Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: crockett on March 01, 2008, 05:51:20 PM
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A guy on another forum took this video today, thought I'd post it. The plane was trying to land at Hamburg Germany in a very heavy cross wind. The wing actually hit the ground causing the pilot to abort the landing.
Didn't appear to be any damage to the wing because the plane flew off after aborting. Hell of a job done by the pilot.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
(http://www.wargamerx.com/temp/airbus.jpg)
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If the wing hit the ground there will be significant damage to it.
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Nice find.. It's like watching a seagull surf the wind :)
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Wow, great find! Sent to two neighbors (Both are Alaska Airlines jet jockeys)
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Originally posted by crockett
Hell of a job done by the pilot.
I can't agree. If the winds exceeded the aircrafts crosswind limits, he shouldn't have tried to land. If the crosswind was within the limits, he really shouldn't have hit the wing on the ground. But I do realize many situations aren't what they would appear from the comfort of an office chair, so I would give him at least some benefit of doubt unless published facts proved otherwise.
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Originally posted by Regulator
If the crosswind was within the limits, he really shouldn't have hit the wing on the ground.
If you watch video again you'll see he was hit by gust and pushed to the side at the moment he lined up for touch down.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
If you watch video again you'll see he was hit by gust and pushed to the side at the moment he lined up for touch down.
Looked more to me like he was trying to transition from a crabbed approach to a non-crabbed touchdown and just got behind it. The Airbus will do fine if you touchdown crabbed, it will come around.
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... and you have how many hours flying an Airbus?
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
... and you have how many hours flying an Airbus?
I would venture a guess to say more than you.
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They are having a storm system over Hamburg right now as that is very heavy wind more then normal.
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There seems to have been a nice weather that day:
EDDH 010950Z 27016G32KT 9000 -SHRA FEW013TCU BKN018 07/05 Q0981 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN008CB
EDDH 011220Z 29028G48KT 9000 -SHRA FEW011 BKN014 07/05 Q0984 TEMPO 29035G55KT 4000 SHRA BKN008
EDDH 011420Z 29029G43KT 8000 -SHRA BKN029 07/02 Q0990 TEMPO 30035G55KT
The plane used runway 23. The time of the incident was before 13:55, although it's unclear to me whether it's UTC or local. The local time would be just +1 hour to the UTC.
The crosswind component at 43 KT gust would been 37 KT :huh
That's well over the maximum crosswind component of 29 KT!
Even 29 KT would mean 25 KT crosswind, not much short of the maximum.
"wingtip completely bent upwards, lower half of winglet bent inboard at about 45 degrees, slat partly grounded. No further damage."
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Remember how they certify aircraft.
Maximum DEMONSTRATED crosswind component.
All that means, is it is what an average pilot is supposed to be able to handle. The aircraft can go beyond that up to the point where you run out of rudder authority to keep the long axis aligned with the runway.
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Maybe the pilot saw something in the corner of his eye, and decided to abort before he got vulched. I do it all the time. No big deal.
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WOW :O
He must of just about ripped the joystick clean off the sidepanel on that one. Close call, even more so for those seated Port side.
...-Gixer
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Jeeeeessuuuussss.
Change of underwear all round I think.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Maybe the pilot saw something in the corner of his eye, and decided to abort before he got vulched. I do it all the time. No big deal.
I diddent see the auto ack fireing. :D
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Noob.
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Originally posted by Gixer
WOW :O
He must of just about ripped the joystick clean off the sidepanel on that one. Close call, even more so for those seated Port side.
...-Gixer
I reckon, I'd be subconciously reaching for my stick and throttle at that point.
"More power, more power!" "Rudder rudder rudder!"
:lol
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Thank God everyone is OK. Man thats a scarey one. That airplane taking off is just one huge gas can.
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I'm sure the planespotter who took that photo also wet his pants. Shot of a lifetime.
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I can't even imagine what it was like for a passenger on that. I'm usually white nuckleing my arm rest on a smoth landing.
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5fc_1189993936
And whats so good about those guys?? I land like that all the time..and WITHOUT THE WIND,to help me..:rofl
Kevin
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From the clip it looks like he darn near put the other wingtip into the ground as well. Hairy situation there. The wind definitely was gusty from the sounds of the onboard microphone of the camera. The movement of the camera was also choppy from wind. Decent photographer there.
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Originally posted by Regulator
I would venture a guess to say more than you.
I would venture to say as much as me.:rofl
Anyway, the poor devil almost pulled it off. Can't really blame the pilot either. Maybe the pilot hoped for the wind to die down closer from the ground as it's often the case. If able it would have helped to keep a little of right wing low till touch down, leveling before touch down opened him up for what happpened.:(
One of our pilot ran off a runway a couple of years ago in similar situations. He pulled off hundreds of such landings, but one day he got bit. We all wait for the day "we'll get bit". Compared to private pilots, there's a lot of peer pressure for commercials pilots to make the deadlines or at least the airport. And off course, there's the unexpected, like the rapid moving of cold fronts.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
I would venture to say as much as me.:rofl
Anyway, the poor devil almost pulled it off. Can't really blame the pilot either. Maybe the pilot hoped for the wind to die down closer from the ground as it's often the case. If able it would have helped to keep a little of right wing low till touch down, leveling before touch down opened him up for what happpened.:(
One of our pilot ran off a runway a couple of years ago in similar situations. He pulled off hundreds of such landings, but one day he got bit. We all wait for the day "we'll get bit". Compared to private pilots, there's a lot of peer pressure for commercials pilots to make the deadlines or at least the airport. And off course, there's the unexpected, like the rapid moving of cold fronts.
You basically confirmed what I said, that maybe he didn't handle it well, and yes, he should have been right wing down. Kicking out a crab in a large aircraft at the last moment doesn't always work out just right due to wingspan, and with wing mounted engines it is easy enough to strike an engine.
And I do have Airbus time. Don't know about you. I have to wonder how it would have come out if he had left it setup for autoland. The Airbus autoland is pretty amazing.
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Originally posted by Fishu
There seems to have been a nice weather that day:
EDDH 010950Z 27016G32KT 9000 -SHRA FEW013TCU BKN018 07/05 Q0981 TEMPO 28025G45KT 4000 SHRAGS BKN008CB
EDDH 011220Z 29028G48KT 9000 -SHRA FEW011 BKN014 07/05 Q0984 TEMPO 29035G55KT 4000 SHRA BKN008
EDDH 011420Z 29029G43KT 8000 -SHRA BKN029 07/02 Q0990 TEMPO 30035G55KT
Those kinds of winds don't look like nice weather.
25 gusting to 45
35 gusting to 55
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I have 0 hour in an Airbus, if you do have time in them as something else than a flight attendant/passenger, then you know that you cannot blame the pilot that easily. You must have been in the course of your aviation carreer in the same situation without the luxury of a choice. You know the pressure pilots are subject too, as well as how conditions can rapidly change and mess up your day.
Commercial flying is not as black/white as we wish it could be.:(
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Originally posted by Regulator
And I do have Airbus time. Don't know about you. I have to wonder how it would have come out if he had left it setup for autoland. The Airbus autoland is pretty amazing.
If you have Airbus time you'd know that a320 x-wind limitation for autoland was exceeded.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
I have 0 hour in an Airbus, if you do have time in them as something else than a flight attendant/passenger, then you know that you cannot blame the pilot that easily. You must have been in the course of your aviation carreer in the same situation without the luxury of a choice. You know the pressure pilots are subject too, as well as how conditions can rapidly change and mess up your day.
Commercial flying is not as black/white as we wish it could be.:(
I think that I did say something about waiting to see if more details came out, as I rarely rush to judgement before that when flying is concerned.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
If you have Airbus time you'd know that a320 x-wind limitation for autoland was exceeded.
I didn't catch the wind details, didn't look into it that far, but you are probably right. Either way, it wasn't the best crosswind landing I have seen by a long shot.
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Originally posted by Regulator
And I do have Airbus time. Don't know about you. I have to wonder how it would have come out if he had left it setup for autoland. The Airbus autoland is pretty amazing.
:rofl
Maybe on your PC mate, but not in real life. Sorry pilots are still needed.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
:rofl
Maybe on your PC mate, but not in real life. Sorry pilots are still needed.
(http://www.deskpicture.com/DPs/Military/GlobalHawk_f.jpg)
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:rofl
Let me know when that thing has a ATPL rating and starts flying passengers wise prettythang also do the thread a favour and learn to resize pics.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
:rofl
Let me know when that thing has a ATPL rating and starts flying passengers wise prettythang also do the thread a favour and learn to resize pics.
...-Gixer
Just a matter of time...
And as far as resizing pics, I'm just too lazy.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Just a matter of time...
Yes along with space travel and hotels on mars. Sorry going from a big RC plane flying over battlefields to a full size 747 carrying 300 + pax is two different things.
And here's a little app to help with your time http://www.irfanview.net/ takes less then 2 minutes.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
Sorry going from a big RC plane flying over battlefields to a full size 747 carrying 300 + pax is two different things.
Global hawk is not RC... it's fully autonomous. Only during taxiing is human input required.
Autoland features have been around awhile:
Boeing tested one based on GPS in 1995. There is a VTOL landing system for the JSF. ALS based on ILS have been around since the 1970's.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Global hawk is not RC... it's fully autonomous. Only during taxiing is human input required.
Autoland features have been around awhile:
Boeing tested one based on GPS in 1995. There is a VTOL landing system for the JSF. ALS based on ILS have been around since the 1970's.
Thanks for the lesson on landing systems, guess all my years flying real world and over Vatsim I've actually learnt something today from a game BBS imagine that.
Autoland within set minimums is one thing, autolanding in a crosswind is another. And again having pax on board is out of the question whether it's RC,auto or what ever.
They don't even trust automated commuter trains, and that POS is stuck on rails..
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Global hawk is not RC... it's fully autonomous. Only during taxiing is human input required.
Autoland features have been around awhile:
Boeing tested one based on GPS in 1995. There is a VTOL landing system for the JSF. ALS based on ILS have been around since the 1970's.
The Marine Corps AN/TPN-22 Precision Approach Radar was capable of landing F18s in the 80s
Somone told me once that F111s came back all the time with dead pilots in 'nam. I don't know how true that is. but your right the Global hawk doesn't really have a pilot, he's more like a controler.
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Originally posted by Gixer
:rofl
Maybe on your PC mate, but not in real life. Sorry pilots are still needed.
...-Gixer
Didn't say I flew an Airbus for a living, but I have flown one.
Since you don't know me, or what I do, or who I do it for, you can't make such a statement.
I am a pilot, and have been for 27 years.
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Originally posted by Regulator
Didn't say I flew an Airbus for a living, but I have flown one.
Since you don't know me, or what I do, or who I do it for, you can't make such a statement.
I am a pilot, and have been for 27 years.
WB MrBlack :noid
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Originally posted by Regulator
Didn't say I flew an Airbus for a living, but I have flown one.
Since you don't know me, or what I do, or who I do it for, you can't make such a statement.
I am a pilot, and have been for 27 years.
Then you'd understand the limitations of autopilots,landing systems and regulations.
And as for the don't know me,what I do etc... :noid
Lighten up, no i don't and your statement didn't come across as being from someone who has been flying for 27 years. So how am I to know exactly?
...-Gixer
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Only in Germany... http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ddb_1204404185
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Only in the O'club:
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=228380
;)
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Well crap!
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Global hawk is not RC... it's fully autonomous. Only during taxiing is human input required.
Autoland features have been around awhile:
Boeing tested one based on GPS in 1995. There is a VTOL landing system for the JSF. ALS based on ILS have been around since the 1970's.
A passenger plane could pretty well operate on it's own once a path has been configured. Only thing that there isn't on the planes is automatic takeoff. Otherwise those systems could be joined together and the plane could fly automatically. Basically it's nothing more than click of a button to enter the next phase of a flight. With new datalink based ATC systems it could be made to be controlled by ATC, if the input would be directed to a control unit instead of a display unit.
However, the real problem is not to get a big plane to fly automatically under optimal conditions, but make it survive in extreme and abnormal situations. When an UAV gets hit it is likely to go down - not something you'd like to see with hundreds of pax with a still manageable damage. The highly trained pilots are there to manage these extreme and abnormal situations, albeit most often it is the human error that brings a plane down.
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Originally posted by Fishu
...albeit most often it is the human error that brings a plane down.
No 9000 computer has ever made a mistake or distorted information. We are all, by any practical definition of the words, foolproof and incapable of error. ... It can only be attributable to human error.
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I'm not a RL pilot, but I think the video shows gross pilot error. Good that he recovered, even a great recovery. But in the end he was pushing a bad situation and almost lost it. Glad I wasn't on board. Nothing wrong with going round a couple times to get the feel of the situation. Landing fixation......
kc
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Originally posted by kculon
I'm not a RL pilot, but I think the video shows gross pilot error. Good that he recovered, even a great recovery. But in the end he was pushing a bad situation and almost lost it. Glad I wasn't on board. Nothing wrong with going round a couple times to get the feel of the situation. Landing fixation......
kc
Since you are not a pilot, you don't operate under the same microscope of scrutiny - and frankly your opinion is reckless and uninformed. Those of us who have been drivers for years know that sometimes you get handed a bad deal - there is nothing you can do about it.
We lost 2 pilots in the past week to bad deals. 1 in Riverside CA where his engine failed in a densely populated area at 500 feet - everyone in the plane died - but the guy maneuvered it away from populated areas and saved a lot of people on the ground. Another down in Rio - Brazil when they put JET-A in the tank when AVGAS was called because the line guy got confused by the label "Turbo" on the side of the engine cowling. That guy had 30 years behind the stick, his engine failed at 500 feet when the AVGAS cleared the lines, JET-A finally made it to the spider valve, and his engine detonated and failed.
I almost got my friends T-28B refueled with Jet-A once. The jet truck pulled up; I asked "what's this for"? She said the manager told her during training that all large airplanes took Jet-A. Just proves line person training is all over the place.
"You get what you INspect, not what you EXpect."
As for the Airbus pilot - he did it right. You can't see gusts, but he didn't lose it, went around and got down.
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Originally posted by kculon
I'm not a RL pilot, but I think the video shows gross pilot error.
What error? Short wind gusts aren't predictable. According to the crew and Lufthansa, they were indeed hit by gust and didn't crash because they were practicing very same situation in simulator few hundred times.
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Originally posted by texasmom
Those kinds of winds don't look like nice weather.
25 gusting to 45
35 gusting to 55
The TCU and CB are the really scary parts of that. With those, everything else is pretty much out the window. Pucker factor on that landing had to be at least 11.
:O
Forgot who compared this landing to sim training, but I don't care how many times you might practice something like that in a sim, when it happens IRL it's a whole new game.
Wolf, sorry to hear about your friends. Sucks when you can put a face with the tail number on the report. Lost some of mine a few years back as well.
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Was on a SouthWest flight to Vegas last month and we got hit with a NASTY crosswind just before touchdown.
We came down on the left wheel hard, it was a few seconds before the pilot could wrestle the aircraft level and come down on the other wheel.
Strangely, we had the same thing happen on returning to Little Rock...35 mph wind on landing.
I came very close to having a Depends moment.
ROX
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Great job by the pilots. I look at this as a learning experience, considering my goal is to join Lufthansa.
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I heard tonight the Airbus was hit with winds approach 100mph, if that is the case, the pilot did an amazing job. I take back what I said before.
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It was a very strong gust, and a heck of a recovery job.