Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: angelsandair on March 02, 2008, 04:45:41 AM
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I need help with some fighter tactics.
I'm pretty good in a Spit-8, 16, 5, also good in a C. 205, Hurri 1, 2c, F4U-1
But i really need help along the lines of furballing. (hurris c205, spits)
There is this one maneuver that I havent recorded mainly because when the camera is on, i usually get picked and it doesnt happen. So i will tell about it.
We'll just say I'm in my Hurri 2c vs. an A6M5. We will go on a convergence and we end up at the deck neck and neck. We end up almost side by side scissoring back and forth. I always keep losing those kind of fights. Where its almost like a figure 8 between the 2 planes. My question is, on certain situations, do i need to cut my throttle? Or can i half it and bring my nose up when I'm doing the maneuver? It's really frustrating.
Another tactic that always has gotten me (killed me, or almost have until the pilot made a mistake).
This one is when you go on a convergence, and I've always observed that when you go on a convergence, if you dont pull up, the other guy will. Well there was a few times in the DA when i did that and the other guy didnt do it. I thought the fight was won so i went down using my E and the guy turned it around on me and blew my butt out of the sky. I tried the same thing with him but i let him go up first. I tried to simulate what he did but he didnt over shoot. He was right on.
Now I'm thinking that if I'm on the top, instead of over shooting, nose down even more and try to end up on his tail and if i over shoot, i just keep going.
If I'm on bottom, I think I need bank left or right and just as he starts to pass me, bring my rudder up and do a barrel roll and after making the plane over shoot, end up on his 6. It sometimes works sometimes doesnt for both of them. Any suggestions?
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Originally posted by angelsandair
This one is when you go on a convergence, and I've always observed that when you go on a convergence, if you dont pull up, the other guy will. Well there was a few times in the DA when i did that and the other guy didnt do it. I thought the fight was won so i went down using my E and the guy turned it around on me and blew my butt out of the sky. I tried the same thing with him but i let him go up first. I tried to simulate what he did but he didnt over shoot. He was right on.
the reason the person didnt over shot u and kept on your 6 o' clock is because in the dive he reduced throttle. Exactly how much is your choice.when you dove in it sounded like you dint reduce throttle any.
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Some time spent in the TA with a trainer would really help here.
Even just a short amount of time will help more than loads of writing or MA time. Even DA time isn't so hot unless the guy you're working with is actively trying to help you figure things out.
For one, I'm a little confused over the exact situations you describe, and can see several different explanations to go along with your text. So, I don't even know where to start with a written fix.
For example, the merge where you describe yourself going up, but your opponent not doing it, and then turning around and killing you, could simply be a "rope".
What I envision may be entirely different than what you are trying to describe. For example, based on your text, your issue is with "merge", or "after the merge", or "1v1" tactics. If I was going to describe "furballing tactics" (title of the thread), the conversation would take on an entirely different light...
Scissors are great on paper, but in actual flight we can work on timing, etc, that is very hard to convey here. We can also point out other common mistakes and how to fix/avoid them.
Hit the TA, and try to hook up with a trainer.
MtnMan
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WATCH YOUR SIXXX!!!!!
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DA and MA are very much different in how you do your merge. Which are you talking about?
In a "furball" you are talking about a number of planes all turning and whirling around trying to kill each other with out getting killed. In this type of fight it is very rare that you really do a "merge". In a furball, your main plan is to either boom and zoom through it "picking" a target, or if your going to stay inside the furball, you should be trying to "pick" a target and move on to the next one every second or so, never maintaining a predictable flight path.
In the fights you described, the first sounds like a flat scissor. By taking the fight more vertical, by adding yo-yos you turn the fight into a vertical scissor and the plane that climbs better or maintains "E" better should have the advantage. If your enemy is too slow in picking up the vertical move you start, this would also give you an advantage.
The best thing to do, is once you see that your in that fight you always loose, try something different. You can't get any worst (if you always loose) and you may just learn a new trick. Remember, if you do loose, you can just get a new plane and try again.:aok
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Originally posted by mtnman
Some time spent in the TA with a trainer would really help here.
Even just a short amount of time will help more than loads of writing or MA time. Even DA time isn't so hot unless the guy you're working with is actively trying to help you figure things out.
For one, I'm a little confused over the exact situations you describe, and can see several different explanations to go along with your text. So, I don't even know where to start with a written fix.
For example, the merge where you describe yourself going up, but your opponent not doing it, and then turning around and killing you, could simply be a "rope".
What I envision may be entirely different than what you are trying to describe. For example, based on your text, your issue is with "merge", or "after the merge", or "1v1" tactics. If I was going to describe "furballing tactics" (title of the thread), the conversation would take on an entirely different light...
Scissors are great on paper, but in actual flight we can work on timing, etc, that is very hard to convey here. We can also point out other common mistakes and how to fix/avoid them.
Hit the TA, and try to hook up with a trainer.
MtnMan
:aok :aok :aok
Even 15-20 minutes spent with a trainer is worth hours and hours of "normal" time in the MA or DA. Someone who has spent a significant amount of time with a variety of people will have a "better" feel for sorting out various components and hitting on the 1 or 2 key aspects that help the lightbulb go on. It's not just what your "doing", its what your thinking, what your seeing and how that translates into both action and timing.
A good trainer learns to manipulate the only variable he can control (himself) to bring out the best in you as well as learn how your wired. Even a good and helpful stick in the DA will tend to want to win (with a few notable exceptions like Batfink/Biggles who actually can "teach" as well {sure there are others as well}) were a good trainer has his ego checked at the door and will "let" you win if you choice the right option (well sometimes).
As an example I spent some time in the MWA last night tooling around in my A-20 and DaDonkey and I flew 7-8 hops vs each other over an hour or so. By the end of the "session" he smacked me with the same moves that had baffled him early actually managed to reverse my A-20 from 400 or so out on his 6 twice in the same fight to get a very well earned W where he'd have had an L before. These building blocks come one at a time and from various sources, we're all constantly learning stuff.
spend a couple of hours a week in the TA for a month or two and the rewards will stay with you for years. They are a very very talented bunch of guys (gals?) so take advantage.
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Originally posted by mtnman
Scissors are great on paper
very nice ;)
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Originally posted by angelsandair
I need help with some fighter tactics.
I'm pretty good in a Spit-8, 16, 5, also good in a C. 205, Hurri 1, 2c, F4U-1
But i really need help along the lines of furballing. (hurris c205, spits)
There is this one maneuver that I havent recorded mainly because when the camera is on, i usually get picked and it doesnt happen. So i will tell about it.
We'll just say I'm in my Hurri 2c vs. an A6M5. We will go on a convergence and we end up at the deck neck and neck. We end up almost side by side scissoring back and forth. I always keep losing those kind of fights. Where its almost like a figure 8 between the 2 planes. My question is, on certain situations, do i need to cut my throttle? Or can i half it and bring my nose up when I'm doing the maneuver? It's really frustrating.
Another tactic that always has gotten me (killed me, or almost have until the pilot made a mistake).
This one is when you go on a convergence, and I've always observed that when you go on a convergence, if you dont pull up, the other guy will. Well there was a few times in the DA when i did that and the other guy didnt do it. I thought the fight was won so i went down using my E and the guy turned it around on me and blew my butt out of the sky. I tried the same thing with him but i let him go up first. I tried to simulate what he did but he didnt over shoot. He was right on.
Now I'm thinking that if I'm on the top, instead of over shooting, nose down even more and try to end up on his tail and if i over shoot, i just keep going.
If I'm on bottom, I think I need bank left or right and just as he starts to pass me, bring my rudder up and do a barrel roll and after making the plane over shoot, end up on his 6. It sometimes works sometimes doesnt for both of them. Any suggestions?
Work to your strength and exploit their weaknesses. Like, you fly a Spit or Hurri? Spits and Hurri's have great handling, Spit has more speed though. Let's say you're fighting something simple, like a pony. You can't outrun the pony, but you can outmanuever him. Do like I do, and make a wide left/right turn and circle around on his tail, diving down on him. You will get on his tail before he can turn around, and you'll have him. It all depends on the conditions, usually your opponent won't see you before it's too late vice versa.
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Originally posted by humble
:aok :aok :aok
Even 15-20 minutes spent with a trainer is worth hours and hours of "normal" time in the MA or DA. Someone who has spent a significant amount of time with a variety of people will have a "better" feel for sorting out various components and hitting on the 1 or 2 key aspects that help the lightbulb go on. It's not just what your "doing", its what your thinking, what your seeing and how that translates into both action and timing.
A good trainer learns to manipulate the only variable he can control (himself) to bring out the best in you as well as learn how your wired. Even a good and helpful stick in the DA will tend to want to win (with a few notable exceptions like Batfink/Biggles who actually can "teach" as well {sure there are others as well}) were a good trainer has his ego checked at the door and will "let" you win if you choice the right option (well sometimes).
As an example I spent some time in the MWA last night tooling around in my A-20 and DaDonkey and I flew 7-8 hops vs each other over an hour or so. By the end of the "session" he smacked me with the same moves that had baffled him early actually managed to reverse my A-20 from 400 or so out on his 6 twice in the same fight to get a very well earned W where he'd have had an L before. These building blocks come one at a time and from various sources, we're all constantly learning stuff.
spend a couple of hours a week in the TA for a month or two and the rewards will stay with you for years. They are a very very talented bunch of guys (gals?) so take advantage.
I have to say snap was a very good teacher. At the beggining he would tell and show me what he did that earned him the win, and then would explain what I did (and did wrong) and what I should have done. Then, the things that I did start to do somewhat right (I hope:) ) he would then go over that, asking me what I did, and then explaining why and how that worked.
I learned SO MUCH MORE from that one little hour with snaphook then I would have flying a month in the LMA just flying around, because of the feedback and advice I got from him.
again snap!
donkey
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hehe Given the way you smacked me around at the end I think you got it down prett well:).
Was a fun time and glad to help out. We all owe somebody for taking the time to put us on the right track. I'm simply passing on what I can...
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Originally posted by mtnman
Some time spent in the TA with a trainer would really help here.
Even just a short amount of time will help more than loads of writing or MA time. Even DA time isn't so hot unless the guy you're working with is actively trying to help you figure things out.
For one, I'm a little confused over the exact situations you describe, and can see several different explanations to go along with your text. So, I don't even know where to start with a written fix.
For example, the merge where you describe yourself going up, but your opponent not doing it, and then turning around and killing you, could simply be a "rope".
What I envision may be entirely different than what you are trying to describe. For example, based on your text, your issue is with "merge", or "after the merge", or "1v1" tactics. If I was going to describe "furballing tactics" (title of the thread), the conversation would take on an entirely different light...
Scissors are great on paper, but in actual flight we can work on timing, etc, that is very hard to convey here. We can also point out other common mistakes and how to fix/avoid them.
Hit the TA, and try to hook up with a trainer.
MtnMan
Yep. I wish i had a Video i could show you that would explain it more, but im gonna go to the TA and get help.
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Originally posted by angelsandair
We'll just say I'm in my Hurri 2c vs. an A6M5. We will go on a convergence and we end up at the deck neck and neck. We end up almost side by side scissoring back and forth. I always keep losing those kind of fights. Where its almost like a figure 8 between the 2 planes. My question is, on certain situations, do i need to cut my throttle? Or can i half it and bring my nose up when I'm doing the maneuver? It's really frustrating.
First, the guys have it right, doing the TA will help a lot but what you say above leads me to believe you may not have a solid understanding of the different aircraft strengths and weaknesses. You need to do some study if you're going to get the most from training.
In your example, a IIC vs Zeke, given two equally skilled pilots and a neutral start the IIC will lose unless the Zeke makes a mistake. Why? Simple, the Zeke can out turn the IIC and the IIC is too slow to run away.
The IIC has three advantages over the Zeke. Its guns, its toughness, and ability to dive so you want to use these. The Zeke's advantages are better turn rate, turn radius, slow speed handling and agility but don't forget he's made of paper mache' and has so-so guns. Sooooo, what does this tell you? You want to maximize your opportunity for any shot on him, even if it means exchanging forward quarter shots. That doesn't mean just put your lift vector on him and pull, that won't work, instead use smart tactics.
A smart Zeke will avoid your guns on the first merge and then use his turn superiority and agility to just plant himself behind your wingline. If you don't have altitude to dive away that leaves you with guns and toughness. Try to force the fight into a series of beak-to-beak passes which means either a vertical or two-circle fight giving you the opportunity for forward quarter, high deflection angle shots. He may get a few shots on you also but the odds in this fight favor the IIC. Of course you can't do this forever, the longer the fight lasts the smaller your odds get. Sooner or later he will have enough angles on you for a kill.
If you're the IIC you do not want to get in a straight turning fight (including scissors) with someone that can out turn you. If you're in a neutral start you need to keep your speed up and use the vertical, not choose a flat scissors. The vertical is the only way to "out turn" an aircraft that can turn better than you. Let's use an extreme example. Say the Zeke is flat turning on the deck while you go straight up. Roll so your lift vector is on him and as you come over the top (hit the flaps) continue your roll putting your lift vector just a bit (maybe one plane length) behind him (don't forget to hit flaps up on the way down). The Zeke can turn all he wants but your roll will negate it. You probably won't be able to drop directly on his six o'clock but then you have a good high deflection shot as you dive down and then go up again.
A more likely scenario is where you use repeating high and low yo-yo's while he just keeps pulling hard for your six. Your high yo-yo's are negating the angles he's gaining and your low yo-yo's are keeping your E up for the next high yo-yo and giving you the opportunity for a shot as you cross his turn circle. You're using your strength (guns) against his weakness (rice paper construction). Of course, if the Zeke is smart he'll be using the vertical also. If he does then "Jam" him (pass as close as possible) as you go up. Chances are he'll maneuver to avoid a HO which gives you angles, do a quick vertical reversal after passing him (i.e., don't extend in the vertical otherwise he'll just meet you 180 out as the situation reverses itself) and you'll probably have a shot as he pulls up on the bottom of his loop.
Let's say you don't have a choice. You're on the deck, the Zeke jumps you and you reverse into him starting a flat scissors. If you're fast (well above corner velocity which is about 180 for the IIC) and he starts turning into you for the scissors cut the throttle and honk on a 6 G turn into him. Slap the throttle back to full +WEP as you get close to corner velocity. Are you losing E? Sure you are but it's better to trade E for angles and neutralize him than to let him turn inside you and end up behind your wingline. Remember, your best turn rate and smallest turn radius is at corner velocity.
Once you're in the flat scissors stay at full power and get your nose up above his (i.e., a higher angle relative to the deck). You will now be losing speed quicly but trading it for altitude separation. You want to work above and behind the Zeke. Converting more of your speed to a bit of altitude reduces your down range travel and gets you slow enough to get your flaps down. Use rudder (a lot) to help your reversals, keep your nose up and look for an opportunity for a good crossing shot. What's a good crossing shot? If you're sure you can get your nose on him that's a good crossing shot. Most likely you'll survive a couple of crossing shots from him as the Hurri is strong and the Zeke's guns are pretty weak. He will most likely not survive one good crossing shot from you but if you commit to a crossing shot by lowering your nose and miss, you're dead meat since you'll be out front as soon as he reverses again. I'll repeat one more time, given equal skills the Zeke will most likely win this battle. He knows to get slow and get his flaps out, he knows to work above and behind you and he knows you can't out run or out turn him. He needs to make a mistake (such as stay too fast, pull a little too hard and depart or commit to a bad crossing shot opportunity) if you're going to win.
This one is when you go on a convergence, and I've always observed that when you go on a convergence, if you dont pull up, the other guy will. Well there was a few times in the DA when i did that and the other guy didnt do it. I thought the fight was won so i went down using my E and the guy turned it around on me and blew my butt out of the sky. I tried the same thing with him but i let him go up first. I tried to simulate what he did but he didnt over shoot. He was right on.
Just a terminology thing but the term is "merge". If I understand your description you're falling for a trap. Most of the time you go vertical on the merge and the other guy doesn't he's dead but smart guys know a little trick. While you go up he doesn't turn level, he actually is turning nose low in an oblique turn. Not so nose-low as to significantly increase his speed and turn radius but probably 30 to 40 degrees below the horizon to maintain his speed near his corner velocity. What he's doing is maintaining his e while putting on his best turn turn rate.
As you reverse over the top he then times his pull into the vertical so as to pass you near 180 out. After the pass, he then immediately reverses and catches you coming back up because chances are you're well above corner velocity and have a very large turn radius. He's just turning inside you. The key here is energy control. More is not always better, in this case your excess speed is just causing a vertical overshoot so cut your throttle on the way down to maintain control of your E.
Also, the vertical merge is not limited to just the DA, it's situational dependant. Most aircraft that go vertical in the middle of a furball may as well just be yelling "come shoot my butt" (unless they have enough E to outzoom everyone) but there are plenty of opportunities to use this tactic in smaller engagements just as long as you have good SA. If you're in a 2v1 for instance (u being the 1) but each opponent extends to 5k after their pass then it's fine to use the vertical because you're really in two separate 1v1's (just work hard to make sure you know where the other bandit is and have a good feeling for when he'll be a threat and how long it'll take you to do your vertical move). On the other hand, if they stay close and work good section tactics (1 in, 2 off) then you need to extend and isolate the threat to one sector, not go vertical against 1 where you'll just be picked by 2.
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Originally posted by Mace2004
First, the guys have it right, doing the TA will help a lot but what you say above leads me to believe you may not have a solid understanding of the different aircraft strengths and weaknesses. You need to do some study if you're going to get the most from training.
In your example, a IIC vs Zeke, given two equally skilled pilots and a neutral start the IIC will lose unless the Zeke makes a mistake. Why? Simple, the Zeke can out turn the IIC and the IIC is too slow to run away.
The IIC has three advantages over the Zeke. Its guns, its toughness, and ability to dive so you want to use these. The Zeke's advantages are better turn rate, turn radius, slow speed handling and agility but don't forget he's made of paper mache' and has so-so guns. Sooooo, what does this tell you? You want to maximize your opportunity for any shot on him, even if it means exchanging forward quarter shots. That doesn't mean just put your lift vector on him and pull, that won't work, instead use smart tactics.
A smart Zeke will avoid your guns on the first merge and then use his turn superiority and agility to just plant himself behind your wingline. If you don't have altitude to dive away that leaves you with guns and toughness. Try to force the fight into a series of beak-to-beak passes which means either a vertical or two-circle fight giving you the opportunity for forward quarter, high deflection angle shots. He may get a few shots on you also but the odds in this fight favor the IIC. Of course you can't do this forever, the longer the fight lasts the smaller your odds get. Sooner or later he will have enough angles on you for a kill.
If you're the IIC you do not want to get in a straight turning fight (including scissors) with someone that can out turn you. If you're in a neutral start you need to keep your speed up and use the vertical, not choose a flat scissors. The vertical is the only way to "out turn" an aircraft that can turn better than you. Let's use an extreme example. Say the Zeke is flat turning on the deck while you go straight up. Roll so your lift vector is on him and as you come over the top (hit the flaps) continue your roll putting your lift vector just a bit (maybe one plane length) behind him (don't forget to hit flaps up on the way down). The Zeke can turn all he wants but your roll will negate it. You probably won't be able to drop directly on his six o'clock but then you have a good high deflection shot as you dive down and then go up again.
A more likely scenario is where you use repeating high and low yo-yo's while he just keeps pulling hard for your six. Your high yo-yo's are negating the angles he's gaining and your low yo-yo's are keeping your E up for the next high yo-yo and giving you the opportunity for a shot as you cross his turn circle. You're using your strength (guns) against his weakness (rice paper construction). Of course, if the Zeke is smart he'll be using the vertical also. If he does then "Jam" him (pass as close as possible) as you go up. Chances are he'll maneuver to avoid a HO which gives you angles, do a quick vertical reversal after passing him (i.e., don't extend in the vertical otherwise he'll just meet you 180 out as the situation reverses itself) and you'll probably have a shot as he pulls up on the bottom of his loop.
Let's say you don't have a choice. You're on the deck, the Zeke jumps you and you reverse into him starting a flat scissors. If you're fast (well above corner velocity which is about 180 for the IIC) and he starts turning into you for the scissors cut the throttle and honk on a 6 G turn into him. Slap the throttle back to full +WEP as you get close to corner velocity. Are you losing E? Sure you are but it's better to trade E for angles and neutralize him than to let him turn inside you and end up behind your wingline. Remember, your best turn rate and smallest turn radius is at corner velocity.
Once you're in the flat scissors stay at full power and get your nose up above his (i.e., a higher angle relative to the deck). You will now be losing speed quicly but trading it for altitude separation. You want to work above and behind the Zeke. Converting more of your speed to a bit of altitude reduces your down range travel and gets you slow enough to get your flaps down. Use rudder (a lot) to help your reversals, keep your nose up and look for an opportunity for a good crossing shot. What's a good crossing shot? If you're sure you can get your nose on him that's a good crossing shot. Most likely you'll survive a couple of crossing shots from him as the Hurri is strong and the Zeke's guns are pretty weak. He will most likely not survive one good crossing shot from you but if you commit to a crossing shot by lowering your nose and miss, you're dead meat since you'll be out front as soon as he reverses again. I'll repeat one more time, given equal skills the Zeke will most likely win this battle. He knows to get slow and get his flaps out, he knows to work above and behind you and he knows you can't out run or out turn him. He needs to make a mistake (such as stay too fast, pull a little too hard and depart or commit to a bad crossing shot opportunity) if you're going to win.
Just a terminology thing but the term is "merge". If I understand your description you're falling for a trap. Most of the time you go vertical on the merge and the other guy doesn't he's dead but smart guys know a little trick. While you go up he doesn't turn level, he actually is turning nose low in an oblique turn. Not so nose-low as to significantly increase his speed and turn radius but probably 30 to 40 degrees below the horizon to maintain his speed near his corner velocity. What he's doing is maintaining his e while putting on his best turn turn rate.
As you reverse over the top he then times his pull into the vertical so as to pass you near 180 out. After the pass, he then immediately reverses and catches you coming back up because chances are you're well above corner velocity and have a very large turn radius. He's just turning inside you. The key here is energy control. More is not always better, in this case your excess speed is just causing a vertical overshoot so cut your throttle on the way down to maintain control of your E.
Also, the vertical merge is not limited to just the DA, it's situational dependant. Most aircraft that go vertical in the middle of a furball may as well just be yelling "come shoot my butt" (unless they have enough E to outzoom everyone) but there are plenty of opportunities to use this tactic in smaller engagements just as long as you have good SA. If you're in a 2v1 for instance (u being the 1) but each opponent extends to 5k after their pass then it's fine to use the vertical because you're really in two separate 1v1's (just work hard to make sure you know where the other bandit is and have a good feeling for when he'll be a threat and how long it'll take you to do your vertical move). On the other hand, if they stay close and work good section tactics (1 in, 2 off) then you need to extend and isolate the threat to one sector, not go vertical against 1 where you'll just be picked by 2.
Well, its not always with just Zekes, I'm also talking about Spit 16s and spit 8s. They can beat my little 2c on this certain maneuver too.
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Originally posted by Mace2004
First, the guys have it right, doing the TA will help a lot but what you say above leads me to believe you may not have a solid understanding of the different aircraft strengths and weaknesses. You need to do some study if you're going to get the most from training.
In your example, a IIC vs Zeke, given two equally skilled pilots and a neutral start the IIC will lose unless the Zeke makes a mistake. Why? Simple, the Zeke can out turn the IIC and the IIC is too slow to run away.
The IIC has three advantages over the Zeke. Its guns, its toughness, and ability to dive so you want to use these. The Zeke's advantages are better turn rate, turn radius, slow speed handling and agility but don't forget he's made of paper mache' and has so-so guns. Sooooo, what does this tell you? You want to maximize your opportunity for any shot on him, even if it means exchanging forward quarter shots. That doesn't mean just put your lift vector on him and pull, that won't work, instead use smart tactics.
A smart Zeke will avoid your guns on the first merge and then use his turn superiority and agility to just plant himself behind your wingline. If you don't have altitude to dive away that leaves you with guns and toughness. Try to force the fight into a series of beak-to-beak passes which means either a vertical or two-circle fight giving you the opportunity for forward quarter, high deflection angle shots. He may get a few shots on you also but the odds in this fight favor the IIC. Of course you can't do this forever, the longer the fight lasts the smaller your odds get. Sooner or later he will have enough angles on you for a kill.
If you're the IIC you do not want to get in a straight turning fight (including scissors) with someone that can out turn you. If you're in a neutral start you need to keep your speed up and use the vertical, not choose a flat scissors. The vertical is the only way to "out turn" an aircraft that can turn better than you. Let's use an extreme example. Say the Zeke is flat turning on the deck while you go straight up. Roll so your lift vector is on him and as you come over the top (hit the flaps) continue your roll putting your lift vector just a bit (maybe one plane length) behind him (don't forget to hit flaps up on the way down). The Zeke can turn all he wants but your roll will negate it. You probably won't be able to drop directly on his six o'clock but then you have a good high deflection shot as you dive down and then go up again.
A more likely scenario is where you use repeating high and low yo-yo's while he just keeps pulling hard for your six. Your high yo-yo's are negating the angles he's gaining and your low yo-yo's are keeping your E up for the next high yo-yo and giving you the opportunity for a shot as you cross his turn circle. You're using your strength (guns) against his weakness (rice paper construction). Of course, if the Zeke is smart he'll be using the vertical also. If he does then "Jam" him (pass as close as possible) as you go up. Chances are he'll maneuver to avoid a HO which gives you angles, do a quick vertical reversal after passing him (i.e., don't extend in the vertical otherwise he'll just meet you 180 out as the situation reverses itself) and you'll probably have a shot as he pulls up on the bottom of his loop.
Let's say you don't have a choice. You're on the deck, the Zeke jumps you and you reverse into him starting a flat scissors. If you're fast (well above corner velocity which is about 180 for the IIC) and he starts turning into you for the scissors cut the throttle and honk on a 6 G turn into him. Slap the throttle back to full +WEP as you get close to corner velocity. Are you losing E? Sure you are but it's better to trade E for angles and neutralize him than to let him turn inside you and end up behind your wingline. Remember, your best turn rate and smallest turn radius is at corner velocity.
Once you're in the flat scissors stay at full power and get your nose up above his (i.e., a higher angle relative to the deck). You will now be losing speed quicly but trading it for altitude separation. You want to work above and behind the Zeke. Converting more of your speed to a bit of altitude reduces your down range travel and gets you slow enough to get your flaps down. Use rudder (a lot) to help your reversals, keep your nose up and look for an opportunity for a good crossing shot. What's a good crossing shot? If you're sure you can get your nose on him that's a good crossing shot. Most likely you'll survive a couple of crossing shots from him as the Hurri is strong and the Zeke's guns are pretty weak. He will most likely not survive one good crossing shot from you but if you commit to a crossing shot by lowering your nose and miss, you're dead meat since you'll be out front as soon as he reverses again. I'll repeat one more time, given equal skills the Zeke will most likely win this battle. He knows to get slow and get his flaps out, he knows to work above and behind you and he knows you can't out run or out turn him. He needs to make a mistake (such as stay too fast, pull a little too hard and depart or commit to a bad crossing shot opportunity) if you're going to win.
Just a terminology thing but the term is "merge". If I understand your description you're falling for a trap. Most of the time you go vertical on the merge and the other guy doesn't he's dead but smart guys know a little trick. While you go up he doesn't turn level, he actually is turning nose low in an oblique turn. Not so nose-low as to significantly increase his speed and turn radius but probably 30 to 40 degrees below the horizon to maintain his speed near his corner velocity. What he's doing is maintaining his e while putting on his best turn turn rate.
As you reverse over the top he then times his pull into the vertical so as to pass you near 180 out. After the pass, he then immediately reverses and catches you coming back up because chances are you're well above corner velocity and have a very large turn radius. He's just turning inside you. The key here is energy control. More is not always better, in this case your excess speed is just causing a vertical overshoot so cut your throttle on the way down to maintain control of your E.
Also, the vertical merge is not limited to just the DA, it's situational dependant. Most aircraft that go vertical in the middle of a furball may as well just be yelling "come shoot my butt" (unless they have enough E to outzoom everyone) but there are plenty of opportunities to use this tactic in smaller engagements just as long as you have good SA. If you're in a 2v1 for instance (u being the 1) but each opponent extends to 5k after their pass then it's fine to use the vertical because you're really in two separate 1v1's (just work hard to make sure you know where the other bandit is and have a good feeling for when he'll be a threat and how long it'll take you to do your vertical move). On the other hand, if they stay close and work good section tactics (1 in, 2 off) then you need to extend and isolate the threat to one sector, not go vertical against 1 where you'll just be picked by 2.
Mace.......your replies are amongst the most informative that we get to read.......thanks!!!!!
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Originally posted by Mace2004
First, the guys have it right, doing the TA will help a lot but what you say above leads me to believe you may not have a solid understanding of the different aircraft strengths and weaknesses. You need to do some study if you're going to get the most from training.
In your example, a IIC vs Zeke, given two equally skilled pilots and a neutral start the IIC will lose unless the Zeke makes a mistake. Why? Simple, the Zeke can out turn the IIC and the IIC is too slow to run away.
The IIC has three advantages over the Zeke. Its guns, its toughness, and ability to dive so you want to use these. The Zeke's advantages are better turn rate, turn radius, slow speed handling and agility but don't forget he's made of paper mache' and has so-so guns. Sooooo, what does this tell you? You want to maximize your opportunity for any shot on him, even if it means exchanging forward quarter shots. That doesn't mean just put your lift vector on him and pull, that won't work, instead use smart tactics.
A smart Zeke will avoid your guns on the first merge and then use his turn superiority and agility to just plant himself behind your wingline. If you don't have altitude to dive away that leaves you with guns and toughness. Try to force the fight into a series of beak-to-beak passes which means either a vertical or two-circle fight giving you the opportunity for forward quarter, high deflection angle shots. He may get a few shots on you also but the odds in this fight favor the IIC. Of course you can't do this forever, the longer the fight lasts the smaller your odds get. Sooner or later he will have enough angles on you for a kill.
If you're the IIC you do not want to get in a straight turning fight (including scissors) with someone that can out turn you. If you're in a neutral start you need to keep your speed up and use the vertical, not choose a flat scissors. The vertical is the only way to "out turn" an aircraft that can turn better than you. Let's use an extreme example. Say the Zeke is flat turning on the deck while you go straight up. Roll so your lift vector is on him and as you come over the top (hit the flaps) continue your roll putting your lift vector just a bit (maybe one plane length) behind him (don't forget to hit flaps up on the way down). The Zeke can turn all he wants but your roll will negate it. You probably won't be able to drop directly on his six o'clock but then you have a good high deflection shot as you dive down and then go up again.
A more likely scenario is where you use repeating high and low yo-yo's while he just keeps pulling hard for your six. Your high yo-yo's are negating the angles he's gaining and your low yo-yo's are keeping your E up for the next high yo-yo and giving you the opportunity for a shot as you cross his turn circle. You're using your strength (guns) against his weakness (rice paper construction). Of course, if the Zeke is smart he'll be using the vertical also. If he does then "Jam" him (pass as close as possible) as you go up. Chances are he'll maneuver to avoid a HO which gives you angles, do a quick vertical reversal after passing him (i.e., don't extend in the vertical otherwise he'll just meet you 180 out as the situation reverses itself) and you'll probably have a shot as he pulls up on the bottom of his loop.
Let's say you don't have a choice. You're on the deck, the Zeke jumps you and you reverse into him starting a flat scissors. If you're fast (well above corner velocity which is about 180 for the IIC) and he starts turning into you for the scissors cut the throttle and honk on a 6 G turn into him. Slap the throttle back to full +WEP as you get close to corner velocity. Are you losing E? Sure you are but it's better to trade E for angles and neutralize him than to let him turn inside you and end up behind your wingline. Remember, your best turn rate and smallest turn radius is at corner velocity.
Once you're in the flat scissors stay at full power and get your nose up above his (i.e., a higher angle relative to the deck). You will now be losing speed quicly but trading it for altitude separation. You want to work above and behind the Zeke. Converting more of your speed to a bit of altitude reduces your down range travel and gets you slow enough to get your flaps down. Use rudder (a lot) to help your reversals, keep your nose up and look for an opportunity for a good crossing shot. What's a good crossing shot? If you're sure you can get your nose on him that's a good crossing shot. Most likely you'll survive a couple of crossing shots from him as the Hurri is strong and the Zeke's guns are pretty weak. He will most likely not survive one good crossing shot from you but if you commit to a crossing shot by lowering your nose and miss, you're dead meat since you'll be out front as soon as he reverses again. I'll repeat one more time, given equal skills the Zeke will most likely win this battle. He knows to get slow and get his flaps out, he knows to work above and behind you and he knows you can't out run or out turn him. He needs to make a mistake (such as stay too fast, pull a little too hard and depart or commit to a bad crossing shot opportunity) if you're going to win.
Just a terminology thing but the term is "merge". If I understand your description you're falling for a trap. Most of the time you go vertical on the merge and the other guy doesn't he's dead but smart guys know a little trick. While you go up he doesn't turn level, he actually is turning nose low in an oblique turn. Not so nose-low as to significantly increase his speed and turn radius but probably 30 to 40 degrees below the horizon to maintain his speed near his corner velocity. What he's doing is maintaining his e while putting on his best turn turn rate.
As you reverse over the top he then times his pull into the vertical so as to pass you near 180 out. After the pass, he then immediately reverses and catches you coming back up because chances are you're well above corner velocity and have a very large turn radius. He's just turning inside you. The key here is energy control. More is not always better, in this case your excess speed is just causing a vertical overshoot so cut your throttle on the way down to maintain control of your E.
Also, the vertical merge is not limited to just the DA, it's situational dependant. Most aircraft that go vertical in the middle of a furball may as well just be yelling "come shoot my butt" (unless they have enough E to outzoom everyone) but there are plenty of opportunities to use this tactic in smaller engagements just as long as you have good SA. If you're in a 2v1 for instance (u being the 1) but each opponent extends to 5k after their pass then it's fine to use the vertical because you're really in two separate 1v1's (just work hard to make sure you know where the other bandit is and have a good feeling for when he'll be a threat and how long it'll take you to do your vertical move). On the other hand, if they stay close and work good section tactics (1 in, 2 off) then you need to extend and isolate the threat to one sector, not go vertical against 1 where you'll just be picked by 2.
a note on the zekes......there's only 2 types i ever have trouble with when i'm in the a6m5b........thsat's another zeke, and the guy that's smart enough to not fall into my fight..although i take the 5b since it's a bit faster than the 2....and this makes it much harder for someone to gaain seperation from me....i noted you said a comment about the zekes guns being fairly weak....and i note this on the american rides, but not against the hurri or the spits...but then i'm normally within 200 yards when i get my shots on them....and if well placed, the wings go bye bye:D
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Originally posted by angelsandair
Well, its not always with just Zekes, I'm also talking about Spit 16s and spit 8s. They can beat my little 2c on this certain maneuver too.
well, the hurri2c, can out turn any of the spits.....but none of the zekes,,,,,,do like mace said, and keep fast if yur in hurri against the zeke.......i think at most, i'll go 1 or 2 turns with the zeke, but then i ru....errr...extend out to regain my e, and try to get him a bit too fast.....but there's guys that can actually control the zeke at very high speed too.......
try the TA too...
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Furball tactics.
Never stay still for a second. Take quick decisive shots. Swap targets if a snapshot opportunity arises. Try and kill anything that can outturn you first (if they aren't looking at you).
Most of the time you can't really plan whats going to happen because its madness but if you keep your SA real tight and eliminate the threats you can improve your chances of being the last plane standing.
When you do fight your way out of one, with a bag full of kills and you get her home worse for wear, nothing can beat that feeling. Especially if you are outnumbered.
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Originally posted by Mace2004
Remember, your best turn rate and smallest turn radius is at corner velocity.
mace, you mention "Corner Velocity" but dont relly mention how it affects your plane of flight in general. I have never heard the term before, but if someone could explain it I would appreciate it.
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Originally posted by uberslet
mace, you mention "Corner Velocity" but dont relly mention how it affects your plane of flight in general. I have never heard the term before, but if someone could explain it I would appreciate it.
Sure thing.
The name comes from the fact that it's the upper left "corner" of a V-n diagram and is referred to in general aviation as "Maneuvering Speed". V stands for Velocity and n stands for normal acceleration (i.e., G). Here's a link to an example (http://www.apstraining.com/article7_fci_training_jun03.htm).
The curved line starting at 0, 0 and going up is the positive lift limit (the one going down is negative lift limit). Lift limit being the maximum amount of lift (G) the wing can generate at the given speed WITHOUT STALLING. So, on that example diagram you can see that particular airplane can generate about 2.7 G at 100kts. If you pull harder, you will stall.
If you follow the lift line up to the top (point C on the diagram) it will intersect your maximum G limit for the aircraft at about 120kts. This is the "corner" which gives you the term "corner velocity". That's the point at which the wing can generate more G than the airplane can physically handle without damage, in this case about 3.8 G (obviously, this example is not a fighter which can typically handle up to 6 G or more). If you're faster than 120kts you are G limited. While the wing can generate more G you would do it at the expense of overstressing the aircraft.
So, since turn rates relate directly to G (higher G = higher turn rates) and G is directly related to speed, corner velocity is that speed which gives you the maximum turn rate without overstress.
Also, since turn radius is directly related to speed and turn rate anything over corner velocity will be limited by G-limits and increase your turn radius.
In summary, corner velocity gives you your maximum turn rate and smallest turn radius. Think of it as the speed at which the airplane "corners" (turns) best. We don't have all the V-n diagrams but you can figure out an approximate corner velocity for your aircraft. Start at about 250mph and do a high G level turn. Pull to the edge of blackout. As you decelerate (you will in a level turn) increase your pull to stay at the edge of blackout until the stick is as far aft as it can go (you can't pull any more). That speed is your approximate corner velocity. For WWII fighters the speed ranges from about 180 to 240 mph.
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Originally posted by Bruv119
Furball tactics.
Never stay still for a second. Take quick decisive shots. Swap targets if a snapshot opportunity arises. Try and kill anything that can outturn you first (if they aren't looking at you).
Most of the time you can't really plan whats going to happen because its madness but if you keep your SA real tight and eliminate the threats you can improve your chances of being the last plane standing.
When you do fight your way out of one, with a bag full of kills and you get her home worse for wear, nothing can beat that feeling. Especially if you are outnumbered.
Yep. If you can hit the guys that are the biggest threats first. To me that's the big cannon birds or the best turning birds before they get slow. Keeping an eye out for the guys going light speed too so you can get out of the way as they blow through for the pick and then extend to the next sector. I die more often then I survive in a furball as the old 38G is a huge target, but there is nothing better then coming out the other side of a furball wondering how you are still flying and they're all gone :)