Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Urchin on March 01, 2008, 08:24:54 AM
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I imagine this should be clear to anyone, but it probably isn't.
Any time you get a "GV Mishun!" it is 3/4 flakpansies, a couple tanks to protect the flakpansies, and a couple M3s.. that means the flakpansie is overpowered.
Granted, it isn't anywhere near as bad as it was back in AH1, when the flakpansie was the best anti-GV, anti-air, and anti-town/field GV... but the simple fact that the "anti-air" GV is present in numbers in one "mishun" that are larger than it was present in WW2 should be telling.
Perk it. Big. Or greatly reduce its efficiency against buildings. One flakpansie can roll up to a town and trash it far more quickly than a company of our tanks can, which makes for some really strange gameplay.
For instance.... why bother with the IL-2, 190F-8, or Hurricane 2D? All of them suck against flakpansies, and that is what they are going to run into 80% of the time. Instead, use a flight of level bombers and carpet suicide-bomb the GVs! Garbage in = garbage out.
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urchin, I kill flakpanzers with a 202. urchin, why are you incessantly whining on these boards? since your return you have the aura of an old timey country song. play yourself backwards and get your stuff back please, sheesh.
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Originally posted by justguess
urchin, I kill flakpanzers with a 202. urchin, why are you incessantly whining on these boards? since your return you have the aura of an old timey country song. play yourself backwards and get your stuff back please, sheesh.
But this time he has a point. One Ostwind has more firepower vs. towns than a fully loaded Lancaster: It's 1000 rounds are the equivalent to 15,600 lbs bombs.
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/guns/guns.htm
1lbs of bombs doest 1 point of damage vs buildings, 1lbs of Ostwind rounds does 11.4 points damage!
The effectivity vs planes however I do not dispute at all. And even if the damage vs buildings would be toned down (which I would appreciate), you still would see a awful lot of them - because it's necessary. Tanks are dead meat on the table for planes in this game, unless heavily escorted by flak vehicles.
But I see no need to give it a perk value of any kind. Absolutely not.
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take up a 202 and see how many you can kill just for fun. I know you don't get points for it but the remarks from the afflicted on twohunnert are ample reward for your effort, very gratifying and sure to leave a smile upon your face.
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Originally posted by justguess
take up a 202 and see how many you can kill just for fun. I know you don't get points for it but the remarks from the afflicted on twohunnert are ample reward for your effort, very gratifying and sure to leave a smile upon your face.
Like I said.. Nothing wrong in this game with Ostwind vs planes
I almost never drop bombs on them. Way more fun to gun them down ;)
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Originally posted by justguess
play yourself backwards and get your stuff back please, sheesh.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Seriously, LTARMac prolly typed that to make himself feel better for you downing his lancstukas.
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Turreting a flak panzer is not difficult, you need to make your attack from a steep angle and that's it.
Make your attacks quick and difficult to target and you won't have a problem.
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Urchin the Il2 23mm reach far and hit hard.. Great guns vs. the ostie. With the 40mm's you "just" need to come fast/off angle till their convergence distance, where you take one shot that (if it lands on target) will kill the turret everytime, and sometimes kill the pilot.
What I think is a real PITA with osties is the instant repair with supplies. You can do things just right, pop their turret, and get shot on your way out a second later.
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Hello Urchin,
As a regular Ostie driver (259 kills this tour) I will tell you that I have been turretted and/or destroyed by just about every plane in the inventory. No plane sucks if it is used correctly or in concert with another pilot attacking at the same time. If you attack an Ostie by yourself from a head on aspect, you are gonna get some holes in your plane if the driver knows what he is doing. The guys that consistently nail me are usually working in teams (unique concept). One makes a pass to draw fire, the other comes in for the kill. As far as overpowered, no. I believe that it is correctly modeled by HTC. There are several great options for dealing with hordes of GV's: pork their supplies/troops, drop their VH's, multiple JABO's working together, and the Osties worse nightmare-tanks. Adjust your tactics and you will begin adding alot of Osties to your kill list.
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Yup, two works better.
What i do is fire away from the plane i suspect will straff me next, when he is 2.0-1.5k out, i turn my turret to him and open fire.
often times they think they have a clear shot, untill x4 .50's bark fire upto them.
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No.. justguess is storch, here polluting the boards with his narcissitic nonsense ... again.
"Urchin, I fought off 17 dweebfires and 19 'woobiecanes' (what kind of retard pet name is that anyway, storch>) AND found the time to strafe 47 Ostwinds, all in my Val!"
Get back on your meds, Storch.
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Never perk a flak its way to easy to kill, I was defending a base last night me and a squad member were 800yds from each other an F6F i wont say who it was, drops 1 - 1000lb bomb and kills us both Im sorry a bomb that size doesnt have the blast radius to kill 2 armored vehicles with that much space between us. Just wouldnt happen. I know it would more than likely kill 1 of us but 2 NO WAY.
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Do you have film of it Smokey? 800 yards would mean 400 yards or less, to the bomb.
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NO i dont but my squaddie might i'll get him to post it if he does.It was my fault i usually record every sortie but got lazy last night. had a 3rd squaddie in the tower watchin it all we could say after we both died was "wtf" but wont stop me from usein my osti and am anxious to get my paws on that werbelwind:aok
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The judges award one point to Urchin.
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Maybe HTC could make buildings immune to guns under 50mm.
I'm not too certain if a 37mm anti-aircraft gun can so easily bring down a brick-wall building with short burst attacks.
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i believe most of you have missed the point urchin was brining up the idea that flakpanzers are too effective against buildings....
and i agree
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Last Il-2 attack on GVs that I did I took out three Ostwinds. I did it by being very steady on the aim, narrowing my field of view to get a more realistic scale, and firing from beyond 1,000 yards. In each case I killed the turret, though the third one got me too.
Personally I am looking forward to the Whirbelwind as it will be less effective against the Il-2.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I imagine this should be clear to anyone, but it probably isn't.
Instead, use a flight of level bombers and carpet suicide-bomb the GVs! Garbage in = garbage out.
Flak panzers bad. One pilot flying 3 fully loaded heavy bombers to go after said ground vehicles good.
Yeah, perk the GV with the single gun and Give the bomber dweeb six bombers to control just to be fair. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/spezial/Sarge/Whatever_anim.gif)
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I'd say something about sarcasm, except you apparently can't even comprehend non-sarcastic speech.
What part of the quoted sentence DIDN'T you understand?
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Fact of the matter is, once this next update comes out, ground vehicals will need to worry about planes alot more.
Il-2's 23mm
hurr's 40mm's
B-25's 75mm
yak's 37mm
p-39's 37mm
Considering 4 out of those five can carry bombs too..
Give me one good reason these things need to be perked again?
Also, i would like it to be noted, i recently found some "drawings" of p39K's with x6 rocket tubes on the wings.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a107/BaDkaRmA158Th/p-39q-06.jpg)
Wowzers
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Originally posted by Urchin
I'd say something about sarcasm, except you apparently can't even comprehend non-sarcastic speech.
What part of the quoted sentence DIDN'T you understand?
Most people don't even bother to read em anymore Urch. They're in a hurry to "outdo the other" with sarcastic replies.
I've said for over 3 years, the two quickest ways to drop a town are in a 110 or an Ostie. I agree with you.
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Urchin is correct the FP is overpowered. But when you look overall at the GV's it's a bit of a mess and always has been the most gamey part of AH.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by evenhaim
i believe most of you have missed the point urchin was brining up the idea that flakpanzers are too effective against buildings....
and i agree
Then I guess the next logical point to make is...
20mm cannons and .50 cal machine guns... Should be completely innefectual to buildings. (There are plenty of holes in older buildings in France and Germany to illustrate this point. 60 years after the war.. buildings are standing right where they got strafed.)
You can't have it both ways.. and I suspect the coad is the way it is for gameplay.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Maybe HTC could make buildings immune to guns under 50mm.
I'm not too certain if a 37mm anti-aircraft gun can so easily bring down a brick-wall building with short burst attacks.
Not immune... hehe.
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Originally posted by MORAY37
Then I guess the next logical point to make is...
20mm cannons and .50 cal machine guns... Should be completely innefectual to buildings. (There are plenty of holes in older buildings in France and Germany to illustrate this point. 60 years after the war.. buildings are standing right where they got strafed.)
You can't have it both ways.. and I suspect the coad is the way it is for gameplay.
agreed but the fact of the matter is 30 20mm or how ever many it takes to drop a building should do more damage then 2 or 3 37mms from an ostie.
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Originally posted by evenhaim
agreed but the fact of the matter is 30 20mm or how ever many it takes to drop a building should do more damage then 2 or 3 37mms from an ostie.
the relative damage value of 20mm and 37mm is pretty similar
1 20mm Hispano does ~ 4 points of damage
1 37mm Ostwind HE does ~ 16 points of damage - thats 4x the damage of a 20mm round while being a 6x larger shell
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Originally posted by Xasthur
Turreting a flak panzer is not difficult, you need to make your attack from a steep angle and that's it.
Make your attacks quick and difficult to target and you won't have a problem.
I don't believe I have ever turreted an Ostie. I have tried from every conceivable angle. Others have no problems turreting my Osties though. :lol
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Originally posted by Elfie
I don't believe I have ever turreted an Ostie. I have tried from every conceivable angle. Others have no problems turreting my Osties though. :lol
I'll be MORE THAN happy to show you how.
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Can you kill Flak's with 50 cals?
I've been avoiding shooting anything but M3's and M16's since I didn't think I could kill anything else?
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Originally posted by Ghastly
Can you kill Flak's with 50 cals?
I've been avoiding shooting anything but M3's and M16's since I didn't think I could kill anything else?
In an La7 I have landed 13 "flak turret" kills. Any plane will take em out.
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Originally posted by Ghastly
Can you kill Flak's with 50 cals?
I've been avoiding shooting anything but M3's and M16's since I didn't think I could kill anything else?
Turret is open topped - sheer volum of fire & flat trajectory more important than individual bullet power
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
In an La7 I have landed 13 "flak turret" kills. Any plane will take em out.
And I once saw an old farmer guy hit a duck flying through the air with a catapult.
...-Gixer
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I take out flak guns out all the time with my f4u-1 which has only 50 cals.
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any a/c can turret a flak with relative ease but that is not the main concept being discussed in this thread.
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Technically if HTC unflucks their gv selection by bringing the whirlbilwind in and then in turn perking the rarely used (45 produced) ostiwind we have a better balance here.
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Originally posted by Gixer
And I once saw an old farmer guy hit a duck flying through the air with a catapult.
...-Gixer
Just because you cannot, does not mean others are in the same dinghy as you.
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Heh...Urchin complaining again? Shocked, I am
Flakpanzers seem fine to me. Deadly in the hands of an LTAR...always a preferred target for a Lancaster with 18 500-pounders and a vendetta ;)
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I have to say even if Osty is hitting harder than it should it is not hard at all to take out... My most favorite memory of taking out 2 osy turrets was in my Hurri MK1 (osty drivers were prob pissed) LOL.
Personally I don't see why more people don't drive LVT 4's to take out town. If you place the HE rounds right they take out several buildings at one time.
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Originally posted by Flayed1
Personally I don't see why more people don't drive LVT 4's to take out town. If you place the HE rounds right they take out several buildings at one time.
Ostwind is still more effective, can better defend himself. And with proper shot placement he can do that trick too.
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Originally posted by evenhaim
agreed but the fact of the matter is 30 20mm or how ever many it takes to drop a building should do more damage then 2 or 3 37mms from an ostie.
It takes exactly 20 rounds from an osty to kill one building in town. I know... I count every round leaving for each building in order to maximize my ammo load, when takin out a town.
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Originally posted by Elfie
I don't believe I have ever turreted an Ostie. I have tried from every conceivable angle. Others have no problems turreting my Osties though. :lol
Dive at it from directly above and you'll knock out the Ostie's gun every time. Though, it's a lot tougher if the Ostie has another Ostie covering it.
ack-ack
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I was in the 2nd LW arena for a bit tonight.
I upped a spixteen for base defense and shot down this guys 109-G6. He comes back in a Tempest acting like he is on a vendetta vs every spixteen in the area. I avoided every pass he made on me and managed to land a few hits on him before I belly landed on the runway out of fuel.
I grabbed an Ostie and shot his port wing off. He logged after that. :lol
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The Ostie is a great ackwagon but I prefer the M-16. I just know the 0.50 lead better from shooting out of bombers so much. But man there are some great Ostie gunners in this game and Ive been on the recieving end of more then a couple.
I wonder what the ammo load is going to be on the new 20mm flakwagon? That may be the new townbuster of choice.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Heh...Urchin complaining again? Shocked, I am
Flakpanzers seem fine to me. Deadly in the hands of an LTAR...always a preferred target for a Lancaster with 18 500-pounders and a vendetta ;)
Thanks for reiterating my point, Lepaul.
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Want to reduce the Ostwinds damage vs buildings, thats fine.
Reduce the dispersion effect that made it 10x harder to hit planes while your at it.
Everything is balance, Hitech and HTC are high wire artiste's twirling plates and juggling crystal stemware. Is it perfect, perhaps not, but its better than anything else out there in my opinion. Does this make me a fanboi, well if it makes you feel better to put labels on people, I guess I can live with that one.
Wait till the next release and see how it shakes out.
Then if you must whine, please just go into the closet, close the door and whine away.
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Originally posted by evenhaim
i believe most of you have missed the point urchin was brining up the idea that flakpanzers are too effective against buildings....
and i agree
I respectfully disagree!
37mm agains bricks and wood? very bad for the wood and brick!
also the rapid fire of the gun verses the slower fire of a tank?
i dont know the rate of fire of the osti right off but it puts out multiple round to the tank, also the buildings require less than 2 he tank rounds to fall so you have wasted energy if not lined up for in a row of buildings
i am not sure but i think 15 rounds of 37mm for one building?=555 mm of shell verses 140 mm tank round, only the rate of fire is greater in the osti so it still goes faster!
also we are doing something that did not happen in real life during the war we are destroying all the buildings of a city in order to capture it instead of small area's of a city were the resistance might have been and we dont have artillary like they did so some adaption will have too be made.
(just my opinion with a few homegrown numbers, feel free to correct my math if someone knows the actual numbers)
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Originally posted by Rich46yo
The Ostie is a great ackwagon but I prefer the M-16. I just know the 0.50 lead better from shooting out of bombers so much. But man there are some great Ostie gunners in this game and Ive been on the recieving end of more then a couple.
I wonder what the ammo load is going to be on the new 20mm flakwagon? That may be the new townbuster of choice.
I doubt the ammo load will last long because of the rate of fire should be a little faster than an Ostie.
M16's are easy meat. Start rolling Osties for a few months, you'll get good at it.
I suck in Osties.
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If you take out the VHs that these dreaded Nazi weapons come from, you won't have to worry about it. Problem solved.....Next question !
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I doubt the ammo load will last long because of the rate of fire should be a little faster than an Ostie.
It won't be an issue on an airfield since you can just use the rearm pad. If people are smart, at GV bases they will drop tons of supplies before upping a Wirbelwind.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I doubt the ammo load will last long because of the rate of fire should be a little faster than an Ostie.
M16's are easy meat. Start rolling Osties for a few months, you'll get good at it.
I suck in Osties.
Yeah I mean I love the Osties I just aint that good in them. Im far better in M16s, but yeah, your in the wind sitting in them. I try and butt up against a hardened shelter so I dont have to worry about my "6" as much in 16s, trying to keep incoming in front of me.
Im really pumped up for the new flakwagon.
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Is the ostwind too effective against tanks? Last week I killed two panzers with an ostwind. Both were side hits and it seemed to take only four or five hits. . In one case the panzer as very close. In the other it was so far out that it was barely discernable as a panzer at full zoom. Does this surprise anyone else? The ostie doesn’t, as I recall, have AP rounds. Seems like 37mm HE could track a tank and perhaps kill one with a rear hit but isn’t the side armor too thick to permit a kill by an ostie? Is this incorrectly modeled or is the panzer weaker than I thought? Not that I’m whining. It didn’t bother me to get the kills. I expected a fast trip to the tower when I saw those tanks
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Originally posted by Condor
Is the ostwind too effective against tanks? Last week I killed two panzers with an ostwind. Both were side hits and it seemed to take only four or five hits. . In one case the panzer as very close. In the other it was so far out that it was barely discernable as a panzer at full zoom. Does this surprise anyone else? The ostie doesn’t, as I recall, have AP rounds. Seems like 37mm HE could track a tank and perhaps kill one with a rear hit but isn’t the side armor too thick to permit a kill by an ostie? Is this incorrectly modeled or is the panzer weaker than I thought? Not that I’m whining. It didn’t bother me to get the kills. I expected a fast trip to the tower when I saw those tanks
I have bagged tanks with my Ostie before, even Tigers. To be fair though, I think they may have already been damaged when I opened up on them. Can you blame me? If there is a tank within gun range of your Ostie, you better run or fire or both, even if someone is already engaging them. Concentrated long term 37mm (field gun and Ostwind) fire will take down the toughest tanks.
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Originally posted by MORAY37
It takes exactly 20 rounds from an osty to kill one building in town. I know... I count every round leaving for each building in order to maximize my ammo load, when takin out a town.
Just a note from one of the HTC Charts...
37mm HE Ostwind round: 15.6lbs. N.E.W.
Build takes 250lbs to take down...
So you should only need 16-17 rounds to take down a town building which would be 249.6-265.2lbs of N.E.W.
20 rounds would be 312lbs....
Just a note is all, not saying your wrong... :aok
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Originally posted by Urchin
For instance.... why bother with the IL-2, 190F-8, or Hurricane 2D? All of them suck against flakpansies, and that is what they are going to run into 80% of the time. Instead, use a flight of level bombers and carpet suicide-bomb the GVs! Garbage in = garbage out.
You can turret a flak easily with the IL2 or Hurri. In fact, it seems my flak can be turreted by someone shooting out his window with a .45.
It may be hard to kill it, but you can turret it. This works at the towns... Resupply on a base keeps them alive.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I imagine this should be clear to anyone, but it probably isn't.
Any time you get a "GV Mishun!" it is 3/4 flakpansies, a couple tanks to protect the flakpansies, and a couple M3s.. that means the flakpansie is overpowered.
Granted, it isn't anywhere near as bad as it was back in AH1, when the flakpansie was the best anti-GV, anti-air, and anti-town/field GV... but the simple fact that the "anti-air" GV is present in numbers in one "mishun" that are larger than it was present in WW2 should be telling.
Perk it. Big. Or greatly reduce its efficiency against buildings. One flakpansie can roll up to a town and trash it far more quickly than a company of our tanks can, which makes for some really strange gameplay.
For instance.... why bother with the IL-2, 190F-8, or Hurricane 2D? All of them suck against flakpansies, and that is what they are going to run into 80% of the time. Instead, use a flight of level bombers and carpet suicide-bomb the GVs! Garbage in = garbage out.
Surely this is a joke right? What do you think the M8 was made for??? Killin FLAKS!
A few weeks back ... a force of 5 Flacks, 1 M3 and a T34 descended upon a town. Only 1 M8 to defend against this horde. In 5 minutes.... 1 dead M3, 3 dead Flacks, 2 smokin flaks and a T34 rolling around town looking for the massive force that rendered the invasion force mute.
Someone brought back an M8 ....and I killed that too. Eventually, I was killed by the T34 when I killed the second M3. By then...re-enforcements arrived and the town was secured.
Flaks overpowered? I think not....perk the M8 of DEATH!!! ha ha ha ha
Softail
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Originally posted by Sketch
Just a note from one of the HTC Charts...
37mm HE Ostwind round: 15.6lbs. N.E.W.
Build takes 250lbs to take down...
So you should only need 16-17 rounds to take down a town building which would be 249.6-265.2lbs of N.E.W.
20 rounds would be 312lbs....
Just a note is all, not saying your wrong... :aok
Sketch...there is where 2+2 = 3
it takes 20 rounds. no if's and's or but's about it. Try it.
Softail
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Originally posted by Softail
Sketch...there is where 2+2 = 3
it takes 20 rounds. no if's and's or but's about it. Try it.
Softail
Like I said, I wasn't saying you were wrong, and no I have not had a chance to try it yet. (Maybe tonight) I was just doing the math and remembered the charts of the projectiles for the game. That is all...
(Will try it tonight hopefully if I get in some time)
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I used to have the same opinion when ord/vh is down and you get a rush of osties inbound what do you do?
That was until dadrabit was defending in a p40 no less. I thought what is this joker playing at, p40 ha! Well what he continued to do was setup high angled passes from the sun and let of a short burst of 50 cal from 1.5-1k couple of pings bye bye turret.
Unless you have m3's putting out supplies the osty turret is a very easy kill.
If you have distractions and the guy is shooting at someone else its a piece of cake. I think the way it is now promotes teamwork from both sides. Also depending on the amount of porking going on to spice it up with some variable situations.
No supplies at their base they get no resupplied turrets. Ord up at your base then they shouldnt be a problem.
Also being a "good" shot in the osty takes practice, unless your flying directly at them from a bad angle you deserve to die.