Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Nimrod45 on March 19, 2008, 06:29:08 PM
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I am away and won't be able to play for a while, but am curious as to how bad the under wing gun pods effect the handeling. Some body please throw me a bone. :pray
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Don't know about the gun pods, but my impression of the 39D at full gas:
Takeoff roll the first time is a little surprising as it takes a good bit of right rudder to keep the nose straight. Landing configuration also requires a decent amount of rudder or trim to stay straight on approach. This is a ship that will REALLY benefit from rudder pedals.
Acceleration seems above average. She seems to wind it up fairly well nose-down.
Rate of roll is good at moderate speeds, and greatly assisted with rudder added in the direction of roll. A little sluggish at very low airspeeds, but again the rudder greatly assists. Rudder authority is fairly strong at low and medium speeds. Haven't had a chance to really try it out at the upper end of the speed range to see how it compares with the F4U's.
Her snap-roll is less than remarkable, and she seems to hesitate before kicking over. Being used to the F4U which will snap-roll to the left at the drop of a hat this feels rather unresponsive. The P-39 will NOT snap right. She'll do roughly half a revolution then drops right out of it if you stop control input. To the left she'll continue rolling until recovery, which seems generally quick. She doesn't seem to lose a great deal of altitude in the snap-roll.
Maneuverability isn't mind-blowing but definitely qualifies at the upper end of good. The P-39D will give a LOT of opponents a run for their money in a low-speed turning fight in the weeds. Horizontal turn rate and radius are good at most speeds, and like the F4Us dropping a notch of flaps at the right time will really haul the nose around. She'll also pull through the top of a loop rather smoothly even at relatively low airspeeds with only one or two notches of flaps, and seems to handle relatively well in low and high yo-yos. Some of the guys taking her for a ride in the TA report you need to be really smooth with the controls. I didn't really experience any noticeable problems, but wasn't really getting jerky and ham-fisted with the stick, either.
At low altitudes she doesn't seem to suffer from an appreciable lack of power, though there's no WEP which is especially missed at the top of loops. Rate of climb seems average, maybe a little better. Late war iron should dominate in contests of pure engine muscle, however.
Departure doesn't seem too rough. Stalled her out and hung her on her prop for a few seconds before she finally nosed over, and after she settled from the flopping around when the nose came down recovered fairly easily.
Unable to really get a feel for durability in the TA. I'd prefer to test this in the DA once the map is updated.
Firepower in the 39D is a bit of a concern because of the three drastically different weapons. I only played with the 37mm, which has ballistics, muzzle velocity and rate of fire drastically different from the .50cal and .30cal machine guns. This gun has a lot of drop, even in convergence, so is not going to be an easy weapon to use against maneuvering targets--I had to pull a LOT of lead to get any hits at 200yds with this set as convergence. I suspect it will be of better use in ground attack, with the 20mm as an air-to-air package. The cowl .50s are the "killer" guns once the cannon goes dry. The only thing bad I can say about the Ma Deuce is the 39D only has the two. Also, the ammunition counter for the .50cal is included in the count for the four .30s in the wings, so it's VERY easy to run out of ammunition in the cowl and only be slinging BBs without realizing it. I've never found the light machine gun in any of its incarnations or packages--whether Browning .30cal, .303 or 7.7mm--all that threatening. There's a TON of ammo in the .30s, but it will TAKE a ton to do any appreciable damage with only four of them. Fortunately the .50 and .30cal machine guns are close enough in ballistics that gunnery won't be as much of a chore. I suspect this will be helped further when taking the 20mm over the 37mm, as the 20mm will much more closely match the ballistics and muzzle velocity of the .50s. Ordinance is a single 500lb bomb, so while this would make the 39D an attractive alternative to the dedicated dive-bombers in the Early and Mid arenas, in the LW Mains it won't be much worth taking.
Views vary. The forward view is pretty good, though the sides aren't remarkable due to heavy framing. The dead-six view is ok if you lower the head position. 6-high is quite poor, though can be made serviceable with adjustment of head position.
All in all, she won't get me out of my Corsair any time soon, but I think she's going to surprise a lot of opponents in the classic MA furball.
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The D is pretty much a gigantic POS. No redeeming features. Slow, unmanueverable, accelerates almost as fast as a goon. The 37mm sucks, but the Hizooka only has 60 rounds, so you are better off with it.
The Q isn't as bad. I think it'll see about as much use as the TA-152.
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The D is pretty much a gigantic POS. No redeeming features. Slow, unmanueverable, accelerates almost as fast as a goon. The 37mm sucks, but the Hizooka only has 60 rounds, so you are better off with it.
The Q isn't as bad. I think it'll see about as much use as the TA-152.
Well, you sure as hell don't want to use flaps when fighting in a P-39D... Mind boggling drag. 25 second circles is simply awful. Stay away from the flaps and it's pretty good until you scrub off all of your E. It reminds me of the P-40s, but is actually inferior should you dump flaps. Not a lot of power to play with.
On the other hand, the P-39Q gets around a circle in 17.5 seconds clean, at 154 mph. That's better than the 109F-4, 109G-2, C.202, C.205 and very similar to the Spit16... As I measure it, the P-39Q fits in between the Ki-81 and La-5 in turn radius and rate in clean condition, without gun pods.
I'll do more comprehensive testing over the weekend.
Speed figures for the P-39Q were checked (no gun pods). 329 mph @ SL, 374 mph @ 9.7k (this should be critical altitude for the Q). I managed 380 mph @ 11k and 382 @ 12k. So, speed from sea level to 12k is as good or better than the F6F-5, but I don't understand why the P-39Q adheres to the MIL power speed curve by altitude. It should make its best speed at 9.7k in WEP. However, it isn't a big problem.
My regards,
Widewing
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I generally agree with Widewing, on the Q model. Some things I would like to add tho are a 17K max alt limit. Anything above that and you should be calling the glue factory, 'cuz your beating a dead horse. Performance drops dramatically above this height. Its best performance "butter" zone is ~8-12K. Below 8K I would look to extend to friendly territory, have a wingman with me, or only engage with advantage. Above 12K again I would have a wingman with me or engage with only a significant E advantage. Dives are typical American Iron, It pours on the coal quick and screams like a Banshie. High speed handling is excellent in roll, pitch, and yaw, with no heaviness, even through 500mph. E retention is good, but be especially gentile with the controls as a heavy hand will scrub E like granny going down the highway with the emergency brake on.
That's it for now, see you in the skies.
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Sounds like a P-38 a little bit worse. I'm used to alot of problems and things you should do or not do flying, 47's,38's and 51's, sounds like this has less power to help you out with all that. How should my tactics differ from the planes i already mentioned.
Sounds like the gunnery will be mostly wait till at 200k to use the heavy armament. The 30 cal's don't bother, and the 20's use them sort of like a Spitfire's, with damage taking a little longer to build up.
All in all looks like a BnZ'er, with the ability to get in a close dogfight with the Q and surprise some people. You lose E though your dead and it'll take you all day to get it back. Don't blow all your E and let yourself be a target.
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that 37mm is a pain to use...low velocity low damage low ROF...I put 4 hits in a lanc tail fuselage with no apparent damage...another lanc I put 2 hits between the 3 and 4 engine and 2 hits in the tail with no apparent damage either, all hits came from 6 or low 6. I did put one and a B26 in fire with a single hit between third engine and fuselage when coming from higher (2nd engine for B26). I hit an ar234 in the wing from 6 also, it kept flying. My hits are confirmed 37mm hits as I only fired secondary, the NS37 37mm that uses the Ya9t is way better IMO.
I was very surprised by the turn capabilities of the P39Q, I didn't use gondolas and gave a hard time to spit16's, not to mention you can dive away from them. The diving capabities are amazing, acceleration is a very good and will require some time to adjust =) A stang will go all out to catch you in a dive.
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P-39Q:
Dove on a B-17, a few hits and it went to kingdom come. Attacked a Ju-88 formation and got all 3. I think the 37mm is certainly effective, but we can't expect miracles. Did some merges vs 109s, 190s, P-51s, LAs, N1K2s, ect seemed to hold its own.
It dives very well!!! (550 TAS+) turns not too badly at all, and has a decent speed (328 WEP at S.L.)
Climbs @3000 fpm with WEP.
With a DT you get @40 minutes flying time.
...It was never going to be "uber" (its a 1943 fighter) but its a decent little a/c.
So far I like it.
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looks like the WEP runs for a long time, 15Mins or so. I think I'll be using wep on initial climbout at all times like on the ta152.
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I was surprised with benign stall both accelerated and pulling the nose up and stick back waiting to fall into flat spin. No flat spin but I managed to get into an unrecoverable inverted flatspin. Feels like any a/c with engine in front...
-C+
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Has anyone tried emptying the cannon and 0.5 ammo out of the nose and then spinning it?
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WEP is 5 minutes.
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Stall didn't seem very benign to me, I managed to auger the D in twice and the Q in once by stalling it at slow speed / high AoA.
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Well in a series of fights between myself and Bighorn. (Him in the p39Q )
Slower planes that are not real good turning planes are going to be the p39's main meat.
N1k vs p39 When I was in p39, had no problem getting and staying behind the nik. When bighorn was in p39, I was able to get a kill shot, but he quickly ended up on my 6. Once saddled up of course there was no getting rid of him.
Spit 8 vs p39 I lost once, draw twice when I didn't follow bighorn into his setup and eventually won one.
Spit 16 I lost once and draw once. Has more power but bighorn was able to out turn it easy.
Russian planes are IMO going to be good p39 killers.
Both the la5 and the yak were able to use good energy tactics to defeat the p39's intial turn.
Once bighorn turned a couple of times and blew E the russian birds could go UP and he didn't have the E to follow. At that point roles switch and hunted becomes hunter. Was not hard to roll in behind it and get a solution. If the p39 tries to escape its either unrecoverable stall, or flying into ground time.
Was probably easier in the Yak, but la's gives you so much more ammo.
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WEP is 5 minutes.
Thx
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Well, you sure as hell don't want to use flaps when fighting in a P-39D... Mind boggling drag. 25 second circles is simply awful. Stay away from the flaps and it's pretty good until you scrub off all of your E. It reminds me of the P-40s, but is actually inferior should you dump flaps. Not a lot of power to play with.
On the other hand, the P-39Q gets around a circle in 17.5 seconds clean, at 154 mph. That's better than the 109F-4, 109G-2, C.202, C.205 and very similar to the Spit16... As I measure it, the P-39Q fits in between the Ki-81 and La-5 in turn radius and rate in clean condition, without gun pods.
I'll do more comprehensive testing over the weekend.
Speed figures for the P-39Q were checked (no gun pods). 329 mph @ SL, 374 mph @ 9.7k (this should be critical altitude for the Q). I managed 380 mph @ 11k and 382 @ 12k. So, speed from sea level to 12k is as good or better than the F6F-5, but I don't understand why the P-39Q adheres to the MIL power speed curve by altitude. It should make its best speed at 9.7k in WEP. However, it isn't a big problem.
My regards,
Widewing
Whats with the huge difference in performance between the two models? There is only a 50 hp difference between them, but the P-39D is an absolute dog. Even with wingpods I found the P-39Q to be very much superior. Anyone tried fighting the two against eachother?
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The biggest issue I found with it last night was it's terrible roll rate at low speed particularly in a rolling scissors. As Widewing indicated, flaps out kills your speed incredibly fast so getting in a scissors fight with someone who knows how to execute it will leave you wallowing. It seemed decent other then that in turning capabilities. Flaps up I was having no real trouble with your average spit/n1k2. Dodging B&Z attacks requires you to have more E then many other planes in order to roll quickly out of the way. Rudder assisted rolls definately help and it doesn't greatly increase instability.
Did anyone else feel like the P39 required a lot more stick input to get to the edge? Feels like the elevator authority is a bit weak, I wasn't having trouble reaching the buffet or stalling out right but it required a lot more pull then is common with other planes I fly regularly.
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There has been entirely too much poorly researched quotes ala the P-39 and spins, imho. Boyd Wagner and Charles King, both USAAF aces, said quite a bit re: the P-39, and neither stated that it spun any worse than other fighters of the time.
Personally, I think that some early, inexperienced, USAAC pilots who tried to "dogfight" with the P-39 vs the Japanese, spun it, and it started getting a bad rep with some of them. Many of the early P-39 pilots had few hrs in it before going to the SW Pacific, which excacerbated the problem.
The Russians also seemed to think it was a very manueverable fighter at low level, and it was a very popular fighter in the VVS from 1942-45. Few of the Russian pilots seem to talk about its "spinning" any more than a LA-5, or a Yak-9 series.
Can you spin it? absolutley you can. Can you stall it? yes.
P-39Q vs P-39D. The P-39Q was rated at a higher manifold pressure, it was more than just 50 h.p.
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Indeed, you need to pull the stick a lot to get a good turn rate. Cutting power doesn't help much to turn tighter at high speed.
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"There has been entirely too much poorly researched quotes ala the P-39 and spins, imho. Boyd Wagner and Charles King, both USAAF aces, said quite a bit re: the P-39, and neither stated that it spun any worse than other fighters of the time."
Yet there are anecdotes telling otherwise + aerodynamic prerequisites and special weight distribution to support that it may have been more prone for flat spins than more "conventional" aircraft.
What do you mean poorly researched, BTW?
-C+
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After playing around with my squad last night (combination of gunnery practice and just plain tooling around) F4Us should completely dominate the P-39D in most fights.
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"There has been entirely too much poorly researched quotes ala the P-39 and spins, imho. Boyd Wagner and Charles King, both USAAF aces, said quite a bit re: the P-39, and neither stated that it spun any worse than other fighters of the time."
Yet there are anecdotes telling otherwise + aerodynamic prerequisites and special weight distribution to support that it may have been more prone for flat spins than more "conventional" aircraft.
What do you mean poorly researched, BTW?
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I agree. The plane could not be flown without ammo in the nose guns. Ballast had to be added before you could take off.
I'd like to see where HTC got their info that the P-39Q should out-turn spitfires, 109s, n1k2s, and a host of the tightest-turning planes in the game...
:noid
I was expecting it to turn okay, but being in the top tier of turn planes? Already they're saying the 39D is going to give a6ms the fits in FSO because of its handling and turning, and this just wasn't historically the case.
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I was expecting it to turn okay, but being in the top tier of turn planes? Already they're saying the 39D is going to give a6ms the fits in FSO because of its handling and turning, and this just wasn't historically the case.
I'd want to see some real testing numbers before going that far. It certainly didn't feel like it was turning like a Spit5 or a Huri. The stability at low speeds I think is the main component at being able to turn with spits and niki's, which most of the time are not pilotted by the top tier sticks. I would be surprised if its flaps up turn radius is equal or better then say a Spit9.
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Same here.
I didn't really run it through the wringer. I flew a couple of sorties with the D (got 4 assists and 1 kill *sigh*), and a lot of aiming/fun/screwingaround offline, but it didn't seem as manuverable as some have been saying.
Turning with n1k2s and spixteens?
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I did turn with 16's on the deck for a while, until I had no E. Then the P39 turned into a flapless P47 :P
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Well not everyone fly's slow speed as well as Bighorn either Krusty. :)
Same here.
I didn't really run it through the wringer. I flew a couple of sorties with the D (got 4 assists and 1 kill *sigh*), and a lot of aiming/fun/screwingaround offline, but it didn't seem as manuverable as some have been saying.
Turning with n1k2s and spixteens?
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After playing around with my squad last night (combination of gunnery practice and just plain tooling around) F4Us should completely dominate the P-39D in most fights.
You say that like the F4U's won't completely dominate the cast majority of the planeset in most fights.
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You say that like the F4U's won't completely dominate the cast majority of the planeset in most fights.
Agreed, the f4u's all fly like butter fly's with full flaps down, for about a week i did not even use the hook while landing on the carrier.
Beating a p39 who's slow and with flaps that HURT its turn, you won, duh.
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It reminds me of the P-40s, but is actually inferior should you dump flaps. Not a lot of power to play with.
I'm sure you know the quip about the P-400.
A P-40 with a Zero on its tail.
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I'm not just talking about flaps down, but in the mid to upper speed range, as well.
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Whats with the huge difference in performance between the two models? There is only a 50 hp difference between them, but the P-39D is an absolute dog. Even with wingpods I found the P-39Q to be very much superior. Anyone tried fighting the two against eachother?
The horsepower gap is much bigger than 50 hp.
P-39D: 1,150 hp
P-39Q: 1,420 hp
My regards,
Widewing
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I agree. The plane could not be flown without ammo in the nose guns. Ballast had to be added before you could take off.
I'd like to see where HTC got their info that the P-39Q should out-turn spitfires, 109s, n1k2s, and a host of the tightest-turning planes in the game...
:noid
I was expecting it to turn okay, but being in the top tier of turn planes? Already they're saying the 39D is going to give a6ms the fits in FSO because of its handling and turning, and this just wasn't historically the case.
Well, the P-39Q has the wing loading and power loading to give uber aircraft a very hard time. :rock
P-39D's can run away from A6M2s with ease. Then they can reverse and HO the snot out of them..... Worked for me last night... several times. :devil :huh
My regards,
Widewing
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HO dweeb! :lol
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HO dweeb! :lol
My favorite tactic in the 39 :devil :rock
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If somebody wants to show how HTC is somehow in error re: the P-39s wingloading, well, fire away.
...I note with some interest I have seen nothing posted by the naysayers past generalities and quasi-"hysterics".
From using it in the MA I didn't notice it was anything unnaturally uber?, its just an "adequate" fighter, if flown aggressively to its strengths.
What did you seriously think, it was going to manuever like a bomb laden B-25?
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P-400s were used by American pilots in North Africa, mainly for ground attack. Because they had no turbosuperchargers, they were handily outperformed by the 109s and 190s, at higher altitudes.
However, any Luftwaffe fighter jock foolish enough to tangle with them at low-altitudes was in for a shock, for the P-400 could outmaneuver both enemy fighter types. Several American pilots, when jumped at low level by 190s, simply reefed their mounts into a tight turn, and spun in their opponents.
If jumped by enemy pilots with an altitude advantage the P-400s were almost helpless, if the enemy employed boom-n-zoom tactics. One flight of 15 American fighters was jumped at low-level and lost nine of their number. The five that survived, simply firewalled their P-400s and left the German fighters behind, outracing them on the deck.
Regards, Shuckins
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I've been having multiple CTD with the new patch so I dont have as much time in the bird as I'd like but so far it appears to be exactly what I'd expected (have only flown the Q so far). I normally top it out at 12K and then take it as it comes. While it can "flat turn" suprisingly well its strength is in being flown on the "X". Very easy plane to force overshoots on and suprisingly good in the zoom (at lower alts) at forcing the con off the vertical. If you can force a bogie to flat turn at moderate speed the 39 seems to eat up just about everything. I've closed on everything from a hurricane to a Ki-84 to various spits, F6F, Nikki etc with no problem at all and so far nothing thats started turning has been able to extend from the 39. Most of the time circumstances dictate that you refuse a true stall fight in the weeds but the few times I've forced that end game I've come out ok....its certianly more then a match for the average spitXVI or spitVIII driver.
At the same time once you're forced (or choose) to get off the X and convert to more of a pure angles fight the gerbals bleed out pretty quickly and the 39 has none of the last gasp surivability that the hog does or the raw ability to spiral climb out that the spits and 109s do.
The biggest issue I see is the poor ballistics and occasional survivability that a con has. I've had 2 kills so far where I popped a con with a 37mm to have him continue with no damage but got the kill much later when someone else popped a seemlingly pristine plane to get an assist. I've also gone "all in" to set up a 100 yd shot a couple of times and missed from point blank range and had to run like a scalded dog as a result.
So far to me its seems like a very good "2-3 kills and home" kind of ride with alot of potential for mayham. Good enough to kill any plane in the game IMO IF you can hit with the 37mm...certainly is a good low alt E/angles to E fighter that will confound the average pilot pretty regularly...think its a great nikki/pony killer for sure...