Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Rich46yo on February 28, 2008, 11:52:18 AM
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Im trying to get a feel for how rudders fit into aerial combat. Im not talking landing and taking off here.
Thoughts???
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better control.
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1. They help improve roll rate. Crank the rudder in the direction of the roll.
2. Along with opposite ailerons, they create side-slip, which can help you slow down quickly if needed, or even bring the nose into what would otherwise be an impossible shot, although for the most part, you'll only rarely if ever use it in this fashion.
Remember that using rudder induces drag and burns E, therefore, intentional use is typically limited to helping roll rate, controlling speed in a high-angle dive or attempting to force an overshoot.
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Yeah thats one way Ive been using them. I heard it on the History channel actually from a P-51 stick who had a 109 ace on his tail. He couldnt shake him so he did a Hail Mary, yank hist stick back hard and went full rudder forcing an overshoot. Its worked for me a few times.
I slipslide when I need to slow to land and occasionally use them to line up sights. Ive gotten myself in trouble with them to if I keep my tootsies on them while flying and rudder slightly without realizing it, bleeding off speed.
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1) Gunnery....huge difference vs no rudder use
2) Control at low speed high AoA
3) "Centering the ball" maximizes turn and E retention
4) Manipulation of lift vector
5) "airbrake"
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rudder is one of the most important control surfaces. your gunnery will most likely be terrible if you're not using your rudder to better track your shots and keep your lift vector in plane.
it also makes all the difference in low speed fights. like snap said, it'll give you a massive load of control at high AoA.
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If you're in a spit 1 fighting a spit 16, use rudder to help roll quicker. You'll be able to keep with him through any maneuver, and they never see it coming. :D
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
Yeah thats one way Ive been using them. I heard it on the History channel actually from a P-51 stick who had a 109 ace on his tail. He couldnt shake him so he did a Hail Mary, yank hist stick back hard and went full rudder forcing an overshoot. Its worked for me a few times.
He did a snap roll. Yanking the stick back with a large rudder input stalls the wing on the side of the rudder input resulting in a nice tight roll. Regaining control can sometimes be an issue but it's impossible to track.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
1. They help improve roll rate. Crank the rudder in the direction of the roll.
I have a question regarding this. How far into your roll do you keep applying rudder?
When does continued rudder input become detrimental to roll rate?
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Originally posted by Coshy
I have a question regarding this. How far into your roll do you keep applying rudder?
When does continued rudder input become detrimental to roll rate?
First, roll response is very dependant on speed. At slow speed a bootful of rudder makes a very big difference while at higher speeds generally much less rudder is needed. At very high speed, most airplanes will tend to stiffen up so rudder becomes more significant again. Also, rudder is a huge asset during guns defense maneuvers to get you out of plane with your attacker or initiate a snap roll.
Rudder has its greatest effect at the very start of your roll because you have to overcome inertia to get the plane moving. If you need your best possible roll rate hit rudder at the same time you apply full lateral stick and keep it in until you approach the angle of bank that you want but then want to ease out the rudder so you roll out smoothly on your desired heading. The best thing to do is just practice this to see how your plane responds best and using rudder starting turns becomes second nature.
If you're doing a continuous turn, for the majority of AH fighters that have engines that rotate right (from the pilot's view) you will want to keep a bit of left rudder in during a continuous left turn. Sustained right turns may need no rudder at all or, depending on the speed, just a tiny bit of left rudder. Reverse this for the odd airplanes with engines that rotate left (Yak, Typhoon, Spit 16, Tempest). If you fly with combat trim on, the amount of rudder used during sustained turns becomes greater because CT's rudder trim is actually working against you. Twins with counter-rotating props should need no rudder in a sustained turn.
Now, I'm not advocating that you look at your slip indicator (the ball) during a fight but use it to practice and get a feel for how much rudder your particular ride needs in sustained turns. The rule is "step on the ball". If the ball is to the left, use some left rudder to put it between the lines.
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Originally posted by humble
1) Gunnery....huge difference vs no rudder use
2) Control at low speed high AoA
3) "Centering the ball" maximizes turn and E retention
4) Manipulation of lift vector
5) "airbrake"
Good answer :)
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I've always noticed that when I turn my rudder, the plane seems to turn in that direction, but then sort of wobble back closer to its original position. Is this what it's meant to do, or could combat trim/ something else be causing it?
Yossarian
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Originally posted by Coshy
I have a question regarding this. How far into your roll do you keep applying rudder?
When does continued rudder input become detrimental to roll rate?
Mace gave a good answer but to make it much simpler give it a lot of rudder initially to overcome inertia, then gradually release it as you reach your desired attitude.
Your plane choice will make a big difference in how and how much rudder you use, as will the circumstances. If you're trying to roll a Spit I with a 190 you'll have to use full rudder and still won't be able to stay with him, whereas if the opposite were true, the 190 wouldn't need to use any rudder and so, would be better able to maintain E.
I use a twisty stick and find rudder use to be instinctive at this point and that's where you need to get to. It's one less thing to think about in a fight. As a rule of thumb, if you're not able to roll with your opponent, apply rudder until you are.
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i normally use rudder to strafe flackers, cause it looks like you are facing forward but turning (a trick that an old friend taught me, he was a pilot in vietnam). also, its good for lining up your shot if you HO (not saying i do *wink*) and the roll rate thingy ^_^
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Yeah Im learning to get my rudders more involved with shooting, "actually making a concious effort of it". Thanks for all the replys fellas.
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Great thread but I have one question: what do you guys recommend or use for your joy stick / foot petal set up?
Right now I have a Cyborg III that my squad mate let me use which is ok but I find I have no rudder control. All my take offs have to be auto cause I start to circle in manual. I've tried several times to calibrate the twist option on the stick with no luck. Any help would be greatly appreciated. :)
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Originally posted by SpazMan
Great thread but I have one question: what do you guys recommend or use for your joy stick / foot petal set up?
I wouldn't recommend foot petals, see bellow link for a reason:
http://www.footpetals.com/cgi-bin/footpetals/index.html
As for your stick, sometimes you have to manually assign Z axis to rudder input.
If you can afford it, you can purchase rudder pedals.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
I wouldn't recommend foot petals, see bellow link for a reason:
http://www.footpetals.com/cgi-bin/footpetals/index.html
As for your stick, sometimes you have to manually assign Z axis to rudder input.
If you can afford it, you can purchase rudder pedals.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
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To expand just a little on the use of rudders in shooting....I've found two different but overlapping ways they become very valuable.
1. When reaching for an "out of plane" shot that you can't quite reach, you can use rudders to "yaw" the nose (and the guns) in a direction different from the direction of flight. Think of a drive by shot, with your car being the direction of flight (going straight) and the nose being the gun arm yawing to the side --
2. Once you have a good idea of exactly where to aim, you can concentrate your rounds right on that spot even when you're slicing past the target. (A non- tracking shot, or snapshot) Without rudder input, these shots are often like a strafing run, with bullets stitching a line along the target. Once your mind's eye sees the exact place you need to hit for perfect lead, instead of hosing the whole length of the aircraft you can throw in just a tweak of rudder to concentrate more bullets on the spot. Get this down, and targets blow up lots more (and you get lots fewer assists)!
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
I wouldn't recommend foot petals, see bellow link for a reason:
http://www.footpetals.com/cgi-bin/footpetals/index.html
As for your stick, sometimes you have to manually assign Z axis to rudder input.
If you can afford it, you can purchase rudder pedals.
:eek: :lol
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Originally posted by SpazMan
Great thread but I have one question: what do you guys recommend or use for your joy stick / foot petal set up?
Right now I have a Cyborg III that my squad mate let me use which is ok but I find I have no rudder control. All my take offs have to be auto cause I start to circle in manual. I've tried several times to calibrate the twist option on the stick with no luck. Any help would be greatly appreciated. :)
you know wer u click "map controllers" and it says "Axis X" "Axis Y" and "Axis Z"? well Axis Z is the rudder I do believe (correct me if im wrong) you map it like any other input, but i think its one of the two Yaw settings. make sure you have it mapped to your joystick.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
I wouldn't recommend foot petals, see bellow link for a reason:
http://www.footpetals.com/cgi-bin/footpetals/index.html
As for your stick, sometimes you have to manually assign Z axis to rudder input.
If you can afford it, you can purchase rudder pedals.
LMAO! :rolleyes: :rofl :rofl :aok