Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Valkyrie on March 21, 2008, 11:05:06 PM
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Who's idea was it that the IJN CV's be placed only 25 miles from thier target. This was ridiculas. I enjoy FSO but there isn't any way in hell I play to take a B-25 to 9k only to die to 100 zeros, wasting, wasting 50 minutes of my life. The long flights of frame 1 where you actually had to be a pilot and manage your power and prop settings were interesting, this BS was a complete waste of time. BTW where are the B-17's which were here. Where are the B-26's which were untilized here in thier largest numbers. Dieing for a bunch of zeros climbing up from below for uncontested shots doing everything we could do to stop them is BS. I don't show up on Friday night to provide target practice.
Fix this for frame 3, cause tonight was a F****** joke.
UNF BTW really really nice job on the escort. Diving on 1 or 2 B5n's and leaving us to the dogs was a really really bright move. Hope your score was high enough tonight it cost 5th AF.
Vlkyrie1
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Things happen in a frame to cause a reaction to any given situation.
If you want Flawless and Scripted, watch the Discovery Channel. Otherwise, deal with the situations that arise. That is a Far Far better judge of what a person is made of.
Not one single time did any plan ever play out exactly as they planners expected. The winners Adapted, and dealt with it.
Fix this for frame 3
There are some things the event designers cannot fix.
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Ironically, My very first thought on takeoff was "not too far to the action." I liked it.
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Out of town but I do have internet. The CVs .. all of them were supposed to be over 50 miles away from their targets. Actually should have been neer 75 miles according to the starting position I had in the maps for the IJN. Will look into things later.
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just an FYI,icon was set to 6k,thought it was suppose to be 3k.
appoligize if I'm wrong.
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Valkyrie,
I don't mind some venting of frustration, but you are pushing the limit, I hope you are done now.
I don't think CV's were only 25 miles from target, maybe just closer than you wanted them to be. Sorry your escort let you down, but that is not a design problem.
If you have more to say....... count to ten first.
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just an FYI,icon was set to 6k,thought it was suppose to be 3k.
appoligize if I'm wrong.
Yes the wrong setting was used, which was my fault, we will fix that for frame 3.
Fortunately that affects both sides the same.
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I'll take care of this in-house...
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After telling my squadmates that the Icons would only show at 3k, they then saw a 5k Zero!
:)
I then told them the CM's made a mistake and it would be fixed for the next frame. :)
W000000tttt!!!!!!!!!!!!!
428 Pilots this frame?
That's more than last time!
Hell my squad was full, thanks to SK's overflow pilot coming to us! <S> DHawk! I remember you from BoB06. (Has it really been that long?)
FSO really is more than an event, it's an EXPERIENCE!
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Improvise, adapt, overcome! If you saw they were to close you could have taken off and climbed in the opposite direction then turned back to the target, therefore giving you the altitude you wanted. I don't know how many times our flight leader or CIC has to change original orders during the course of the FSO due to some small glitch in the setup. Funny thing is i ran right under your bombers as i was hugging the deck to get back to cv because i was out of ammo. I wondered to myself at the time "what are they doing so low?" :huh We also had lots of inflight comments when our cv's got hit so early in the game but it didn't change our mission.
AKsleepy
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:aok Nice flying along side your squad Kermit
Jammerz and I debated on the number we should pick for our first FSO. We received minimal response from the squad so we chose the 4-6 pilot range. Little did we realize that once word got out it would get so popular that we were giving folks away! :lol
SkJohn flew a B25, Dhawk flew F4f, and we had one show up after we launched.
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Managing your route is an equally important implied task. Maybe a little inward reflection is in order. IMHO. The frame was challenging; demanding thought and planning. Remember, tracers work both ways!
Great event.
Hunter
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<SALUTE> axis!
The unforgiven were escorts for the 5th. Was all very quiet, scouts found the boats and NO other cons. As we reached sector 10/11 I believe we came in contact with about 15 zekes and engaged them hoping to keep them busy while the big boys extended past this melee. It wasn't going good for the UF but the bombers had made it past our fight, I thought they may be clear to target. At 5.5 K vis of bombers I saw another 20 or so zekes diving out of the clouds----------> very sneaky < some of us broke off to try and catch the bombers but P40 just not fast enough, I had a front row seat watching them get mauled :cry. The rest of the frame was scouting for a cv in 8/11 sector for another squad attack, avoiding uber quantities of 10-15K zekes friggin everywhere! That group of bombers was mauled before target also! tried to engage a couple zekes here and there but 2 or 3 would show up shortly there after :( very difficult frame for us, we didn't plan well either! Anyway EXCELLENT planning and execution axis! at least in our sector !! <S>
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Managing your route is an equally important implied task. Maybe a little inward reflection is in order. IMHO. The frame was challenging; demanding thought and planning. Remember, tracers work both ways!
Great event.
Hunter
Exactly, I believe our squad was their escort but Im' not 100%. We were high and above the B25's to cover them when we ran into a group of 20 enemy cons at co alt, the B25's knew we engaged the cons. We had plenty of time, their bomber group could have went off target and regrouped with us once it was safe to do so. Instead they decided to continue to the target while their escort was engaged.
As escort we had 2 choices.. engage the co alt A6m's or run away from them. If we would have run away from them, it also would have also left the B25's with no escort and a bunch of A6m's near the B25's. I didn't see a single B5N in the group of cons I only saw A6M's. So far as we knew those were cons there to defend the CV's.
If we would have flown past them they could have followed us and attacked the B25's. If we ignored them, would they have flown past us at co alt, knowing we were likely otw to sink their CV? I highly doubt it, I know if I was lead on the other side, I would have ordered an attack to defend the fleet.
The end result is the bomber group was able to sink the CV, even without escort all the way to the target. The bomber group lost some planes but tis is war, pilots were expendable in ww2 the objective was to destroy the targets.
Best anyone can expect is to learn from things that happen. Maybe next time it's best to set regroup points. If your escort has to engage enemy cons the bombers should run off to a predetermined safe spot before continuing on to the target.
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double post
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I didn't plan this one. I showed up and died and I am not very happy. I think the B-25 vs A6m2 is a mismatch and we didn't have any chance. All I want is a fighting chance and last night sure as hell was not one. End of rant. At least over Europe you have a decent airplane and a chance to live. Out here if you fly the B-25 your going to die period. You might just as well crash the plane on takeoff after t+30 and go to the ma.
Vlkyrie1
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I didn't plan it either Val. Nor did any of the UNFORGIVEN. As Shreck pointed out, they bounced your initial attackers. The P40B is not much of a match for Zekes with Alt. I was out, on the deck, finding your targets. We managed to find them but got bum rushed soon after. Without my wingman and I, the 5th AF may not have even seen a boat this frame. I hope at least some found the target and scored a few hits. I apologize that the UNFORGIVEN could not have helped out more.
<S>
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I apologize to UNF, I just hate dieing especially after flying around for 50 min briefing for 40min, and not being able to make other plans for nothing. And then even if the escort had been better it wouldn't have changed the result.
<S>
Vlkyrie1
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Valkyrie --
One thing about FSO's took me a little time to get used to. Although a lot of people think about "winning" in the MA, or even the less frequent scenarios, in FSO's the emphasis is more on the experience, the immersion, and the people. To be honest, 90% of the time after a 3-frame FSO I have no idea who "won." For what it's worth, I flew a B25C, got to drop my bombs as a horde of zekes jumped our formation over their base, and promptly died. (I didn't bail, and enjoyed watching how stinking many zekes made passes on my twisting fuselage trying to steal someone else's kill!)
Although things are usually balanced, some frames may swing very heavily toward one side or another thanks to mismatches, planning defects, or imperfect execution. In our squad, if we have a bad outcome we just go to the MA after we exit FSO, and blow stuff up in there. Also, unlike the MA, dying in here usually doesn't mean you messed soemthing up -- so relax and remember that most times things swing right back your way next frame.
And if they don't, remember this: As one of my squaddies puts it -- "some nights you're the bird, and some nights you're the statue."
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Understand the frustration.......
But things sometimes look a certain way from the way events tend to work also.
The B5N's are solely dependant on their escorts to accomplish their target hit, they seem to be equal with the 25's in this regard. As the fighter matchup, the zeke does outmanuveur the 40, but had many cases the 40's just outran the zekes and came back with slashing passes. In this frame, the ones that got hit by us were the ones that either decided to turn fight the zekes or got caught lower allowing us to dive with speed and E. Could have went either way depending on the initial engagement and the circumstances in the beginning of the engagement.
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Here ya go...
(http://ltstexasred.com/Cheese/cheshirecheese.jpg)
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Well the 79th Fighter Group was at sector 8/11. The CV radar got destroyed and hits where made on the CV guns and the deck. But the CV did not go down.
Just to bad for the allies, we were just was doing our what they wanted in our orders. To protect the CV. And that is what we did. Yes we did do some air patrols. And yes the CV was covered at all times.
We would like to thank the other squadrons - (FATE, Arabian Knights, 880 Sqn, & 325th) for helping too on there return flight to the CV.
I think on our CV we where also missing one squadron for CV protection and air cover. So we did our job to the full extent. Allot of us didn't make it back either. Air - Sea Rescue was sent out for us also.
A nice touch of would be to enabling the CV guns for down pilots. Just open them up when the air battle begins.
But we still had a good time over all.
Thanks for letting us enjoy this FSO as the 79th FG. - <S> GGhost :salute
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B5n and other planes that suck get second lives
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Only plane that gets a second life in this event is the B5N2.
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< :salute> GGHost. We had fun. I will say I was put in charge of turning the cv. I rarely do this in the MA and I was multi-tasking trying to get it done right in the beginning. I think I may have caused the deaths of 1 or 2 pilots in the turning of the cv early in the frame, and for that I apologize. I give credit to the defenders on saving the cv from any more damage. We flashed a couple more times in the frame, but you guys kept anything from getting close. WTG! :salute
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I had an observation (not a complaint at all) I was thinking about the p40s. I think there real strength is the ability to dive. Learned that today when 50cals shot me down in my diving p47. You know with the low cloud cover and fog that really favors the zero and takes away a major advantage of the p40. Had these thoughts while watching Dogfights on the History Channel. (but you guys probably already knew that)
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I disagree, Getback. Even with the cloud cover there's more than enough air underneath for the P-40s to get out of dodge. On one or two occasions in Frame 2 I still had to back off when the opponent I was chasing (P-40s and F4Fs) went nose down or risk ripping my plane apart despite the low operating altitude.
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I disagree, Getback. Even with the cloud cover there's more than enough air underneath for the P-40s to get out of dodge. On one or two occasions in Frame 2 I still had to back off when the opponent I was chasing (P-40s and F4Fs) went nose down or risk ripping my plane apart despite the low operating altitude.
Ah rgr, you may be right. I had to back off while chasing an f4f but that was through the clouds. Didn't have that opportunity below the clouds. That's good info. I'll use that to my advantage.
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How many pilots for the frame? FSO is one helluva happening party, it sounds. I may hafta invest my Fridays (while I have them). And 50 minutes wasted a week? I "waste" more than that dying while typing text or doing doughnuts on the field with AH buddies nearby asking for more songs on vox from Elvis (aka me). At least I'm pretty sure the were asking for more. :t
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Hi Arlo!
I think we topped 420 for the last frame. Decent turnout, I think you'll like the events.
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428 Pilots to be exact. 199 American in B25Cs, P39Ds, P40Bs, and F4F-4s and 229 Japanese in A6M2s, B5N2s, and D3A1s.
Third frame is going to introduce a very limited number of Ki61s and P38s into the event. Also after some thought going to introduce a small number of JU88s to simulate Betties (which were used in the Aleutians).
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Well hello Arlo :salute It's about time you tried this event :)
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How many pilots for the frame? FSO is one helluva happening party, it sounds. I may hafta invest my Fridays (while I have them). And 50 minutes wasted a week? I "waste" more than that dying while typing text or doing doughnuts on the field with AH buddies nearby asking for more songs on vox from Elvis (aka me). At least I'm pretty sure the were asking for more. :t
Yep, it's pretty much chaos and mayhem. You know, the reason you started playing AH. :rofl
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Here ya go...
(http://ltstexasred.com/Cheese/cheshirecheese.jpg)
sheesh, you would post this... you werent looking at it from our side were you?? This is our second trip in and the third group of enemy encountered on that sortie.
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff44/jappa52/2008-03-22FSO.jpg)
This is NOT a whine btw, just saying I understand what he is feeling. We found Frame 2 to be very challenging and the 367th enjoyed the expericance. Our escorts fought their hearts out but there was only so much they could do. <S>
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I have gone over the logs and orders. The allies attacking C76 just happened to run into a perfect storm. By this I mean the following:
- You had to deal the assigned defenders to C76
- C51 (the CV) was at sunk 22:36:49, this resulted in the planes assigned to C51 shifting to C76 to rearm and refuel. Meaning that you had to deal with C51s cap fighters also plus the returning fighter escort of the strike conducted from C51.
- Then you had 12 B5N2s (31st Figther Group) also up their second lives (11 out of 12 were killed, 1 rtb and then upped later) at C76 between 22:42:26 and 22:42:43.
The allied attack seemed to come in around 22:46:49. So basically 10 minutes before C51 went down after a fight there. So some of its cap shifted to C76. Then the strike conducted out of C76 were killed and reupped at C76 at 4 minutes before the allied strike found C76. Plus you had the normally assigned defenders at C76.
As I said the perfect storm caught the allies at C76 but it was all do to game play and do to battlefield decisions. If the C51 planes had not shifted to C76 do to their CV being sunk you would have had less defenders. If they B5N2s out of C76 had survived their strike (1 did and landed at C76 at 22:53:53) they would have come in later after your strike or you would have caught them in the air as B5N2s.
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Your way over due Arlo.
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To restate from a previous post and add on to ghostdancer's, during your second strike on the carrier further west (can't remember which TG off hand) your formation intruded on C76's dar circle before you all turned to the West for runs on the other carrier. This pulled the 76 defenders in to the fight as we didn't know yet you were going to be heading for the other CV until after the fight essentially already began (we'd just chased off/downed another NOE P-40 scout). So while we hit you from the rear, the defenders assigned to your ACTUAL target sandwiched you from the other direction.
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My wingman and I orbited about 5-8 miles NORTH of C-76 (within visual range of TF) in our NOE P40B's relaying position of the group and direction. We were going to head east and away but figured we would pull the CAP to the north and away from our incoming bomber group. This worked for a while as we kept about 8 of you busy for about 10 minutes or so. First two, then four then "Holy Crap!" Was a great fight for the few minutes it was 2 vs 2. Then we got ram-rodded. :D
:aok
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Was that at the beginning of the frame? If so that might have been VMF-251 Blue Flight you tangled with in the 2v2, as they were patrolling the northern part of the sector.
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It was RMrider (my son) and 10thmd, the two scouts dispached from the high cap to run the enemy scouts off. Rider ended up with both scalps. It was just the early sprinkle of the perfect storm.
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I will add this, as I was in Kommand of the defense of TG76. Luck and battle field circumstance played into our victory there, particularly in the second hour, as Sax, points out, the second wavers found themselves engaged by two seperate defensive forces. TG76 and TG77 flights caught them in the middle. However the largest factor in our success was numbers and concentration of competant defenders. All three units in the defensive flight, JG11, the 31st and 251st, arrived in full strength for the event. I had 30 zero's at my disposal and only a single carrier group to defend. It was nice.
Give me that assignment anytime.
<S> 68th, for another excellant overall battle plan.
This event has been a slugfest, and a whole lot of fun.
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sheesh, you would post this... you werent looking at it from our side were you?? This is our second trip in and the third group of enemy encountered on that sortie.
(http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff44/jappa52/2008-03-22FSO.jpg)
This is NOT a whine btw, just saying I understand what he is feeling. We found Frame 2 to be very challenging and the 367th enjoyed the expericance. Our escorts fought their hearts out but there was only so much they could do. <S>
Yeah buddy and don't you forget it :D Apparently not... I was Axis ;)
The =FIGHTING-31=, VMF-251 & JG11 set up the perfect C.A.P. w/ 3 rings of kickass squads & I am pleased w/ the results.
I have gone over the logs and orders. The allies attacking C76 just happened to run into a perfect storm. By this I mean the following:
- You had to deal the assigned defenders to C76
- C51 (the CV) was at sunk 22:36:49, this resulted in the planes assigned to C51 shifting to C76 to rearm and refuel. Meaning that you had to deal with C51s cap fighters also plus the returning fighter escort of the strike conducted from C51.
- Then you had 12 B5N2s (31st Figther Group) also up their second lives (11 out of 12 were killed, 1 rtb and then upped later) at C76 between 22:42:26 and 22:42:43.
The allied attack seemed to come in around 22:46:49. So basically 10 minutes before C51 went down after a fight there. So some of its cap shifted to C76. Then the strike conducted out of C76 were killed and reupped at C76 at 4 minutes before the allied strike found C76. Plus you had the normally assigned defenders at C76.
As I said the perfect storm caught the allies at C76 but it was all do to game play and do to battlefield decisions. If the C51 planes had not shifted to C76 do to their CV being sunk you would have had less defenders. If they B5N2s out of C76 had survived their strike (1 did and landed at C76 at 22:53:53) they would have come in later after your strike or you would have caught them in the air as B5N2s.
Indeed!