Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: uberslet on March 26, 2008, 08:09:07 PM
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would some1 take the time to teach me the secrets of managing my E? i always get burned by some1 manageing E better than me....i feel like a noob, then again i never went to the TA when i started....... :uhoh
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would some1 take the time to teach me the secrets of managing my E?
Sure, I'll be able to spend some time with you in the TA over the weekend, why don't you PM me with some times so we can schedule it.
Badboy
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ty badboy, <S>! what time is good for you? friday at about 6:00PM-10:00PM EST is good for me. ill look for you in game, any time this week after 5:30PM EST is actually good.
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I wouldn't mind getting a primer on this subject. Could either of you PM me with the decided time and I'll try to be there. Otherwise I'll get back to you Badboy.
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I wouldn't mind getting a primer on this subject. Could either of you PM me with the decided time and I'll try to be there. Otherwise I'll get back to you Badboy.
Hi,
I'm going to be looking out for Uberslet at the early end of the times he's posted, until we hook up.
Both of you please let me know your in-game names so that I can do a .f to find you when I log in.
Badboy
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in game: UberSlet
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I work Friday nights so you guys go ahead and hook up as you best see fit. Badboy, I'll PM you when I can set aside an hour this weekend. In game ID is Max.
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Badboy, I'll PM you when I can set aside an hour this weekend. In game ID is Max.
I'll be available most of the weekend, just let me know.
Badboy
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yea uber, you need some help in this field lol.
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would some1 take the time to teach me the secrets of managing my E? i always get burned by some1 manageing E better than me....i feel like a noob, then again i never went to the TA when i started....... :uhoh
This is a ongoing search for the holy grail type of thing. I dont think you ever stop learning about E management...
A couple of general comments...
1) E state in disimiliar plane types...
Most common in the MA, here you need to balance starting position and plane strengths. Some planes keep E well but regain it slowly (think pony) others Keep it well and regain it quickly (think spit). So if your bounced by a high pony you can "win" the E fight by inducing G loading and then out accelerate him from "even". However vs a spitty you'll need to get slower to catch him faster and force a snapshot (even if you cant hit him) to try and induce violent evasives and seperation...then keep him defensive. It's hard to win the E fight till you can judge initial E state and then work a solid plan by plane type...
2)same/similiar plane
More of a "dueling" enviornment...
Realize that in this fight E and angles are interdependent. It's not always possible to "win the E fight" without flying an angles fight. The angles fighter is relying on securing a position of angular advantage even at the expense of E state. The core issue is that the angles fighter gets better and better at minimizing unwanted E bleed and rebuilding E state while forcing the con to evade and erode E state (or get shot). So to be a good E fighter you need to understand and employ sound angles strategy and then seek to convert from an apparent angles attack to an E fight mid stream. There is actually very very little margin of error in a straight "E opener" {trust me I know} vs a top tier stick. If you cant eek out an 800Y margin your more then likely to be a hanging curveball. In addition you can force your AoA to the point you lose all control authority and actually lose more E recovering then you "gained". Most "E fighters" are more plane dependent then they think, only a select few can really dominate a same/similiar plane 1 on 1 via pure E fighting. Normally your working an Angles to E to Angles or E to Angles to E type of a fight. Against a good stick you've got to get him leaning right so you can go left....
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humble, not trying to make you retype what you just stated above, but by Angle of Attack you mean?
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I think angle of attack is:
The angle between your direction of travel, and where your wings are pointed...When it gets too high, you stall, as the airflow over the wing is disrupted. This is why when you pull a tight turn, even at a high speed, you can still stall - what you've done in this case is made you Angle of Attack to high, disrupting the airflow over your wings, resulting in a loss of lift and thus you stall.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
<S>
Yossarian
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Technically AoA is a measurement describing the difference between the chord line of the wing and the vector representing the relative motion of the wing thru the air (think I got that right). Practically in normal use its used to refer to a situation where the plane is put in a significant nose up attitude relative to its speed. High AoA at low speeds is what creates instability and increased control input and/or a stall that causes E bleed.
Often a better pilot is off the gas and pulling high G's early in a fight. This allows him to "Get around" faster then his opponent and create a favorable line into the "2nd merge". The bogy is then in a defensive and often reactionary mood and increasing control input and G loading to evade the perceived shot. Since he's normally in a higher E state the "right move" often appears to be taking the fight up. Meanwhile after his aggresive turn the 1st pilot has unloased his aircraft and is flying at maximum effeciency (this is for a very short period). So what we have here a scenario where the 1st pilot is aggresive early in the original merge and the 2nd is retaining E...but the 2nd pilot then has to react to the aggresive line of the 1st and the anguar gain he has...often costing him more E then he "saved" or presenting a guns solution or both...
I've been getting my butt spanked by a few of the DA aces somewhat regularly as I try and put some polish back on my game. I might have a few films where you can see me falling victim to this since I'm instinctively a pure E fighter after so much time in the A-20. I havent been filming much of it since it would be to depressing. I also have some films from a recent dueling ladder encounter where I took what I learned and melded it a bit to my normal E fighting. It shows a pretty decent angles to E to angles profile I think (havent looked at em)...
I'm generally considered to be a well above average same plane E fighter, and i'm way way behind the very elite guys. It's a long long learning curve. To become a good E fighter in a one on one enviornment you need to learn a few things 1st...
1) The nuts and bolts of the merge
You will never be better then your merge allows you to be...
2) The concepts of anguar advantage both in and out of plane
You cant win the E fight if you dont understand the angles fight...
3) The proper use of lag and lead pursuit in a fight....
anytime your pulling G's your burning E, once you waste it you wont get it back vs a good stick
4) The value and timing of unloading your airframe at high AoA...
Once you can float like a butterfly you'll be able to sting like a Bee...
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very good points humble.
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Agreed :aok
Could you please give me a brief definition of angles fighting, and perhaps a few links where I can read up on it?
<S>
Yossarian
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(http://tailslide.firelightsoftware.com/images/0870210599_l.gif)
The problem here is that its a simple concept and a complex reality. Angles fighting at its heart is simply "out turning" your opponent. At the start with an even merge the 2 planes are nose to nose or have an "angle off" of 180 degrees...
In order to gain a direct 6 position one plane has to gain those 180 degree's of angle...hence the term "angles fight". So many variables come into play that there is no simple answer if your engaged with a superior pilot. You need to build your game in stages. Even for me its daunting. I spent 4-5 hours getting smacked around by 4 or 5 really good sticks (I lost literally every fight and dont think I got a single shot window) to gain (or regain) a couple of very specific fundementals. That allowed me to reprogram a couple of aspects of my game and all of a sudden I'm 200% better or more. In a second series of fights with the same guys I had multiple shot windows and survived multiple attacks. I lost almost all of them but they were very good fights that came down to my ability to fly the plane vs fly the fight. As my raw ability to park a given plane on the edge of its flight envelope efficiently improves then my range of possibilities will widen again.
So you need to be able to "think" the fight....then catch up and execute your plan...then push your actual ability to fly to that new edge etc...
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This is a pretty interesting conversation so I'll throw in some of my thoughts with regards to mixing E fighting and angles fighting...
My E game, particularly in a 1v1 is used mostly to keep my opponent at arms reach (and usually when I recognize I'm about to be beat in the angles game by a negative-E opponent). Similar to a boxers jab, this provides you with separation to avoid being hit. When I say separation it doesn't mean out of guns range, it simply means denying your opponent a guns solution through a higher energy state or position gained by that higher energy state. There are many times when I'm in an E retention mode, while my opponent is hanging only 100 yds behind and below but lacks the speed & control authority to nose up in order to fire.
From here you use the time & separation to gain position before attacking again. Basically you're looking for a good opportunity to switch back to an angles fight, such as your opponent wing-dipping or slowly sliding out of position in a spiral climb. I rarely think in terms of bleeding out all my opponents E, I simply want to hold them at bay long enough to gain a better angle to pursue a shot with. If you're good at retaining E after switching to angles, you can miss a shot and rinse/repeat, especially if your move costs your target more E then it cost you in making the move.
In a many vs 1 fight, assuming you want to avoid extending, E & position is more important because you generally can't afford to scrub much E when switching to angles for a shot. You need to maintain your E advantage by either adding E faster then your opponents, or bleeding their E faster then you bleed yours. You have to weigh risk and reward, attempting to execute high G maneuvers only when it gives you a high probability of a kill. Although, killing quickly is arguably a better choice then killing slowly but maintaining E. It's very difficult to keep 3 or more cons from building their E unless they choose to bunch up tightly together and have to all break together when you attack. Try and stay close and above. The further away you are the easier it is for the cons to track you. Directly above with an E advantage you have the opportunity to drop in from any position on the clock and they can only force an equal angle merge by going vertical which can often lead them into hanging themselves in a difficult to control position. Be aggressive and smart, use your E to gain position and keep forcing them to react.
Lastly try and avoid being reversed, particularly by cannon birds. If your E differential is not sufficient to create separation quickly a good pilot will often offer a difficult/low aspect shot while rolling into your path in order to get a shot as you go by. You need be mindful of the direction you choose to extend in the event you miss your shot. Separate away from their lift line if possible to force a tracking rather then straight shot and cause them to scrub additional E in order to take it.