Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: LePaul on March 14, 2008, 12:48:58 AM
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I was reading about the systems that feed power into the grid and credit your power bill as a result.
There seem to be some modest systems for $4-5K.
Anyone use any such system? Im not looking to live off grid, we just dont have enough sun-light for that up here. But from some of the reading I've done, many people wind up paying very little, or actual wind up being owed $$ by the power company.
Right now, my powerbill is skyrocketing. I thought this might be a decent way to lower my costs.
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For a 1500 watt house load x 24 hrs you get 36 KH hr / day load.
You realistically get about 5 hours a day with a non-suntracking system. so 24 / 5 ... you need about 5 times your 1.5 kw load or about 7500 watts to be making all the electricity you need.
I am building a 45' x 40' pole barn, and one slope of the roof is facing due south.
I talked to a solar contractor yesterday, and he said the cost of an installed system is about $8 / watt.
I have enough roof for a 10 KW system, but 80 grand was a little more than I had expected.
Oregon will allow a $6000 tax credit over four years, (1,500 per year) the Oregon Energy trust will pay $2 per watt up front, and there is a fed incentive, but all the incentives seem to max out at about $14K.
That still leaves 66K for my max system.
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Welcome to the darkside. ;)
I'm not doing any solar, but I am saving up for a Skystream 3.7 wind generator. EcoVantage (http://www.ecovantageenergy.com/) is the place I'm looking to buy from. They have solar as well as wind power that feed the grid.
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I'm doing some research into solar systems. When I get my hands on my binder (which I forgot my key to get into my locker), I'll post some of the information I have here.
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Well that's the catch...getting the right sized system...that pays you back...in your lifetime!
I've been reading about these systems: http://www.solarmarket.com/frontier.html
But honestly, I don't know my needs. I need to research that. And have someone do a site survey to make sure this is workable for my location. My garage roof faces south and we get a ton of sunlight, so much so that we have to shut the blinds or cook during the warmer months.
With oil skyrocketing, and my state refusing to allow a nuclear power plant to be here, I just want to put a dent in the power bill. Then use whatever savings into what I'll get screwed buying heating oil :)
I see there are two on grid systems...one simply feeds straight out to the grid and builds a credit. The other uses an inverter to power your usage...if you arent using it, it goes out to the grid, generating a credit. I like the sounds of #2 but its obviously going to be a more expensive system.
My home is a ranch, 1-story home with a full basement. Not huge by any means, so possibly a good candidate for savings.
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In Oregon (again) they used to pay you for any over generation, but now they keep it on account and if you are a net generator in long summer days, and you get it back in the winter.
They zero your acount in March and any net generation is put into the po'folks fund.
I've been looking into it for some time now, and RPM might look into an inverter panel that handles an input from your PVs and has a second input for your wind generator. (they exist)
Oregon has a credit system for wind but you need a average yearly wind speed of something like 10 mph. I need a recording anemometer and track speed for a year and see if my site qualifies.
I am an engineer at a Natural Gas Turbine powerplant and I would like to be a net generator at home.
As for payback, hot tubs and flat screens don't have a payback... If I could get the cost to where I would feel ok about spending the money, I would do it just to have it.
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Im at the end of a very busy, 11,400ft runway...so I think the restrictions on wind generation will be huge for me.
(Hey, we get C-5s and KC-135s in the pattern almost daily...those guys could keep my wind mill cranking for quite some time! I could be the first to cash in on wake turbulence!)
This is good info, I should followup on the Maine regs on this. (Found some info: http://www.nrcm.org/solar_rebate.asp )
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Oregon has a credit system for wind but you need a average yearly wind speed of something like 10 mph. I need a recording anemometer and track speed for a year and see if my site qualifies.
No, you don't. I have my hands on a Nasa website that shows you collected data per region of both Insolation (average energy kWhrs/m^2) and average wind speed over a 10 year period, per month. I'll try to remember to post it tomorrow.
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No, you don't. I have my hands on a Nasa website...
If I were in the Columbia Gorge I wouldn't... but the US Renewable Energy Map says my locale is rated less than marginal.
Believe it or not, a good 75% of Oregon is high desert, and that is where I am… it turns out my solar potential is better than if I were living in Arizona! Hot weather degrades solar panel performance so we are better suited and my altitude gets me above 10% of the atmospheric interference.
I look forward to your link regardless.
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In Oregon (again) they used to pay you for any over generation, but now they keep it on account and if you are a net generator in long summer days, and you get it back in the winter.
They zero your acount in March and any net generation is put into the po'folks fund.
So let me see if I have this right.
You get to spend $80k for a system that generates power. In March, if you have generated more power than you used during the year, the surplus power/value will be involuntarily taken from you and put into the po'folks fund?
Is that right? If so, may I hazard a guess that the Oregon legislature is dominated by the Democratic party?
I've no beef with donating power to the po'folks. It's that "we don't need your permission" part after YOU spent the $80k on the system.
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So let me see if I have this right.
You got it right.
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Most states here in Oz pay you for power you feed into the grid. there was one guy in a neighbourhood I used to live in that always got a monthly cheque from the power company.
Then there was the system that a guy who I may or may not know with similar electrical engineering background designed for someone he knew in the *ahem* horticultural business that cost an absolute fortune, but then so did his previous power bills. The power room was almost as large as his production facilities and required as much ventilation and cooling, but it worked well for him.
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Welcome to the darkside. ;)
I'm not doing any solar, but I am saving up for a Skystream 3.7 wind generator. EcoVantage (http://www.ecovantageenergy.com/) is the place I'm looking to buy from. They have solar as well as wind power that feed the grid.
+1 on the skystream. From the research that I've done, it can be installed for a little more than 10K, with a 1.8KW output if you have an 12mph average windspeed. We happen to be on the third tallest hill in the county we live in, so wind isn't an issue for us :cool:
The only thing I've found, but haven't been able to confirm it, is if you have a wind turbine, and you are connected to the grid, if the grid goes down, you won't have access the the power generated by the wind turbine. The only way to have power at that point would be to have a battery storage room. I'm not sure why this is (why the power can't be used directly). It may have to do with the way the turbine gets hooked into the grid (so you can sell excess power back).
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Grid-tied with battery backup ftw.
I personally don't like going all in 1 direction. Solar panels + wind turbine + hydro turbine (if available on your lot.. needs enough elevation to provide the head pressure to generate a useful amount of power).
All of that can be really nice... but it helps even more to reduce the load on your system completely if you're building a new home. In-line water heaters, programmable thermostat, effecient appliances, z-wave/x-10 everything electrical in the house and hook it up to a PC to automate it and keep things off that aren't being used.
I don't want a system that just pays for itself over time. I want the power companies to be cutting me a check :)
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Living in Florida... yes. Just had the house lined up for a system, though small.
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Wind towers. Check all your state, county and city laws carefully before putting one up. Some have height restrictions, some have noise restrictions and some even have what they call "eyesore" laws. My brother had 9 acre farm, closest neighbor was 1/2 mile away and he looked into putting up a wind tower. The county wouldn't give him a permit to build it because it was considered to "detract from the local esthetics of the scenery" :huh So the 1/2 mile of power poles running to his house and the nuclear plant 20 miles away don't? :rolleyes: Somehow i think ComEd, who owns/runs the nuke plant bought off the county government. Non competition contracts should be outlawed.
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I was reading about the systems that feed power into the grid and credit your power bill as a result.
There seem to be some modest systems for $4-5K.
Anyone use any such system? Im not looking to live off grid, we just dont have enough sun-light for that up here. But from some of the reading I've done, many people wind up paying very little, or actual wind up being owed $$ by the power company.
Right now, my powerbill is skyrocketing. I thought this might be a decent way to lower my costs.
check out this website..
http://www.solarhouse.com/
It really just depends where you live as to how well it will work for you, but there are also some very interesting new solar and wind technology in the works. On the side note to take full benefit, the house really needs to be designed from the ground up to get the full potental.
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http://www.dsireusa.org/ This website lists federal, state and local initiatives for all renewable energy sources for both a residential, and a commercial application.
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http://eosweb.larc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/sse/register.cgi?email=&task=login&next_url=/cgi-bin/sse/ion-p&page=globe_main.ion&app=gri
This is the website to look up your local conditions.
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We are thinking hard about getting a solar panel set up at the summer house. Its close to the ocean so im guessin the reflection from the water will help and maybe help even more when the sun is not shining directly at the panels.
Will be a small test system though. Only for powering the lights on the pier and a small electric pump for the dingy. Could be fun to try :)
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LePaul.... I also use Oil Heat, I own a single story rancher, about 1700 square ft. I bought a wood pellet stove Rated for 1500 sq. ft. WOW it does the whole house nicely. My Oil consumption is only limited to the hot water now. sofar since Holloween i used 110 gallons to heat the water and house. Natural gas is not in my area.
My stores in Philly I put in 2 wood pellet stoves and turned off the gas. I burn about 3 to 5 dollars of pellets per day.
thats about 130 bucks a month compared to my old gas bills of 12 to 16 hundred per month.
I use 3 bucks a day tops! to heat my house. LOWE's usually sells their stoves 50% off in March You can pick one up for 400 bucks.
Nuttz
Well that's the catch...getting the right sized system...that pays you back...in your lifetime!
I've been reading about these systems: http://www.solarmarket.com/frontier.html
But honestly, I don't know my needs. I need to research that. And have someone do a site survey to make sure this is workable for my location. My garage roof faces south and we get a ton of sunlight, so much so that we have to shut the blinds or cook during the warmer months.
With oil skyrocketing, and my state refusing to allow a nuclear power plant to be here, I just want to put a dent in the power bill. Then use whatever savings into what I'll get screwed buying heating oil :)
I see there are two on grid systems...one simply feeds straight out to the grid and builds a credit. The other uses an inverter to power your usage...if you arent using it, it goes out to the grid, generating a credit. I like the sounds of #2 but its obviously going to be a more expensive system.
My home is a ranch, 1-story home with a full basement. Not huge by any means, so possibly a good candidate for savings.
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I'm fascinated with energy production too, but unsatisfied with battery storage for energy. The losses are high, and the replacement costs plus limited lifetime for chemical batteries really make it a tough sell to me.
A technology I'd like to see developed more is flywheel storage. A heavy flywheel cylinder in a vacuum mounted to magnetic bearings w/ a coil wound into it that can either be used to inductively accelerate it (when you have power coming from wind/solar) and then be used to extract energy from it when those sources aren't on. It's a moving part, but built right, could probably last decades. Batteries have a very Logan's Run-esque hard-kill date.
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The thing for me is, how many people are going to stay in the same house for 20 years until the system helps pay for itself.
There is a company I found awhile ago that will install a complete system on your home, but they still own it. It was like a lease type deal and they'd maintain it all. I'll try to find the website, because it was a interesting idea.
And they would move the system to a different home if you moved.
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They use Flywheels in large scale corporate uses because the batteries kicking on aren't always constant, or instantaneous.
Nuke is talking about a Power Purchasing Agreement. Basically, they build a system FOR FREE on your house (though its mostly done in a commercial use). They use the government incentives to offset the cost, and then sell you electricity at less than electric power rates. After 15-20 years when they've made a decent profit, the system automatically transfers ownership to the building owner.
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I'm fascinated with energy production too, but unsatisfied with battery storage for energy. The losses are high, and the replacement costs plus limited lifetime for chemical batteries really make it a tough sell to me.
A technology I'd like to see developed more is flywheel storage. A heavy flywheel cylinder in a vacuum mounted to magnetic bearings w/ a coil wound into it that can either be used to inductively accelerate it (when you have power coming from wind/solar) and then be used to extract energy from it when those sources aren't on. It's a moving part, but built right, could probably last decades. Batteries have a very Logan's Run-esque hard-kill date.
The best method as far as energy efficiency seems to be mini-water turbines installed in PVC pipe. You have to be near a stream, but not very much of a stream can create a lot of power through them.
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Nuke, that sounds like a great system, but I'm talking about energy storage. Even a measly 2% efficiency from "Source X" would be fine with me if it's cheap enough that the 2% is worth it, but an inefficient storage system that craps away a bunch of whatever I gathered and needs to be replaced every few years for lottabucks (batteries) takes some starch out of my sails.
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I was reading about the systems that feed power into the grid and credit your power bill as a result.
There seem to be some modest systems for $4-5K.
Anyone use any such system? Im not looking to live off grid, we just dont have enough sun-light for that up here. But from some of the reading I've done, many people wind up paying very little, or actual wind up being owed $$ by the power company.
Right now, my powerbill is skyrocketing. I thought this might be a decent way to lower my costs.
Do a home equity loan, buy a sky stream. My brother-in-law sells and installs them. take about 7 years to recoup your money, but then you start earning money that the power company pays you:
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What's a sky stream?
If you're gonna plug your brother, post some links! (I can't beleive Im asking YOU of all people to post a link LOL)
I'm watching to mortgage markets like a hawk, ready to refi once it gets lower. I'd like to talk to a someone who can quote out the best system for my place. I like what Nuttz has said about the wood pellet stoves. Between that and solar, plus perhaps adding in a Rinnai water heater to the house...and replacing the furnce to a modern one...........I dunno, I just really want to make the house as efficient as possible.
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I am saving up for a Skystream 3.7 wind generator. EcoVantage (http://www.ecovantageenergy.com/) is the place I'm looking to buy from. They have solar as well as wind power that feed the grid.
Welcome to page 1. ;)
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Here is a better link. Skystream 3.7 (http://www.ecovantageenergy.com/catalog/items/item690.htm)
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LePaul.... I also use Oil Heat, I own a single story rancher, about 1700 square ft. I bought a wood pellet stove Rated for 1500 sq. ft. WOW it does the whole house nicely. My Oil consumption is only limited to the hot water now. sofar since Holloween i used 110 gallons to heat the water and house. Natural gas is not in my area.
My stores in Philly I put in 2 wood pellet stoves and turned off the gas. I burn about 3 to 5 dollars of pellets per day.
thats about 130 bucks a month compared to my old gas bills of 12 to 16 hundred per month.
I use 3 bucks a day tops! to heat my house. LOWE's usually sells their stoves 50% off in March You can pick one up for 400 bucks.
Nuttz
Pellets is very interesting, and they have become VERY popular over here. I really wish we had installed that when we buildt the house a few years back and not the parafin burners. I will prolly replace the oil with pellets soon, and maybe even this summer. Not only is it cheap, but its getting even cheaper as more people use it. It is made from material that would decompose and produce co2 in nature anyway so its almost 100% friendly to the enviroment. Maybe not a selling point for republicans, but for the rest of us it is. :)
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Most of the pellet stoves have a 40 Lbs hopper and last 30 hours or so. I bought a 240 Lbs commercial Pellet stove rated for 22 hundred square feet. It last all week before cleaning the ash box and refill. The stoves can be connected to the thermostat also, and last even longer. Mostly what i like is, the best i could do with gas is turn it on hi and get 68 degrees at best. Now i can get it 90 and it's much drier. Besides eviroment friendly and Cost effective.
The down side is getting the pellets, I buy a ton at a time (50-40 Lbs. bags) cost about 190 buck. Even K-mart is selling the pellets now. And you need a place to store them. But WOW some stoves are AWSOME!!!!
A local dealer has a 8 foot brushed metal stove with a water fall.
NUTTZ
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What are the cleaning requirements for a pellet stove? (I'm thinking like regular wood burning, where you worry about creosole?)
How about the chimney?
I heard a conversation on the radio about replacing a wood pellet stove as the heating system. Its still relatively new....but I would like to learn more.
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I clean the "Pot" (were the pellets fall into) every day. This takes about 1-2 minutes, It involves just emptying it and a quick vacuuming out. The Ash falls below the "Pot" into an ash drawer. I empty this Once a month. (just dump it into the trash can) The stove pipe I clean out once at the end of the season.
With the pellet stove, the heat can be really regulated pretty nicely. Were as Wood stoves you can't regulate the flame, you put in a log and it will burn hot until it burns out, so it's more of a roller coaster ride on the heat. Also I don't think they have a blower on them, so the heat is radiant.
The pellet stove is 2 chambered so the flame side isn't connected to the blower side. To get a hotter flame it turns the hopper screw and feeds the pellets faster. SO you can really regulate it evenly. The fan or blower also has different speeds, it really blows out forcefully some really hot air. The Stove pipe has a thimble it only needs an 8' hole into the wall. you can't see any of the pipeing inside, outside theres about 3 feet. It doesn't have to clear the roof at all. the pipe is also double insulated with a "critter" guard. No smoke smoke smell or ash inside the house, since that side of the chamber isn't connected to the hot air side. Creosole is almost none existant since the pellets burn so fuel efficient. It is there but not like a wood burning stove. It has an air intake... on newer and mobile homes they need to be vented to the outside or you will suffocate ( a wood stove needs a window cracked)
My house i don't need it vented, I will vent it when i am done weatherproofing my house better. Back to the Creosole.. the manufacturer recommends cleaning the air tubes and blower blades ( intake and exhuast) every 5 tons. Effiency of a fire place is + or - 10% wood stove is probably alittle better wood stove is 99% efficient ONLY Corn burning stoves beat it, not in heat, but in Dollars vs. BTU's.
Let me put it this way... My oil bill was so high I thought the Oil delivery guy was ripping me off. they say My house will use between 5-7 gallons of Oil a day to heat at near 4 bucks a gallon even on the low end it's 600 a month. Before I cut the heat zone off to the garage, i was burning over 7 gallons a day. No heat to the garage with the pellet stove and im 1 40 Lbs bag a day, this runs 24-7... cost 3-4 bucks a day depending on were i get the pellets.
Wood stove..smoke smell,smoke in house, radiant heat need chopped cords of wood Unless you have unlimited supply of free wood on your property and the efficiency I wouldn't do it. It would be a great additive to your existing heat supply. Flue and space is also a factor.
Wood Pellet.. Safer, no smell of smoke or smoke in house effient dry heat. And it does replace the Oil heat completely. You can really find any spot in the house for these, Clearance to the back 4 inches clearance on sides is about 2 inches. The drawbacks Lowe's buys the pellets at the begining of the season once gone they are gone till next season. Picking up bags and bags of pellets, daily cleaning.
Pluss's.. My Oil dependency foot print is getting smaller as well as my pollution foot print. And It's SEXY!!!
My wife LOVES the fire.
Now, your milage may vary, i'll try to post some pics..
Best Move I ever made, between my stores and house I knocked of 3k a month off my winter heating bills
NUTTZ
What are the cleaning requirements for a pellet stove? (I'm thinking like regular wood burning, where you worry about creosole?)
How about the chimney?
I heard a conversation on the radio about replacing a wood pellet stove as the heating system. Its still relatively new....but I would like to learn more.