Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: the_hegemon on February 27, 2001, 10:18:00 PM
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while i'm climbing to 34k to intercept a buff raid on our(Rook) HQ, I just thought I'd vent here:
AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGG GGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Buffs are way overmodeled (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
darkstar
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Buffs are not overmodelled...u are undermadelled hah! =P. Hava good one.
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XNachoX
(http://Http://members.aol.com/zipdog97/HanksP47.jpg)
NIGHTHAWKS "WE BAD"
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[This message has been edited by XNachoX (edited 02-27-2001).]
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i think buffs need a litle moe armour, thats my opinoin though, and i dont think ther over modeled, the guys in thoughs buffs probly spent a half hour to get up there to ya know (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/jato.JPG)
[This message has been edited by jato757 (edited 02-27-2001).]
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ya a 109 took the left wing off my b-17 earler, i asked him how many flashes he saw (hits)
his answer
3
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This is a lame thread! The buffs were at 30K and were escorted by 5 P51D's and 10 P47D's went ahead. The main group of buffs were around 10 in number. The ASSASSIANS came up with tons of ROOKS. All Buffs were killed and fighters were dispached by ROOKS! They did a bit of damage and YES some of you WHINERS where killed! But the Rooks had there way with the attack force and fun was had by most. Too bad you Newbie whiners didn't .. Don't vent! You are UNDERMODELED!
Thunder
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i had fun, but still kinda dweeby to go above 27k imo
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I like it like this and I think we'll do more of it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I saw some really nice flying tonight and got some tags on some real killers. Out of five sorties only Cave got me (Mig nicked me later), and that before the fun started. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'll get you old man! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) <S>
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With all due respect, why is it dweeby to go above 27k?
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Buffs don't need more armor. A 4 engined heavy bomber needed about 20 rounds of 20mm to go down or 3-5 shells of 30mm. Now, the 109 might have used 30mm, I do it my self when I buff hunt and it packs a big punch.
And it does require about 20 hits by a 20mm + 13mm rounds to down a buff, sometimes less if you hit it all at about the same place.
And no, it's not dweeby to go above 27k, buffs sometimes did it and sometimes they didn't.
What is wrong with buffs are the guns, way overmodelled, WB way was better.
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/jg5wilbus.gif)
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Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson
III/JG5 "EisMeer"
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The bombers are not overmodeled, the pilots are simply incapable. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I frequently fly with the B17, but I don't need to fly above of the 20K, even, the fun is own in the fly to height of 10/15K.(more targets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
I have 96 Kill,36 dead,in 139 sorties with the B17 and almost the Kills are made to 10K of altitude. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
I don't understand like they could enjoy those that they lose so much time for go to 30/35K.
Why ?, For have the consequence then of make little damage? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
This is really an of the stupid things that I see make in this game. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I hope in the new version HT put nice clouds to 20/25K, so that force these guys to fly to decent altitudes.
The reasoning also is worth for those pilots ( or flying tulips ?) that use fighters to 25/30K.
This is not the war where it is necessary survive, it is a game ( a nice game), if they shoot down you, you are in flight after 10 seconds. ( you owe simply press the correct button (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
Please, fly for enjoy and not for points, so much also if you come first, you don't win any prize. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
My 2 cents.
Cheers!
Maxo
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When you are flown, there is an only certainty:
In a way or in the other, to earth you will return.
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Where the alleged "Dweebery" in going above 27k (who decided on that altitude anyway...hmmm) is mainly due to the fact that it takes a huge time commitment to get a group of heavy buffs up to 35k, and it takes quite a while for any defending fighters to get that high also, especially if you dont fly one of the top rated climbers.
So what you end up with is a large buff force, so high that there is NO WAY for a defending force to gain enough altitude to engage them before they flatten a field or two, or quite possibly the HQ/City once the force is spotted on dar.
The scenario generally unfolds like this:
You see some NME on DAR heading for your Base or HQ.
You immediately take off with 5 of your best buds to intercept but soon realize that you cannot possibly gain enough altitude to catch the buffs.
They pork the target with impunity from 35k with accuracy that we cant even get with laser guided bombs today.
They egress, and while you may get lucky enough to catch a stragler or two, you do so at the cost of not trying to protect the base they just porked.
Same situation with HQ, especially of the NME has managed to reduce your DAR coverage near HQ by taking bases. Buff come in, take out CIty and HQ, leaving you with a game thats about 90% less fun to play becaues you cant find the NME worth a crap with no sector markers.
While HT has indicated that making the Bombing more realistic would make bombing no fun, and I think for the most part they are right, I still feel that there should be a small divergence spec in the drops that is barley noticable at 5k, nothing to speak of at 10k, but makes 30k+ a little less perfect. Perhaps a 1' per 500' altitude. At 10k you only have a 20' dispersion which shouldne effect hitting a 50-100 foot hanger much, but at 30K+ you have a 60' dispersion, making those pinpoint hits a thing of the past
J1MO
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Wasn't it difficult for bombers to hit anything smaller than about about a square block in size from that alt? Maybe that would make things a little more paletable.
lazs
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Originally posted by Thunder:
This is a lame thread! The buffs were at 30K and were escorted by 5 P51D's
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BS Thunder, i was 1 of the 1st Rooks to find the buff/p51 stream, i was a p38 at 35 freekin K and all the p51s and b17s were 2
to 4k above me.
Whels
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They were at approx. 30k when I and the other Assassins intercepted and shot most of them down. (the other rooks got the rest)
What does this say? "You're not safe at *any* altitude!" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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When I found them, there were no escorts and the buffs were down to 32k +/- 2k.
The Assassins brought 30mm to the picnic, thats why someone got killed with three flashes. I saw one go down and one start to smoke profusely in the first Head On of the bomber stream. What a riot! If the DWBG ever figure out how to get them 17's in formation, were in trouble. S! to all.
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Lizard
(http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/assassins3.gif ) (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm)
EMAIL assassins@aceshighcs.com
EMAIL lizard3@aceshighcs.com
[This message has been edited by Lizard3 (edited 02-28-2001).]
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Max, keep coming at 10K ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I believe the point is that, except for the B-29 high alt missions (which were abandonded because they were totally ineffective) heavy buff missions were generally 20,000-25,000 feet or so. B-17s weren't going to 30,000+ feet to bomb Germany.
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By the time the bombers crossed over A18, many of the escorts got peeled off, and I only counted 3 P-51's. I was in a G10, and the bombers were right around 30K in alt. I don't think a single bomber managed to get to the release point though. There were several rook shadows on the formation though (i remember seeing dzd playing with some P-51 escort).
30K bombing is not wrong in one sense. I could care less if someone decided to spend all that time climbing to 30K, I can't even wait for 20K. Then again, I think that accuracy at 30K should drop, not this "hit centre plate from 30K" that we have now. Sure, alt is safety, but it also should trade off in accuracy.
<S> to all the Rooks, that was quite the opposing force that came up and decimated that bomber formation... there were a whole lot of defenders who came up to protect the HQ.
-Soda
The Assassins
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I went up with the assassins to tackle the buff raid inbound our HQ. 30mm w/ the 20mm gondolas on the wings. I was passing through 29k when I got sight of the dots of the enemy bombers. Time I was level and setup for a level headon attack I was at 32k (and that G10 was wallowing like a pig in mud (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ). I hit 2 of the 17s on the first pass and saw smoke pour from one. Wasn't really a chance to setup for a good reattack because the kite was handling for toejame that high, but we followed along in tail attacks. If there'd a few less of us up there some of the bombers might've gotten through, the gunners were overwhelmed with too many targets to shoot at (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I ended up killing a B17 with the MGs in the cowling and had 3-4 assists when I landed.
Was alot of fun.
And I'll be lookin fer ya in the unfriendly skies Voss (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I was on for 10 min a few miniutes ago in my 38 first thing i encounter is a 25k lanc, i climb and climb and climb and climb and shoot him down, then as im returning to earth i see another red dot, but i cant pick out the con then i look up and see a dot. im at abut 22k now so i say $^&% and start climbing again, i reach 30k and im still below the con to the point to be out of icon range. finally at 33k it shows up B-17, great, then all the sudden i see him drop his bombs and vanish?
my only conclusion is that he alt-f4'd.
so i spend the next 3 months with engines on idle returning to the milky way galexy after wasting all my gas and TIME chasing some jackwad who was at probably 36k or so and then just left the game after he dropped his bombs.
Naaa, i dont see anything dweeby about any of that, do you? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I used to feel that way too Wobble, but then I though of how much more damage they could be causing if they were only climbing to 20k-25k feet. I think they are esentially taking themselves out of the game, except when they are attacking the HQ.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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Those buffs were at 35k+ when they were W of 18.
IMHO, to get a buff to 35k or even 40k is the most idiotic thing anyone can do. The buff pilot will waste almost an entire hour of his time (and those who he brings along with him), you deprive your team of (in the case of this raid) 10 or so people for that said hour... and all for what? The moment the target country detects a large bar and knows its an HQ raid (and see they at ungodly height) they WILL up in 109g10's with BFG cannons en masse.
The defenders spend 8 or 10 minutes climbing, in this case, 16 defenders. Then they HO the buffs, knowing that this is the way to do get the buff formation down quickly to non-dangerous levels (aka not enough K of bombs to down hq).
So you do the math... 10+ people out of strat effort for an hour or so and dont accomplish nothing vs 16 people that are out of the strat effort for 8-10 minutes and DO accomplish something.
Its just dumb. Get 2 lancasters to 25k and bring 2 escorts, they have a MUCH higher chance of success than a massive-b17 raid with escorts at 35k.
I still say that there should be 10k alt raised fields in the home islands. BOMBER BASES, with only 1 BH, 1 VH, ammo, fuel, no barracks and acks. This way buff raids would be more common, as the buff pilots would take less than half the time to reach their bombing alt (25k). The only problem is, dweebs like those in the above mentioned raid would use these bases to go to 45k. Perhaps HTC should make that above 28k you would not see target, no matter how much ZOOM you apply to the norden laserbombsight.
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Y'all remember those lovely shots of cloud layers in AH?
Once 1.06 comes out the hi alt dweebs, be they buff or fighters won't have it so easy anymore +) It will be the gamers, gaming the game using in flight GPS to fly to the target while completely immersed in a cloud bank that will then invoke whines +)
SKurj
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Tac,
I flew close escort for this bomber raid. It was purposely designed to be a LONG-DIFFICULT mission. Not a low altitude milkrun! The mission was to go up against strong opposition and not hit the HQ by a couple of sneakthrough buffs. I personally commented to my flight on the radio to expect the ASSASSINS to meet us. We respect our enemy and we knew we going into a hard fight. I had a lot of fun and everone did as well.
You are telling us how dumb it is to fly a certain way. The only thing I think is DUMB is a guy posting how everyone should fly.
In addition make a statements like:
The only problem is, dweebs like those in the above mentioned raid would use these bases to go to 45k.
indicates to me that you have a very BIG ego and very little respect for a lot of fine pilots!
Thunder
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at 35k? nope, no respect at all.
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Whels1 Wrote:
BS Thunder, i was 1 of the 1st Rooks to find the buff/p51 stream, i was a p38 at 35 freekin K and all the p51s and b17s were 2
to 4k above me.
Whels
Whels1,
I was the flight leader of the close escort buffs. The buffs were at 30K and we spotted you HIGH and to our 12 oclock position. Our 51s climbed from 32K to approximately 34K to meet you and you dove to the Buffs from a possition approximately 2K higher then ours. I estimated your altitude at approximately 36K to start. We followed you down and trough and I personally chased your sorry arse far away from the buffs. You never got close to them and in your P38 just did an ineffective stringline away from the buffs. Your account of the buffs and 51s above you by 5k when you were at 35K is a TOTAL FABRICATION. The picture I am shown here show the altitude of buffs as I am coming in behind a 109. This is after I chased you away and came back to the formation. PLEASE IN THE FUTURE... GET YOUR STORY STRAIGHT!
Tac wrote:
at 35k? nope, no respect at all.
35K.... hmmm looks like 30K but who gives a RATS RIPP about who you respect at all anyway!
(http://www.13thtas.com/images/clear/whels1.jpg)
Thunder
[This message has been edited by Thunder (edited 02-28-2001).]
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Hahahahah, what a bunch of alt-monkey-dweebs ... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Wasn't there and am sorry I missed it, Large Buff formation escorted by P51/ P47's is rare nowadays... I don't care what altitude they are at, it usualy is a blast when either flying it or intercepting it...
High speed passes when you can barely maintain your kite flying straight is good fun IMO (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Biggest one I remember dates back from about a year ago, Bee & I switched to Bishes for a day, as CavemanJ and Redwing were organising Big B17/P51 raids if I remember well, we had a flight if 18 B17's escorted with something like 15->20 P51's ... Good memories... 30K or not.
Of course, now, I find myself intercepting buffs much more than escorting them, hehehe... fun too!
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MASS/SAW
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/fw190fp.gif) (http://eismeer.port5.com/)
click HERE (http://eismeer.port5.com/) for info on III./JG 5 Eismeer
"You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave..."
DISCLAIMER---> this Post always has a smilie ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 03-01-2001).]
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I intercepted your alt monkey group W of 18, I was at 33k, buffs were higher.
Personally, I give a damn if you buff at 50k as long as it isnt to hit HQ, which is something that affects ALL the people playing. But I guess fair play is not to be expected as long as "gaming the game" is possible eh? Sad, sad.
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wrong again. i was a p38 at 35k in sector
10 6, i was 1 of the 1st rooks to find the stream west of 21. i was 35 and all p51s and b17s were above me by 2 to 4k at merge with
me still at 35k, i even killed a f4u at 34k trailin behing the stream protectin a laggin buff.
whels
Originally posted by Thunder:
Whels1 Wrote:
35K.... hmmm looks like 30K but who gives a RATS RIPP about who you respect at all anyway!
(http://www.13thtas.com/images/clear/whels1.jpg)
Thunder
[This message has been edited by Thunder (edited 02-28-2001).]
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Cute picture of them gaining speed and getting to an alt where they could see the HQ on max zoom on the nordenlaserbombsight.
Avoid all the possible danger en-route by going 35k, dive to target visible alt, drop bombs, climb back up or use the buff turn ability at high alt to deathstar anyone to death. Gaming the game, in all its pathetic glory.
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Guys...
It's fricken 5k of altitude.. and the buff's were humiliated anyway.
So it's probably best to just give up on this thread because is it getting anyone anywhere?
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I simply can't understand why they don't institute some real bombing accuracy issues in AH to deal with all this. The argument "Well they invested all that time to get that high" doesn't wash with me, who cares, so they put it on autoclimb off the map, had a beer, watched some tv and came back, that's not really sufferring.
Some of these high alt wonders in 1.06 might have something to do to change that, but who is going to really want to risk their Ta152 to shoot down a bomber that has a 50/50 chance of shooting them down. As it is the bombers handle far better up that high than a fighter... ever tried a 109 above 30K.. geez, turn, what's that.... First pass you make you'll blow 7K recovering.
-Soda
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If the clouds roll in then bombing a target from 30 won't happen.
It might be fair to put a terminal layer at about 25k over the HQs to be fair. That would force the bombers down lower.
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It wouldn't be fair to have too many clouds Moose, or high alt bombing would be boring. I'd hate to fly all the way to a target at reasonable alt and find it totally obscured and not be able to bomb. Accurate, yep, fun in AH, nope. I sure hope they don't do that, you'll never see any bombers flying around for the possibility that they'll fly for 45 minutes only to rtb with their bombs still hanging from the racks. They'd better put in weather reports if that's the case (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I'm just saying, from 30+K you should be lucky to be able to land a bomb within the perimeter of the airfield let alone hit a solitary ack.
-Soda
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Tac,
LOL
You seem to be enjoying making up and modifing events as you go. You are really a peace of work.
We killed all the evil buffs but I can't stand them going so high! WAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
WHINER!
(http://www.13thtas.com/images/spoof/crybaby.jpg)
Thunder
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I agree with soda... The real issue is accuracy. I don't think they should be able to hit a lone ack at any alt. They should be luky to hit anywhere within the fiels at 20K. It is very annoying to see a buff go over at even 15 or 20 k and know that he will close the field you are using.
The way buffs accuracy is right now it would not bother me if I never saw another one online.
lazs
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takes any decent intercept fighter like 6 or 7 minutes to climb to 30k, buffs take damn near an hour. If some buffer wants to take the time to do this, with still a good chance of getting shot down before the target, then more power to him. Watch yer dar (if you still have it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) and send a fighter or 2 up to intercept rather than panic and cry because a buff is in the progress of egging you HQ . Lil' forsight is all it takes guys (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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loser, i think you miss the point. the buffs have nothing better to do with their time than climb. Most fighters would rather fight other fighters and simply ignore bombers. I certainly do not want to miss out on fighting simply to keep some unrealistic buff from ruining the game.
We have more fun things to do than hunt and kill or be killed by buffs. Who wants to hunt buffs when there are fights to be had. Killing buffs is something that, at best, we are forced into. Not something most do as a choice. If accuraccy were reduced to a realistic level then we could ignore the buffs just that much longer before they ruined our game.
lazs
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That sounds fun... You guys should attack Knitland like that so we can intercept you. It would be nice to be high enough for a 109 to shine.
Getting attacked by an organized group is as fun as attacking with an organized group.
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I really wonder how many of these strato-buffers really sit around and watch their computer for the 45 minutes it takes to climb to 30K anyway, I doubt many of them. they're probably sitting somewhere else or chatting on the open channel to take up the time. The argument that "if they invest the time to get that high they should be safe" is weak to non-existent. Many of them have a pretty good chance of survival at 15-20K if they can convince a friend to come along for escort for part of the way.
I can accept increase, over realistic, accuracy as a gameplay issue, no problem there, but this pinpoint, safe bombing from 30+K is silly. Who's going to risk their precious Ta152 up that high against a 50/50 attack on a bomber... I wouldn't, to risky. It's like attacking an Ostie 1 on 1, 50 percent of the time you'll die.
-Soda