Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: BnZ on March 26, 2008, 07:56:57 AM
-
I believe it should in fact be possible to rate the value of a given plane in game objectively. The following is a first draft of a grading system, weighted for MA conditions, that would be useful for objective ENY/perk value assignment purposes, when perfected.
1.Top speed@SL*3
2.Top speed@5K*3
3.Top speed@10K*2.5
4.Top speed@15K*1.5
5.Top speed @20K*1
6.Climb rate@SL*3
7.Climb rate@5K*3
8.Climb rate@10K*2.5
9.Climb rate@15K*1.5
10.Climb rate@20K*1
12. Max alt gained in zoom climb from 350mph start @5K,*4
13.-(minimum turn circle, no flaps*4)
14.-(minimum turn circle, 1 notch*4)
15.-(minimum turn circle, full flaps*4)
16.Roll rate 150mph, DPS
17.Roll rate 250mph, DPS
18.Roll rate 350mph, DPS
19.Roll rate 450mph, DPS
20.Lethality primary weapon 1 sec burst*2
21.Lethality secondary weapon 1 sec burst*2
22.Firing time primary weapon*4
23.Firing time secondary weapon*4
24.Ordinance load, lbs,*2
23.Flight time full internal*4
24.Flight time fulll internal+drops*4
25-(compression mach*4)
-
OK I'll play... add the following...
Carrier Capable
Durability - Damage
Durability - Structure Strength (parts peeling)
Flap Deployment Speeds
Parasitic Drag
Stability
Stall Recovery
Visibility
Weapon Ballistics
Zoom Climb
-
The problem is that none of those elements taken individually truely matter. My understanding is that current ENY values are derived from usage and performance stats in game. Thats why planes like the hurricane 2C and tiffie are ENY 10 while apparently more uber planes like the 109K4 and 190D are higher. The ENY's are actually graded by the most objective standard available...actual game performance.
-
Zoom Climb
he already had that in there...
-
he already had that in there...
Your shoe is untied...
-
OK I'll play... add the following...
Carrier Capable
Durability - Damage
Durability - Structure Strength (parts peeling)
Flap Deployment Speeds
Parasitic Drag
Stability
Stall Recovery
Visibility
Weapon Ballistics
Zoom Climb
Carrier capable-Very good. Must figure a number to add to the scores of CV planes.
Durability-Problematic. Lots of planes have tough parts and weak parts. Need numbers I don't have here. As far as dive durability...maybe simplify by factoring in whatever is the redline IAS at 5K. Whether it is because you just lost parts or because you compressed.
Flap deployment-One could simply not factor in full flaps turn radius for planes that have abysmally low flaps out speeds, that would be the way to go here, I think. I'll add the caveat that since all our flaps are auto-retracting and won't be torn away, the ability to drop a notch or two well ABOVE no-flaps corner speed doesn't count for much, and shouldn't be a factor.
Parasitic drag-Parasite drag's importance is the effect on top speed and zoom climb, two already listed factors.
stability/stall recovery-Too subjective
visibility-Good, a possibility. A simple 4 increment rating system for front, back, and canopy visibility sounds workable.
ballistics-Good, this is no problem at all, muzzle velocity works here.
-
Humble: An airplane's attributes, weighed together, doesn't matter?
I don't think you could have come up with a more potent example of what is wrong with the "popularity contest" system if you tried than the one you gave. I mean, the Hurri2c gets high marks for turn radius and firepower, maybe people like to fly them in furballs alot, maybe they are annoying in the way they can swap ends and HO as a defense, but we are still talking about a 1941 plane that almost any other fighter can engage and disengage from practically at will, and usually out perform in climb and zoom too.
The fact that the Dora has relatively high 15 ENY, that 109K is 20, considering all the ways that the Kurt is superior, or that the entire 109 series, great airplanes, are all above 20, is an even better example of what I'm talking about.
The problem is that none of those elements taken individually truely matter. My understanding is that current ENY values are derived from usage and performance stats in game. Thats why planes like the hurricane 2C and tiffie are ENY 10 while apparently more uber planes like the 109K4 and 190D are higher. The ENY's are actually graded by the most objective standard available...actual game performance.
-
Your shoe is untied...
you have something in your teeth.
-
you have something in your teeth.
XYZ...
-
I'll rate any 38 as XXX.
-
The fact that the Dora has relatively high 15 ENY, that 109K is 20, considering all the ways that the Kurt is superior, or that the entire 109 series, great airplanes, are all above 20, is an even better example of what I'm talking about.
I beleive there is something else at work here.
For example... the P47N has 5 eny and the 109K has 20.
With equal pilots, and at MA altitudes (heck, anything under 15k) the 109K will dominate the P47N. But... the P47N was a rare, latewar version of the Jug, and the 109 was one of the most prolific fighters of all time, and the K was fairly common by the end of the war... thus, the higher eny rating. I think HTC takes usage int account when rating planes.
-
Geez, some folks just have waaaaay too much free time!!!
-
The only factors that I use to "rate" a plane are ... do I feel deadly in it and is it the right plane for the job.
-
The only factors that I use to "rate" a plane are ... do I feel deadly in it and is it the right plane for the job.
Let's stay on topic.
This thread is exactly the sort of discussion I wanted to start earlier. BnZ has already set a higher standard by giving numerical values for different aspects of aircraft performance. Those who wish to add-on or criticize should do so in the same terminology.
-
I beleive there is something else at work here.
For example... the P47N has 5 eny and the 109K has 20.
With equal pilots, and at MA altitudes (heck, anything under 15k) the 109K will dominate the P47N. But... the P47N was a rare, latewar version of the Jug, and the 109 was one of the most prolific fighters of all time, and the K was fairly common by the end of the war... thus, the higher eny rating. I think HTC takes usage int account when rating planes.
I don't quite agree with your conclusion. Plenty of high use aircraft (during the war) also have low ENY values. Let's admit that the P-47N ENY makes no friggin' sense. :P
-
Let's stay on topic.
This thread is exactly the sort of discussion I wanted to start earlier. BnZ has already set a higher standard by giving numerical values for different aspects of aircraft performance. Those who wish to add-on or criticize should do so in the same terminology.
I guess I've been "told" ... :uhoh
Here is one factor that needs to be added ...
26) (what HT/PYRO think*1000000)
-
You're still begging the question. We already know what HTC thinks. The problem is that what we've ended up with is so inconsistent that calling it the result of thought, and not guessing, is a real stretch.
-
You're still begging the question. We already know what HTC thinks. The problem is that what we've ended up with is so inconsistent that calling it the result of thought, and not guessing, is a real stretch.
So if I read this correctly.... your saying HT and pyro are thoughtless. I'd like to play your game release if it is out yet so I can compare it to AH. Then we'll discuss thoughtless processes.
-
You're still begging the question. We already know what HTC thinks. The problem is that what we've ended up with is so inconsistent that calling it the result of thought, and not guessing, is a real stretch.
I'm willing to bet that HiTech and Pyro will say the same about your "thoughts" on the matter.
ack-ack
-
You're still begging the question. We already know what HTC thinks. The problem is that what we've ended up with is so inconsistent that calling it the result of thought, and not guessing, is a real stretch.
I definately wouldn't say their thoughtless, just that the strength of each aircraft wasn't the only factor that went into assigning ENY values. Whether or not the strength of the aircraft should be the only or major component of assigning the ENY value is up to debate. There are other factors that could be considered such as number that saw service in the war, years it saw service for and in, MA usage levels...
Either way theres nothing wrong with putting together a chart of aircraft strengths, even if the HTC developers aren't interested in making ENY changes based on it. Others may find use of it and HTC may decide to make use of it for other purposes. But speaking as a developer myself I tend to not take user data seriously unless they have good documentation of the methods used to generate the data and proof that they were employed accurately and consistently. Otherwise the data is garbage.
I've got a lot more respect for someone who's coming up with suggestions and are willing to do the leg work to get the details of their suggestions in order so they can be presented properly. Far cry better than those that say 'this is broke, this sucks, change it!'.
-
Numbers of plane that saw service, unfortunately that just falls on its face for the MA usage, because a plane can be rare without being particularly uber or desirable.
By this standard, the C-Hog would demand a higher perk than the Me-262, because more of the latter were built and used. That make sense to anyone?
-
I think HT and Pyro use dungeons & dragons dice to figure out what the eny's are :lol
-
So if I read this correctly.... your saying HT and pyro are thoughtless. I'd like to play your game release if it is out yet so I can compare it to AH. Then we'll discuss thoughtless processes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument).
-
Numbers of plane that saw service, unfortunately that just falls on its face for the MA usage, because a plane can be rare without being particularly uber or desirable.
By this standard, the C-Hog would demand a higher perk than the Me-262, because more of the latter were built and used. That make sense to anyone?
I never said there was a standard. Buy if you look at ENY its quite obvious that HTC takes numbers into account wnen assigning perk costs. Theres no other reasoning for the the 109K being 20 ENY.
-
The problem is that what we've ended up with is so inconsistent that calling it the result of thought, and not guessing, is a real stretch.
...Just requoting :devil
-
Hey guys, didn't mean for this to become a fight, just thinking out loud here. If this is not wortwhile line of inquiry, then I respectfully withdraw it.
One thing though, yeah, HTC is awesome for creating this game, I couldn't have done it myself, lo, I am not worthy. This is all true. But you know, I gotta think of the Wright brothers. Yes they made the giant leap at Kittyhawk. Does that mean all those guys who afterwards came up with little tweaks (like moving the pitch control surfaces from the nose to tails, adding a rudder, simplifying the control system, etc) were just disrespectful cranks who did not respect the genius of the original? :D
-
Actually, I see two very valid sides to this argument...
One is that this is a game, not a technical study by a college for publishing in a journal. I'm sure you could take all of the factors mentioned and create a very valid rating matrix of every plane in the game list. But that is not the point of AH2, and it needs to be remembered that this is still a game...where it is more FUN to fly certain kick-butt, high-powered, heavily-armed planes at really high speeds for some people, and more fun to others to have a very tactile experience with the airplane, more like a game of chess would be, with wit and strategy factoring in (thus the actual plane choice makes less of a difference). In this respect, using "how many times xyz plane is picked" as a factor for ENY does make sense. If it is more likely that people will be flying a certain plane, more of them in the air at any given time, etc. etc.
On the other hand, all of the arguments regarding the lack of consistency with "real" war-time statistics does bear consideration. I just think it has less value than the first argument above. I also think that, while this comparison of significant airplane features would provide a consistent ENY value rating for all the planes and new planes, I think that most pilots place less emphasis on what the actual ENY value of the plane is.
I don't know how many times, can't count, I've been blasted out of the air by a well-placed shot from a HurrC. Then again, I've also pounced many of them in faster planes because they couldn't get out of their own way... So I think the ENY rating has less importance and the marriage of pilot skill/plane choice really has a lot to do with it. I hate Hogs, because you can't see out the back of them...but then I get killed by them all the time too...so the ENY of my plane doesn't help me, and my dislike for the other plane has nothing to do with the ENY of that plane.
Great topic, btw.
-
BnZ...don't sweat the small stuff. :D
What you, perhaps, fail to understand ( as do others that have posted here) is that the ENY/perk system is not intended to be "objective". It is intended as a tool for HTC to control (as painlessly as possible) how the game is played in the MA's. In many cases, the rationale behind a perk or ENY value has been prevent dominant late war planes from flooding the arenas. Other cases have been because of the fact that certain planes were only produced in small numbers. In one case that I know of, the C-hog, a plane received a low perk because it was dominating the arena.
My point is that you can continue to attempt to assign values to each planes attributes in hopes of creating an "objective system" to deal with ENY/perk issues. I'm sure that, at the same time, HTC will continue to do what they have been doing...regardless. :aok
-
One thing that I do think is important to survivability of a plane is physical size of the plane. A small target like a 109 or a Yak is harder to hit when flown evasivly then a 38 or a Mossie.
-
BnZ...don't sweat the small stuff. :D
In many cases, the rationale behind a perk or ENY value has been prevent dominant late war planes from flooding the arenas.
Okay, this brings us back to the part I don't understand. Why then, is something like the 190D9's ENY so high? (You got the trifecta of late-war, powerful, and somewhat rare going there.) And why is the 109K's eny (which is at least the equal of the D9 as a MA plane, and much superior in a 1v1 combat) even higher?
Lets say the ENY is high on your side because of player numbers...you can fly a Jug (except the N, the only one with really competitive speed at MA alts), you can fly a P-51B (a 1943 airplane that most can't kill in easily.) Or you can fly the latest, greatest, and most bestial FW190 and ME109s ever built, not to mention the fairly powerful Yak...huh? :huh
-
You all put way too much thought into this game. Why can't we just play it and have fun?? I will just take it for what it is, a game and enjoy it while I am playing. I am glad though that some of you take this so serious to come up with a scoring system for each plane. :aok It is quite perplexing to me though why.
<S>
Spazz
-
The only factors that I use to "rate" a plane are ... do I feel deadly in it and is it the right plane for the job.
Have you found it