Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Condor on March 15, 2008, 12:56:09 PM
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I’ve toyed with the idea of building a computer for years and have finally decided to take the plunge. I’m not a complete novice with respect to what’s inside the case. I’ve done video card, memory and hard drive upgrades in my last couple of computers. I find the challenge of physically putting one together properly only mildly intimidating and think I will enjoy it. What I find most challenging is selecting the “right” components. By that I don’t mean components that are compatible as much as the mix of components that will give me a very good performance with Aces High and Flight Simulator X without overdoing it too much. I want to be ahead of the curve but not so far that I’m throwing money away on performance potential that I will never tap.
Processor - Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 $190
I can spring for an E8400 but could I expect to see any difference? (and will I be able to find one ins stock at a decent price?)
Motherboard - Abit IP35 Pro $135 w rebate
The others considered were the ASUS P5K-E at $150 and the Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3 at $90. Except for some layout issues Tom's hardware gave the Abit a very good review.
Memory - CORSAIR XMS2 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 – 4GB for $56 total
I know 2GB is probably enough but memory is so cheap right now its almost free
Video EVGA 512-P3-N801-AR GeForce 8800GT 512MB 256 $190 (an 8800GTS costs about 20% more. Would I notice a difference?)
Sound - Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer $85
Hard Drive – Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD2500AAKS 250GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s
Alternatively, I’ve considered the Western Digital Raptor WD740ADFD 74GB 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache SATA but will I notice a difference.
PSU – SILVERSTONE ST75F ATX 12V 2.2 & EPS 12V 750W $150
Case – Antec 900 $80 w rebate
Zalman CPU cooler $53
I will appreciate comments/suggestions.
Thanks :)
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Just note that if you're running XP or 32 bit vista the system won't see the entire 4 gig. The max for the 32 bit os's is 4 gig, but that includes video card memory and other add in card memory. typically you'll see 3.2 to 3.5 gig depending on your add on cards. It is however better to go with 4 than 3 since you want to run in dual channel mode.
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Most reports I see claim the Antec PS isn't what it used to be and the OCZ's are more like the old Antec.
http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/power_management/power_supplies
A little note. Don't know if you would find it interesting but
http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/default.php?cPath=79
of course the price is just a tad on the high side :O
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Condor, I'm ordering the parts for my new build tomorrow. Many of the same ones as you. Here's my comments for what they are worth:
Intel 6750: Same one I'm ordering. Best bang for the buck in Core 2 Duos. Sounds like a breeze to overclock above 3.0, even on stock cooling. The E8400 has been pulled from most web-sites so I expect it will be a while before it shows back up and the additional cost is not offset by an equal increase in performance.
Motherboard: I'm going with an SLI supported motherboard so I can get the PCIe x16 2.0 slots. The boards you're looking at are some of the same one's I did and they all seem fine for non-SLI/non PCIe 2.0 boards.
Graphics card: The 512 8800 GTS costs ~20% than the GT more for ~10% more performance but it's got a seperate heat exhaust slot (which takes up another expansion slot). Both are good cards but if you're tight on space use the GT. Regardless which you get, from what I've heard you'll want to use Riva or nTune to crank up the fan speeds. I'm going with the GTS. Also, both these cards are x16 2.0 cards, and in the motherboard you've chosen, you'll only see 1/2 the potential data output. They will work but not at their full potential. In the end, I'd probably switch either the motherboard or the card.
Memory: Looks good but make sure to visit the motherboard manufacturers web-site to check it against the compatible memory list. It might save you some frustration and headaches as you begin to assemble everything.
Sound: Looks good to me. I'm going with the Fatailty version so I get the gameport for my old MS Sidewinder.
Hard Drive: Looks good again. I'm going with the 250GB Seagate 16mb cache. While the Raptors are fast, you still get better bang for the buck with a 7200 RPM drive.
PSU: Looks good. I'm getting the PC Power and Cooling model at 750 watts (but more $). You will need something like 28 or 35 amps (I forget the exact #) on the 12V rails to run the GPU your looking at.
Case: Going with Antec here too. Don't remember offhand which one.
CPU cooler: Sticking with the one Intel provides for now. I've read that people are overclocking that 6750 to 3.2 and higher on stock cooling. I'll add one if the temps seem too high but an insurance policy can't hurt.
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BaldEagl,
Thanks forthe comments. It's just what I'm looking for. Please elaborate on the x16 2.0. It's something I wasn't aware of.
Also, both these cards are x16 2.0 cards, and in the motherboard you've chosen, you'll only see 1/2 the potential data output. They will work but not at their full potential. In the end, I'd probably switch either the motherboard or the card.
I assumed all PCI exp x 16 were the same. It seems I was about to make a mistake. I tokk a quck look at motherboards on the Newegg site and only a few seem to have PCI exp x 16 2.0. And, of course, they all cost over $200. :lol
Thanks agian.
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BaldEagl,
Thanks forthe comments. It's just what I'm looking for. Please elaborate on the x16 2.0. It's something I wasn't aware of.
I assumed all PCI exp x 16 were the same. It seems I was about to make a mistake. I tokk a quck look at motherboards on the Newegg site and only a few seem to have PCI exp x 16 2.0. And, of course, they all cost over $200. :lol
Thanks agian.
The PCIe x16 2.0 slot doubles the bandwidth of the PCIe x16 slot. These slots are both forward and backward compatible with 1.0 and 2.0 devices (1.0 devices will work in either slot type as will 2.0 devices) but the bandwidth is limited to the lower of the two (slot or device), therefore, the 2.0 card you're considering will only work at 1.0 bandwidth in the motherboard you've chosen. There's a very good article on this at Wikipedia.
The only chipsets currently supporting PCIe x16 2.0 are the Intel X38, the NVIDEA 750i and the NVIDEA 780i. All of these come with two or more PCIe 2.0 slots, supporting either ATI Crossfire (Intel) or NVIDEA SLI (NVIDEA). There are no single slot 2.0 motherboards (yet). There are at least 2 750i motherboards (ASUS and MSI) in the $150 range. The 750i chipset supports 1 card at x16 and a second card at x8 rather than true x16/x16 (not ideal if you were to want to SLI but if your not worried about SLI then these boards get you the 2.0 slot at a reasonable price). I'm not sure about the Intel boards. Go to Newegg and do a power search for these chipsets if you're intent on a 2.0 card.
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I like it Baldegle. I have that same mainboard, the Abit, and it is working out just fine. I also went with the E8400 and have been ecstatic. However, since I purchased it it has risen in price significantly. I paid $211 at Mwave and it is now $260. On NewEgg it's $249. It was originally $229 on NewEgg. Good for you on getting the 4 gig of memory up front. While XP will recognize only 3.5 gig it is still the way to go I believe.
I've said it before, my computer runs so-o-o-o sweet.
Good luck on the build. Remember it's just like legos as long as nothing goes wrong. Just take your time putting it together. It is rewarding.
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It's now coming back to me why, after considering building my own in the past, I always ended up ordering from Dell. :lol
Thanks for the explanation. One of my squadmates (Homeboy) tells me that there is a lot of discussion over whether or not the difference in PCI express stadards has much real world impact since a lot of the potential bandwidth isn't used anyway. Interestingly (or perhaps the better word would be confusingly), the Tom's hardware reviews of the 8800GT and GTS cards were based on testing done on machines with P35 motherboards.
Still, it makes the most sense to me to use a motherboard with PCI express 2.0. Altrnatively I could get a P35 board and a 640MB 8800GTS (They are not described as PCI Express 2.0). And I thought I was finished with my research. :cry
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Looks like the ASUS P5E with X38 chipset at $225 may be the best choice in motherboards. What's another $90 to an addict? :)
The $150 for the ASUS P5N-D with 750i chipset looks attractive but the reviews arn't nearly as good.
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Like I said, what you've chosen will work together and the test results at Toms Hardware on the 8800 GT are impressive (especially if the test was in a PCIe 1.0 slot).
I wish Tom's Hardware would bench one card in both types of slots to see what the actual differences are.
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BaldEagl
hope I didn't step on a toe. Please understand that I'm not arguing. I don't know enough about this stuff to argue. I appreciate your help. I had no idea this issue existed until you posted. I just don't want to spend almost $400 on a motherboard and video card only to find out that I should have spent another $90. .
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hope I didn't step on a toe. Please understand that I'm not arguing.
Nope, you didn't. Sorry if I came across that way. I was simply saying what I was saying. :)
I don't want to scare you though. Just do your research so your comfortable with your decisions. This will be my first build too. I've been researching for 2 1/2 months now and it seems like every day I turn up another important tidbit of information that influences my decisions.
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A larger 7200rpm hard drive out performs the raptor in some instances. I'm not an expert on this either, but I'm in the process of building a pc myself and have researched and asked questions on a couple of different sites. I've been told on a couple of them to not buy the raptor and spend the money saved on a larger 350-500GB drive.
If you are on a budget, then you can also buy a cheaper Creative sound card and buy a seperate game port card. I also need a game port for my ECCI steering wheel and before didn't know that you could buy them as an individual card. Make sure you have a slot for it if you go that route.
Also, the Q9450 should be out very soon if your interested in a quad core. I was told it should be in the $300-$350 range.
Sorry, just noticed that I was commenting on two different poster's setups.
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For what it's worth, here's and excerpt from a Tom’s hardware review of the 8800GT
“Finally, the GeForce 8800GT introduces PCI Express 2.0 support, which will double the bandwidth (moving up to a bi-directional 8 GB/s) with an X38 motherboard. This won't change anything from a gaming point of view, but could be more interesting for workstations, professional software or applications using Nvidia's GPGPU CUDA. It remains, of course, fully compatible with PCI Express 1.0.”
So maybe a PCI express 2.0 card in a motherboatd with the P35 chipset won't result in any loss in peformance for most of us antway. I wish I understood this stuff better. Skuzzy, can you rescue us from this dilema?
I'm now considering spending $90 more on an ASUS P5E with the X38 chipset just incase it is an advantage down the road.
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So maybe a PCI express 2.0 card in a motherboatd with the P35 chipset won't result in any loss in peformance for most of us antway. I wish I understood this stuff better. Skuzzy, can you rescue us from this dilema?
Nice find. It sounds like it won't make a difference. In the future? Well, if/when it does make a difference you could always get a different mb (and by then you'll probably want PCIe 3.0, DDR3 DRAM, etc. anyway). Given that quote at Toms HW, I'd save the $ and go with what you originally wanted.
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Condor,
It is impossible to have the perfect build. What you started with is great. Believe me, If you buy the most up to date anything it will change in a couple of months. I remember feeling like you at one time, being so confused that you throw your hands up. Like I said my system is very similar to your proposed build. I wish you could sit at my desk and try. It is incredible.
I spent around a $1000 for what would cost me $3,000 to purchase and hey that's a winner in my book. I haven't had one problem, not one single problem. And you're getting more memory than I did.
Soo just dive in there.
Good luck on the build
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Condor,
To set your mind at ease I visited the NVIDEA website today. While they tout the 2.0 compatibility of the newer cards, they also state that they are fully compatible with 1.0. Furthermore, there are no footnotes to that statement regarding performance degredation so I think you're good to go.
Sorry to have scared you on this. It was my own mis-understanding (and I thought I had done such a good job of researching all this stuff).
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Love the antec 900 case choice. Its a bottom mount psu. Some reviews have reported cable length problems. I didn't have any. Buy a extra 120mm fan for over the cpu. It doesn't include one.
I have a 10k hard drive, it works good. I like 2 10ks in raid 0. And if you have a extra 7.2 lying around use it as a backup. There is a difference with a 10k over a 7.2. But 7.2s are reliable and solid and cheap.
this site has some hardware stats; http://www.yougamers.com/hardware/stats/3dmark06/alltime/
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This has been a most educational thread. Much thanks to Condor and BaldEagl for hashing out that PCI-e 2.0 business. :rock That is an issue that is important to understand and especially not overreact to.
Getback said it exactly right too that you can't get the perfect build. As soon as you make your purchase you'll find that the price of that video card drops by half or some 3.0 something-or-other comes out and you're behind again. I've always said that you make your best choice and when you submit your shopping cart, you close your eyes, stop researching, and just enjoy the toys! That's pretty tough to do though.
As for the Antec 900, I must confess that when Condor showed it to me for consideration, I liked it so much I bought myself one. I love it. Yes, Alskahawk is right, there is no fan in the side panel but if you use something like a Zalman 9700 cpu cooler (the best cpu cooler made IMHO), you will neither have room for a side fan nor the need. There are so many fans in this case already that I've had to place some books on top of mine because it wants to lift off and fly around the room.
Finally, I really think it's worth getting a Raptor for your system drive. I have run Raid 0 on previous builds and the extra performance is wonderful. I always felt uncomfortable though about the liability of failure. So, I went back to a 7200 rpm Caviar drive after that but on this latest build I decided to give the Raptor (I bought a 75GB one) a try. It really is fantastic. I noticed an immediate difference. To me, it is worth the extra money, especially as a system drive. You can always put a cheap Caviar in as a D: drive to hold all the stuff you download from the I. Again, just MHO.
Great thread boys! :aok
BTW, you can see my rig here (http://snomhf.exofire.net/myComputer.html).
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Sweet case! I just took a look at it. Unfortunately, I already built my comp. But hey, $80 bucks after rebate. You are not going to beat that case.
I like this build threads too. I've been tempted to build a 3rd comp. just for Personal finance. However, since I have built 2 in the last 5 months I have to abstain and put my dough where it really needs to go.
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Newegg.com has 48 hour sale on computer cases. Antec 900 after rebate $59. Probally going to grab another just for a upgrade on my backup computer.
I was able to drop the water cooling off my AMD x2 by switching to the 900. Now runs 35c after many hours of AH.
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Looks like I'm almost there with respect to selection of components. I just ordered an e8400 from NewEgg for $200 (guessing they may sell out fast) so the CPU is set in stone. Here is what my proposed system now looks like (cghanges bold).
Processor - Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 $200
Motherboard - Abit IP35 Pro $135 w rebate I'm now wondering if this is the best choice for the e8400
The others considered were the ASUS P5K-E at $150 and the Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3 at $90. Except for some layout issues Tom's hardware gave the Abit a very good review.
Memory - CORSAIR XMS2 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 – 4GB for $56 total
I know 2GB is probably enough but memory is so cheap right now its almost free
Video EVGA 512-P3-N801-AR GeForce 8800GTs 512MB 256 $240 (Decided the GTS was worth the extra $$$)
Sound - Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer $85
Hard Drive – Western Digital Raptor WD740ADFD 74GB 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache SATA Homeboy convinced me to splurge
PSU – SILVERSTONE ST75F ATX 12V 2.2 & EPS 12V 750W $150
Case – Antec 900 $80 w rebate
Zalman CPU cooler $53
Has anyone had experience with an e8400 in the Abit MOBO? I'm about to push the button on the remainder of the order and would appreciate any additional comments or recommendations, especially on the right MOBO.
Thanks,
Condor
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push the button... push the button... push the button
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:D :o :o :D :D
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Looks like I'm almost there with respect to selection of components. I just ordered an e8400 from NewEgg for $200 (guessing they may sell out fast) so the CPU is set in stone. Here is what my proposed system now looks like (cghanges bold).
Processor - Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 $200
Motherboard - Abit IP35 Pro $135 w rebate I'm now wondering if this is the best choice for the e8400
The others considered were the ASUS P5K-E at $150 and the Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3 at $90. Except for some layout issues Tom's hardware gave the Abit a very good review.
Memory - CORSAIR XMS2 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 – 4GB for $56 total
I know 2GB is probably enough but memory is so cheap right now its almost free
Video EVGA 512-P3-N801-AR GeForce 8800GTs 512MB 256 $240 (Decided the GTS was worth the extra $$$)
Sound - Creative X-Fi XtremeGamer $85
Hard Drive – Western Digital Raptor WD740ADFD 74GB 10,000 RPM 16MB Cache SATA Homeboy convinced me to splurge
PSU – SILVERSTONE ST75F ATX 12V 2.2 & EPS 12V 750W $150
Case – Antec 900 $80 w rebate
Zalman CPU cooler $53
Has anyone had experience with an e8400 in the Abit MOBO? I'm about to push the button on the remainder of the order and would appreciate any additional comments or recommendations, especially on the right MOBO.
Thanks,
Condor
Me, I have the E8400 on the exact same MB. Mighty Sweet. I know I'm estatic about the performance and I don't use a sound card. Good installation instructions too. The one thing is the MB took 4 pins for an LED and my case only had 2 pins or vice versa. Anyway, didn't really need it.
What a great deal on that chip. I saw that today on NewEgg. I paid 211 + shipping and Newegg is giving free shipping on that item. I almost bought another one.
Good luck with the build.