Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Charon on March 07, 2008, 12:35:44 PM
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No, this is not from The Onion.
City may ban little baggies
COUNCIL | They're 'Marketing 101' for drug dealers, cop says
March 5, 2008
BY FRAN SPIELMAN City Hall Reporter
Tiny plastic bags used to sell small quantities of heroin, crack cocaine, marijuana and other drugs would be banned in Chicago, under a crackdown advanced Tuesday by a City Council committee.
Ald. Robert Fioretti (2nd) persuaded the Health Committee to ban possession of "self-sealing plastic bags under two inches in either height or width," after picking up 15 of the bags on a recent Sunday afternoon stroll through a West Side park.
Lt. Kevin Navarro, commanding officer of the Chicago Police Department's Narcotics and Gang Unit, said the ordinance will be an "important tool" to go after grocery stores, health food stores and other businesses. The bags are used by the thousand to sell small quantities of drugs at $10 or $20 a bag.
Navarro referred to the plastic bags as "Marketing 101 for the drug dealers." Many of them have symbols, allowing drug users to ask for "Superman" or "Blue Dolphin" instead of the drug itself, he said.
Prior to the final vote, Ald. Walter Burnett (27th) expressed concern about arresting innocent people. He noted that extra buttons that come with suits, shirts and blouses -- and jewelry that's been repaired -- come in similar plastic bags.
Burnett was reassured by language that states "one reasonably should know that such items will be or are being used" to package, transfer, deliver or store a controlled substance. Violators would be punished by a $1,500 fine.
Health Committee Chairman Ed Smith (28th) said the ban is part of a desperate effort to stop what he called "the most destructive force" in Chicago neighborhoods.
"We need to use every measure that we possibly can to stop it because it is destroying our kids," he said.
"Every effort" except the politically risky move of addressing the issue head on. But, the appearance of "doing something" while actually doing nothing at all is Good Enough for Government Work.
Charon
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That's insane.
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These are tiny, little itty bitty bags used for nothing then selling rocks with. Were not talking "baggies" from the food store. Inner city gas stations sell them knowing they only have one use. That and "roses", which is a little bitty plastic tube, with a little fabric rose flower in it, that the junkies use to smoke rocks out of. Supposedly the maker markets them as decorative but everyone knows they only have one use.
Banning the crap will have no impact. The gangs will just adjust and find somthing else.
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I live here in Chicago and use to be a drug user, I can tell you that almost all heroin or crack sold here do come in these small self seal baggies that have symbols on them that different gangs use to identify there brand, like blue devils, green aliens, batman and so on. I always wondered where they got them and what could possible be a legal use for them, but the only thing banning the baggies will do is make it harder the user to know what brand of drug he's getting, it wont stop or prevent the sale because they usually also come wrapped in tin foil then put in the small baggy.
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That and "roses", which is a little bitty plastic tube, with a little fabric rose flower in it, that the junkies use to smoke rocks out of. Supposedly the maker markets them as decorative but everyone knows they only have one use.
They have banned the sale of those here in Chicago already, but you can still find stores that sell them.
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I use them to separate beads. Also use them to separate sewing needles between sizes.
Tiny baggies are good for more than just drugs.
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or like the rest of the country they will all just start using sandwich baggies.
oh noes the drugs are ruining everyones lives!!!!111one!1
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I use them to separate beads. Also use them to separate sewing needles between sizes.
Tiny baggies are good for more than just drugs.
I think these might be different then you use, I think they're too small to hold more then maybe 2 beads, there usually about 1in by 1in, and they have symbols on them. They usually sell these at head shops.
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I think these might be different then you use, I think they're too small to hold more then maybe 2 beads, there usually about 1in by 1in, and they have symbols on them. They usually sell these at head shops.
Yep, I think those are about the same size. I think mine are probably 1X2 inches.
Most of the beads I keep sorted by larger categories, but I use the tiny baggies to set aside beads when I have a particular bookmark in mind for them. Google "book thong." I make those, and often set aside just a few beads.
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Health Committee Chairman Ed Smith (28th) said the ban is part of a desperate effort to stop what he called "the most destructive force" in Chicago neighborhoods.
Just as an outsider`s point of view I would say that the most destructive force in Chicago would be the morons who came up with such an idiotic idea and tried to pass it off as viable.
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Just as an outsider`s point of view I would say that the most destructive force in Chicago would be the morons who came up with such an idiotic idea and tried to pass it off as viable.
I think it can't hurt, gives the cops another thing to charge people dealing and using with, like I said just about every dealer in Chicago uses them, I'd say atleast 90%.
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im sorry but this is a political stunt designed to look like they are doing something. It will have zero effect on drug use if anything it will just be another charge to tack on when somebody gets caught. On the west coast if you go to an area that heroin or crack use is heavy you will see balloons littering the street cause that is what it is packaged in there. So instead of getting to the root of the problem i.e. our drug policies have failed and will continue to do so until we truly address the problem, then we will continue to have stupid sound bites like this come out of politicians mouths.
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I think it can't hurt, gives the cops another thing to charge people dealing and using with, like I said just about every dealer in Chicago uses them, I'd say atleast 90%.
One day the earth will be inherited by the naive......................an d quickly lost.
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The quotes says that it will be a "tool" to "go after" grocery stores, health food stores and other businesses. The item being sold is not illegal, yet they are making possession of it illegal just because drug dealers use it.
By that same logic, would Chicago be justified in banning every other item or service that drug dealers use? Maybe ban cell phones if it can be proven that drug dealers use them to help make sales.
Think about it. The people who helped pass this law are amazing. And the part..."one reasonably should know that such items will be or are being used" is pretty scary to me.
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The quotes says that it will be a "tool" to "go after" grocery stores, health food stores and other businesses. The item being sold is not illegal, yet they are making possession of it illegal just because drug dealers use it.
One additional purpose might be to generate extra revenue. I'm sure there will be some hefty fines involved.
One of the main motivations when I moved out of the city were the "hidden taxes." The excessive real taxes, and city stickers and the pass along taxes you paid eating in a restaurant were bad enough. But, Chicago made it real easy to break the law and pay the fine. For example, a street may have parking regulations (time of day, etc.) yet not have them clearly posted on every block of a street.
There was always someone reaching into your pocket.
Charon
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oh yeah, that will stop the drug trade, why don't they just make the drugs illegal,........oh wait, they already did that. :O
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One additional purpose might be to generate extra revenue. I'm sure there will be some hefty fines involved.
One of the main motivations when I moved out of the city were the "hidden taxes." The excessive real taxes, and city stickers and the pass along taxes you paid eating in a restaurant were bad enough. But, Chicago made it real easy to break the law and pay the fine. For example, a street may have parking regulations (time of day, etc.) yet not have them clearly posted on every block of a street.
There was always someone reaching into your pocket.
Charon
It just got worst, they just raised the sales tax another percent in Cook county, so they now have the highest in the country. I think it's at 10.5% now.
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Quick, dont go after the people moving it into our country by the pounds, stop the little baggies people use to push it!
Afterall, once it fails to stop the drug from being sold, we can always push further to further invade peoples privacy to have them PROVE there innocence.
Today the plastic baggie, tomorrow your anus and other body cavitys!
daaahahahaaaaaaaaaa...
:|
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It just got worst, they just raised the sales tax another percent in Cook county, so they now have the highest in the country. I think it's at 10.5% now.
No poop. I live about 3 blocks from lake county. The good news, It's easy to shop in Lake County. The Bad news, I still live in Crook County. Fortunately, my community if one that is making a noise about seceding from the county. I may beat them to the punch if I can this year, and if I can make it work set up shop across the state line in Wisconsin or Indiana. One can dream. That flipping housing surplus is throwing a wrench into the works though. I don't like to think about keeping a house clean and ready to sell for 9 straight months until an offer comes.
[edit: LOL, instead of the **** the new BBS inserts a G rated substitution!]
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I think it can't hurt, gives the cops another thing to charge people dealing and using with, like I said just about every dealer in Chicago uses them, I'd say atleast 90%.
I dont see us arresting anyone for a little baggie. What would we call it, "unlawful possesion of baggie"? :lol We still stack up enough bodies in this town to keep busy and these little baggies are the farthest thing from our minds.
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I dont see us arresting anyone for a little baggie. What would we call it, "unlawful possesion of baggie"? :lol We still stack up enough bodies in this town to keep busy and these little baggies are the farthest thing from our minds.
No I don't see them arresting anybody for just having them, but when you arrest a dealer or user and they have them, then charge them with it. The baggies are how each block identifies their drug, it's almost like a promotional tool they use, user's find out which brand is good and word spreads. I do agree though that it won't prevent any use to outlaw them, but like I said it's an additional charge to throw on.
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Drug dealers drive Escalades, wear Nike’s, carry Glocks and wear red bandanas; if we ban all of those things too maybe the drug dealers will go away…
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One additional purpose might be to generate extra revenue. I'm sure there will be some hefty fines involved.
Charon
LOL You mean you too have figured ut that is what the MAIN reason for many ordnances both old and new are really for?
They tell us its for safety. When really its about finding new ways of boosting revenue.
Roadside extortio...I mean seatbelt and inspection checks.
Cell phone while driving bans
0 tolerence crackdown drives on drivers.
It aint about safety.
They dupe the cops and public into thinking thats what its about.
Its really abuut whats its always about.
MONEY and how they can get more of it from you.
Banning baggies is going to help stop crack use like thinking that baning tissue will stop sneezing
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They shouldn't ban the sale of the baggies. They should use that little gift of identification to their own advantage instead.
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The cops are the last ones they fool.
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Dealers will find something new. Always do.
Texasmom said thong... hehe
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Dealers will find something new. Always do.
They won`t have to find anything new. They will continue to use the baggies as always.
What has been done by this idiotic move is to invent a new lucrative and profitable way to make money by violating a ban. We seem to be getting to expert level on creating new contraband businesses. Ridiculous.
Something else such stupidity does is open up doors for future extortion and twisting.
Every rare coin collector/dealer, every rare stamp collector/dealer, every gem collector/dealer etc. in Chicago has now became eligible to be charged under this stupidity if desired or the opportunity arises.
Drug dealers are not worried about the fact that they are commiting a felony, in the case of crack/meth sales. I don`t think the big baggy crackdown is going to be much concern.
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Drug dealers are not worried about the fact that they are commiting a felony, in the case of crack/meth sales. I don`t think the big baggy crackdown is going to be much concern.
Thats right.
Because baggies don't do drugs.
People do.
;)
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Like I said before...
Let's just ban all the items that drug dealers use. That makes sense.
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This will go just like the "talking on the cell phone while driving ban" and the "obstructing emergency vehicles" law. It will be enforced for a week then forgotten. Used only when the cops need that "something extra" for the ticket." In Chicago cops won't pull you over for erratic driving until you actually hit something.
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In Chicago cops won't pull you over for erratic driving until you actually hit something.
if they haven't actually hit something, what is the problem?
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if they haven't actually hit something, what is the problem?
Sorry, let me clarify.
i.e. driving on the wrong side of the road, weaving, blowing stop signs/ stop lights, speeding (more then 10 mph over the limit.)
Not all cops let this slide but a lot do, to the point that when I turned 21 several years ago my neighbor, who is a cop, told me to always stay in the city if I went out to the bars. The Chicago police have a rep of being far more lenient than suburban police. (btw I let the "EL" do the driving for me.)
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Sorry, let me clarify.
i.e. driving on the wrong side of the road, weaving, blowing stop signs/ stop lights, speeding (more then 10 mph over the limit.)
sorry let me clarify, not stopping for stop signs, red lights and speeding are against specific laws, they are not erratic driving. Driving on the wrong side of the road would be reckless driving and "weaving" is vague and arbitury.
Two fast for conditions is a catch all.
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Sorry, let me clarify.
i.e. driving on the wrong side of the road, weaving, blowing stop signs/ stop lights, speeding (more then 10 mph over the limit.)
Not all cops let this slide but a lot do, to the point that when I turned 21 several years ago my neighbor, who is a cop, told me to always stay in the city if I went out to the bars. The Chicago police have a rep of being far more lenient than suburban police. (btw I let the "EL" do the driving for me.)
This is very true, I've had city cops find pot on me or friends(this was years ago when I smoked) and the cops would just give it back, a couple times they would even comment on how good it smelled, one time I had a cop tell me that he didn't care about crap like that, that he'd rather be out busting people for worst crimes then spend time doing paper work on little things like pot. They will even let you drive off if you don't have a license.
Edit: I'm referring to Chicago cops
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This is very true, I've had city cops find pot on me or friends(this was years ago when I smoked) and the cops would just give it back, a couple times they would even comment on how good it smelled, one time I had a cop tell me that he didn't care about crap like that, that he'd rather be out busting people for worst crimes then spend time doing paper work on little things like pot. They will even let you drive off if you don't have a license.
Edit: I'm referring to Chicago cops
A lot depends on attitude. Generally we have so much real crime to worry about we are lenient with working people who mess up a bit. We have a lot of gangs and a lot of violence here so it puts things in persective.
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A lot depends on attitude. Generally we have so much real crime to worry about we are lenient with working people who mess up a bit. We have a lot of gangs and a lot of violence here so it puts things in persective.
Oh definitely, if you lie to the cops they get really mad, so I always found as long as your up front with them about everything, and I mean everything, like if you have no license or you have pot, they tend to cut you a break.
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A lot of this is also because of the way the "top cops" have decided to deal with crime. Focusing their resources on drug dealers, murders... the "higher end" crimes.
Unfortunately I can't find the article from a few years back, comparing Chicago with New York and the deference in the way the Police departments fought crime. New York went after the "petty crimes", broken tail lights, scofflaws, jay walkers... in the hopes of catching the drug dealers, murderers, rapist, etc. with the mindset that if these people have complete disregard for the law they will probably not comply with the little laws either. Whereas in Chicago the beat cops are out looking specifically for these same people, trying to catch them in the act, thus incurring a larger sentence.
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A few years back at work ( I'm a medic) we had a heroin O.D. run with a 19 year old female found unconscious not breathing in the driver seat of a suv with the engine running. We brought her back and gave her a stern talking to. Normally the beat cop would just do a report without any sort of ticket issued or any other consequences, but this time the beat cop had had enough and decided to cite her with driving under the influence of a controlled substance. Well about a year later we went to court to testify what we had witnessed and had done for her. She decided to plead guilty and was given community service and rehab. I'll tell you what, I didn't even recognize her, she had gained 15 healthy pounds during that year, her complexion had cleared up and she didn't look like a deer in the headlights anymore. After her case was over she caught us (my partner, the cop and myself) out in the hall. She thanked us and let us know she already started rehab with the help of her family. She swore to us that she would never get involved with drugs again was trying to set up her community service so she could speak at some schools. I believed her, still do.
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A lot of this is also because of the way the "top cops" have decided to deal with crime. Focusing their resources on drug dealers, murders... the "higher end" crimes.
Unfortunately I can't find the article from a few years back, comparing Chicago with New York and the deference in the way the Police departments fought crime. New York went after the "petty crimes", broken tail lights, scofflaws, jay walkers... in the hopes of catching the drug dealers, murderers, rapist, etc. with the mindset that if these people have complete disregard for the law they will probably not comply with the little laws either. Whereas in Chicago the beat cops are out looking specifically for these same people, trying to catch them in the act, thus incurring a larger sentence.
The "top cops" have nothing to do with it. If anything they "are" the problem with their statistics driven crusades. Those of us on the street mostly cant stand them.
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Think i may open up my own online business selling little plastic bags to Chicago. :rock
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The Chicago police have a rep of being far more lenient than suburban police.
Im guessing but.
This is probably true in alot of big city areas for a couple of reasons.
For one if they arrested everyoe who was slightly over the alcohol limit. There would be nobody to patrol the streets
Larger cities tend to have larger crime issues. Robbery,Gang activity etc.
In short they have more important things to worry about.
whereas Smaller towns and suburbs tend to have much less going on.
And in some cases. so much less the cops get bored and will look to pick up on any little thing.
Example.
When I was a about 15 there was a wooded area we called "The brook" we used to hang out at. Now at that time the town I lived in wasnt always the nicest place to live. There was alot of crime.
Anyway. We would hang out at one of the few wooded areas in the town build a fire, and drink beer by the quart.Or case. or Keg. Whatever we could get our hands on.
Cops stopped by a couple of times and we didnt even bother running. The cops asked us our names and said "Just keep the fire low and dont cause any problems." A couple of days later we ran into one of the cops we recognised as being one of the ones we saw a few nights before. One of my busddies asked him why they didnt arrest us or take our beer"
He said. "We have more important things to worry about. Besides. This way we at least know where you are and where to find you. If we arrested you. You would just find someplace else to go. Just keep the fire down and dont do anything stupid on the way home."
Never really had a problem witht he cops there. They would pop in now and again. and as long as we didnt try to run. they just took our names, and ocasionally our beer. And left telling us to lower the fire.
Fast forward 3 years to a different town. Small town, not alot going on.
Myself and 5 other people were hanging out in a different set of woods with a single 6 pack.All of legal drinking age. No fire, and not making any noise. Just hanging out, enjoying nature and having a beer
Next thing we know about 15 cops surround us like we were the frikken Dillanger gang. On the ground, frisked, Cuffed and arrested and charged for drinking in public.
6 people of legal age. 1 beer each. Talk about culture shock
But again this was a small town with not alot going on.
something like that was a "big" night for them.
that and the time they arrested some guy for taking a leak behind a tree at 3 AM.
cost the poor guy $200.
We used to call them the "Keystone Cops" because of some of the rediculous things they did.
Such as chasing a teen around town with 4 cop cars and the kid on foot because they saw him comming out of a liquor store with a bag in his hand.
I witnessed that one first hand from my friends front porch as the teen was cutting through yards going back and forth and the 4 cars trying to cut him off.
Not one bothered getting out of the car. It was one of the more comical things I've ever witnessed. It went on for about 20 minutes
They never did catch him.
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Two fast for conditions is a catch all.
Always wondered about this
I can "get" driving too fast for conditions.
Why dont we ever see people getting tickets for driving too slow?
Its been my experience that too slow drivers are every bit as hazardous as the ones driving too fast.
Not to mention the traffic backups they needlessly cause
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A lot of this is also because of the way the "top cops" have decided to deal with crime. Focusing their resources on drug dealers, murders... the "higher end" crimes.
Unfortunately I can't find the article from a few years back, comparing Chicago with New York and the deference in the way the Police departments fought crime. New York went after the "petty crimes", broken tail lights, scofflaws, jay walkers... in the hopes of catching the drug dealers, murderers, rapist, etc. with the mindset that if these people have complete disregard for the law they will probably not comply with the little laws either. Whereas in Chicago the beat cops are out looking specifically for these same people, trying to catch them in the act, thus incurring a larger sentence.
So which method worked better?
Obviously you cant go by arrest numbers alone as by default NY would have the higher arrest count because of going after every little thing.
Which group arrrested the more "hard core criminals"? (for lack of a better term)
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So which method worked better?
Obviously you cant go by arrest numbers alone as by default NY would have the higher arrest count because of going after every little thing.
Which group arrrested the more "hard core criminals"? (for lack of a better term)
This is why I'm ticked, I can't find the article now, it was easily 3 or 4 years ago, maybe more. The New York philosophy was from when Rudy was still Mayor. I don't remember if the article even had the numbers on hard core criminals caught or convictions.
It makes me wonder if it only made it harder on the cops because now the criminal element has had to clean itself up and is harder to spot in the crowd or maybe it did stop some crime. I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if it had no effect at all, "bad people will do bad things" no matter what environment you put them in.
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Take a good look at prices of homes and property in NYNY and Chicago both before and after and you see the reason why crime is down. That and the fact most of the high rise housing projects have been torn down. I worked them all and they were all crime factories. Cabrini, the Horners, Ablas, Taylor homes, Stateway, Rockwell...ect
So now they are down, many of the criminals cant afford to live here anymore, And, since jail populations are way up many arent on the street to do criminal watermelon anymore. But none of those reasons are sexy enough for Politicians both in and out of uniform so they make up programs, deem themselves responsible for the drop in crime, "because they are so smart".
What they dont tell you is that our conviction rate for homicide is so bad, most of all in gang-relateds, that its an ugly and dark secret.
So what would you rather have? 600 bodies with a 70% closure rate , or 500 with a 30% one?
Rudy did nothing special. No doubt it was the rank and file who made NYNY a better place. And since when did the welfare of the property of an honest citizen become a program?
You all really have to be careful about believing this newspaper crap and all the statistics that are flung out at you regarding crime. This entire statistics charade is phony anyways, or a lot of it is. Always be suspect of the numbers game. We've gotten caught up in it as much as NY has and I doubt we've done anything different..
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Take a good look at prices of homes and property in NYNY and Chicago both before and after and you see the reason why crime is down. That and the fact most of the high rise housing projects have been torn down. I worked them all and they were all crime factories. Cabrini, the Horners, Ablas, Taylor homes, Stateway, Rockwell...ect
So now they are down, many of the criminals cant afford to live here anymore, And, since jail populations are way up many arent on the street to do criminal watermelon anymore. But none of those reasons are sexy enough for Politicians both in and out of uniform so they make up programs, deem themselves responsible for the drop in crime, "because they are so smart".
What they dont tell you is that our conviction rate for homicide is so bad, most of all in gang-relateds, that its an ugly and dark secret. But they dont tell you that do they?
So what would you rather have? 600 bodies with a 70% closure rate , or 500 with a 30% one?
Rudy did nothing special. No doubt it was the rank and file who made NYNY a better place. And since when did the welfare of the property of an honest citizen become a program?
You all really have to be careful about believing this newspaper crap and all the statistics that are flung out at you regarding crime. There is nothing sadder then when I go to work and hear 40 people say the exact same thing based on the same newpaper headline theyv all read that morning. As if its Gospel? This entire statistics charade is phony anyways, or a lot of it is. Always be suspect of the numbers game. We've gotten caught up in it as much as NY has and I doubt we've done anything different..
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Many years ago when I had first moved here I was surprised at how many odd laws were on the books in Chicago. I think it's still a misdemeanor to spit on the sidewalk. Over the years I got more familiar with the town and began to understand to a degree why this was so.
It's a matter of density. Put a million or so people in the same town and with human ingenuity being what it is, people find all sorts of ways to annoy/endanger/inconvenience their neighbors. Although I'm still confused as to why I can't drive my pick-up on L.S.D.
But Chicago seems to enjoy it's laws, not actually obeying them, but having the ability to invoke them when the situation merits.
The baggie ordinance is another one of these statutes. It's simply another ruse to justify further searches or to magnify a collateral charge. The recent cell phone ban was yet another. Although in the case of hands free driving I can see a benefit, I don't see much enforcement. I never tested the city's resolve on the Fois Gras prohibition but I suspect it was also modestly enforced.
What N.Y.C. did was take an old school approach to municipal policing. They put more bodies on the street, fewer in "task groups" and aggressively enforced quality of life issues. Jaywalking, littering, noise and traffic violations were given higher priority. The logic being that most serious offenders can't be bothered to obey even the most basic rules. Beside they obvious dividends that come with more visible and immediate law enforcement they also found hundreds of goofs that had been able to evade the "specialists". Now Disney's in Time Square.
I doubt Chicago would go for that. With the residency rules and the culture of the C.P.D. I seriously doubt this will be the last silly statute to hit the books, and I doubt it will be the most absurd.
Gentrification has done a lot to dissipate the street crime throughout the city, it's just numbers. Hopefully the recent wave of reclaimed neighborhoods won't fall victim to any looming real estate bust and the trend continues. But it won't be because we forced a change in the way ready rock is packaged.