Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Warspawn on March 25, 2008, 09:22:03 PM
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Just a question for the vets. I've had them dive down and retain E better than a pony or typhie, metal planes that you'd think would hold momentum better because of their weight. Had a IIC chase me around in the vertical while I was in my 109-K...the thing just kept going. He dove down from about 2k above me and just would not bleed E during several maneuvers.
Once I pushed over and had him anticipate incorrectly, I was able to extend and put on the gas, but the whole fight had me wondering about the plane. Was it this good in WWII? Diving from above, keeping 400+ kts for an extremely long time...was pretty impressive.
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I often wondered about the hurri IIC myself. I have been chased by these planes in my hog in a dive and the catch me. If I remember correctly, a hurri should never be able to catch a hog in a dive coalt. Let alone stay with a hog in a 450+ mph turn like they have and not break a single part.
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It's because they're made from Titanium in Aces High :lol
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I had one dive from me, came up on his low 6, slowly gaining, at about 1.5 out he nosed over, as did I, I was about 300ft below him, and probably a good 30mph faster.
I was 1.5 out at the beginning of the dive, and 1.5 when we leveled out on the deck.. didnt catch him till after that..
I was in a Jug-40
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Is there a difference in engine power between the Hurricane Mk.I and IIc?
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i always use the hurri2 for slow turnfighting. it's MUCH more fun that way :aok
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Just a question for the vets. I've had them dive down and retain E better than a pony or typhie, metal planes that you'd think would hold momentum better because of their weight. Had a IIC chase me around in the vertical while I was in my 109-K...the thing just kept going. He dove down from about 2k above me and just would not bleed E during several maneuvers.
Once I pushed over and had him anticipate incorrectly, I was able to extend and put on the gas, but the whole fight had me wondering about the plane. Was it this good in WWII? Diving from above, keeping 400+ kts for an extremely long time...was pretty impressive.
Like anything else, film would help a lot.
Not saying you're being dishonest, but I often find myself cursing other flight models when in reality I've been giving them advantageous nose low turns to be able to keep their airspeed up and continue to harass me.
I don't think you're seeing it retain E better than a pony or tiffie, simply you're seeing it in one snapshot of its performance envelope. I've really found no problems to this point with any plane I should be able to out run. Just keep paying attention to that alt/e differential at initial engagement.
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Is there a difference in engine power between the Hurricane Mk.I and IIc?
The IIc had about 400 more hp and direct fuel injection.
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But also half a ton more weight minimum.
The Hurri1 is already underpowered. They added an additional 400hp in the 2C, but ALSO an additional 1000+ lbs of weight. So how does this compute with the performance of the 2C, ESPECIALLY when the 2D, using the same engine but a different armament, takes such a DRASTIC hit in handling (how much of a weight difference is there between the 2C and D?)
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after 1942 the hurriIIc was relegated to ground attack because it was not competetive with the 109F, G or the 190As but apparently HTC didn't get that memo. in fairness the 110s are also somewhat overmodelled.
if the FM we have in AH was indicative of fact, the 109s FW190s and spits would have been phased out in favor of the Hurricanes and 110s by their respective countries. Britain having won WWII on the strengths of the hurricane alone would still be fielding them, the current model being the Hurri mk mcmmvxxxiii.
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The hurricane 2c has a couple of elements of its flight model I dont really understand. No question its zoom is awfully good....to good IMO. I've had a hurricane follow my A-20 down and then zoom right with me and even close. It's easy to say he just got faster but when you realize that the A-20 can dive and then zoom both the 109K4 and the hog with a measure of success its a bit baffling. The second anomily is its ability to execute a very hard evasive and "pop back up" with minimal if any E loss. I'm not talking a about a nice tight barrel roll defense or such but a full on 90-120 degree turn and reverse at high G's...for a plane that cant generate much "total E" on its own it sure does seem to carry an awful lot of it thru a fight.
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so now you want to pick on my lowly Hurricane! If a Hurricane caught your K4 then that is just poor SA on your part. Same goes for the hog flyer. You guys want to just fly around in stuff that can't be outran, outdove,outturned or outclimbed. Lets just remodel everything around what you like to fly.
Someone in a hurri pawns your 109K4 dragster, so the hurri must be over-modeled :lol Give me a break! the K4 outclimbs the hurricane...use some ACM, extend, climb and come back to the fight.
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FYI-The hurricanes wings were wood ribs with metal piping originally fabric covered but later stressed metal was used.
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They do shear their wings in high speed maneuvers. In AH they can turn on a dime and lose no E.
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The AH representation of hurricane II is just wrong.
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The AH representation of hurricane II is just wrong.
And this is based on your extensive experience actually flying the Hurri 2c in real life? :rolleyes:
The only people who could even say that are the ones that have had a chance to actually FLY these things. As far as this post goes...this is just a GAME and it really doesn't matter if it is or isn't anyway. :aok
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so now you want to pick on my lowly Hurricane! If a Hurricane caught your K4 then that is just poor SA on your part. Same goes for the hog flyer. You guys want to just fly around in stuff that can't be outran, outdove,outturned or outclimbed. Lets just remodel everything around what you like to fly.
Someone in a hurri pawns your 109K4 dragster, so the hurri must be over-modeled :lol Give me a break! the K4 outclimbs the hurricane...use some ACM, extend, climb and come back to the fight.
he c an't do that.......then there'll be a thread started calling him an running, altmonkey HOtard :rofl
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The AH representation of hurricane II is just wrong.
who cares????????????
HTC's doing the best job they can with the information and equipment they have. rather than focusing on what they do as compared to real life, focus on what they do INGAME....and then fly and fight to your advantages......and for christ sake, HAVE FUN!!!!!!!!!
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More nonsense.
AH is not WW2.
...you would never, EVER, take a fast, heavy fighter like a 109K-4, P-51D, ect ect, and drop down in the weeds and turn fight at @180 mph at 500 feet vs a Hurricane II in real life during the war (any war), unless you were #1 Drunk, #2, Stupid, or #3, Both.
In AH the 1945 superfighters fly in an "arena", where a lot of low wing loading planes TB at low level. Its a GAME.
If you really want to see the drawbacks of a Hurricane IIC vs say, Fw190s...fly in a FSO or a Scenario, and watch the Fws use speed and hit and run to keep Hurricanes defensive.
I recall several FSOs where I was LW, in a 109G-2, and the Russians had some Hurricane IIs, and P-40s. Pfft, we just BZ'd them the entire time. In other words, we used actual WW2 tactics, and did just fine.
...If you want to drop flaps in your 1945 wonderbird and get into a low, slow, TB contest vs a Hurricane with a low wing loading, well, go ahead, but dont blame HTC when you get waxxed!
DUH. :lol
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This thread is funny.
A plane which was armed with quad 20mm, is armoured (and the bits that are not armoured are made of fabric, which often meant that cannon rounds passed straight through) and could out turn a Spitfire is always going to do well in the weeds in AH.
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Aparently squire and furball, U didn't read the initial post. We not turning with a hurri @ 180mph, we trying to dive away and maybe turn @ 400+. Whats happening is a hurri IIC is able to dive with a hog, k4, p47 etcc.. and maintain all that E almost as long as a the Heavy american plans and such. Even if u turn real hard in a hog @ 425+, the hurri can do same and stay with ya if not catch ya without breaking nothing. We talking about a 6-7000lb plane holding its E like it wa a 10-12,000lb plane. It also zoom climbs like the heavy weights. Keep in mind, this is only the Hurri IIC. The IID can't even compare to it at all.
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It also zoom climbs like the heavy weights.
I've never had a IIC match a zoom climb with the P-38, unless the IIC had an overwheling energy advantage to begin with. Coalt, Co-E, a simple Vertical 8 at the merge is usually all that is needed to rope one.
ack-ack
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I read the initial post, im responding to the generalities re: FMs like the Hurricane II vs other rides.
...as far as the specific allegation, you need film to see relative E states.
My guess is it was yet another case of misjudged E.
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I often wondered about the hurri IIC myself. I have been chased by these planes in my hog in a dive and the catch me. If I remember correctly, a hurri should never be able to catch a hog in a dive coalt. Let alone stay with a hog in a 450+ mph turn like they have and not break a single part.
If you were in a Chog or -4 he shouldn't be able to catch you period...
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I was -1, but doesn't matter. He shouldn't have been able to catch any hog but he did. That is the point. This has happen numerous times, more so when diving down and then level, a hurri IIC stays with as much E as me and keeping it for almost as long.
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You need to say "i dove UP and away, and it stayed with me"
Key words, UP & AWAY.
In a dive, of course a armored "heavy" plane will stay with you to some point.
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Point being the Hurricane isn't a heavy plane.
I've seen this questionable level of E-retention with Spits to a lesser degree, as well.
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All of this sounds like a case of misjudging the energy state of your opponent. We've all had it happen to us, but you've just got to suck it up and blame yourself when it does. I don't fly the Hurri much, but from my experiences it doesn't dive so badly, and has good control at high speeds. That's how they can build up all that E and ruin your day when they appear to be in level flight.
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If you were in a Chog or -4 he shouldn't be able to catch you period...
Any lowly fighter can catch the finest ENY 5 plane if it has an E advantage from the "get go". Co-alt does not equal co-speed, or co-E; and yes, many (if not most) veterans do not understand this concept in the heat of battle... All they think is ENY ("Oh, he has the crappier plane, so this one is MINE!.... WTF ??!! I got killed! Something is PORKED !!!!!!!!").
If you film all engagements and study the merging speeds, and altitude (and you understand the relationship) all such illusions of "porked flight models" will dissipate.
Yes, a heavier plane retains E better - but a lighter one accelerates faster. Short term: lighter plane has the advantage - long term, heavier one does (simplification, but a good rule of thumb when the watermelon hits the fan). How long ? 2-3 minutes. In the heat of battle, that is an eternity.
BTW: on the Corsair - yes it retains energy extremely well, but, contrary to what you might think, it rebuilds lost energy VERY slowly. A knowledgeable pilot in even the crappiest of all rides will exploit this. CO-Energy with most planes, the Corsair is a very weak ride - certainly no match (all things "E" being equal) with something like a Spitfire, A6M2 or Hurricane (among others). Yes a superior pilot might make a difference, but then... we start to change the subject (of comparison) from planes to pilots.
Do not cry and whine when you lose - study and get better.
Slamfire
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Simplification: for those of you that do not understand the above.... try sucking less :rock
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Aparently squire and furball, U didn't read the initial post. We not turning with a hurri @ 180mph, we trying to dive away and maybe turn @ 400+. Whats happening is a hurri IIC is able to dive with a hog, k4, p47 etcc.. and maintain all that E almost as long as a the Heavy american plans and such. Even if u turn real hard in a hog @ 425+, the hurri can do same and stay with ya if not catch ya without breaking nothing. We talking about a 6-7000lb plane holding its E like it wa a 10-12,000lb plane. It also zoom climbs like the heavy weights. Keep in mind, this is only the Hurri IIC. The IID can't even compare to it at all.
I did actually and was just giving a general reply.
In my experience, the Hurri bleeds E drastically, although i am rarely ever high enough in it to get E. Besides, my opinions are probably out of date now.
I have never read any reports of compression in the Hurricane, so whether it got it bad in RL or not i do not know. If you have ever seen a Hawker Hurricane up close, it is a real strongly built aircraft, the thickness of the wing on the Hawker Typhoon and Hurricane is really surprising. I found that it doesn't get much speed in a dive, and really does not hold E very well at all - a6m's are lighter and seem to hold E much better.
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Looking at specs for hurricane 2 compared with its contemporary adversaries like 109e/f you can tell it is too fast compared with the real lite (tm)
Beeing able to keep up with much better the much better specs of 109f/g models is just not historical.
Coming in its gun arc should be bad news, as it is in AH
Should'nt AH's FM's try to be as close as possible to real life ? - well presonally I think so.
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I have broken the wings off in a turning high speed dive. Several times. But as for out diving heavier jugs,hogs,ponys,etc...the Hurricane can't do it with equal E. But if the hurricane is above you,which i asume is the case or you wouldn't be diving away, then he does have a E advantage.
Just the other night, a K4 dove on me, him with 2k alt advantage, and stuck to me like glue until he got the kill. I should have been able to out turn him...right? But couldn't, and I sure couldn't out dive him.
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Slamfire,
AKDogg is probably one of the LAST people you should be "schooling" ( :rofl ) on the capabilities of the F4U.
CO-Energy with most planes, the Corsair is a very weak ride - certainly no match (all things "E" being equal) with something like a Spitfire, A6M2 or Hurricane (among others).
Bullchit.
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Simplification: for those of you that do not understand the above.... try sucking less :rock
o dear, did noobfire really say that :huh
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I flew the Hurri a little bit, and I must have done something wrong, because I never found it to perform like a Tempest, making turns with ease in excess of 400mph or zoomclimbing with the best. Anyone have some films of these incidents?
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I've probably got a couple dozen floating around since i film everything. My "question" isnt about total E state initially its about retention over time and bleed under short duration high G loading. If we look at the A-20 specifically its about the best "zoom" plane in the game given an equal start. Now even at a significant disadvantage its somewhat remarkable. I can get the A-20 to roughly 410 MPH (TAS) before she breaks up (sometimes more) and have extended literally a full sector vs 109K's 190D's La-7's FuU's etc that were initially higher before reversing. The A-20 will retain that high speed OTD for a remarkably long time.
Now all those planes have a higher sustained top speed and better climb so things attrite rapidly at the end. Against "lesser" planes like the F6F, Spit 16 etc the A-20 has a bit more margin in the zoom to potentially convert to a zoom climb without the con being able to easily match up. Two planes really stand out however, the nikki and hurricane can actually gain significantly on an A-20 which I find very suprising given the difference in mass and relatively moderate sustained climb differential. From my perspective the hurricane in particular acts like a plane with more weight and a higher top speed/sustained climb then it actually has.
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Any lowly fighter can catch the finest ENY 5 plane if it has an E advantage from the "get go". Co-alt does not equal co-speed, or co-E; and yes, many (if not most) veterans do not understand this concept in the heat of battle... All they think is ENY ("Oh, he has the crappier plane, so this one is MINE!.... WTF ??!! I got killed! Something is PORKED !!!!!!!!").
If you film all engagements and study the merging speeds, and altitude (and you understand the relationship) all such illusions of "porked flight models" will dissipate.
Yes, a heavier plane retains E better - but a lighter one accelerates faster. Short term: lighter plane has the advantage - long term, heavier one does (simplification, but a good rule of thumb when the watermelon hits the fan). How long ? 2-3 minutes. In the heat of battle, that is an eternity.
BTW: on the Corsair - yes it retains energy extremely well, but, contrary to what you might think, it rebuilds lost energy VERY slowly. A knowledgeable pilot in even the crappiest of all rides will exploit this. CO-Energy with most planes, the Corsair is a very weak ride - certainly no match (all things "E" being equal) with something like a Spitfire, A6M2 or Hurricane (among others). Yes a superior pilot might make a difference, but then... we start to change the subject (of comparison) from planes to pilots.
Do not cry and whine when you lose - study and get better.
Slamfire
LOL, guess U don't know me very well. I can show u what I can do in a hog vers any plane u want. I not talking about bnz either. I will turn fight any spit, zeke or hurri with it and usually win. I sure alot here will agree with me on this.
As far as the merges, when a hurri turns 180 and catches u when u are alrdy doing 360+, there something wrong, espescially when he was coalt with u 5.5k out at 10k. He didn't dive down or did I. This is how well a hurri can hold E. I did have alot of these films till I lost my HD a few months ago. I guess I gonna have to pick on some hurri's more and film.
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AKDogg, I want a hurri vs hog duel with you. Not saying I think I can win, but I may get lucky a few times :salute
Both planes with 50% fuel
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Heh. I think the most I've ever gotten against Dogg is managed to get his engine smoking in his -4 with a lucky snapshot from an FM-2, but was never able to get another shot and ended up augering at some point.
But then again, the AKs seem to spend most of their time as Rooks, so I've never actually gotten many chances to go up AGAINST him.
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Should'nt AH's FM's try to be as close as possible to real life ? - well presonally I think so.
Show proof the FMs are wrong.
ack-ack
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But then again, the AKs seem to spend most of their time as Rooks, so I've never actually gotten many chances to go up AGAINST him.
We rotate every tour for almost a year now.
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I've noticed a couple interesting things about the A6 and Hurri whenever I come up against them in my K4. Usually to my horror or my sudden joy at having done much practice flying home with half a wing.
The K4 can zoom tremendously thanks to its light frame and powerful engine. The P-47 and Hog both climb like bricks, but once their engine reall starts working they can really go. However, the A6 and Hurri however don't have that advantage but can still both zoom very effectively. I think this is because the A6 and Hurri both have extremely good lift capabilities due to their wings and weight.
The A6 is practically a kite with guns, it just needs a little gust of wind and it can take off without moving forward.(I've managed to get an A6 to take off of a Carrier with no runway by turning it into a realistic Wind, as in not 30+MPH) The hurri has very very thick wings compared to most fighters, this cause greater seperation of air as it moves and therefore more lift.
So it may just be that the A6 and Hurri can zoom and turn as well as they can simply because of what I personally call the "kite effect". They're light enough and have enough lift that they don't 'need' the power of the uber-rides, which makes them popular.
Whereas planes like the K4, P-47, and Hog get their abilities mostly through the "brick effect". As in, you throw enough power behind it and you can get a brick to outturn a dog chasing its tail.
Just my simple logic and $0.02.
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It also zoom climbs like the heavy weights. Keep in mind, this is only the Hurri IIC. The IID can't even compare to it at all.
I tried this simple test tonight to compare the Hurricane IIC and the F4U-4
- I took both planes up to 15k with with 50% fuel
- I chopped throttle until they were right on the edge of stalling
- I dove straight down, full throttle with wep to 5k
- and finally zoom climbed straight back up in the vertical with a very gentle back pressure on the the stick
The Hurricane IIC climbed back up to 10k before stalling out.
The F4U-4 climbed all the way back up to 15k before stalling out (essentially lost no E)
Basically that's a 1 mile difference.
Conclusion: the Hurricane IIC can in no way compete with the F4U-4 when it comes to zoom climbs and E retention.
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I hate N1K's...wrong topic sorry.
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I have a fleeting suspicion that this is a Hizooka/Gunnery related issue, rather than a FM related one.
People, even experienced vets, tend to get the impression that they "cannot shake the guy behind him", when the guy behind him lands pings and hits out to long distances. - despite the fact that the distance is growing between the two planes.
So, what could be happening is, that the distance is actually growing when you try and outdive a Hurricane... but the problem is, the Hurri pilot lobs and sprays Hizookas which may land a hit even upto +600 distances. When something falls apart, you get the feeling the Hurri2C is keeping up with you.
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I tried this simple test tonight to compare the Hurricane IIC and the F4U-4
- I took both planes up to 15k with with 50% fuel
- I chopped throttle until they were right on the edge of stalling
- I dove straight down, full throttle with wep to 5k
- and finally zoom climbed straight back up in the vertical with a very gentle back pressure on the the stick
The Hurricane IIC climbed back up to 10k before stalling out.
The F4U-4 climbed all the way back up to 15k before stalling out (essentially lost no E)
Basically that's a 1 mile difference.
Conclusion: the Hurricane IIC can in no way compete with the F4U-4 when it comes to zoom climbs and E retention.
I not talking about a -4, very few planes can stay with a -4 in a zoom. Try a -1 series.
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I not talking about a -4, very few planes can stay with a -4 in a zoom. Try a -1 series.
Will do...
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I not talking about a -4, very few planes can stay with a -4 in a zoom. Try a -1 series.
Did a few trials with the -1. I got it to zoom back up to 13k consistently. About what I expected - not quite as good as the -4, but still 3k more than the Hurricane.
What hurts the -1 more than anything is it generates tremendous speed and starts compressing - which makes for a bit of a lagged recovery. The -4 has no such problems.
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Did a few trials with the -1. I got it to zoom back up to 13k consistently. About what I expected - not quite as good as the -4, but still 3k more than the Hurricane.
What hurts the -1 more than anything is it generates tremendous speed and starts compressing - which makes for a bit of a lagged recovery. The -4 has no such problems.
...which, seems to suggest my theory is starting to look more valid.. :D
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...which, seems to suggest my theory is starting to look more valid.. :D
Yep I tend to agree...
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I often wondered about the hurri IIC myself. I have been chased by these planes in my hog in a dive and the catch me. If I remember correctly, a hurri should never be able to catch a hog in a dive coalt. Let alone stay with a hog in a 450+ mph turn like they have and not break a single part.
and i thought it was odd wen it caught my pony D doing almost 500 in a dive, but turning at 450 in a hurricane IIC? no chance, i cant even keep wings on it at 450, how someone turn it?! :cry :cry