Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: wrag on March 15, 2008, 03:53:54 AM
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This is interesting to me and SEEMS to ring TRUE!
http://mensnewsdaily.com/2008/03/14/liberal-progressive-mind-control/
And
http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58965
If you can't get the current generation to vote the way you want pull a Hitler Youth?
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The ruling is real, but this one won't stand.
The home school community is filled with incredibly passionate people...they'd have to be to take on the task of educating their kids. Those passionate people will mobilize their networks, and considerable political pressure will be brought to bear. I suspect this ruling will have a very short half life.
Can't claim to be unbiased on this one -- we've home schooled both our kids straight through. Our oldest is in college on a President's Scholarship, with a career goal of being a Professor of Classical Languages and Ancient Greek/Roman History. (Her schedule freaks me out -- this year she's got upper level Latin, upper level Ancient Greek, Classical Mythology, Modern German, History of Middle East, and some core liberal arts courses.) My son's only a sophomore in HS, but is academically successful (as judged by national standardized tests) and is showing maturity far beyond his years.
My point is that home schooling absolutely CAN work, can be an alternative to traditional bureaucratized methods of instruction. When some use "home schooling" as a cover (whether it's to cover up the kids' social/emotional failings, to hide from negative contacts, to avoid detection of abuse or neglect) the problem isn't the home schooling, any more than cars are the cause of drunk driving accidents.
And just as there are those who think government shouldn't try to solve ANY problems, there are those (far more numerous) who think government should be the only solution for EVERY problem, even when the government solutions are failing by common consent. This judge is one.
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The anti-home schoolers must be pointing out to this...
Prussian Blue
(http://nathanielstern.com/blog/wp-content/prussianbluecopy.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Prussian_Blue.jpg)
The duo singers were home schooled. They received large dosages of "Revisionist History of the World from the AryanTM perspective" from their mother~
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I've heard the pros and cons of homeschooling over the years.
My Dad has been in education for years. He's seen kids enroll at his highschool that were homeschooled. Some were brilliant, some were woefully way behind. All had some serious problems adjusting to the social aspect of learning with others, etc.
One of my coworkers at my former job was one of those super-passionate about homeschooling guys. He would preach how terrible the schools are, as if their rural school was some sort of Bronx one. When my Dad came over to tour the datacenter and see what I do, this moron took it upon himself to preach to my Dad all about home terrible the schools are. Mind you, my Dad has been in education for years, helping launch the evening adult education programs in many areas, plus serving as assistant principal for 15, and as an assistant superintendent. So obviously, he's pretty passionate about the education system. My Dad rolled his eyes a lot but listened to the chucklehead preach his tin-foil hat opinions.
What made this all so much more fun was when this guys kid tried to enroll in highschool, he was way, way behind. My coworkers wife was supposed to be the "homeschooler" and more often than not, just brought the kids shopping with her everyday...because daycare cost too much.
While I think some homeschoolers are really thriving, sadly there are many that do not. In my coworkers case, its just overprotective parents afraid to expose their kids to socializing and learning amongst others.
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Home schooled kids do better than public school kids on average. I'm sure i can dig up stats and studies if anyone doubts it. No surprise that Kalifornia wants complete control over your kids minds.
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Anti-home schoolers= teachers' unions--they could give a damn about the kids as long as they can be counted in a census and contribute to the $ per head for public school salaries
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Which takes us back to indoctrination...
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Anti-home schoolers= teachers' unions--they could give a damn about the kids as long as they can be counted in a census and contribute to the $ per head for public school salaries
IMHO perhaps you might want to look a little further into the matter.
It's not quite the way you seem to think, but perhaps it would be better if you looked for yourself.
It's not strictly the teachers unions.
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Teacher's unions fight the very idea of home-schooling, vouchers, etc tooth and nail, and the Dem politicians who are beholden to them carry out their wishes--is there something bigger going on here?
http://www.heritage.org/research/education/ednotes92.cfm
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Seems like whether you are a teacher in a school setting or a parent teacher in a home setting, the results of the teaching is directly related to the time effort and seriousness that the teacher places into it. Of course, I know that the kids also share a great responsibility in this. But even when the children slack off, it's the teacher who makes a difference in pointing them back in the right direction.
p.s. later I'll go back & read the article. I know definitely that the amount of money given per attending child is always a consideration to any school. But the value of that money vs. the education of the children is probably prioritized at different levels by each school or district.
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I am not a fan of homeschooling. Those students do not have to adhere to the same standards as regular district students, but recieve awards and scholorships over those same students. I don't like parochial schools either. Every child is entitled, yes ENTITLED, to the best education available. I don't like vouchers, as they would be destructive to the educational system as a whole. It would turn it into a commercial operation instead of a social foundation.
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Every child is entitled to the best schooling available and vouchers for private schools would go a long way. public education has become nothing more than a leftist indoctrination machine. Our kids cannot read, write, add or subtract but they can tell you everything that a white man has supposedly done wrong in the history of the world and tell you how owning a SUV makes you a destroyer of our planet...
Get the illegals out of the country first as their kids are wasting resources that should be used to educate our own - or send mexico the damned bill for all of their expenses - medical, education, etc etc...
I was fortunate enough to have 4 years of private school, my parents had to pay the same tax for the loser schools that they were not using PLUS make the sacrifice to send both my brother and myself to a school where we would actually be taught history, science, math and ENGLISH. It is unfair that they had to foot the bill for something they deemed unusable. Certainly a substantial tax credit or voucher should be allowed if someone chooses to get their kids out of the public education cesspool.
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Laser said it best with the fewest words. The State can't brainwash the children if the parents are teaching them.
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Yes, only the parents can brainwash. Does that make it better?
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The State has been doing such a fine job, right? The Teachers Union is nothing but a bunch of Socialist who's only goal is to make the next generation stupid so they'll be easier to control for the State. Socialists do not want children that could be independent when they grow up.
P.S. One thing they do teach the children well at public schools is how to spy on their parents for the State.
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Can`t have anything out of the governmental loop and control now can we?
That chipping sound you here is your rights and freedom being eroded.
Let the parents decide.
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Rpm, the schools are already commercial enterprises. The bottom line is...the bottom line. There is a mindset in the public schools that equates success with size and "efficiency." Bigger schools are seen as being the most efficient, and so, for several decades now, schools have done everything possible to increase their enrollments.
Burgeoning class sizes and school enrollments have, indeed, led to greater dollar efficiency. Yet, this has come with a multitude of problems: higher crime rates and violence; a lack of time on the part of teachers to devote to individualized instruction; a dilution of time, effort, and money into superfluous courses; a proliferation of "social" courses that divert attention from mastery of the core curriculum; state-mandated guidelines and paper work that suck most of the joy out of teaching; "fad" teaching methods that have taken the place of time-tested methods of language and math instruction that have worked for thousands of years.
Relating to that last example, let me state that rote-memorization is going the way of the do-do. In a recent educational workshop I nearly came to blows with a group of elementary teachers who are dead-set against any form of math instruction that involves rote memorization and drill. They would rather teach the "method" for finding the answer than the answer itself. When I asked them, rather bluntly I might add, if any of them ever used full-class or individual drill to help their students memorize their multiplication tables I was answered with blank stares.
If you have wondered why American students lag so far behind their foreign counterparts in math achievement, there is your answer. If you ever find your child doing their multiplication tables on their fingers you need to go slap hell out of their math teachers.
There is a reason that parochial school students outperform their peers in the public schools. Parochial schools do not embrace these educational fads. Each of their graduating classes proves that the old ways are, indeed, the best. That is why so many of our national and state legislators who are so firmly opposed to vouchers and home-schooling send their own children to private schools.
Home-schooling allows parents concerned about the negative influences of modern society upon their children, such influences being concentrated to a great degree in the public school system, to pull them out and take over the task of educating them themselves. Most parents know that the so-called benefits of socialization with large numbers of children their own age in the public schools are largely overblown. Children can interact with others of their own in a variety of settings other than in the classroom, whether in the church, boy or girl scouts, or local neighborhoods.
The State Department of Education in California recently concluded a very expensive study of the factors that lead to better student achievement and concluded: that students learn best when school and classroom sizes are small and teachers have more time for individualized instruction.
Well DOH! I could have told them as much, and it wouldn't have cost them nearly as much money.
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Shuckins, what do you think about single gender classes for math?
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Well, I can't say much about single-gender classes, having no first-hand experience with them. I've read a few reports over the years about how they have eliminated some discipline problems in the classroom. It seems that boys tend to act up more when there are girls present. Such classes might reduce discipline problems, especially in the critical elementary classes where the foundation is laid for all later learning.
Other than that, I have no solid information on which to base an opinion.
Regards, Shuckins
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Thanks Shuckins, also...
My understanding is that younger students are good at memorizing stuff but are not good a associating one thing with another, and as they get older they get better at association but loose the ability to memorize. If that's true why don't teachers of the younger children push memorization more?
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Teacher's unions fight the very idea of home-schooling, vouchers, etc tooth and nail, and the Dem politicians who are beholden to them carry out their wishes--is there something bigger going on here?
http://www.heritage.org/research/education/ednotes92.cfm
Try looking at WHO created what LAW and the REASONS given.
Also might wanna look at why so many suddenly decided to send their offspring to private school or began home schooling just recently.
It's not just the Teachers Unions involved here.
And please note that all of a sudden we have a Judge making a decision that home schooling isn't good enough? When for years it has been the RIGHT of parents to decide..........
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Try looking at WHO created what LAW and the REASONS given.
Also might wanna look at why so many suddenly decided to send their offspring to private school or began home schooling just recently.
It's not just the Teachers Unions involved here.
And please note that all of a sudden we have a Judge making a decision that home schooling isn't good enough? When for years it has been the RIGHT of parents to decide..........
I don't think we are disagreeing on much, other than who is most behind it
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZWNmOWRjZjk5ZDkxMGI4NGY2ZmJhNzQ0Y2FiMDAwODg=
A. J. Duffy, president of United Teachers Los Angeles, tells us that California’s Second District Court of Appeal was correct to rule last week that parents without teaching credentials cannot educate their children at home — i.e., that most of the 166,000-odd homeschooled students in the Golden State could be truants and their parents may be violating the law.
Duffy missed a fine opportunity to keep quiet when he said, “What’s best for a child is to be taught by a credentialed teacher.” This echoes other union honchos and even former California Superintendent for Public Instruction Delaine Eastin, who wrote in 2002 that all schooling in her state needed to be supervised by professionally trained teachers. Furthermore, Eastin noted, “Home schools are not even subject to competition from private schools, where the marketplace would presumably ensure some level of quality and innovation.”
Such statements are risible. Los Angeles Unified School District enrolls some 700,000 students taught by the credentialed teachers that Duffy represents, and a mere 33 percent of those pupils are proficient in reading, only 38 make the grade in math, and only 44 percent ever graduate. What’s best for a child, it seems, has little or nothing to do with the credentials Duffy cherishes.
Here is the crux of the case: The specifics of the court case in question are these: The eldest of Phillip and Mary Long’s eight children reported the father as physically and emotionally abusive. All eight children were hitherto homeschooled. An attorney representing the two youngest siblings asked a juvenile court to order that they be enrolled in a public or private school where teachers could monitor them daily. The lower court declined to issue such an order, noting that California parents have a right to home school their children. The Second District Court of Appeal disagreed.
---"physically and emotionally abusive"--may or may not be true....may simply be the kid railed against being told what to do, whereupon he found some leftist lawyers to donate their time, THEN found a leftist court (not a major feat in Kalifornia) to hear the case. They are trying to invalidate ALL home-schooling on the basis of this one case---if the parents are that bad, the kids should be removed, not just denied as teachers. Of course, the unsaid thing throughout this is MANY home-schoolers are very religious, and we CERTainly can't have any of THAT crap going on here :pray
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the whole point of the thing is that all government... all big government, be it conservative commie or liberal has a need to crush the individual and promote.. no.. insist on, conformity. Big government is the hive.
I send my grand daughter to catholic school.. she is far ahead of her public school friends a year further into their schooling.. It costs me a bit.. I would love to see vouchers so that other children had the same opportunities.
Public school... socialism.. is all about dragging everyone down to the weakest link. If that is what we want.. then that is what we will get.. it is working exactly like that now.
Kids know less every decade than the kids of the previous decade.
shukins inadvertently hit on it talking about "studies" it is a social experiment for the public school career academics.. the "new math" and the "new reading" and the "new history" that teach nothing at all. Yet....
they continue to experiment with something that is not complex.. something that worked before and now doesn't because of them.. All the while complaining about the wages they get for working part time and the lack of respect and LOL... "class size" and "not enough money"
how many of you have learned at classes or seminars or whatever with hundreds of people? catholic schools make do with half the money we throw at the public schools.
mg42 points out that someone taught their kids white power crap at home school.. in another thread here.. some kid talked about how his public school mush head teacher was teaching about how Bush orchestrated the twin tower destruction in order to kill thousands because he was mad at someone.
The truth is.. the liberals and the ultra right are wrong.. the kids shake that stuff off when they get older in any case.. otherwise... We would all be liberal socialists by now.. it doesn't work. just like all the other "experiments" and "studies" the public school morons come up with.
The kids pay in this tug of war of indoctrinization tho. as do we.
What matter if they know all about black history or can understand rudimentary spanish if... they can't do algebra or they can't read at more than my grand daughters first grade level when they graduate?
lazs
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Lots of folks criticising the public schools here. It's a rather common theme. There are some which are poor performers and others that do a pretty darn good job. They are not one stop operations however as there is more to educating your kids than dropping them off to school or shoving them out of the door to the bus stop.
The questions I have are these. How many of you have been inside a classroom to see how things are done, including your own kids class? Do you go to every parent teacher conference? How many of you have volunteered in a school? For those with a Bachelors degree, how many of you have done even any substitute teaching at any grade level?
You really ought to go look at what you are talking about and see how the kids behave and what the teachers and staff are up against.
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I took a fairly active roll when my daughter was in school.. I was shocked at the teachers lies. they bald faced lied to me on more than one occasion.. their "saintly" demenor fell apart when I pointed out that they were lieing.
For instance.. a multilingual class.. I watched it for hours on 5 different days... I pointed out that the kids were learning half as much (except in language skills) since everything was repeated in both languages and.. long explanations in one or the other language to kids who should not have even been in school.
she said that they were learning just as much.. that the system worked.. I pulled my daughter from that bilingual class.
I go to both the public and the catholic school to pick up my grand daughter and her friends when I am off.. the public school is a zoo.. no one could learn there. the catholic school is not.. my grand daughter can read to an extent.. the public school kids have no clue what "sounding out" means.
But.. I am sure that there are good public schools.. just as there are bad private ones.. the real point is that we should have a choice.. the bad public schools should not exist. they compete or die.
As for an active role.. the saintly teachers have our kids for the best hours of their live.. for most of their waking and productive hours.. for more than enough time to teach... when I went to school. the parents figured that the teachers were doing their job.. the parents made sure we were fed and healthy and moral and the teachers.....
they taught.. what a concept!!! parents do their job.. teachers do the teaching... it worked back then..
Just who is failing the kids then? the teachers can't teach. why should we have to pay and pay and pay and then have them make excuses for why the kid learns nothing after being in their care most of their waking hours?
Why not just let the schools compete? I used to hear how if Ma Bell or the post office had competition it would be the end of the world as we know it... guess what... they were right.
Now I hear that public schools will fall apart if parents get a choice..
If you think about it.. that is the most soundly damning evidence that public schools don't deserve to exist.. not the way they are now at least.
lazs
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Lots to agree with here...even about the plight of the public schools.
Bottom line for us was/is simple: What's best for MY kids?
We're homeschoolers, have been for about 16 years. From inside that "movement" we've noticed a bunch of reasons people home school:- The education optimizers (who may think their kids special abilities or special needs are being mishandled)
- The religious separators, whose primary concern is getting their kids AWAY from the secularist world
- The social escapers, who are essentially running from something (social conflict with peers, teacher problems)
- The legalists, who home school because a respected figure or moral guide tells them they ought to
Are there going to be problems? You bet. We bailed out of the area home schooler group after the first couple years, because that crew of families didnt seem to care about education quality nearly as much as we did.
We've seen families who can't keep their kids disciplined in the most general sense, and of course when they try to home school its a disaster for everyone. We've seen people who were motivated ONLY by their desire to protect their kids' religious beliefs -- which made actually giving a good education an entirely secondary goal, so the parents might come out and say that "regardless of the job I do, at least they're not in the public schools". I've seen kids go into "home school" to avoid legal action for truancy, and seen kids with serious school phobias and psychologic issues manipulate their parents into pulling them home. Some kids who can't get along with routine interpersonal stresses figure out they can hide from others by home schooling with a computer based program (our state runs a virtual academy online). I've seen control freak parents attempt to use home schooling to control their kids' mental development, but that hardly ever ends well!..... Needless to say, with a project as big as "education" ANYTHING out of whack has the potential for crashing and burning. Even worse, child neglecters and abusers often try to hide in the crowd of legitimate parents who chose to home school...which gives the rest of us even more black eyes.
The problems in schools are real, but IMHO they have more to do with structural issues than the teachers -- I have nothing but respect for them. They are saddled with classes too large to be effective, loaded with bureaucratic mandate after mandate, and literally expected to socialize every kid whose parents didn't do the job they should have. The bottom quartile behaviorally and academically soak up huge chunks of time and energy, and the state/federal "quality tests" divert the focus from actual learning. Then low functioning kids are expected to be "mainstreamed"...and so its not surprising when teachers end up having to "Challenge" the advanced kids with bigger homework loads instead of bigger ideas. The teachers just don't have the margin it takes to develop and run high achiever programs. I blame bureaucrats and politicians who value things they can measure more than things that are important...not the teachers, and not the foot soldiers fighting the good fight in the schools themselves.
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I don't think we are disagreeing on much, other than who is most behind it
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZWNmOWRjZjk5ZDkxMGI4NGY2ZmJhNzQ0Y2FiMDAwODg=
Here is the crux of the case: ---"physically and emotionally abusive"--may or may not be true....may simply be the kid railed against being told what to do, whereupon he found some leftist lawyers to donate their time, THEN found a leftist court (not a major feat in Kalifornia) to hear the case. They are trying to invalidate ALL home-schooling on the basis of this one case---if the parents are that bad, the kids should be removed, not just denied as teachers. Of course, the unsaid thing throughout this is MANY home-schoolers are very religious, and we CERTainly can't have any of THAT crap going on here :pray
No we aren't disagreeing LOL
This case does point squarely at the Teachers Unions.
I'm just adding in that while the Teachers Unions are in this up to their proverbial eyeballs, they are NOT the only people with an agenda here and seeking this change.
Several recent laws passed in Kalifornia that take away a great deal of Parental control SEEM to have a specific aim or goal and DON'T SEEM to be Teacher Union related.
It's been gradual but steady, more and more control of what is to be taught to our children is less and less controlled by the people that pay the way AND are SUPPOSED to be the Government. That silly "We the People..." sorta thing.
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Yes, only the parents can brainwash. Does that make it better?
So you're saying that the State has a greater right to "brainwash" the kids than the parents do?