Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Anaxogoras on March 24, 2008, 12:55:34 PM
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I like ENY. I think it's fine that the best aircraft are withheld when one side has a big numerical advantage. It's good for fair play, and you can always switch sides to fly for another chess piece.
On the other hand, how many of you believe that the ENY values for individual aircraft are consistent? How many believe that the values are based on some kind of data or evidence and achieved with a formula?
I don't believe either. So my modest proposal is that if the ENY values for aircraft are inconsistent and not empirical, then they need to be made consistent and based on some kind of data. What that data is should be a separate discussion. Making these changes would better protect the ENY system from charges of unfairness and arbitrariness. It would be good for AH and also good for gameplay.
This is not a radical proposal. This is not a whine. Please keep your knee jerk reactions in check and think about it for a second. Thank you. :salute
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While most of us would agree that the one or other ENY value is not quite right, it's almost impossible to assign a purely objective ENY value based on hard data alone. How do you weight the various strengths? Is better turning more important than better speed?
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Personally I hate the eny thing.It got so bad at one point that the red guys were flying 163's at fire sale prices and the set we had was at 5 for awhile.I mean when your option is to fly a P 40 against 163's....I know a bit overstated.....I would rather see the map just reset and start on the next one. I understand the concept for it but as it is I think it just draws out the inevitable.
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I've taken a go at this in the past, and you sure can't use stats to try to determine which aircraft should be weighted, and how. Case in point - F4U-1A and F4U-1D. You'd be hard pressed to find 2 aircraft in the sim with more similar performance as fighters, and yet the stats for each is dramatically different. Why? Because of the way that they are flown, and who flies them.
Likewise, look at the stats for a P51D, and a KI61. The P51-D shows a K/d of about 1.00, and the KI61 1.52 currently. Is this because the P51 is only 2/3's as good as the KI61? No, it just means that everyone flies the P51, and only a handful (of masochists) who are better than average pilots fly the KI.
<S>
Grue
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I've taken a go at this in the past, and you sure can't use stats to try to determine which aircraft should be weighted, and how. Case in point - F4U-1A and F4U-1D. You'd be hard pressed to find 2 aircraft in the sim with more similar performance as fighters, and yet the stats for each is dramatically different. Why? Because of the way that they are flown, and who flies them.
Because the D was later model and was able to carry more ordinance and came standard with the 8W water cooling power plant. :aok
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It got so bad at one point that the red guys were flying 163's at fire sale prices and the set we had was at 5 for awhile.I mean when your option is to fly a P 40 against 163's
Why didn't you just change countries?
Easy fix...
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Likewise, look at the stats for a P51D, and a KI61. The P51-D shows a K/d of about 1.00, and the KI61 1.52 currently. Is this because the P51 is only 2/3's as good as the KI61? No, it just means that everyone flies the P51, and only a handful (of masochists) who are better than average pilots fly the KI.
<S>
Grue
The Ki-61 is a POS!!! Ask anyone!!! It needs to be updated though. :devil
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Personally I hate the eny thing.It got so bad at one point that the red guys were flying 163's at fire sale prices and the set we had was at 5 for awhile.I mean when your option is to fly a P 40 against 163's....I know a bit overstated.....I would rather see the map just reset and start on the next one. I understand the concept for it but as it is I think it just draws out the inevitable.
Flying a P40 against a 163 is your choice, or switch sides.
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Ok, let's stay on topic here.
Is it really so hard to come up with objective criteria? What I would start with would be:
1. speed at a couple different altitudes, with more weight on lower altitudes because of arena play.
2. firepower/balisitics
3. sustained turn rate
4. ease of control at high speeds or low speeds
5. visibility from cockpit
6. durability
That's a start, at least.
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Ok, let's stay on topic here.
Is it really so hard to come up with objective criteria? What I would start with would be:
1. speed at a couple different altitudes, with more weight on lower altitudes because of arena play.
2. firepower/balisitics
3. sustained turn rate
4. ease of control at high speeds or low speeds
5. visibility from cockpit
6. durability
That's a start, at least.
But still, HOW exactly you would weight them? Is a massive amount of ords more important than top speed?
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Deciding which is the most important admittedly does add a subjective component into the process of ENY evaluation. Still, that's no reason to give up, because we can at least come to some agreement as to how to begin. I think we all agree that speed, firepower and turn deserve first rank. Second rank might be climbrate, low/high speed handling and durability; cockpit visibility third. This is just an example of how we could begin to weight the different abilities of fighter aircraft. I'm not sure how much weight I would place on ordinance. What do you think? HTC sometimes places a lot of weight on ordinance, e.g. P47N, and sometimes an aircraft that carries little or no ordinance can also have an ENY of 5.
Regardless, implementing an imperfect system for giving objective ENY values to aircraft is better than mere guessing and arbitrary decision, which is what we seem to have now.
The hard part is actually creating a formula and a system for assigning numerical values to different things like speed, firepower, ordinance capacity, etc. One thing I can think of would be to simply assign different classes of rank for different maximum speeds. Anything over 400mph on the deck is 1; between 375 and 400mph is 2; between 350 and 375 is 3, etc. These ranks can take the place of variables in a formula.
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hehe "A Modest Proposal." Good thing this is a different one 8)
donkey
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Ok, let's stay on topic here.
Is it really so hard to come up with objective criteria? What I would start with would be:
1. speed at a couple different altitudes, with more weight on lower altitudes because of arena play.
2. firepower/balisitics
3. sustained turn rate
4. ease of control at high speeds or low speeds
5. visibility from cockpit
6. durability
That's a start, at least.
Just use number of spawns for a model from last tour - make ENY proportional to its fraction of the total spawns. I'm sure HTC has no problem getting this data. As a bonus it would encourage you to fly the less flown planes and if one type is hardly flown, its ENY will skyrocket making it a perk harvester (not that we can really use them on anything). This is also a self regulating method since if, say, Spit16 gets locked regularly for one country, it will reduce its number of spawns and raise its ENY for next tour.
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I've always thought a truly 'floating' ENY would be best.
It makes very little sense to me the way it is set up now. It was changed at some point, it seems as thought they compressed the values from a range of 5-40 to 5-60 or so.
There really is no good way to objectively say "X is better than Y" unless you have a case where X is better at all things. Take the 109G-6 and the G-2 - you give up a touch of manueverability and a bit of acceleration / top speed in exchange for 2 13mm MGs instead of 2 7.9mm. Which one is better? Well, against a noob the G-6 is, you can kill him faster.
I think the limits are ok, but I guess the mechanics of setting up a true floating system might be a little frustrating. If nothing else it'd point out how lopsided the arena is for most things. Think 5 ENY for Panzer IV, and 40 for T-34. 5 ENY for P-51D, La-7, Spit 16, N1K2, maybe 10 ENY for Tiffie, the other Spits... 20-40 for everything else.
I wonder if they tied score to ENY values if that would increase the 'diversity' of the arena? Kill a plane with 5 ENY in a plane with 20, get 4 times the points as well as 4 perks. Probably wouldn't change the gameplay much, might even make it worse.
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I wonder if they tied score to ENY values if that would increase the 'diversity' of the arena? Kill a plane with 5 ENY in a plane with 20, get 4 times the points as well as 4 perks. Probably wouldn't change the gameplay much, might even make it worse.
The idea is not that bad at all, though im pretty much convinced nowadays that actually much less players pay attention to their score points as universally assumed.
Maybe a more telling new category.. instead of pure kills/hour make it perks/hour - if you care about your rank you would have to stay away from ENY 5 planes ;)
But of course we would still see 2-3 planes being used by the majority, the ones that the payers do believe is the perfect mix between ENY and performance.
The threads would maybe just change to "All that hoing n00b A5'S or A8's ;)
But again, maybe less people actually play with any rank consderations than it's being thought...
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But if ENY was a floating value, those planes would constantly be in flux.
I honestly don't think there is much that can or should be done about the mix of planes. Really the only thing that would have an impact of gameplay would be HTC responding to the playerbase's desire to shift the focus of the game away from aerial combat more toward the landgrab aspect by adding a larger variety of GVs. With the exception of the Yak-3, we already have every plane that saw any sort of action in WW2 but also has the performance to warrant being used in place of the current big 4. For that matter, I can't think of a plane other than the Yak that would even crack the top 10.
There are still a lot of holes to fill as far as early / mid-war planeset for the Soviet and Japanese planeset, but the only really large gap left is the GVs. Still missing all kinds of things that would see use, and some that might even change the way the game is played.
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Is kills per hour the main factor for scoring? If so, that's myopic because many of the players who have the most kills per hour land less than half their sorties. :rolleyes:
I also like the idea of just making ENY values tied to frequency of use. Some people complain that this might make any popular aircraft perked or left with a low ENY, even if it's not a dominating aircraft, but that's never going to happen in practice.
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While most of us would agree that the one or other ENY value is not quite right, it's almost impossible to assign a purely objective ENY value based on hard data alone. How do you weight the various strengths? Is better turning more important than better speed?
lusche brings up a good point. in a spit 14 per say it is faster and BnZ's better than the 9, but the spit 16 TnB's and has good speed. on the other hand, the 190's r more of a BnZ plane than turning. so if u base the ENY of a 190 against how many kills the had on Spitfires, how many 190's could out turn a spitfire? another example, bombers and 262's. 262's r fast and have 4 30MM and a bomber, even though it has all the guns, would barly ever get a shot at a 262 due to its speed. so if you base a bomber's ENY based on how many 262 kills the type had, it would have an astromical ENY value, however, say a Junkers 88 would probably have more kills on a spit fire. just my opinon!
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if u base the ENY of a 190 against how many kills the had on Spitfires, how many 190's could out turn a spitfire? another example, bombers and 262's. 262's r fast and have 4 30MM and a bomber, even though it has all the guns, would barly ever get a shot at a 262 due to its speed. so if you base a bomber's ENY based on how many 262 kills the type had, it would have an astromical ENY value, however, say a Junkers 88 would probably have more kills on a spit fire. just my opinon!
No one has proposed anything like this. Read the thread.
The two proposals are:
1. Base ENY values on performance data
2. Base ENY values on aircraft popularity
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No one has proposed anything like this. Read the thread.
The two proposals are:
1. Base ENY values on performance data
2. Base ENY values on aircraft popularity
1. Performance based ENY is almost the same as assigning an arbitrary ENY value to a plane. Which is more important: guns or speed? How do you measure turn performance? etc.
2. The only true number representing actual popularity is the number of spawns. It is true for all categories: fighters, attackers, bombers, GV and is completely objective. These figures are not available to us, but I am sure HTC can have it easily.
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1. Performance based ENY is almost the same as assigning an arbitrary ENY value to a plane. Which is more important: guns or speed?
There is a world of difference between using a method to determine ENY, and just making a guess. As to the subjective element that comes from prioritizing different performance attributes, that does not ruin the project in the least. It's something we can discuss, maybe even have a rational discussion over... If you're looking for air-tight infallibility you're not going to get it, but to insist on it is setting far too high of a standard.
How do you measure turn performance? etc.
:huh