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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: TheFinale on March 02, 2008, 07:03:43 PM

Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: TheFinale on March 02, 2008, 07:03:43 PM
Wow... I was flying in an F4u-1D today and I mistook it for a perk plane.  I was shooting down just about anyone in many different scenarios.  I don't remember the Corsairs being this powerful.  Did something change??
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Husky01 on March 02, 2008, 07:05:50 PM
The 1A is the newest of the Hogs.....
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Blooz on March 02, 2008, 07:34:12 PM
Corsairs have always been powerful.

Their only drawbacks are climb and acceleration.

It's a great plane.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Wingnutt on March 02, 2008, 07:50:13 PM
I cant fly them because I use track IR (refer to BUGS)  but the few times I have it seems they are REALLY REALLY docile near stall speed..  seems a little strange.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Bronk on March 02, 2008, 07:53:58 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Wingnutt
I cant fly them because I use track IR (refer to BUGS)  but the few times I have it seems they are REALLY REALLY docile near stall speed..  seems a little strange.


Works fine with my trackIR.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: SgtPappy on March 02, 2008, 08:40:55 PM
There's a lot of controversy regarding the F4U Corsair, mainly its extremely docile nature at low speeds and amazing turn rate.

Until I finish my education on physics or until someone somehow indefinitely proves or fixes the F4U, I've stopped flying the big blue. It's a big issue in this game for nerds like me.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: TheFinale on March 02, 2008, 08:43:45 PM
It is difficult to test in the game online because sometimes it appears I can out turn a n1k or spit 16 when I can't.  They just happen to be poor pilots.  Just wondering if anyone really knows if anything has completely changed.  Thanks.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Urchin on March 02, 2008, 09:10:23 PM
Well, the F4U-1 does have a slightly smaller turn radius than the Spit-16 with full flaps.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Arlo on March 02, 2008, 09:13:28 PM
Both with full flaps or the dash one (or 1a) with full flaps and the Spitty with none?
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: SgtPappy on March 02, 2008, 09:35:50 PM
Quote
Originally posted by TheFinale
It is difficult to test in the game online because sometimes it appears I can out turn a n1k or spit 16 when I can't.  They just happen to be poor pilots.  Just wondering if anyone really knows if anything has completely changed.  Thanks.


You CAN outturn a Spit16 and a Niki. Aces Hish II Aircraft Comparison (http://www.gonzoville.com/charts)

Check out the above link. It shows actual in-game calculated data which is still the current data for the most part (with the exception of the Spitfires, which I think are incorrect).

Under full flaps, the Spitfires WILL be outturned by the Hog though smart Spitfire pilots don't just flat turn.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Kweassa on March 02, 2008, 10:28:16 PM
Just for comparison, try looking at the figures from different testings.

 They are from;

* The Complete Aces High2 Fighter Turn Performance (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=155592&highlight=complete+turn)
* The Complete Aces High 2 Fighter Turn performance (revised 2.06) (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166537&highlight=complete+turn)

 These are the tests I've done during versions 2.05 to 2.06, before Mosq's version of testings were compiled for AH Fighter Comparisons page. They show somewhat different figures for the F4Us.

 The below is a list of turn radius for planes engaged in full flaps, starting from the smallest turning plane, and listed upto the P-38J. Some of the planes are highlighted as a marker for comparing performance.


[b]A6M2: 104.6m[/b]
Hurricane Mk.I: 111.0m
A6M5: 115.3m
Spitfire Mk.I: 117.3m
Hurricane Mk.IIc:         123.8m
FM-2: 128.1m
Ki-84-I-Ko: 133.2m
[b]Spitfire Mk.IX: 134.3m[/b]
Spitfire Mk.V: 134.5m
Seafire Mk.II: 135.8m
F4F-4: 139.5m
Hurricane Mk.IId:         140.3m
Bf110C-4:         142.3m
[b]N1K2-J: 143.0m[/b]
[b]F4U-4: 144.7m[/b]
[b]Spitfire Mk.IX(50cal): 146.4m[/b]
P-38G: 148.6m
[b]F4U-1D: 148.7m[/b]
Bf110G-2:         149.5m
[b]F4U-1: 150.9m[/b]
[b]Bf109E-4:        151.1m[/b]
Spitfire Mk.XIV(50cal): 151.1m
Spitfire Mk.XIV:         152.4m
La-5FN 152.4m
La-7(3x20mm): 152.4m
La-7: 153.6m
[b]F4U-1C: 156.6m[/b]
[b]P-38J: 156.8m[/b]



 My testings were done before the addition of some new planes and recent changes concerning some FM aspects. The main difference with my testings and Mosq's, is that I've made extensive use of some of the in-game features to minimize human error in determining the true turn radius of the planes.

 As you can see, in these testings (before the FM change) the performance of the F4U was a bit more in line with the more common belief amongst AH gamers. The "1st Tier" of tight turning planes are the A6Ms and Hurricanes, and the Spitfires and the N1K2 makes up the "2nd Tier".

 In the turn radius comparisons at AH Fighter Comparisons Page, the F4U-1 ranks somewhere between the "1st Tier" and the "2nd Tier", physically outturning Spits and N1Ks and Ki-84s in the pure radius.

 This is especially interesting to note, since when I've first done these tests, I was already thinking the F4U turned too well - since the general turn radius performance was matching those of the Spit9 with 50cals and  N1K2s. In other words, this was before the FM change, a different test figure from those of Mosq's, and still I was already thinking the F4Us turned too good.

 
 So more or less, I'm thinking it could be said that the F4Us always had very generous flaps... and it was just unnoticed until recently.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Adonai on March 02, 2008, 10:47:41 PM
Take a look at the F4u's wings and wonder why it can out turn just about anything. Ive been begging for better turn fighter then flying only spits or Zekes and fell in love with my F4u. Yes the acell is horribly poor, and climb rate means you probably want to take off from a rear base like in a P47, but one thing Corsairs love is SPEED, once you get it up there, its pretty high end, not fast as La7 or P51, but will out run quite a few planes.

Take it from me its the perfect turn fighter, You can out turn anything faster, and out run anything that out turns it. Yes the Table shows full flaps its turn radius is rather excellent, but most the fights ive had I've simply out turned spits in 1-2 notch flaps on a co-alt merge and won the fight.

Diving is another good quality but not entirely that good. A Jug will run from it and P51 also, since Accel is poor, diving away you can be "caught" in a dive, which ive had happen, Spit 16 got behind me and flap was damaged, only thing I could do was dive, except Spit 16 got into the dive faster and nailed me.

However I rank F4u the finest fighter in the game, granted its like a P51, wont do anything top notch (out run la7 or out turn zeke) but its attributes are pretty much on par, P51 marginally better at 8eny, and F4u-1a at 15 eny.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: moot on March 02, 2008, 11:56:44 PM
Kweassa how about those figures for one notch of flaps and full flaps?
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Adonai on March 03, 2008, 08:46:02 AM
Quote
Originally posted by moot
Kweassa how about those figures for one notch of flaps and full flaps?


That is something I would like to have, what turn radius is for all the Hogs with 1 - all flaps down, still have not found that yet.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Krusty on March 03, 2008, 09:00:56 AM
adonai, go back to the f4u thread in the aircraft forum: Nothing special about the F4u wing. Being a little thicker doesn't mean it's going to be a super turning plane, especially when history does not support this conclusion.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: SEraider on March 03, 2008, 12:05:38 PM
Is this test based on full throttle, WEP or no WEP?
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: SEraider on March 03, 2008, 12:06:17 PM
You mean to tell me the LA7's don't turn well??:rolleyes:
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Blooz on March 03, 2008, 03:40:25 PM
Got to be below 180mph to deploy first notch of flap on an LA7.

A corsair can be inside your turn easily way before then.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Rich46yo on March 03, 2008, 04:14:59 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Blooz
Got to be below 180mph to deploy first notch of flap on an LA7.

A corsair can be inside your turn easily way before then.


                I remember when I discovered this for the first time.:huh  It was ugly. The Corsairs are deceptively effective airplanes.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Whisky58 on March 03, 2008, 04:39:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by SgtPappy

Under full flaps, the Spitfires WILL be outturned by the Hog though smart Spitfire pilots don't just flat turn.


Exactly. Why try to out-flat turn a Corsair that's using flaps at <180 mph when many planes can out accelerate & outclimb it, go into vertical, then drop down on the great wallowing Hog, floundering around below?

Great ground attack plane tho'.  Using gear as dive brakes facilitates pin-point bombing.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Razgriz110 on March 03, 2008, 08:55:11 PM
i hate this bird so much, i fly a 205
and when i encounter one and manage to
get on its 6 o'clock i always unload, and i know i hit
because i see the pieces fall off them and the smoke come out
but i rarely shoot one down:furious :cry
good bird though
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Lusche on March 03, 2008, 09:04:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
Works fine with my trackIR.


Sure?

Could you please take two screenshots: one rear view using TIR, and one using conventional view with TIR diabled.

I get this:
(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/5774/ahss403fs0.jpg)
(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4078/ahss404qo2.jpg)

There is a clear difference between both. Using TIR  I just can't get my head  as far away from headrest as with conventional hatview

There is a hard limit on max distance I can move my head with TIR, but that limit is not imposed by TIR software itself.


It happens in some other planes too, but in the F4U's that effect is most prominent.


(See also http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=217831 )
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Bronk on March 03, 2008, 09:19:40 PM
Lusche are you useing vector?
I have no trouble getting that bottom view Track enabled.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Lusche on March 03, 2008, 09:30:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
Lusche are you useing vector?
I have no trouble getting that bottom view Track enabled.


I have TIR 4, so of course I have vector. Free moving head in every axis.

I now guess you aren't using vector? If yes, that would explain the difference: In that case the x/y/z position would be determined just like standard AH views using the arrow keys.
But in the 6DOF version, longitudonal axis movement is severly limited in F4U's.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Wingnutt on March 03, 2008, 11:24:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
I have TIR 4, so of course I have vector. Free moving head in every axis.

I now guess you aren't using vector? If yes, that would explain the difference: In that case the x/y/z position would be determined just like standard AH views using the arrow keys.
But in the 6DOF version, longitudonal axis movement is severly limited in F4U's.


same here,

TIR4 with Track Clip pro..

Corsair, hellcat, FM2 off the top of my head..  all have the issue as shown above.

EDIT: the problem with the corsair also manifests itself when trying to look straight up, or high 6.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Adonai on March 03, 2008, 11:27:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Whisky58
Exactly. Why try to out-flat turn a Corsair that's using flaps at <180 mph when many planes can out accelerate & outclimb it, go into vertical, then drop down on the great wallowing Hog, floundering around below?

Great ground attack plane tho'.  Using gear as dive brakes facilitates pin-point bombing.


Easier said then done, any smart Hog pilot wont be doing 180mph but more likely 400+ so those going vert get a huge suprise since we can out-reverse any plane in the game. Believe me had many spit16's and La's try to out vert me, and lost.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: kvuo75 on March 04, 2008, 02:03:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Adonai
Easier said then done, any smart Hog pilot wont be doing 180mph but more likely 400+ so those going vert get a huge suprise since we can out-reverse any plane in the game. Believe me had many spit16's and La's try to out vert me, and lost.



"G D c-hog came out of nowhere!"
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Gixer on March 04, 2008, 03:33:22 AM
It's the Hog's ability to endlessly float around the sky with flaps out at minimal speed seems overly modeled imho considering the aircrafts size and weight.


...-Gixer
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Blooz on March 04, 2008, 05:25:04 AM
If you get a hog with flaps out, floating around at minimal speed and can't kill it in the three minutes it takes for it to gain it's energy back the problem isn't the flight model.

It's you.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Adonai on March 04, 2008, 01:36:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Gixer
It's the Hog's ability to endlessly float around the sky with flaps out at minimal speed seems overly modeled imho considering the aircrafts size and weight.


...-Gixer


So you actually Flew a hog and know this for fact? Perhaps sending your information to HTC with proof would further help them fix it. Otherwise I believe they taken the information from more knowledgeable source.

From what I've read on the design of the Hog it was intended to be a high speed (over 400 mph) interceptor that just because of its wing designs, turned out to be more maneuverable then what origionally was thought.

From what I read only thing I knock about F4u is flaps should be able to be drawn at 400mph+ Speed as the P51, However pilots considered this dangerous for damage of the wings (only one account of a pilot saying this not entirely creditable)
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Adonai on March 04, 2008, 01:38:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Blooz
If you get a hog with flaps out, floating around at minimal speed and can't kill it in the three minutes it takes for it to gain it's energy back the problem isn't the flight model.

It's you.


One way to kill a hog is get him to slow down to that minimal speed then use your acceleration and climb rate to zoom away and come back on a Hog with no speed to defend itself.

Unfortunally only people I've faced either try out turning the Hog or BnZ
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Whisky58 on March 04, 2008, 01:42:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Adonai
Easier said then done, any smart Hog pilot wont be doing 180mph but more likely 400+ so those going vert get a huge suprise since we can out-reverse any plane in the game. Believe me had many spit16's and La's try to out vert me, and lost.


I agree entirely, but the thrust of these posts seems to be "how great the Hog is at out-turning Spits, Niks, La7s etc with flaps out".  It handles well at speed, good roll, good dive & loads of momentum out of a dive. I can't believe any WW2 Corsair pilot would've relinquished those advantages & deliberately got into a flaps down turning fight with Zeros & Niks as an offensive manouevre. It's a last chance, desperate, defensive exercise. Flaps are for landing.
There's a lot of not so smart Hog pilots around.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Gixer on March 05, 2008, 02:39:27 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Blooz
If you get a hog with flaps out, floating around at minimal speed and can't kill it in the three minutes it takes for it to gain it's energy back the problem isn't the flight model.

It's you.


Thanks for the ACM advice Ace. But that does nothing to answer the question regarding flaps and low speed modeling.


...-Gixer
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: SD67 on March 05, 2008, 02:53:04 AM
I think the Hog's model has issues. It's stall is nothing like how it has been documented. IMO it's been "dumbed down" to cater for newer inexperienced players.:noid
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Gixer on March 05, 2008, 02:58:29 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Adonai
So you actually Flew a hog and know this for fact? Perhaps sending your information to HTC with proof would further help them fix it. Otherwise I believe they taken the information from more knowledgeable source.


And have you actually flown a Hog to know this not to be a fact?? No I didn't think so. So keep the wise comments to yourself.

And I doubt very much that Hog pilots in real life dumped out flaps to out roll,turn a zeke at the very low speeds possible in AH. Dropping landing gear as well?? :rolleyes:

All I stated was that the low speed flaps maneuverability seems over modeled given the aircrafts known weight/size. Wasn't looking to get into any petty argument about plane modeling.


...-Gixer
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Squire on March 05, 2008, 03:01:09 AM
With "Enable Stall Limiter" in flight options, there is no reason to have any of the a/c FMs dumbed down. Not to mention auto takeoffs. How much easier does the game need to be for n00bs?

Just saying, I have no idea if the F4U-1 needs looking at or not.

Generally, I hear a lot of conspiracy theories about plane X, Y, Z, and I dont think HTC deliberately f**ks them up for "gamey" reasons.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Adonai on March 05, 2008, 06:55:55 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Gixer
And have you actually flown a Hog to know this not to be a fact?? No I didn't think so. So keep the wise comments to yourself.

And I doubt very much that Hog pilots in real life dumped out flaps to out roll,turn a zeke at the very low speeds possible in AH. Dropping landing gear as well?? :rolleyes:

All I stated was that the low speed flaps maneuverability seems over modeled given the aircrafts known weight/size. Wasn't looking to get into any petty argument about plane modeling.


...-Gixer


You Did say And YOU quoted "It's the Hog's ability to endlessly float around the sky with flaps out at minimal speed seems overly modeled imho considering the aircrafts size and weight."

So its not a Wise comment, just asking if you dont have evidence or Historical proof this wasn't accurate, don't make false pretext. If you do however, please contact HTC with your information sure they'd love to fix the issue.

"
And I doubt very much that Hog pilots in real life dumped out flaps to out roll,turn a zeke at the very low speeds possible in AH."

Course they didn't, well documented they used Boom and Zoom tactics stated by Ira Kepford of VF-17. However Using Gears was a factor in dive bombing for Hogs, instead of adding dive flaps, they simply strengthened the gears so a hog could dive to 350mph with gears down to slow down.

Of course I see your point in saying "well cartoon hog dropped his gears and dove on me, then turn fighting" yes, this is a video game sir, people do weird stuff.
Title: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Adonai on March 05, 2008, 06:58:52 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
With "Enable Stall Limiter" in flight options, there is no reason to have any of the a/c FMs dumbed down. Not to mention auto takeoffs. How much easier does the game need to be for n00bs?

Just saying, I have no idea if the F4U-1 needs looking at or not.

Generally, I hear a lot of conspiracy theories about plane X, Y, Z, and I dont think HTC deliberately f**ks them up for "gamey" reasons.


I highly doubt the Model was dumbed down, hence trying to land a hog has the real life issue of bouncing on landing and when stalling rolling a hard left. (Hense the Hogs nickname ensign eliminator)

Any chance Skuzzy could drop some information on whether hog is accurate to date and if so, when's last time the model has been worked on?

I do remember the F4u-1a being last hog introduced to aces high, not sure if the other hogs have been worked on or not.
Title: Re: The NEW F4u!
Post by: dedalos on March 06, 2008, 09:14:12 AM
You would think that the guys that have been here for a while would know better.  I don't remember the date but some time ago there were some changes made.  F4Us, 109s, and Spits became very close.  In the early days of AHII if I saw an F4U all I thought was "ahhh, here is an easy kill".  Same with 109s.  That is not the case anymore.  Not saying anything about right or wrong.  Just that they were changed.

You can actually pin point the time of the change by figuring out when some of the vets started flying F4Us.

Oh, the ability of the F4U to bring its nose up with full flaps and gear down does seem kind of strange
Title: Re: The NEW F4u!
Post by: Adonai on March 06, 2008, 09:33:12 AM
Oh, the ability of the F4U to bring its nose up with full flaps and gear down does seem kind of strange

Never seen people do this then again, people do really WEIRD stuff, for one, dropping gears to dive bomb is historically what F4u pilots did, I rather dive in at 550 then come in nice and slow for ack to murder me.
Title: Re: The NEW F4u!
Post by: mtnman on March 06, 2008, 12:31:29 PM
Sorry- disregard this, I meant to post it elsewhere...

MtnMan
Title: Re: The NEW F4u!
Post by: SD67 on March 06, 2008, 02:18:44 PM
Duly disregarded...