALL out of the country. Not even when they wake up and don't have a job. Only stupid and arrogant fools think profit is a dirty word.
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well crock it.. I guess the mean old oil companies are just gonna suck it up and not pass it on to us?
they work on a profit margin.. it matters not what the costs are or what brought them on. if the oil costs more.. they pass it on to us.. if it costs more to get out of the ground.. they pass it on to us.. if the government charges them more to do business.. they pass it on to us.
You like numbers? the real number is 9% they make 9% profit. I don't think they will settle for much less than that.
And.. anyone here know what the government will do with this money? Explore for oil? build nuke plants? nope.
lazs
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080228/ap_on_bi_ge/energy_taxes;_ylt=AlyEPrZ_tKWs6jGHnRefKZsDW7oF
"The bill would offer tax credits for more energy efficient homes and a credit for "plug-in" gas-electric hybrid cars that would capture electricity off the power grid, once such cars become available in showrooms."
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What? "gas-electric hybrid cars that would capture electricity off the power grid"? Do you mean cars that you plug in an electrical outlet at night? Is my TV "capturing electricity off the power grid"? Some of these AP articles are comical.
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It would make more sense to give the oil companies tax breaks to explore for oil offshore and in Alaska and to give us all tax breaks for installing energy efficient things in our homes rather than to add to our burden on one end and then take away from it on the other.. the whole while growing the size and scope of government.
It looks like a way to hire a couple thousand more government employees and increase the size of government.
lazs
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Originally posted by ROC
Microsoft doesn't make computers. Just thought I'd toss that in.
Profit, by the way, is what makes companies grow, it's where investment comes from. There is nothing wrong with making a profit. If profits were finite, and limited, the US economy would never have made it much past the late 1700's. There is plenty to go around because there is an unlimited amount of opportunity, although it requires getting up off ones butt and not begging the Government to hand out something unearned to someone else.
There is something grossly wrong with accepting the idea that some one else has the authority to determine what others do with the rewards of their effort.
If you think for one minute an oil company making billions in profit is keeping you from getting ahead in life, you are sadly mistaken and being played for a fool.
If this was your money you would be offended. If this was your money, frankly, you wouldn't have the frame of mind you have on the subject as you cannot possibly be successful and subscribe to the socialist mindset.
It is their money. If you think the government could do better managing the private sector, the pro's over in the former soviet union couldn't do it, what makes you think these amateur Democrats can pull it off.
It is frightening how easy it is for some to accept the idea that others should be managed. When your lifestyle is managed in a way you don't approve of, then will you get it?
ROC, I believe what I and many americans get irritated over is the fact that "helping" big business with tax credits and breaks can sometimes get out of hand. (I know it is an important part of keeping the market strong, but) Over the last several years the oil industry has recorded the largest profits ever on record. At which point do you stop helping the guy out so much that is doing so well while the rest struggle. Its not communism, its called being fair. Many saw what happened after Katrina where gas prices rose and never returned to pre-katrina prices, yet Exxon recorded the highest profit in history that 1/4.
( Price gouging is a frequently pejorative reference to a seller's asking a price that is much higher than what is seen as 'fair' under the circumstances. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a felony that applies in some of the United States only during civil emergencies. In less precise usage, it can refer either to prices obtained by practices inconsistent with a competitive free market, or to windfall profits. )
This affects consumers in many different ways. With higher fuel prices, the cost of everything that needs to be shipped otr goes up. Just look at grocery prices lately. So it can get out of hand and should be watched closely and monitored and adjusted accordingly and effectively for the sake of what is right. :aok
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the more they screw the economy, the better they'll look in Nov
I think any tax you did not pay yesterday but you pay today is a NEW tax to your bottom line TODAY regardless if you paid the same taxes years ago or not
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Originally posted by SkyRock
ROC, I believe what I and many americans get irritated over is the fact that "helping" big business with tax credits and breaks can sometimes get out of hand. (I know it is an important part of keeping the market strong, but) Over the last several years the oil industry has recorded the largest profits ever on record. At which point do you stop helping the guy out so much that is doing so well while the rest struggle. Its not communism, its called being fair. Many saw what happened after Katrina where gas prices rose and never returned to pre-katrina prices, yet Exxon recorded the highest profit in history that 1/4.
( Price gouging is a frequently pejorative reference to a seller's asking a price that is much higher than what is seen as 'fair' under the circumstances. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a felony that applies in some of the United States only during civil emergencies. In less precise usage, it can refer either to prices obtained by practices inconsistent with a competitive free market, or to windfall profits. )
This affects consumers in many different ways. With higher fuel prices, the cost of everything that needs to be shipped otr goes up. Just look at grocery prices lately. So it can get out of hand and should be watched closely and monitored and adjusted accordingly and effectively for the sake of what is right. :aok
Hey, I know y'all are busy arguing ~ I just want to interrupt real quick to say one quick thing to SR.
SR, I saw you wrote something longer than "shut it twit boi" and was nicely surprised to see that you have excellent, excellent spelling and grammar. :)
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Originally posted by SkyRock
ROC, I believe what I and many americans get irritated over is the fact that "helping" big business with tax credits and breaks can sometimes get out of hand. (I know it is an important part of keeping the market strong, but) Over the last several years the oil industry has recorded the largest profits ever on record. At which point do you stop helping the guy out so much that is doing so well while the rest struggle. Its not communism, its called being fair. Many saw what happened after Katrina where gas prices rose and never returned to pre-katrina prices, yet Exxon recorded the highest profit in history that 1/4.
( Price gouging is a frequently pejorative reference to a seller's asking a price that is much higher than what is seen as 'fair' under the circumstances. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a felony that applies in some of the United States only during civil emergencies. In less precise usage, it can refer either to prices obtained by practices inconsistent with a competitive free market, or to windfall profits. )
This affects consumers in many different ways. With higher fuel prices, the cost of everything that needs to be shipped otr goes up. Just look at grocery prices lately. So it can get out of hand and should be watched closely and monitored and adjusted accordingly and effectively for the sake of what is right. :aok
Which reveals the whole evil of government subsidies. Once we start subsidizing anyone, be it an individual, corporation, farmer or school district they become addicted to that money and begin to depend on it.
When we subsidize companies and then remove those subsidies they will without doubt raise prices. As Lasz says, they work on margin, a concept that escapes most Americans BTW.
We have the same problems with governments subsidizing other governments, The feds give $ to the states who give to the county as so down the line. The local govs lower taxes or increase expenditures because they are getting his "free $$$". Then when for what ever reason that $$ is reduced they find themselves in crisis. Now they either have to cut their pet projects (not gonna happen) or raise local taxes/fees.
Unfortunately it's too late to change this. Too many are far too dependant on these government subsidies.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
:noid
PLEASE, tell us all again how the oil companies blew up a refinery, and had Hugo Chavez steal their assets and stop selling them oil, so they could raise the price. Remind us all how China's ever increasing oil demands have no effect on prices. While you're at it, explain to us all how commodities day traders gaming oil futures to make a living has no effect at all on prices.
:rolleyes:
We get the majority of our oil supply from Canada. Will you please tell us how Hugo Chavez, China and the rest have interrupted that?
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Originally posted by rpm
We get the majority of our oil supply from Canada. Will you please tell us how Hugo Chavez, China and the rest have interrupted that?
Well, that's REALLY easy. Oil is a commodity, a traded commodity. Therefore, oil futures are traded. Any time there is ANY interruption real or implied, any where in the chain, the price of ALL oil is affected. It's called basic economics, supply and demand. World wide demand sets the price everywhere, except places like Saudi Arabia. Same with any other commodity. Gold for example.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
ROC, I believe what I and many americans get irritated over is the fact that "helping" big business with tax credits and breaks can sometimes get out of hand. (I know it is an important part of keeping the market strong, but) Over the last several years the oil industry has recorded the largest profits ever on record. At which point do you stop helping the guy out so much that is doing so well while the rest struggle. Its not communism, its called being fair. Many saw what happened after Katrina where gas prices rose and never returned to pre-katrina prices, yet Exxon recorded the highest profit in history that 1/4.
( Price gouging is a frequently pejorative reference to a seller's asking a price that is much higher than what is seen as 'fair' under the circumstances. In precise, legal usage, it is the name of a felony that applies in some of the United States only during civil emergencies. In less precise usage, it can refer either to prices obtained by practices inconsistent with a competitive free market, or to windfall profits. )
This affects consumers in many different ways. With higher fuel prices, the cost of everything that needs to be shipped otr goes up. Just look at grocery prices lately. So it can get out of hand and should be watched closely and monitored and adjusted accordingly and effectively for the sake of what is right. :aok
Exactlly.. it has nothing to do with screwing over big oil. It's about making them pay their fair share just like everone else has too.
These guys screw us over anytime there is a peep out something with oil.. The price goes up. As Skyrock said, they have made record profits since Katrina. It's not because there was more consumpsion it's because they took avantage of the system that allowed them to over charge for oil and fuel.
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Originally posted by crockett
It's 18 billion over 10 years.. Thats only 1.8 billion for each of the 5 oil compaines over a 10 year time frame. I really don't think that will cause gas prices to go up very much.. Bush probably has more effect on oil prices when he talks about Iran than this amount of money would.
btw it's not "new" taxes.. it's making them pay tax that they had got out of paying pior to this.
"The bill would roll back two lucrative tax breaks for the five largest U.S. oil companies. One helps manufacturers compete against foreign companies; the other gives American companies a tax credit related to oil and gas extraction outside the country. Democrats estimated that those current breaks would save the oil companies $17.65 billion in taxes over the next 10 years.
I really don't think $180 million/year per company is really going to hurt their bottom line when those 5 companies profited a $123 billion last year alone.
Just more Republican scare tactics.. as if that's really gonng to drive fuel prices up...
It still raises prices even if only a little.
we fall for it because it is a big bad oil company, but would you pay if they just said i want you to pay more to the gov.since oil is so high then we will send it back to you? no,
so they tell you the oil company will be taxed but you and i will still have to pay it!
Obama want's to tax the oil companies even more and then give the tax money raised back to the people, so we pay the tax to the oil company, they send it to the gov.,
then the gov. sends it back to us!
why not just let me keep it too start with?
because i am not going to get it back, the gov. will give it too someone else, who probably didnt buy $70,000 worth of fuel like i do every year!i think its called redistribution of wealth and it isn't good!
I spend maybe ten times more on fuel than most others but i dont make anymore than most after expences, so will i be taxed fairly? no
I will pay ten times more in fuel tax than everyone else but i bet i dont get it all back!
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Originally posted by WWhiskey
It still raises prices even if only a little.
we fall for it because it is a big bad oil company, but would you pay if they just said i want you to pay more to the gov.since oil is so high then we will send it back to you? no,
so they tell you the oil company will be taxed but you and i will still have to pay it!
Obama want's to tax the oil companies even more and then give the tax money raised back to the people, so we pay the tax to the oil company, they send it to the gov.,
then the gov. sends it back to us!
why not just let me keep it too start with?
because i am not going to get it back, the gov. will give it too someone else, who probably didnt buy $70,000 worth of fuel like i do every year!i think its called redistribution of wealth and it isn't good!
I spend maybe ten times more on fuel than most others but i dont make anymore than most after expences, so will i be taxed fairly? no
I will pay ten times more in fuel tax than everyone else but i bet i dont get it all back!
No it doesn't that's the whole thing you guys are missing the point on. It's "taxes" on money they have earned. If they charge more they will be taxed more. You can't pass the price of taxes onto the consumer it just don't work that way.
It's not like the price of oil is going up. Their federal taxes are going up, it wont be passed on to the consumer. All this crying all over the net is just typical Republican scare tactics that have no basis in reality.
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Originally posted by crockett
No it doesn't that's the whole thing you guys are missing the point on. It's "taxes" on money they have earned. If they charge more they will be taxed more. You can't pass the price of taxes onto the consumer it just don't work that way.
It's not like the price of oil is going up. Their federal taxes are going up, it wont be passed on to the consumer. All this crying all over the net is just typical Republican scare tactics that have no basis in reality.
Interesting......so here in PA the sales tax rate is 6%, your saying that if PA raised the tax rate to 7% my bill for anything taxed wouldn't go up, the company I was buying from would just eat the difference? Somehow I doubt that.
Oh you say its a tax on their profits? So they wouldn't increase their prices to compensate?
Oh it's tax breaks on equipment and exploration costs? Well they would never raise prices to cover the taxes......right?
:aok
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If they raise there prices.. to compensate.. guess what they earn more then the "pay more taxes". It's kinda like a dog chasing it's tail. It don't get anywhere. They can't pass the taxes on "earnings" onto the consumer it comes out of "their" profits.
Btw I find it's extremely funny that all the right wingers across the internet are using this to claim the democrats are going to raise the price of fuel.
In 2000 the average price of fuel was $1.54
In 2008 I don't think there is a average yet but gas around here is over $3/gal.
George Bush has been president in that time and the price of gas has doubled.
:rofl :rofl :rofl but somehow it's all the Democrats fault..
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Guys you should really read some number of the articles about this. It does not stop the oil companies from raising prices. Their losses to taxes will be a drop in the bucket. It's about redistributing tax revenues(wealth) to other energy providers and alternative energy groups who are lobbying the democrats for federal subsidies.
The last time this bill was pushed it died. It has only been passed in the House, it is not Law yet. The Dems are going to try and fast track it through the Senate next to not allow republicans any say in the matter.
Bush has promised to veto it. Obama has promised if elected to tax the oil companies into the ground and redistribute thier wealth to who?
I guess if Obama gets elected we will all have free energy for four years, or until the energey providors have to be bailed out by the government because they arent taking in any revenue. At that point Herr Obama will ask us to make sacrifices at the pumps(taxes).................
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Originally posted by crockett
If they raise there prices.. to compensate.. guess what they earn more then the "pay more taxes". It's kinda like a dog chasing it's tail. It don't get anywhere. They can't pass the taxes on "earnings" onto the consumer it comes out of "their" profits.
Btw I find it's extremely funny that all the right wingers across the internet are using this to claim the democrats are going to raise the price of fuel.
In 2000 the average price of fuel was $1.54
In 2008 I don't think there is a average yet but gas around here is over $3/gal.
George Bush has been president in that time and the price of gas has doubled.
:rofl :rofl :rofl but somehow it's all the Democrats fault..
That's the DUMBEST crock of crap yet. If you increase the amount you tax me on my profit, I increase my prices to compensate. It's that simple. I expect, and require, a certain amount of profit in order to have a decent standard of living. Every time the federal, state, or local government has increased my taxes, I have been forced to increase my prices. I have the same bills to pay in my personal life as anyone does.
For most of my adult life, I have either owned my own business, or at least participated in the running of a business, except about 5 years, and even then I had a part time business. In EVERY case, taxes were a business expense, and when any business expense increased, the cost of the product or service increased. PERIOD. Not just my own business, but EVERY business.
The oil industry is just like any other business, especially one that size. You have stock holders. Those stock holders expect a certain return on their investment, and honestly, 9% is not a great return. Drop below that, and stock holders become unhappy. Then they sell. When they sell in numbers, the price drops. Ignorant people look at GROSS profits for an entire industry and "decide" that "those companies make too much money", regardless of the profit margin or the size of the business. Well, 9% of a world wide commodity industry is GOING TO BE A HUGE NUMBER. Hell, ONE PERCENT would be huge. In the eyes of fools, the oil industry income will ALWAYS be obscene, because the fools have no grasp on economics.
Let's explore this theory on taxing and price controls. What happened when we had price controls on gasoline? We didn't have enough! I sat in line to buy gas to go to school and work. I went to the Co-Op to buy diesel for my tractor and they didn't HAVE any. What happened when a bunch of clowns came up with this brilliant idea called the "luxury tax"? They taxed yachts and expensive cars. So the wealthy just bought or traded used yachts and high priced cars. Who suffered? The people working to MAKE those items. The wealthy didn't suffer, they still HAD their "luxury items". But the poor working people who WERE making those items when the wealthy bought new things BEFORE the tax suddenly either didn't have a job at all or barely had a job, at reduced pay and hours. Oh, and revenue DROPPED. What happened when Nixon tried price controls? Rampant inflation occurred anyway, and so did the recession.
People go into business to MAKE MONEY. They take risks, they go through extra hassles, endure more stress, and put in more hours. PROFIT is what compensates their efforts. If you don't make more money, why go through the hassles?
If you think you're going to tax ANY business that sells a product or service to the public and they ARE NOT going to pass the cost of that tax on to the end consumer, you don't understand business or basic economics. You do not stay in business if you keep absorbing costs.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Unfortunately it's too late to change this. Too many are far too dependant on these government subsidies.
It's never too late to change this.
Saying no is one of the simplest things to do.
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A tax break is NOT a subsidy, nor is it a hand out. It's just the government NOT taking money that did not BELONG to the government to begin with.
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Crocket
so why would they not charge more ,make more, then pay more, what is to stop them? they are in bussines just like you or me, they make money and if you tax those dollars, they will try to recover that profit elsewhere, there only source of income is you and me so in the end yes the profit margin is less but the gross is greater so they still get your money, only now they have helped the gov. get more of our money in taxes and we thought it was a good idea!
this is not a republican scare tactic, this is reality!
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ahem
As Skyrock said, they have made record profits since Katrina.
The refineries and drilling rigs were put back in production Days after Katrina.
The Government still can't get out of their mess down there.
Yeah, taxes didn't do squat and those miserable profit mongering greedy bastages kept the fuel flowing.
What, you think that moronic mayor could have handled it better?
Taxes are taking money from Productive Areas and redistributing it to into areas that do not produce.
I own a newer mustang, full size 3/4 ton chevy van purely for recreation, a toyota camry, and a motorcycle. I drive hundreds of miles Each and Every Day.
I couldn't care less what the gas costs. It's part of what I do. If I spent my day crying about the cost of gas I would spend most of my time worrying instead of being rather comfortable. If you are concerned about something as minor as the cost of fuel, rethink your efforts, don't blame someone successful.
I fight daily to insure that what I, and those around me, earn remain under My and Their control, because I intend to do with my profits as I wish, I know better what I want to do than any government who thinks they are owed what I built. I will pay taxes towards First, defense of this nation, then Education. After that, fuel taxes should pay for Roads, property taxes take care of levies, development fees handle expansion of infrastructure.
Anything after that is waste. You cannot create a job simply to pay someone off and expect a positive return. You cannot take a productive dollar and hand it off to an unproductive person and expect that dollar to grow. Katrina is the single biggest example of what should have been a major economic boon turned into a fiasco. A poor underdeveloped area was wiped out. The job opportunities to rebuild that region are staggering, in and of itself could easily lead that area out of an economic downturn. But wait, let's not get carried away, the Government needs to jump in and divert productive monies into wasteful irrelevant programs.
I was laid off in 91 from a 55k per year job. In 91 at my age, that was good money. I worked 3 part time jobs after that, gal I worked with went on welfare.
Over the following 2 years she plopped out 2 more kids, her 14 year old had a kid, and kept drawing welfare. I worked. I ended up starting a business, and Closed it due to the taxes I owed exceeded the income I could draw for my own efforts.
I worked, got penalized. She squirted kids and reaped the benefits. I have no sympathy, absolutely no support of the tax system as it stands. I could have employed myself and 1 other person, in a recession, yet the tax burden alone told me it was simply not worth working that hard to pay for someone else. You will never convince me differently.
The problem isn't the corporations paying their fair share. The problem is some lazy morons think someone else, like me, Owes them what I earned. Those aren't my kids, I never played in her sand box. I find it wholly Appalling that I paid while she sat, My wife and family went without because I refused to look to someone else.
You complain about some corp making a profit like it has anything what so ever to do with your existence.
The "problem" is people expect far more than they even remotely deserve, and more and more people are buying into it.
Get this, at some point, you that support these concepts are going to have to accept Your lives being defined by someone else. You will Not Like This. Quit asking for it.
You are being led around like stupid sheep with feel good sound bites.
There are wolves waiting for you, better open your eyes. Those wolves are hoping beyond hope that you really buy into the evil corporate empire line. Geez people, I know you are smarter than this.
Come on. I've hear people saying they are canceling their vacations because of the cost of fuel.
700 Mile trip is $28.00 more today than it was in 2005. Same trip I make twice a year, every year. So Friggin What! Chump change for crying out loud. You would still have made the trip. 28 bucks?? Honestly?
Now you are honestly concerned, and buying into the national tragedy of the evil empire over chump change? Guess what they do with that money. Spend it, buying stuff someone else makes, Save it, making money available for loans that support, say, your car loan perhaps.. Credit card.. You guys better be careful what you ask for, you are liable to get it.
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The government makes more per gallon of gas in taxes then the oil companies do in profit. For most states, often times the government makes at least 3-4x more.
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Originally posted by WWhiskey
Crocket
so why would they not charge more ,make more, then pay more, what is to stop them? they are in bussines just like you or me, they make money and if you tax those dollars, they will try to recover that profit elsewhere, there only source of income is you and me so in the end yes the profit margin is less but the gross is greater so they still get your money, only now they have helped the gov. get more of our money in taxes and we thought it was a good idea!
this is not a republican scare tactic, this is reality!
First off oil is sold as a commodity the oil companies don't set the price the market does. The only way the oil companies can effect the price is by limiting the supply. Big news they do that already.. why yea think we are paying double the amount as when Clinton was in office.
$180 million a year per oil company is not even a drop in the bucket for these oil companies. You guys are screaming like thats going to raise the gas price by $5 a gal or something.
Even in the wildest dreams that it did raise the price because of this tax (which would be illegal) .. It wouldn't even equate to .01 cent. Even if it was a cent it would take 100 gallons to equal a dollar. Do you burn 100 gallons a week or even a month? Even if you burned 100 gallons a week it would cost you $4 a month is that going to bankrupt you?
This is a non issue other than a sad attempt to bash a Democratic Congress for doing what should have been done a long time ago. A industry that is the richest industry in this country and the world, does not need "all" the govt subsidies we give them. When a industry can profit 123 billion in a year it's time to remove the govt tit from their mouth.
Meanwhile the price of gas has gone up 100% under Bush admin yet you guys are crying about "maybe" a single penny per gallon. I don't feel like doing the number crunching but I wouldn't be surprised if you added that 18billion to the amount of fuel sold over the next 10 years. I bet it wouldn't even equate to .0001 of a cent.
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When a industry can profit 123 billion in a year it's time to remove the govt tit from their mouth.
Allowing them to Keep their money is Them sucking on a tit?
Ok :rofl So who's sucking if it's taken away?
You do understand, don't you, that you don't have to buy their gas? Use the Chinese model, ride a bike. Walk. Take a bus. No one is Forcing anyone to use the fuel.
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Originally posted by ROC
Allowing them to Keep their money is Them sucking on a tit?
Ok :rofl So who's sucking if it's taken away?
You do understand, don't you, that you don't have to buy their gas? Use the Chinese model, ride a bike. Walk. Take a bus. No one is Forcing anyone to use the fuel.
Consider it cheap cost of labor for using the United States military to fight wars on behaf of big oil's profits. You think we would have our military in the middle east if there wasn't oil there?
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Since when is it illegal to raise your prices because the government raised your taxes and in so doing raised your cost of doing business? Show me the statute. Because EVERY business in the COUNTRY is violating it. IF it exists. But I've been owning and/or operating businesses for almost 30 years, and I've never seen nor heard of such.
We're not crying about the increase of the cost of gas, we're angry that the government has decided to pick our pockets again and tell us they aren't doing it.
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Originally posted by crockett
First off oil is sold as a commodity the oil companies don't set the price the market does. The only way the oil companies can effect the price is by limiting the supply. Big news they do that already.. why yea think we are paying double the amount as when Clinton was in office.
$180 million a year per oil company is not even a drop in the bucket for these oil companies. You guys are screaming like thats going to raise the gas price by $5 a gal or something.
Even in the wildest dreams that it did raise the price because of this tax (which would be illegal) .. It wouldn't even equate to .01 cent. Even if it was a cent it would take 100 gallons to equal a dollar. Do you burn 100 gallons a week or even a month?
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Reply:Try 500 to 700 per week
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Even if you burned 100 gallons a week it would cost you $4 a month is that going to bankrupt you?
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Reply:$28
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This is a non issue other than a sad attempt to bash a Democratic Congress for doing what should have been done a long time ago.
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Reply:
about 7 years ago no one in this country had ever seen $2.00 fuel, as the price rose the dem.s said they wanted to tax big oil,and did too some extent, the result was an almost instant rise too @3.00 fuel as well as a major rise in the price of natural gas and propane!
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A industry that is the richest industry in this country and the world, does not need "all" the govt subsidies we give them. When a industry can profit 123 billion in a year it's time to remove the govt tit from their mouth.
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Reply:
we give them some of those subsidies so they will drill in this part of the world and pay the taxes here, when they could easely go to other parts of the world and tell us and our taxes to go to heck. why would anyone want to pay tax when they didnt have too? why would they want too drill here when it costs more to do so?
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Meanwhile the price of gas has gone up 100% under Bush admin
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Reply:
like you said the market sets the price not the pres. but yes they can raise the price of fuel by adding another tax too it, and the market will not care
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yet you guys are crying about "maybe" a single penny per gallon.
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Reply:
the fed makes more in profits on a gallon of fuel than the oil company!, why dont we say enough is enough to the gov. you all hear about the obscene profits of big oil yet no one says anything about the obscene profits of big gov.
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I don't feel like doing the number crunching but I wouldn't be surprised if you added that 18billion to the amount of fuel sold over the next 10 years. I bet it wouldn't even equate to .0001 of a cent.
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Reply:
world consumption of oil is127.8 million barrels per day, or 1480 barrels per second. the U.S. consumes 19.6 million barrels per day, so yes in 100 days the tax debt could be paid, but the speculators in the market will drive the price up just because they can, making the oil company more money while taking in your taxes for the gov.
my point is taxes will not help anything, they will only cost us all more of our own money, then the oil company will make interest on that money while they hold it for the gov., then the gov. will make interest on it while they hold it finally we will get it back and it will be worth less, lets not give the gov. anymore of our money
every penny is important to me, my bussiness runs on fuel, my profit margin is effected by the price of fuel and i dont like anybody trying to effect my profit margin for no better reason than too get even with big oil
so why do you think you need to take even a penny out of my pocket? thats what you are saying , thats what you mean, well its only a penny for you and A penny for someone else who has a pet project and some other gov. official with big dreams wants a dime a dollar, pretty soon i have lost my dollar a penny at a time because you thought you knew how to spend my money better than me! thanks bud
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I believe that crock it wants to nationalize big business.
I am all for letting anyone... anyone.. keep more of the money they earn by lowering taxes. every bit that someone else doesn't pay helps me in the long run.
lazs
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Since when is it illegal to raise your prices because the government raised your taxes and in so doing raised your cost of doing business? Show me the statute. Because EVERY business in the COUNTRY is violating it. IF it exists. But I've been owning and/or operating businesses for almost 30 years, and I've never seen nor heard of such.
We're not crying about the increase of the cost of gas, we're angry that the government has decided to pick our pockets again and tell us they aren't doing it.
How exactly is the govt picking your pockets? The govt didn't raise the cost of gas. For the love a ****** god.. They raised a "earnings" tax.. Do you understand WTF earnings are? It's a tax on "their" profits.
Do you understand the concept of paying tax on profits? Do you understand you can not legally pass the tax burden onto your consumer? Do you understrand these companies have to disclose public financials?
Do you understand that in 2005 138,142,791,000 gallons of gas were sold in the United states? This "tax" is a "grand total" of 18 billion over 10 years from 5 companies. Do you understand that's' not even .0001 of a cent per gallon?
Can you freaking grasp that concept? Even if they somehow had a way to dictate the price of oil to make up for that. Do you think .0001 of a cent is going to raise the price of gas so much that you go bankrupt?
You guys crying about "maybe" a .0001 cent increase like it's the end of the world. Yet all this whining that's going on all over the net will likely rasie the price 50 cents.
It's like talking to a freaking wall I swear..
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Originally posted by lazs2
I believe that crock it wants to nationalize big business.
I am all for letting anyone... anyone.. keep more of the money they earn by lowering taxes. every bit that someone else doesn't pay helps me in the long run.
lazs
I believe some of you are as dumb as a box of rocks. But hey what else is new.. :lol
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Originally posted by WWhiskey
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Reply:
world consumption of oil is127.8 million barrels per day, or 1480 barrels per second. the U.S. consumes 19.6 million barrels per day, so yes in 100 days the tax debt could be paid, but the speculators in the market will drive the price up just because they can, making the oil company more money while taking in your taxes for the gov.
my point is taxes will not help anything, they will only cost us all more of our own money, then the oil company will make interest on that money while they hold it for the gov., then the gov. will make interest on it while they hold it finally we will get it back and it will be worth less, lets not give the gov. anymore of our money
every penny is important to me, my bussiness runs on fuel, my profit margin is effected by the price of fuel and i dont like anybody trying to effect my profit margin for no better reason than too get even with big oil
so why do you think you need to take even a penny out of my pocket? thats what you are saying , thats what you mean, well its only a penny for you and A penny for someone else who has a pet project and some other gov. official with big dreams wants a dime a dollar, pretty soon i have lost my dollar a penny at a time because you thought you knew how to spend my money better than me! thanks bud
Speculators are going to drive the price up because of all the whining here in the O club and everywhere else. Anyone that actually crunched the numbers will have already figured out this isn't going to drive the cost of fuel up.
All the people crying about it on the other hand will likely have an effect on the price. So look in the mirror and blame your self.
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Originally posted by crockett
How exactly is the govt picking your pockets? The govt didn't raise the cost of gas. For the love a ****** god.. They raised a "earnings" tax.. Do you understand WTF earnings are? It's a tax on "their" profits.
Do you understand the concept of paying tax on profits? Do you understand you can not legally pass the tax burden onto your consumer? Do you understrand these companies have to disclose public financials?
Do you understand that in 2005 138,142,791,000 gallons of gas were sold in the United states? This "tax" is a "grand total" of 18 billion over 10 years from 5 companies. Do you understand that's' not even .0001 of a cent per gallon?
Can you freaking grasp that concept? Even if they somehow had a way to dictate the price of oil to make up for that. Do you think .0001 of a cent is going to raise the price of gas so much that you go bankrupt?
You guys crying about "maybe" a .0001 cent increase like it's the end of the world. Yet all this whining that's going on all over the net will likely rasie the price 50 cents.
It's like talking to a freaking wall I swear..
The government raised the amount of taxes they are taking from the oil companies, thus the oil companies raise the price to compensate.
Your argument about taxing earnings is laughable. It's like me telling an employee who wants a raise they should be happy I don't give them one cause they'll pay less taxes.
Yea there's a wall in here alright....
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I just read the bill that passed the House. It is a tax hike of only one industry working in the United States. Not a corporate hike across the board for all industries.
That is by any american definition of fair play descrimitory. The bill was passed by the Dem majority in the House. The senate is trying to fast track it to keep the republicans from having any input on it.
They are confiscating money from the Oil companies to give to other industries that may never make a profit or survive as sound competitive entities. In essence they are forcing the Oil Companies to finance other companies research and tax credits sight unseen. There is no language in the bill making it law that the Oil companies cannot pass this along at the pumps to make up the loss. Socialism in action.
This is the Dems raiding the Oil companies to pay for their pet projects. Government Theft under the guise of law.
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Is this the one where they are going to shift the subsidy from the oil industry (republican focus, mainly) to agribusiness/biofuels (democratic focus, mainly)? Or am I thinking about one of the Clinton or Obama smokescreen activist positions from the recent debate? Piss away more of my tax dollars, just a change in the toilet.
why yea think we are paying double the amount as when Clinton was in office.
It was about 2000 when the Chinese and Indian economies began to reach critical mass following the globalization push that began at the end of the cold war. You then had the shocks of 911 and volatility related to the Middle East ever since.
Also, it appears that OPEC is finally able to hold together on its production quotas. At the time (2001) OPEC was trying to support a price basket in the mid $20 range. Volatility spikes due to various disruptions in the supply infrastructure relative to refining capacity and Chinese and Indian demand (we have actually had more of a natural demand driven hike than artificial OPEC hike) showed OPEC that the the consumption patterns of the US motoring public, among other consumers, was resistant to higher prices in the $2 range.
However, we have to a great extent actually been in a more pure supply and demand market with demand outstripping production capability. That should have changed by now, one would think, or be starting to soon. OPEC may decide on a new artificial production quota to keep oil at least around $60, or whatever the market will bear without reducing demand or promoting things like oil sands or oil shale.
It's amazing though, how the all powerful oil companies saw margins tank through much of the 1990s when production outstripped demand due to market factors. How could they allow that to happen, being all powerful? Shareholders sure would have like today's profits in the 1990s.
Prices were so low, that everybody started buying huge trucks to use as single person commuter cars and such. Only thing missing from the Canyonaros were the tail fins. But now that international market factors have changed, the oil companies MUST be manipulating things.
The problem is, everyone still wants to drive the Canyonaros and not the fuel efficient cars they replaced. Like it or not, post 1973 is the reality for US drivers, and the 1990s were an exception, not the rule. And with globalization we have more and more people sucking up the oil to add to those pressures.
You really want to stick it to "the man?" Ditch the Canyonaro for an economy sub compact. Impact demand, even a few percent, and you will see a real impact on price. If we get into full blown recession mode that will likely be the case as well since consumer patters will change and demand must take a hit.
Charon
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crockit, again, SHOW ME THE STATUTE that says a business cannot pass along the cost increase of taxes to the consumer. Either show us all that statute making it illegal, or stop claiming it exists.
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To Crockett, and most liberals, profits are more immoral than rape and murder.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/BrickWall.jpg/800px-BrickWall.jpg)
Yep thats what I'm talking too..
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Well, crock-it, I see you have no statute to post, you're merely pulling imaginary garbage from the same orifice you get the rest of your facts from. I ask you for facts, you post a picture of bricks. Come back when you have the facts to back up your statement "it's illegal to raise your prices because you get a tax increase", little boy. You know NOTHING of how business or the economy works.