Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FrodeMk3 on March 09, 2008, 08:15:23 PM
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HTC and crew;
Due to an ongoing argument in another thread, plus the fact that it seeems to be one of the hottest points' of contention that splits' the community, would it be possible to do a voting poll like the one we did for the next aircraft in the game?
The only reason I ask, is that if we could throw out a pie-chart type of demographic that shows' the breakdown in the playerbase, It might be a handy tool for future developement. It might also help to heal the current rift in the community.
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In my opinion, There is no "current" rift. The rift is mostly in the head of a few extremists on both parts of the spectrum.
First, most players are not furballers or toolshedders - most of them are both at times, always changing between playing modes at their leisure. They are just not as vocal as us BBS whiners or that extremely annoying lil Bonapartes on countrychannel.
Second, "current" implies that a massive change has happened recently. While this game might be much different from old AW days with a tight knit small community, and still some different from AHI back in 2000, I can clearly say: Not much has changed in the last 3 years; since I am playing regularly.
I think many claims of "it's getting worse every day" are just romantic idealisations, your (and my!) own memory sometimes fools you. I mean, I even read this from guys playing for only 1 year :D
Read some old threads. Complaints about toolshedding, Ho's, degrading skill levels are as old as this BBS ...
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I guess I'm seeing a bigger problem, Lusche. Or maybe I'm just curious; either way, it'd make an interesting project.
Many have complained of gameplay going downhill for some time. On both sides' of the aisle. I believe it's time to address the problem, rather than ignore it.
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How many old threads are there about formations of buffs suiciding into the FH/CVs/TT VHs? ;)
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Pretty much agree with Luche, also a poll on the BBS won't tell you much due to most of the players never even come here.
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I'm just afraid that a poll won't help much. How do you sort those that confuse degradation (sp?) of a game from those just getting tired of it (which ineveitably happens at some point to all of us).
(Also there are more than a few players who have at one point "seen the light" and consequently forgot about all their former "misdeeds" And like many proselytes, they are getting VERY zealous. Quite a few CH200 jockeys constantly unveiling lameness "LOL, buff pilot- get some ACM skills! Lame spawncamper! What a Ho-Tard! Only lamers do GV's!" have camped the spawn side by side with me a few years ago, have killed FH's in FT, VH in TT - but now they know gamplay has recently reached a new low :D)
Still just an opinion, though...
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How many old threads are there about formations of buffs suiciding into the FH/CVs/TT VHs? ;)
I remember that was a hot toipc when I finally subscribed three years ago. My first map was Donut, and the was much screaming about constant bombing & capturing FT ;)
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I don't think the game play going down hill is due to the difference between the "furballers", and the "win the war" types. This has alway been in flight sims that have both types of play, and I don't think there is any way to get it out. Even back in AW on AOL it was there, and the fights between the two raged just as hard as they do now.
No I think the game play suffers due to the "gamey" action people use to get the the end they are seeking. Whether its dive bombing B17s to flatten a town, of HOin everything in site to get a great fighter rank, its the gameyness that is bringing the game down.
Old school guys, history buff, or WWII pilot wanabies play the game more with in the "rules". Call it honor, call it "class", but with them its more along the lines "buffs level bomb over 12k, fighters didn't HO because they only had one life to give and would only throw it away in desperation. Fighter sweeps had a purpose, bombing factors slowed the enemy down. Attacks were planned, routes with way points and rondevious of multiple wings. Fighting to win, and stay alive was the biggest challenge.
Today, too many people look for ways around the "rules". Hoin because they don't know better, and don't have the time or patience to learn. Dive bombing then bailing so they can do it again real fast because the object is to destroy, not to immerse yourself. Driving CVs onto the shore so cv ack covers the base under attack. Dropping masses of troops over the field or town to draw the fire from the ack. Turning down the graphics to spot GVs, using the F3 mode to gun a buff. All those little cheap short cuts so that they can get there name in lights, or bump up there scores.
How to cure it??? Don't ask me :D Some things I could suggest would turn off some of the "kids" playing the Quake style, and cost HTC customers. To me a healthy community might be better than a bigger subscriber base, but I'm not here to make money :P
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Pretty much agree with Luche, also a poll on the BBS won't tell you much due to most of the players never even come here.
Sorry, I should have been clearer on the specifics' of the poll. It would actually be an ingame one, just like the ones' for the aircraft were done. As soon as you logged on, you would be presented with a button vote, just like the aircraft were-except one describing your prefered method of play. That way, you get a good cross-section of those actually playing, since many don't frequent the BBS.
I'm just afraid that a poll won't help much. How do you sort those that confuse degradation (sp?) of a game from those just getting tired of it (which ineveitably happens at some point to all of us).
(Also there are more than a few players who have at one point "seen the light" and consequently forgot about all their former "misdeeds" And like many proselytes, they are getting VERY zealous. Quite a few CH200 jockeys constantly unveiling lameness "LOL, buff pilot- get some ACM skills! Lame spawncamper! What a Ho-Tard! Only lamers do GV's!" have camped the spawn side by side with me a few years ago, have killed FH's in FT, VH in TT - but now they know gamplay has recently reached a new low :D)
Still just an opinion, though...
That post, though, seems' to point out the nessecity of charting gameplay demographics; It would be a simple question, pointed to best describing how you feel at the moment of the poll.
I don't think the game play going down hill is due to the difference between the "furballers", and the "win the war" types. This has alway been in flight sims that have both types of play, and I don't think there is any way to get it out. Even back in AW on AOL it was there, and the fights between the two raged just as hard as they do now.
No I think the game play suffers due to the "gamey" action people use to get the the end they are seeking. Whether its dive bombing B17s to flatten a town, of HOin everything in site to get a great fighter rank, its the gameyness that is bringing the game down.
Old school guys, history buff, or WWII pilot wanabies play the game more with in the "rules". Call it honor, call it "class", but with them its more along the lines "buffs level bomb over 12k, fighters didn't HO because they only had one life to give and would only throw it away in desperation. Fighter sweeps had a purpose, bombing factors slowed the enemy down. Attacks were planned, routes with way points and rondevious of multiple wings. Fighting to win, and stay alive was the biggest challenge.
Today, too many people look for ways around the "rules". Hoin because they don't know better, and don't have the time or patience to learn. Dive bombing then bailing so they can do it again real fast because the object is to destroy, not to immerse yourself. Driving CVs onto the shore so cv ack covers the base under attack. Dropping masses of troops over the field or town to draw the fire from the ack. Turning down the graphics to spot GVs, using the F3 mode to gun a buff. All those little cheap short cuts so that they can get there name in lights, or bump up there scores.
How to cure it??? Don't ask me :D Some things I could suggest would turn off some of the "kids" playing the Quake style, and cost HTC customers. To me a healthy community might be better than a bigger subscriber base, but I'm not here to make money :P
I see alotta the same things', but again, It's hard to work on any fixes' without knowing where you stand. For example, the "Linear Capture" system in the MA's had it's proponents, but it was eventually discontinued. In part, due to player input. However, some loved the system, and felt slighted when it was removed. I believe for this reason, a poll breaking down attitudes' on play-style would be most helpful.
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Thanks for the great ideas Fugitive, I had never even thought of running a CV on shore to cover a base, thats a good one.Just kidding. I think the poll idea will show, 25% of people like to HO, 25% of the people like to furball only, 25% of the people like to bomb, and 25% of the people like to jack there video settings up to get a miniscule amount of advantage in the game. But what the poll will really show is that 100% of the people wouldn't be subscribing if they were not having fun, which is why we play, right? There is room for everybodys "brand" of fun, why narrow it down?
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I don't think gameplay has gone down at all. Not even since the days of AW. All types have existed at all times.
In AW in 1996 there was no kill-shooter. You could damage or even kill friendlies, but if you did it to two you were PNG'd from your country for 24 hours. To compensate, the griefers would sit at the end of the runway in vehicles pinging you on take-off until you were smoking but they wouldn't kill you.
In 1996 in AW you couldn't capture bases, but you could close them down for 15-30 minutes (memory's foggy on the exact amount of time). Essentially, toolshedders killing the furball.
In AW in 1996, you could go blow up the Spit factory, removing Spitfires from the enemy arsenal. A rudimentary, player controlled ENY (you should have heard the whines on "all channel").
In AW in 1996 bombers didn't need to be calibrated. They were always calibrated at any altitude and any speed and could drop with pinpoint accuracy eliminating the possible need to Jabo heavies.
In AW in 1996 you could man a B-17 with 6 gunners, a bombardier and the pilot, a virtually impenatrable defense (otherwise known as a "death star"). And death stars were often found breaking up furballs or defending fields (yes, the guns worked while on the runway).
In AW on AOL in 1996, there were many many players as it was a free service. There simply weren't as many in a single arena, but at the same time the maps were much much smaller and there were both full and relaxed realism Europe and Pacific theaters as well as WWI and Korea plus the DA, TA and SEA arenas (at least 9 arenas total).
In AW in 1996 people would both <S> and whine just as they do today. They would HO and vulch just as they do today. They would cherry-pick and furball just as they do today.
Nothing has changed in 12 years except the game has gotten better. The community (and the percieved splintering and/or degredation thereof) is the same.
Exploitation happens only as a result of game design and HTC has done an admirable job of closing the most onerous exploits over time.
I think the community is getting closer again. I get and give more <S>'s to opposing players now than I have at any time since I started playing AH in 2001.
12 years of enjoying these flight sims and guess what... I still enjoy it. There's many here who feel the same. Sure some have left... it's inevitable, but overall the community has grown and thats a good thing for all of us (especially HT).
Lastly, I doubt HT needs to do a poll to find out how people play the game. I'm sure he has complete usage stats on the different planes and vehicles including time per sortie, time online per user, population densities, strat/field down-times, new subsriptions, average length of subsciption and many many more stats that you and I have no clue of to help in directing the development of their business. And what exactly is this poll going to ask? Has gameplay gone downhill? Not a very subjective question to base your business on considering all the other statistics at your disposal.
[Edited for content]
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I don't think a poll comprehensive enough to sufficiently answer this question could be feasible in-game... I think the nature and qualities of the players' fun are elementary enough for HTC to deduce them on their own, brainstorming it. The poll would be more adapted to adjustments on the order of fine-tuning.
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I don't think a poll comprehensive enough to sufficiently answer this question could be feasible in-game... I think the nature and qualities of the players' fun are elementary enough for HTC to deduce them on their own, brainstorming it. The poll would be more adapted to adjustments on the order of fine-tuning.
I would have to agree with this and other points made in the posts here. Personally, I like to mix it up, but I dont like a huge furball. I enjoy a capture effort, but hate being part of a horde. Could a poll be that specific? I doubt the majority of players want to do just one thing all the time and I imagine that I am pretty average in my gameplay.
BTW Frode....I was born in Bakersfield (isn't that where you are? or am I misremembering?)
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In my opinion, There is no "current" rift. The rift is mostly in the head of a few extremists on both parts of the spectrum.
First, most players are not furballers or toolshedders - most of them are both at times, always changing between playing modes at their leisure. They are just not as vocal as us BBS whiners or that extremely annoying lil Bonapartes on countrychannel.
I'm one that does play the whole spectrum at my leisure, which is (in and of itself) the source of fun here. It hasn't changed, really. Occasionally I find it refreshing to step away for awhile, come back, and find that I'm having an absolute blast. I also find it satisfying to help others (friend or foe) have fun with it. Simple <S>'s, offer a little help here & there, laugh about how efficiently Lusche kicked my ass... (a little humility goes a long way.)
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The scale of things has certainly changed, and the way bombers and vehicles are used now is certainly different, but I don't know that the different groups get along any better or worse. I think more than anything, it's that the fringe groups are just a lot larger and more visible than they were. All that aside, the best way to get an accurate depiction of who does what is not going to be asking them directly, so I'm not sure a poll would really yield good information. What a vet might consider milkrunning, another might consider stragety, so who do you believe? Neither, you watch them both and decide for yourself. ;)
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The only reason I ask, is that if we could throw out a pie-chart type of demographic that shows' the breakdown in the playerbase, It might be a handy tool for future developement. It might also help to heal the current rift in the community.
Why? It is actually good for the game. Its like asking for only 1 country so that people would stop fighting and arguing about rooks, bish, knits, and queens :lol
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In my opinion, There is no "current" rift. The rift is mostly in the head of a few extremists on both parts of the spectrum.
First, most players are not furballers or toolshedders - most of them are both at times, always changing between playing modes at their leisure. They are just not as vocal as us BBS whiners or that extremely annoying lil Bonapartes on countrychannel.
Second, "current" implies that a massive change has happened recently. While this game might be much different from old AW days with a tight knit small community, and still some different from AHI back in 2000, I can clearly say: Not much has changed in the last 3 years; since I am playing regularly.
I think many claims of "it's getting worse every day" are just romantic idealisations, your (and my!) own memory sometimes fools you. I mean, I even read this from guys playing for only 1 year :D
Read some old threads. Complaints about toolshedding, Ho's, degrading skill levels are as old as this BBS ...
Spot on again Lusche...
Personally I fly Fighters, GVs Buffs, PT boats or AAA guns depending on whatever I want to do at that moment. I play this game for fun and fun is pretty much whatever strikes my fancy at that moment... All are fun when you are having success!
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I do not see a "Rift" so to speak, but I certainly see some differences in opinion as to what is possible or acceptable MA behavior. I really could care less how folks play, I just adjust my tactics to the situation at hand. It actually makes it more fun doing it that way, as you are not in a rut of doing the same old boring thing every time you log in. I guess I am a good example of a average player in my interests, I just do whatever needs to be done. Supply runs, up a fighter, attack sortie, GV sortie, field gun, ship gun, etc. It keeps it fresh! :aok
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aye, I was discussing how the game has changed with someone not to long ago. Though everyone has their thoughts on this, I just figured because we now have more people, we have more people at the extremes of every issue. There are also more people in-between, which is good. I never thought that issues ever reached the "rift" point. We've been fighting on these boards for a long time. Polls are tough, it brings to mind something HT once said, something like "we try to give players what they want, but not what they ask for." This is not word for word, and I would be sorry if I got it wrong, but the meaning would be that players often have in mind what they want out of the game. HT wants the players to be happy, but sometimes what players ask for will not accomplish the ultimate goal or may hurt the progress. I think most want the same things, good meaninfull fights/combat, challenges, and a place to get away and hang out with friends.
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As near as I can tell, the guys i fly with are having fun, and if we can't find any fun, we'll try and make some. Bout all we can do under the circumstances.
And lets face it, BS'ing with the guys on Vox, and doing dumb stuff is most of the fun anyway :)
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fighters didn't HO because they only had one life to give and would only throw it away in desperation.
...this is a total myth .....I have read in book, after book, after book, of pilots refering to 'taking a head on pass'. Allies did it....Germans did it ...everyone did it. Only in virtual "Worlds" is it an problem. I the "Real" world you killed anyway you could. So please stop this stupid no head on pass stuff....it's nothing but crap...read more first hand accounts and you will see I am correct.
Helm ....out
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problem is the people on the extreme end of the scale that "suffer" more that the guys in the middle. These guys seem to think the other end of the scale is ruining there game, and vice verser...
if there was a scale of -10 (furballer) to + 10 (toolsheder/war player) id stick myself at a 2. I prefer simulated war/ land grab, but im perfectly fine furballing (at least trying) for hours too. and as Lusche said, people in the middle dont care or dont speak up about it, because once one battle ends, they create another one, which could turn into a furball, or could turn into a base capture...
guys at -10 or +10 are always going to be whining about something. (bodhi "fun police" thread is a classic example of a few kids throwing there toys out of the pram)
Personally id put the game at maybe -2... strat system that doesnt really "do" anything big, poor HQ target and 163s are too cheap. But at least its right in the middle roughly.
a little chart.
war winners
10, Grillman (knits Army group A leader :noid)
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2, Overlag
1
0
-1
-2
-3
-4
-5
-6
-7
-8
-9
-10 Bodhi, Hubs, Slapshot, Laz,
furballers
add ya names in where u think you go ;)
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a little chart.
war winners
10, Grillman (knits Army group A leader :noid)
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2, Overlag
1
0
-1
-2
-3
-4
-5
-6
-7
-8
-9
-10 Bodhi, Hubs, Slapshot, Laz,
furballers
add ya names in where u think you go ;)
You sir are evil. : :devil
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You sir are evil. : :devil
yeah but its true mostly? ;) lol
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I'm just afraid that a poll won't help much. How do you sort those that confuse degradation (sp?) of a game from those just getting tired of it (which ineveitably happens at some point to all of us).
(Also there are more than a few players who have at one point "seen the light" and consequently forgot about all their former "misdeeds" And like many proselytes, they are getting VERY zealous. Quite a few CH200 jockeys constantly unveiling lameness "LOL, buff pilot- get some ACM skills! Lame spawncamper! What a Ho-Tard! Only lamers do GV's!" have camped the spawn side by side with me a few years ago, have killed FH's in FT, VH in TT - but now they know gamplay has recently reached a new low :D)
Still just an opinion, though...
Well stated. :salute
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...this is a total myth .....I have read in book, after book, after book, of pilots refering to 'taking a head on pass'. Allies did it....Germans did it ...everyone did it. Only in virtual "Worlds" is it an problem. I the "Real" world you killed anyway you could. So please stop this stupid no head on pass stuff....it's nothing but crap...read more first hand accounts and you will see I am correct.
Helm ....out
Just my two cents, but helm is right. I remember reading that up until the G-H models were widely available, a head-on pass was the prefered method used by german pilots to take down B17s since they didn't have guns in the nose.
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Personally I think the game is fine as it is. It offers the flexibility of play to suit my changing mood, the comradery of squad ops, the fun and chaos of furballing, and the goal completion fun of base captures. Leave it alone, it aint broken don't fix it.
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I remember that was a hot toipc when I finally subscribed three years ago. My first map was Donut, and the was much screaming about constant bombing & capturing FT ;)
I miss Donut. Its always the whiners who make us lose all the fun stuff..... Man and the only prolbem i see is just stupid maps we got now. I know what to expect when i logg in. All i really look foward too when it comes to a good map is the Tank Town Map.... Plus the way to fix FT on Donut is to make them incapturable. Plus on my opinion, no1 even would try to bomb them. Only ignorant sweethearts. Sad though... Donut was a good map, thats my only true rant with the game.
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Kids being allowed in the game is why the game goes downhill from time to time. With their clever little warps, o wait, no thats lag,their silly "how do I fly, how do I drop bombs, and dropping troops from 10k over the field, selves! Dive bombing lancs, spit and lala flying, squeaking little can't spell acm rug rats! :mad: Sell them the game on disc and get them out of here!
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<<<<N00B and proud of it :rock
thats why im still havin fun,,,, :D
my advice. hit yourself over the head really farkin hard,, forget everything you know about the game, and start again..... :salute
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When I first subscribed to the game a few years ago, the advertisment that caught my eye was Combat Tour. Take part in Historical Battles it said, start as a cadet and work your way through the ranks, flying as a team. And when I get here I find a free for all where 25% know whats going on and 75% haven't got a clue. But I stuck around because it was only going to be 2 weeks. Well that has become a big joke. It's been 2 YEARS.
Yes sometimes I do take the game to heart too much, but I got into this to win and play the game with adults. Not to fly in a furball for no other reason but to shot someone down. I can do that on my kids PS2, and it won't cost me 15 bucks a month. :salute