Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: marcof on February 28, 2001, 11:44:00 AM
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Some of the V-Pilots in 249 RAF are asking/talking, about the FM mode in AH, basicly how do the "real" pilots out there rate it, does it seem real to them, can they compare it without flying P51, Spits etc?, does it someway feel "RIGHT" to the real pilots amongst us?.
The other part of the question was and is, does the WB FM seem better? against AH?.
But I dont want to turn this into a WB versus AH discussion..............
Looking forward to your replys...
Marcof 249RAF C~H~Q.
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Both games have a highly believable representation of flight. I wouldn't know if they are any more accurate than that, no one does except for a few aeronautical engineers. Computer models are never a spot on representation of the real world. Yes I've flown a few planes, Cessna 172s and 152s and a kit plane called a Cozy.
There's no absolute way to tell which game is more accurate in recreating WWII plane's flying unless everyone in here had flown each of the aircraft modelled in AH or WB and had room to comment on it.
-SW
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Oh and another thing........does the auto combat trim seem to offer a "cheat" to pilots who us it?, some of our WB based pilots feel that it is somewhat taking away the skill factor in the game?.
Would like to hear your views on that aswell.
Thanks,
Marcof.
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The One thing that has bothered me about the AH FM compared to WBs is the pre compression modeling. WBs has it done better IMO. Fortunately v1.06 will see this fixed.
Also, I seem to recall that in WBs, I was limited in stick response during high speed manoevers. I feel that in AH there is no loss of stick input regardless of G-load.
These matters aside, Im fine with AH FMs and still find AH more challenging to succeed in than I ever did in WBs.
As for real planes......never flown in one.
Regarding Combat Trim: I use it mostly because I feel limited using manual trim on the keyboard due to my stick not supporting it. I dont feel its a cheat because folks that can use it manually are better off.
When I get my CH USB gear I plan on programing it to a HAT and using trim manually because its more responsive to immediate needs, like gunnery.
Yeager
[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 02-28-2001).]
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I couldn't answer that one Marcof. I don't fly with combat trim on, I prefer to be able to trim my own plane in flight.. most people in AH do trim their own plane. I haven't run into any problems dogfighting in AH, so I believe that people that do have auto combat trim enabled don't get much of an advantage in having it turned on.
-SW
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Originally posted by marcof:
Oh and another thing........does the auto combat trim seem to offer a "cheat" to pilots who us it?, some of our WB based pilots feel that it is somewhat taking away the skill factor in the game?.
Would like to hear your views on that aswell.
Thanks,
Marcof.
Actually, the pilot that manages his own trim has a big advantage over auto-trim if he employs it correctly.
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Oh and another thing........does the auto combat trim seem to offer a "cheat" to pilots who us it?, some of our WB based pilots feel that it is somewhat taking away the skill factor in the game?.
Combat trim does not make your plane handle better. In most cases it will extend your turns or lead to other wierd behavior. I fly with combat trim on and immediately disengage it when I enter a fight. It is only there to get you close, but it doesn't take situation, attitude nor altitude into account. Its a very simplistic way to keep your trim tabs adjusted for level flight at a given speed... not for best maneuverability at that speed.
AKDejaVu
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Which is "more real" is a very hard answer Marcof, especially considering that they feel very similar in alot of ways. Most people tend to think what they are use too is "better", especially when they are fairly similar in "feel".
I do know that the AH FM handles some things that the WB FM does not. Dynamic CG's, external ordinance/drop tanks drag, and some other things that I'll let the real FM guru's talk about.
But this is very logical result considering that the AH flight models are the direct extension of the experiences learned in creating the WB flight models.
Auto Combat Trim is another difficult subject. There are several very long threads discussing just this issue from back a version ago when it was introduced.
One thing that everyone seemed to agree upon (especially real pilots), was that the way "trim" is used in WB's, and in AH, up until that point, was not very realistic in itself.
Go back and try to find accounts of pilots actively using trim during combat, and or most importantly using trim actively in turn fights to "boost" turn performance or to pull up out of compression effects. Trim just wasn't (and isn't) used that way.
So Auto Combat Trim is somewhat a concession. Please realize however that a experienced pilot using manual trim will get alot more out of his aircraft than another pilot using auto trim.
Those are just a few of the things that were brought up, so I would suggest you go back and read the old threads. They are quite informative.
Personally, I don't think Auto Combat Trim is an "easy mode" at all. It just gets you into the ballpark, it doesn't perfectly trim your aircraft. But I know others that disagree.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 02-28-2001).]
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Hands down WB's fm is much harder. Accurate? Dunno. For instance, after lots of flying the 190a5 in AH, I tried the 190a4 in WB's and couldn't even hardly get the thing to turn at lower speeds without it stalling. It could be that perhaps WB's is overdone, too difficult, and unrealistic. Hard to say since I've never flown a real 190. The 190a4/a5 is reported to have been a very maneuverable aircraft, I see this in AH, but not WB, so who knows.
fscott
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Verm,
If I recall correctly, there was a passage in Bud Andersons book about how he was constantly on the trim wheels, especially during combat manoevers. Makes sense actually. I know some guys here that will trim nose up just a tad at the top end of a loop just to make the nose creep up that extra degree or two onto target.
Y
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Yeager, a turn of the wheel prior to a fight is one thing, but using trim to "fly" the plane thru every manuever like alot of people do in both games is a whole nother story.
Most of these planes didn't even have trim in more than 1 or 2 axis's that was accessible from within the cockpit.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Copy,
Too bad the trim isnt done more realistically I guess.....Doh!
Y
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The only thing wrong with CT, is that it is too fast (instant). People use it for auto trim on angle. If it is off at takeoff it should stay that way.
As far as realism is concerned. Where was the CT button located in the 109 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I have 400 plus hrs. in real a/c, and AH is currently the most realistic overall hands down IMHO.
There are problems as mentioned in previous posts above, but as a whole in comparison to anything else I've tried it's the best. Situational awareness it what I have the most trouble with in WB's, your fixed head position and dated graphics, other than that it does a good job for how old the game is FM wise considering they don't model as many details as HTC does. I expect WBIII to address these problems and improve them, we'll see.
But I'll stick with HTC always because they focus more on the air war unlike WWII Online, and IEN is on my s**t list over Dawn of Aces so no matter how good WBIII is I probably won't be spending much time there.
They are all 'works in progress' for the most part and I imagine you will see a lot of familiar faces in all flightsims out there changing their minds about which is the best currently with each new version (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ts
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I've flown for a number of years...here is my assessment...
I get the software for free.
I pay $1.00/day to play.
The AH flight model is very impressive.
There is a reason that simulators such as those for airlines, etc. cost millions. What HTC has done is to craft a FM close enough to let us have some fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Is it perfect, or precisely like real life...no...but it's close enough for me.
Ice
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I readed somewhere that the trim was indeed used to get out off compression?
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A while ago someone posted a link to a site which gave you instructions on how to effectively use your trim tabs - anyone know where that site is?
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Yes bug, when you are compressed you can raise your elevator and pull your nose up a LOT quicker, with or without the dive flaps activated. Its also mighty useful to flip your 38 over the top.
I use Combat Trim all the time except when I need to "boost" my plane with trim, at which point I go to manual trim. When I dont need the boost anymore I press "X" twice really fast to reset it to Ctrim.
One thing I would like to ask "real" pilots is the g effects. I can fly a zeke and pull a REALLY tight turn at 250mph and not black out, or not get any black out symptoms... but do it in a P-51 or any other plane, pulling with the same force on the stick at the same speed and you black out inmediately. I though plane performance was one thing and human endurance was a different matter... you should black out at the same G's no matter what plane you in (right?).
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Yes Bug you can and people did during the war use trim to get out of compression effect. Most trim controls in a/c use basically the same thing a bycicle uses to move, 2 gears and a chain/cable hook up. The sprocket at the trim control is big and the small one is on the actuator. The elevator,aileron and rudders were/are usually direct connections via cables with no mechanical assistance like gear ratios. That's what allowed pilots to overcome the effects of compression, the gearing in the trim system allowed them to move the control surface with the trim tabs while the direct connection to the stick was useless.
LOL Tac, you guys aren't 'boosting' your moves with trim anymore, HTC fixed the trim model so you can't get any more deflection of a control surface than the a/c allowed by using trim. With that said however, it still may not be 'correct'.
All you really are doing is 'relieving' or 'adjusting' your stick forces at a given airspeed when using trim. Say you have your trim set to 3/4 'down trim' and you are at a low airspeed, your joystick input is gonna be erratic and unprecise until you get the trim back in the correct envelope. This is how HTC simulates the amount of pull or stick force that is required to move the control surface at a given airspeed (it's a little more complicated than the way I've explained it though). The perception of using the trim to help get 'over the top' is just that, a perception. All you actually are doing is using a slower, more precise way to input elevator defection to carry you over the top with out stalling. If you didn't touch the trim and just used stick you would get the same result(providing you have a good precise stick and stick settings to match and a steady hand).
As far as the G effects Tac, you didn't say wether you were pulling the same amount of G's during the turn, just speed and "force on stick". I'm sure you weren't. If you look down you will see the they are much higher in the turn pulling the same amount of stick in the P51. Now if you pulled the same amount of G's in both a/c at the same speed you would find the P51 turning a wider circle than the Zeke at that airspeed and same G force. The same amount(distance of travel) of stick input is gonna give you different results in each a/c at the same airspeed and that's all due to the design, and current trim state of a/c(because that is how HTC models stick force). Stick deflection has nothing to do with G force effect directly speaking. Pull the same amount of deflection at low speed and you don't get the same G forces. Airspeed, a/c weight, and other a/c design factors affect G forces felt while flying.
ts
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Bud Anderson, in his book, reports that he used trim to pull the nose of his early model f-86 up after compressing.
CRASH
Originally posted by Vermillion:
Which is "more real" is a very hard answer Marcof, especially considering that they feel very similar in alot of ways. Most people tend to think what they are use too is "better", especially when they are fairly similar in "feel".
I do know that the AH FM handles some things that the WB FM does not. Dynamic CG's, external ordinance/drop tanks drag, and some other things that I'll let the real FM guru's talk about.
But this is very logical result considering that the AH flight models are the direct extension of the experiences learned in creating the WB flight models.
Auto Combat Trim is another difficult subject. There are several very long threads discussing just this issue from back a version ago when it was introduced.
One thing that everyone seemed to agree upon (especially real pilots), was that the way "trim" is used in WB's, and in AH, up until that point, was not very realistic in itself.
Go back and try to find accounts of pilots actively using trim during combat, and or most importantly using trim actively in turn fights to "boost" turn performance or to pull up out of compression effects. Trim just wasn't (and isn't) used that way.
So Auto Combat Trim is somewhat a concession. Please realize however that a experienced pilot using manual trim will get alot more out of his aircraft than another pilot using auto trim.
Those are just a few of the things that were brought up, so I would suggest you go back and read the old threads. They are quite informative.
Personally, I don't think Auto Combat Trim is an "easy mode" at all. It just gets you into the ballpark, it doesn't perfectly trim your aircraft. But I know others that disagree.