Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: TwentyFo on March 31, 2008, 06:05:54 PM
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Here is an interesting article in the Omaha World Herald dealing with flag desecration. It's an easy read. Please post your views.
http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_page=2798&u_sid=10298017 (http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_page=2798&u_sid=10298017)
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I am in favor of this:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
So I oppose a law abridging my freedom of speech, esp political protest. I seem to remember swearing to uphold the constitution somewhere.
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I have little problem with dimwits that want to burn their own country's flag. Might as well carry around a sign that says I'm too stupid to find a better place to live. No sweat off my back.
<edit>
So long as they don't do it your son or daughter's funeral.
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Phelps-Roper's attorney Bassel El-Kasaby.
Born: Giza, Egypt :eek: Don't think much more has to be said.
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Phelps-Roper's attorney Bassel El-Kasaby.
Born: Giza, Egypt :eek: Don't think much more has to be said.
I had Bassel (the attorney representing) as a professor in two classes, Aviation Law and Aviation Writing. He was a great teacher and I learned a lot from him. As far as I know many others can atest to the same thing. So if you think he is somehow anti-American, you are completely wrong. He is a lawyer and doing his job.
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Popular speech never needs to be protected, the first amendment exists to protect the rights of those saying/protesting the unpopular. If you outlaw flag desecration, you make a mockery of our constitution.
I might punch the flag burner, but I won't take away his right to be an ass. Someday, there might be some other unpopular cause that I find myself behind, and I might need that constitutional protection for myself.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._Johnson)
A case of this argument, a famous one. Interesting read.
edit: my original statement came out wrong.
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This is a quote published by Reuters in regards to this case.
The Supreme Court upheld the right to desecrate the flag in 1989 when it struck down Texas's conviction of Gregory Lee Johnson, a communist who burned a flag, El-Kasaby said.
"I don't agree with my client," El-Kasaby, who was hired by the American Civil Liberties Union, told Reuters. "However, I do respect and cherish the right that we all have to dissent, and that's why I'm defending her in this case."
Here is the link to the full article published in Nov. 2007.
http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSN0639371020071106 (http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSN0639371020071106)
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While I find flag desecration to be personally repugnant and deliberately insulting I have to agree that it should not be illegal. Burning the symbol of a government is a classic case of speech towards the government and should be legal. On the other hand, I feel that flag burning should also be a defense to assaulting the person doing the burning.
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Please post your views.
After you, Alphonse.
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While I do find it repugnant, I personally wouldn't ban it.
However, I would make it clearly legal for other americans to go in and "Get the Flag" should they so wish.
If burning the flag is free speech, then so is cracking a few hippie skulls to get it back.
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After you, Alphonse.
I admit, I had to google that to find out what it meant. :rofl :rofl
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If i were not in mortal fear of violating Rule 6, I would point out that Rule 17 is still in effect. But I am in mortal fear, so I will not point that out.
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There is presidence at least to protect the individual who is spurred to action by the desecration of our flag if the burning of it is defended under the 1st amedmant.
The fighting words doctrine, in United States constitutional law, is a limitation to freedom of speech as granted in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. In its 9-0 decision, Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942), the U.S. Supreme Court established the doctrine and held that "insulting or 'fighting words', those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace" are among the "well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech [which] the prevention and punishment of...have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem."
There are certain well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem. These include the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting words" those which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. It has been well observed that such utterances are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality.
– Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 1942
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If i were not in mortal fear of violating Rule 6, I would point out that Rule 17 is still in effect. But I am in mortal fear, so I will not point that out.
I get what you're saying. So here it goes.
I don't believe what the Phelps family and their church stands for. I hate the fact that they protest deaths of soldiers. They are despicable excuse for what religion is supposed to stand for. However, we do live in America and we are given the freedom of speech.
It will be interesting to see how far this case goes after it leaves Sarpy County.
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Where in there does it say burning a flag is speech?
Going out chanting and carrying around signs is speech, but I wouldn't consider burning the flag.
Of course one way to settle it is to make it illegal to start a fire in the city limits.
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Classify it as hate speech...deliberately designed to provoke the patriotic demographic groups and incite them to violent reactions. We've been traveling down THAT slippery slope for some time now.
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Where in there does it say burning a flag is speech?
Going out chanting and carrying around signs is speech, but I wouldn't consider burning the flag.
Of course one way to settle it is to make it illegal to start a fire in the city limits.
Yup and I bet when you get arrested for your weekend BBQ you'll be totally understanding about it.
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I get to exercise my means of free speech also right? What goes around, comes around.
Get off yer arse America. Take yer Country back!
Mac
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some people look for hard solutions, i look for easy solutions.
a new law, "all US flags shall be made of Nomex."
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I still have never seen how the physical act of burning a flag is protected under free speech.
That would mean that burning an effigy of a negro who was lynched would be protected to right? the "N... ooooooooowwwweee" word..
I agree that some acts and speech can be considered to be causing a riot.. I also don't think that any modern city, and face it, flag burners are city folk, no modern city allows you to set fire to anything in public.
I think that most of the flag burners can think of lots of free speech bans that they are comfortable with.. and mostly.. just words.
The hypocracy is the real deal.
lazs
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Where in there does it say burning a flag is speech?
It has been determined by finding of fact that the national flag is among other things,a political expression, therefore destroying that flag is considered an act of political speech.
I support having the right to burn the flag.
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So Lazs, before you need to go get that chip surgically removed from your shoulder, would you clarify something? It sounds as if you're in favor of outlawing this as a 'tit for tat' because the law prevents something you like. This sounds as if you're less interested in the Constitution than you are in spiting someone. A true patriot would support the right to burn the flag while working to change the injustice they saw instead of trying to drag everyone down with them.
What are your priorities?
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The low life from that church are nothing but terrorist operating under the giuse of religion. Anyone who desecrates the Flag should be locked up or shot period. Anyone who condones burning the Flag should leave the country. There are just some things you do not do.
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Shuffler: Any other parts of the Constitution you think should be thrown out?
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Burning the Flag is NOT protected by the constitution.
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Burning the Flag is NOT protected by the constitution.
No, but freedom of speech is. Burning the flag in protest of the government, within the context of peaceful dissent, must be protected as free speech or our free country drops another notch into a great has been of a nation.
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No, but freedom of speech is. Burning the flag in protest of the government, within the context of peaceful dissent, must be protected as free speech or our free country drops another notch into a great has been of a nation.
You have to draw the line. Burning the Flag in no way protests the government. The Flag is a symbol of the United States..... to desecrate it means you are against all freedoms and unity that the United States stands for.
In fact it makes the culprit a traitor to the US.
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Defining what is "speech" kinda defeats the purpose behind making it free doesn't it?
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Somewhere in the world, a group of Muslims might be talking about this thread, saying things like:
"Only extremists would advocate violence and death to someone desecrating a piece of colored cloth."
"Yeah! They shouldn't be so sensitive about symbols."
"Hey, we should all get together and flush their flags down toilets just to teach them a lesson! Damn baseballcapheads!"
"Har har!"
"Yeah! I support the Dutch burning US flags just to get a rise outta them!"
If burning a flag is a defense for violence, does it matter who or what that flag represents? Are state flags burnable? How about city flags?
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Burning the Flag is NOT protected by the constitution.
The flag is a political symbol.
Burning a political symbol is a means of political expression.
Freedom of expression = freedom of speech
Freedom of speech is protected by the constitution.
Therefore burning the flag is protected by the constitution.
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You have to draw the line. Burning the Flag in no way protests the government. The Flag is a symbol of the United States..... to desecrate it means you are against all freedoms and unity that the United States stands for.
In fact it makes the culprit a traitor to the US.
Therefore being against all freedom and unity is protected under the constitution.....it's free speech.
Here's another question...Couldn't the wearing of an American Flag (I.E. American flag underwear with skid marks, Bandannas that soak up sweat, handkerchief to wipe boogers from your nose) be considered desecration? I could almost guarantee that one of you guys reading this post has an American flag piece of clothing.
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You have to draw the line. Burning the Flag in no way protests the government. The Flag is a symbol of the United States..... to desecrate it means you are against all freedoms and unity that the United States stands for.
In fact it makes the culprit a traitor to the US.
Thats is certainly one honest way of looking at it. Here are two other ways of honestly looking at it:
a) protecting the right of fellow Americans to burn the flag, under the act of political speech, strengthens all of us. The nation is worth dying for, the flag is worth defending, but the right to dissent is fundamental to being an American.
b) allowing people to burn the flag allows the rest of us to see who they are. Having the rest of us see them for the morons they are is punishment enough.
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Well said, Yeager.
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The above posts since my last post is the reason we have so many problems in the United States.... these folks are not proud of this nation yet won't leave.
As for defining what is free and what isn't... guess your against all laws as they inhibit your freedom too. Burn the US Flag in our town and your likely to just disappear.... like many small towns there is right and wrong... none of that middle turf some of you thrill to tread in.
I'm shocked that anyone would use terrorist to try to make their point backing their Flag burning. The terrorist think less of you than the rag on their head.... to them your life and your families life means nothing.
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The above posts since my last post is the reason we have so many problems in the United States.... these folks are not proud of this nation yet won't leave.
As for defining what is free and what isn't... guess your against all laws as they inhibit your freedom too. Burn the US Flag in our town and your likely to just disappear.... like many small towns there is right and wrong... none of that middle turf some of you thrill to tread in.
your dissent is well noted.
I believe strongly in the right of people to dissent. Dissent is in many ways our primary compound as a collection of people, but I dont think a small town that would disappear someone for burning a flag is a very good thing to have in America. It reminds me of those small towns that would hang a man just for being black.
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Don't worry yeager the blacks have more rights in the US than most others now. So we are paying for what someone else did. The only bunch that might have rights equal or surpassing the blacks now are the illegals. But all that has nothing to do with Flag burning. There can be no equality without equality.
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Don't worry yeager the blacks have more rights in the US than most others now.
I'm not disagreeing with you. On the flag burning issue my thoughts have really changed over the years.
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In Canada it is OK to do a dance on the Canadian flag in a mud hole but do the same to the Quebec flag and les habitants go on beserker rampages and demand an official public apology from the Government. :rolleyes:
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Shuffler, while I disagree with you, I cherish the fact that we live in a country where your right to be silly is protected.
I wouldn't want it any other way.
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I'm not disagreeing with you. On the flag burning issue my thoughts have really changed over the years.
I must apologize for how I'm coming across. I mean you no disreaspect, however I have VERY strong feeling for my Country, Flag, and Family.
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You should have as much right to burn the flag as you would to burn other symbols of our country.
Burn the Lincoln Memorial.
Set fire to the White House.
Burn the money in your pocket.
Burn the Constitution itself.
Set fire to a flock of Bald Eagles.
Go start a fire in Arlington National Cemetary.
You wouldn't get far burning any of these things.
Burning the flag is not speech. If you can't write it down, you're not speaking. You are acting.
That's why the First Amendment protects free Speech and Press. It is the spoken word and the written word. Nothing else.
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Shuffler: I perceive is a very strong interest in the flag on your part, but an interest that overlooks the concepts that the flag stands for. Specifically, the fact that our Constitution recognizes our right to make an inflammatory (pardon the pun) political statement by burning the flag is one of the core ideals our country was founded on.
Our country is strong enough to weather the clumsy machinations of firebrands with a Wal-Mart flag (made in China) because we choose not to give them the power over us that you seem to believe exists.
My United States can't be hurt by a hippy with a pair of matches.
My nation is woven out of a fabric that burns brightly with the ideals and loyalty of millions of patriots... but never crumbles. That light has burned for over 230 years and I hope it will continue to illuminate the promise and benefits of freedom for hundreds more.
Shuffler, I hope that someday your trust in the strength of our Constitution rises to the occasion, and that your confidence in our nation can meet that of those who work and sacrifice every day to keep the promise made by Washington, Franklin, Jefferson, and the rest of our founding fathers.
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Burning the flag is a form of free speach. I would never do it, but to each their own I suppose. Point is if some idiot want's to go out and burn the American Flag, well they have that right and the luxury of living in a country that will allow them to do so in the name of free political dissent. As long as they don't try and burn "MY" American Flag I don't care what they do with theirs. Someone trys to desecrate my flag I'll beat them to a pulp.
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No, but freedom of speech is. Burning the flag in protest of the government, within the context of peaceful dissent, must be protected as free speech or our free country drops another notch into a great has been of a nation.
You REALLY think thats what the founders of this country meant when they wrote the Constitution?
What they meant was the ability to SPEAK out against thier differences.
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perhaps the SCOTUS or Congress should clarify that by speech or press means forms of communication. if they don't, well............ then I would find them in violation of Title 18 USC section 242.
If you can't write it down, you're not speaking. You are acting.
It is the spoken word and the written word. Nothing else.
these statements I find despicable.
some of the Deaf and Mute communicate by the means of hand sign languages, and these statements, in this context, are deplorable.
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You should have as much right to burn the flag as you would to burn other symbols of our country.
Burn the Lincoln Memorial.
Set fire to the White House.
Burn the money in your pocket.
Burn the Constitution itself.
Set fire to a flock of Bald Eagles.
Go start a fire in Arlington National Cemetary.
You wouldn't get far burning any of these things.
Burning the flag is not speech. If you can't write it down, you're not speaking. You are acting.
That's why the First Amendment protects free Speech and Press. It is the spoken word and the written word. Nothing else.
If I owned the Lincoln memorial or the White House, not collectively but it they were mine personally, I would have the right to destroy them.
If I buy a flag, it is mine. I can destroy or cherish it, it is my fabric.
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Your spreading cow manure pretty thin claiming burning anything is free speech. Any 5 year old can tell you the difference.
Many lawyers have problems with this but that is because stupidity is so ingrained in them that common sense checked out long ago.
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aren't federal buildings a political symbol? why not burn them?
lazs
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The Flag is a symbol of the United States..... to desecrate it means you are against all freedoms and unity that the United States stands for.
In fact it makes the culprit a traitor to the US.
What about flag boxer shorts, underwear or thongs? Should we make them illegal?
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Therefore being against all freedom and unity is protected under the constitution.....it's free speech.
Here's another question...Couldn't the wearing of an American Flag (I.E. American flag underwear with skid marks, Bandannas that soak up sweat, handkerchief to wipe boogers from your nose) be considered desecration? I could almost guarantee that one of you guys reading this post has an American flag piece of clothing.
arghh...beat me to it!
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Having flag desecration not be illegal speaks volumes for a country. Any country that establishes itself as a nation that has rights, and then turns around and calls a peaceful act of protest illegal seems hypocritical.
Sure, it pains many Americans to see our fellow countrymen burn our own flag...but many men (and sometimes women) fought & died so that they could have that right.
These folks who picket and protest at funerals are a sorry bunch...yet it's within their rights to do so. All it does is show you their true character.
If you had the chance to invite one of the two choices below into your home for a home cooked meal and a couple of hours of conversation which one would you choose to associate with?
A) A funeral protester that shows no respect for the flag
B) A soldier who has volunteered to serve their country.
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good point holden.. I will concede it.
Will you concede that if you do something that would offend a reasonable man that it is a cause for an assault?
The "N" word... burning a flag... both speech by your defenition and both protected.
I still don't see a physical act as speech but.. no matter to me. I don't even care if some dufus wants to burn the flag.. I simply hate the hypocracy of anyone who would do so but wants to make the "N" word (for instance) illegal.
I am all for free speech.. I just don't think most of it's so called advocates really are.
lazs
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Personally, rights be damned. If I see anyone ever burning my flag, I will beat them to a bloody pulp. No question. Some may not understand this. I don't ask them to. But I've spilled MY blood for MY country, My flag. Burning the flag is the biggest slap in the face to any vet of any era who gave you that right. How dare they! Flag burning should equal immediate enlistment and deployment. My personal choice would be firing squad for them, but we gotta keep America wussified, right? Remember, rights always outweigh respect, morality and patriotism any day. Pathetic.
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Burn my flag where ever you want (that is your right), just dont burn it on my soul.(that is my right)
People who do need a boot to the head, BIG time.(IMHO)
I would also go to giving anyone NOT in the military or law inforcement found wearing a mask, or trying to hide there identity INSTANT 5-10 years in jail. The police and military should hold that right to keep people's indentitys secret who serve the government or the civilian population.
I would want a thug takin' out a Swat member because he helped conduct a raid on his buddy joe joe's crack house.
And like wise, i cannot see why anyone would have the need to hide ones face if there actions are truely just and right.
Your dang right the people who burn my flag on my soul hide there faces, heaven help them if i ever catch them walkin' down my sidewalk.
But thats just my crack pot views on things.
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People who burn the Flag are not my fellow countrymen... but the lowest scum on earth. Hipocritical scum to boot.
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What about flag boxer shorts, underwear or thongs? Should we make them illegal?
It's actually not proper at all to wear the flag as a piece of clothing at all.
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Personally, rights be damned. If I see anyone ever burning my flag, I will beat them to a bloody pulp.
And unless you are a representative of government, working in a governmental capacity, you beating me up for burning the flag is not an infringment of my constitutional right to free speech, it would be simple assault and battery.
When congress passes a law that says I cannot burn the flag, THAT is what is prohibited by the 1st amendment.
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It's actually not proper at all to wear the flag as a piece of clothing at all.
A breech of etiquette is not illegal.
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At this moment in time is not burning the flag just a breech of ettiquette?
There is a great danger in placing import on symbols. America is more than a flag, the American way is more than a country.
As a bastion of democracy, the right of the individual, some here have posted with the rabid fanaticsim of jihad.
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It's actually not proper at all to wear the flag as a piece of clothing at all.
Well I can almost guarantee you that Shuffler, Laz, and a few others on this post have an American flag piece of clothing. I hate to see how bent out of shape people get about burning the flag. It's a symbol, yes I agree. However, burning a flag doesn't quietly chip away at the constitution, it doesn't take away the importance this country has played in the word. To me it simply means a burning peace of fabric. The United States means so much more than a flag. And I just wish people would realize that.
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Careful Shuff and Lazs....You'll be called sad excuses for citizens soon....
Why you guys argue with these folks....ahh well...exercise that freedom ya have. ;)
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Burning or in this case dragging it in the dirt and having her kid jump on the flag on the ground is not free speech IMO.This is an action and not a statement.Its something thats aimed at inciting desired effects from people grieving at a funeral.I think she should be deported.You wanna burn a flag?Go for it.You want to pull this at a US soilders funeral then get ready for the hammer.
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Burning or in this case dragging it in the dirt and having her kid jump on the flag on the ground is not free speech IMO.This is an action and not a statement.Its something thats aimed at inciting desired effects from people grieving at a funeral.I think she should be deported.You wanna burn a flag?Go for it.You want to pull this at a US soilders funeral then get ready for the hammer.
Didn't know the constitution was thrown in the trash for funerals.
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A breech of etiquette is not illegal.
Just shows what trash the person in it is. Not one to be trusted...
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Well I can almost guarantee you that Shuffler, Laz, and a few others on this post have an American flag piece of clothing. I hate to see how bent out of shape people get about burning the flag. It's a symbol, yes I agree. However, burning a flag doesn't quietly chip away at the constitution, it doesn't take away the importance this country has played in the word. To me it simply means a burning peace of fabric. The United States means so much more than a flag. And I just wish people would realize that.
Your wrong as usual...... I have a Flag in front of my home.. it comes down at night and is folded properly and stowed in it's own place. I have no clothing made of the flag. I have worn clothing with an American Flag patch which is acceptable. My company flies the Flag properly and stows it properly.
Your type is why this country has so many problems these days. You have to have rules otherwise we all go down the tubes.
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Your wrong as usual...... I have a Flag in front of my home.. it comes down at night and is folded properly and stowed in it's own place. I have no clothing made of the flag. I have worn clothing with an American Flag patch which is acceptable. My company flies the Flag properly and stows it properly.
Your type is why this country has so many problems these days. You have to have rules otherwise we all go down the tubes.
Answer the question! Should American Flag underwear be illegal?
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I am in favor of this:
So I oppose a law abridging my freedom of speech, esp political protest. I seem to remember swearing to uphold the constitution somewhere.
I am with Holden here.
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Answer the question! Should American Flag underwear be illegal?
For the slower individuals reading this thread.... I think that if you wear clothing made from the US Flag your of the lowest in the human species. You may as well be a terrorist.
This answer your question? Thought I made it pretty clear from my earlier posts.
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For the slower individuals reading this thread.... I think that if you wear clothing made from the US Flag your of the lowest in the human species. You may as well be a terrorist.
This answer your question? Thought I made it pretty clear from my earlier posts.
Not that I really care either way Shuffler but I think the clear answer he wants is either yes, they should be ilegal or No they should not be. ;)
I even agree with you, they are the lowerst in human scum... but, it still should be legal.
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Its not the action...its the intent.This one is clear cut IMHO.
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Freedom of speech is the most overused and abused thing in our constitution. If we truly had freedom of speech I would be able to say anything I wanted without worrying about being "PC". If I cant go to work or out in public and say what I want to say without fear of being sued or jailed for being offensive, then burning flags should be in the same category because it is offensive to many people.
A person who burns the Flag should be given two options:
1. serve 4 years in the military
2. Be placed in a room for 10 minutes with a vet who fought to protect their country.
All of the above would not be any punishment whatsoever, they would be an honor.
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Careful Shuff and Lazs....You'll be called sad excuses for citizens soon....
Goodness, that little line certainly seems to have sunk deeply into your consciousness. Thanks, it's quite a compliment.
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Its not the action...its the intent.This one is clear cut IMHO.
So you're saying burning the flag is like a voodoo doll. If you burn the final 2 stars of the flag, Hawaii and Alaska erupt in flames and disband from the union.
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Goodness, that little line certainly seems to have sunk deeply into your consciousness. Thanks, it's quite a compliment.
Take it how ya like....trust me when I say...that it wasn't meant as one however. I find that remark you made to me that time to be one of the most hateful things I've had said to me. But, that free speech thing I served in the military to protect gives ya that right. But , I wouldn't walk across the street to **** down your throat if your guts were on fire. My lil contibution to mankind.
Have a nice day ;)
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Freedom of speech is the most overused and abused thing in our constitution. If we truly had freedom of speech I would be able to say anything I wanted without worrying about being "PC". If I cant go to work or out in public and say what I want to say without fear of being sued or jailed for being offensive, then burning flags should be in the same category because it is offensive to many people.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
"Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech"
Is there a law Congress made that keeps you PC? When was the last time someone was jailed for being offensive?
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(http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6379/highhorse2qohe0.jpg)
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When was the last time someone was jailed for being offensive?
This is kinda the crux of the matter - there's no law about being a avacado.
If you really believe that the disrespect is so much that the perpertrator warrants a good kicking, you've crossed the line.
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Theres a perfect example of a true fine American who should be tied to a stake and set on fire, along with the rest of her disrespecting bunch. If you live here at least have the common decency to not desecrate the flag, but if you feel that strongly about hating America, I have a good idea, go to ANOTHER COUNTRY!
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"Irony implosion in progress. You have 60 seconds to reach minimum safe distance."
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So you're saying burning the flag is like a voodoo doll. If you burn the final 2 stars of the flag, Hawaii and Alaska erupt in flames and disband from the union.
No your not listening.This flag in this case wasnt burned.She was useing it to incite grief in people that were Burying their son.What it SHOULD be is a hate crime.Just for what she did.Not just because she did it to the flag.
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This is kinda the crux of the matter - there's no law about being a avacado.
If you really believe that the disrespect is so much that the perpertrator warrants a good kicking, you've crossed the line.
You are missing the point. If I go to work tomorrow and offend someone, my job is potentially in jeopardy. Why? My freedom of speech allows me to say what I want right? Naturally common sense plays in because I am not one to be offensive. I have respect. Freedom comes with a heavy price. Multiple thousands of men and women have died to fight for our country, which is symbolized by the flag. Look at the marines who raised the flag under heavy fire, risking death. This is not some trivial thing that is to be taken lightly.
If I am over the line by wanting to beat the crap out of someone who disrespects what I personally have fought for than so be it.
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If I go to work tomorrow and offend someone, my job is potentially in jeopardy. Why? My freedom of speech allows me to say what I want right? Naturally common sense plays in because I am not one to be offensive. I have respect.
A lot of freedoms are forfeited as soon as you walk into your office building or wherever you work. I'm sure you signed a document that basically stated "that you would follow company policy, if you do not then you may be terminated." Another example of not being able to express freedom of speech is this forum. When we sign up for this forum we agree to follow the rules, if we do not then we could be banned. What I'm trying to say is that we compromise our freedoms everyday.
Side note: It's funny to see all the 2nd amendment advocates be against 1st amendment privileges.
I despise everything the Phelps family stands for. One thing you have to realize is that they aren't complete idiots. Some of the followers have law degrees and study the limits of the law so they can tight rope it and not get in trouble.
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You are missing the point. If I go to work tomorrow and offend someone, my job is potentially in jeopardy. Why? My freedom of speech allows me to say what I want right? Naturally common sense plays in because I am not one to be offensive. I have respect. Freedom comes with a heavy price. Multiple thousands of men and women have died to fight for our country, which is symbolized by the flag. Look at the marines who raised the flag under heavy fire, risking death. This is not some trivial thing that is to be taken lightly.
If I am over the line by wanting to beat the crap out of someone who disrespects what I personally have fought for than so be it.
Not a problem. Somebody burns a flag and risks being beaten by an outraged citizen. Outraged citizen risks being jailed for Assault and Battery. Flag burner does not risk jailtime, flagburner risks outraging a Marine. Their is no law against outraging somebody, and that's the way it should be.
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What city in this country can you light something on fire and burn it?
Go ahead.. light your trash from the fast food place on fire in the middle of the street and say it is a freedom of speech thing.
lazs
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Lazs, can you give a yes or no answer specifically on whether you think there should be a law that explicitly makes flag desecration illegal? Let's see just how far your dislike of big government, overlegislation, and respect for the bill of rights go.
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Some of the followers have law degrees and study the limits of the law so they can tight rope it and not get in trouble.
Having a degree in anything is no sign of intelligence. All it means is they went to school a bit longer. I know several degreed individuals that I would not let watch my dog.
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good point holden.. I will concede it.
Will you concede that if you do something that would offend a reasonable man that it is a cause for an assault?
The "N" word... burning a flag... both speech by your defenition and both protected.
I still don't see a physical act as speech but.. no matter to me. I don't even care if some dufus wants to burn the flag.. I simply hate the hypocracy of anyone who would do so but wants to make the "N" word (for instance) illegal.
I am all for free speech.. I just don't think most of it's so called advocates really are.
lazs
Freedom of speech is freedom of speech regardless of what the person exercising that right wants to say- even if they use (gasp) the N word.
Obviously if you create a hostile working enviroment by calling some of your co-workers the (gasp) N word you risk losing your job- but hey, we live in a right to work state so you have no right to a job in the first place. :)
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Not a problem. Somebody burns a flag and risks being beaten by an outraged citizen. Outraged citizen risks being jailed for Assault and Battery. Flag burner does not risk jailtime, flagburner risks outraging a Marine. Their is no law against outraging somebody, and that's the way it should be.
Your meaning that if someone came up to your child and showed them pics of beheaded, dismembered bodies covered in flies that your only recourse is to grab your child and leave. Although your child is part of the future of our country, he/she is not the symbol of our country. Symbolism is important enough in this country that the Bald Eagle is protected... by law.
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Symbolism is important enough in this country that the Bald Eagle is protected... by law.
It's like you're deliberately trying to see how many misinterpretations or falsehoods you can inject into a single subject. I can't tell if it's innocent ignorance or willful malice.
The Bald Eagle is protected by the Migratory Bird Treaty Act, not because of its symbolism. If you're getting THIS one wrong along with so much else, it might be time to sit down and do a quick self evaluation.
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Your meaning that if someone came up to your child and showed them pics of beheaded, dismembered bodies covered in flies that your only recourse is to grab your child and leave. Although your child is part of the future of our country, he/she is not the symbol of our country. Symbolism is important enough in this country that the Bald Eagle is protected... by law.
LOL, the Bald Eagle is protected cause it's a raptor, and ALL raptors are protected. It's not protected because it's a "symbol." Cheeesh man. :) And the only time I've heard of protesters showing people pictures of bloody lumps of flesh is at anti abortion protests. Avoid visiting Planned Parenthood with your kids and you should be OK.
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if you burn leaves it's air pollution, if you burn the flag it's freedom of speech. ?????
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if you burn leaves it's air pollution, if you burn the flag it's freedom of speech. ?????
If you burn a flag, you could get a ticket for burning something, or violating an antipollution ordinance, you just cannot get arrested for desecration.
If you went up to a nativity scene in front of the Baptist church and burned it you would be arrested for arson and vandalism, not blasphemy.
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If you burn a flag, you could get a ticket for burning something, or violating an antipollution ordinance, you just cannot get arrested for desecration.
If you went up to a nativity scene in front of the Baptist church and burned it you would be arrested for arson and vandalism, not blasphemy.
What if the Baby Jeebus was wrapped in an American flag?
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I have no problem with burning a flag.. I would have no problem (if I were on the jury) in letting the guy off who beat the crap out of the flag burner tho.
He was simply asking for it. He has the right to do it.. he should also take responsibility for the actions it causes.
For instance.. there is no law against someone telling yu what a potato your mom is and going into a lengthy description... might even be a well meaning (to him) christian type.. it is free speech.. more speech than burning something but.. he should expect someone might beat the crap out of him.
lazs
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I'll just rip off Holden's response on this one:
The flag is a political symbol.
Burning a political symbol is a means of political expression.
Freedom of expression = freedom of speech
Freedom of speech is protected by the constitution.
Therefore burning the flag is protected by the constitution.
As I recall, my enlistment oath said nothing about the flag. It focused on that Constitution thingy. I personally appreciate the differences that set us apart for the People's Republic of China, North Korea, Iran, etc. To get all Goodwin's law lets throw in the old "Blood and Iron" and to give Uncle Joe his due, the Hammer and Sickle. I wonder if there are any Chinese that might like to burn a flag over Tibet... Oops, don't want that bullet in the head I guess or perhaps a kind and gentle couple of years in a reeducation camp.
Trash the bill of rights and that flag is just a piece of cloth to me, of no more value than the sheet on my bed.
Charon
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I'll just rip off Holden's response on this one:
As I recall, my enlistment oath said nothing about the flag. It focused on that Constitution thingy. I personally appreciate the differences that set us apart for the People's Republic of China, North Korea, Iran, etc. To get all Goodwin's law lets throw in the old "Blood and Iron" and to give Uncle Joe his due, the Hammer and Sickle. I wonder if there are any Chinese that might like to burn a flag over Tibet... Oops, don't want that bullet in the head I guess or perhaps a kind and gentle couple of years in a reeducation camp.
Trash the bill of rights and that flag is just a piece of cloth to me, of no more value than the sheet on my bed.
Charon
"Trash the bill of rights and that flag is just a piece of cloth to me, of no more value than the sheet on my bed."
yea I feel sooo much safer knowing that your protecting me and my country, just remember that its the bill of rights, that gives you the right to that free speech to say you have no problem burning the Bill of rights, and the flag in the first place.
Maybe you should consider undoing your oath to the United States, and moving to a third world country.
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DMF,
I think you missed something in Charon's post there. He was not dissing the flag at all. What he was saying is that the constitution and the BoR are the thing that the country is formed upon, not the flag. If you remove the constitution and the rights we are guaranteed because of it, we are no longer the nation that was started 200+ years ago, we would be another banana republic. We would not have the right to claim a symbol of freedom in that situation.
His statement about the oath of office is the same as it is for the President on down. You do not swear to uphold and defend the flag, you swear to uphold and defend the constitution. The constitution is the basis of the government not the cloth waving above the building.
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And if you remove the flag, you remove the symbol of our country, maybe he can live without a symbol, but theres the other 98% of us that feel pride when he see the flag and get killing mad when we see it dissed.
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My nation can't be threatened by a hippy with matches. You seem convinced that our country is quite a bit weaker, DMF, and I don't understand why.
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Don't accuse me of saying America is weak, I said we feel PRIDE when we see the flag and get KILLING MAD when we see it dissed. the only weakness in this world is our enemies. Enemies of the United States, both foreign and domestic. I may not be military but I'll fight to the death for my child, my country, and my freedom.
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I said we feel PRIDE when we see the flag and get KILLING MAD when we see it dissed.
Which if acted upon makes you a domestic enemy of the Constitution.
:aok
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If I may. you (the USA) saved my country of residence from Japanese invasion, you freed my european family from occupation. Whilst decades have passed and some things you do have flown in the face of popular opinion I understand there are many thousands of the sons of your country who have fought and died under your flag in foreign lands. Don't think for 1 minute that other world citizens remain emotionally unaffected by the sight of a USA flag on fire. Unfortunately freedom of expression is a 2 edged sword and your constitution is able to be manipulated for ends not seen on it's formation. I think in Australia it is against the law to burn the flag in public as it is in France, but we can't buy hand guns.
My point is the USA is advanced democracy, unfortunately some sections of the population haven't quite gathered that. Respect dictates that ones national symbol is sacred. You may have a right to do something, but a responsibility not to.
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I have no problem with burning a flag.. I would have no problem (if I were on the jury) in letting the guy off who beat the crap out of the flag burner tho.
He was simply asking for it. He has the right to do it.. he should also take responsibility for the actions it causes.
For instance.. there is no law against someone telling yu what a potato your mom is and going into a lengthy description... might even be a well meaning (to him) christian type.. it is free speech.. more speech than burning something but.. he should expect someone might beat the crap out of him.
lazs
Free Speech goes Hand in Hand with Responsibility of what you say and Respect in the terms that you say it.
Seems like some Kalifornian Libruls like anything Free.
I LMAO at you Lazs everytime you post.
Mac
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...On the other hand, I feel that flag burning should also be a defense to assaulting the person doing the burning.
Amen to that!
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chair.. did I answer your question? the flag is just a flag. the n word is just a word.. a cross is just a cross and a picture of the prophet is just a picture.
Now.. I also realize that to some people these are sacred symbols or taboo things.. you mess with that at your own peril. I believe that any reasonable man would not be surprised if such shock tactics illicited a violent response.
I would take things case by case but would have to find that a flag burner getting the crap beat out of him got exactly what he asked for and deserved.
Should there be a law? should there be such a thing as a "hate" crime or taboo words? no.. of course not.. affirmative action or special treatment by race? no.. of course not. Should there be a law against saying your mother is probly a potato? of course not but.. you do these things at your peril. There is no law against yelling "fire" in a crowded room or "bomb" at an airport if there really is one.. if there is not and you cause injury.. you should be liable... just as you should be liable for any riot you cause with your "free speech"
It would all go to "reasonable man" defense in my opinion. An attack on the person burning a flag at an art gallery would be far different than burning it in front of a group of grief stricken mourners at a military funeral for instance.
This is not to be confused with any "gray area" type of reasoning. there is an absolute right to free speech.. I am merely saying that free speech should come with responsibility for consequence.
lazs
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Lazs, sounds like we agree, and thanks for clarifying. You never struck me as a wishy-washy sit on the fence sort, I'm glad this got sorted out.
I believe the 'OUTLAW IT!!!11!1!!eleventy!!' posts indicate a very basic lack of understanding about the Constitution, our nation, and the Bill of Rights.
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well... maybe we might diverge here... There should be no law forbidding it but.
The act is not, in my opinion, "free speech" it is an act devoid of speech. It should not be protected under any special free speech law.. if there are laws against setting fires in a city then flag burning should not be protected from them. burning flags are the same as burning anything. littering is littering.. whatever.
To make special laws to protect flag burning is as abhorent to me as making special laws to protect the right to do so.
lazs
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Nope, no disagreement that I see. If setting a flag on fire creates a fire hazard, then it should be treated no differently than a bedsheet or linen being set fire in the same context. The constitutionally ignorant in this thread are advocating special laws making flag desecration specifically illegal, and that's my objection.
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Do you object to a special law the protects flag burning over say.. linen. that flag burning is free speech say but burning your jacket is not?
lazs
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I don't get it. Can you make it simpler for my weak, commie pinko mind to understand? ;)
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Face it some folks here in the US do not care about our Flag or what it stands for. Those types are not to be trusted.
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Face it some folks here in the US do not care about our Flag or what it stands for. Those types are not to be trusted.
I disagree Shuffler- if they didn't care about the flag they wouldn't burn it, would they? As a matter of fact flag burners understand the flag is a symbol of America.
Anyways I've always said "show me someone who has time to protest any cause and I'll show you someone who has way too much time on their hands."
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Laz,
You have a little dog humping your leg, I think his name is Mac. Carefull, he may leave a stain. :O :rofl
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It seems, Shuffler, that you care only for the flag, at the expense of what it stands for. If you truly profess to love your country, you may wish to further research what it's made of. The tactics you keep suggesting of making laws preventing specifically flag burning are better suited for a totalitarian regime with no freedom of speech.
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It seems, Shuffler, that you care only for the flag, at the expense of what it stands for. If you truly profess to love your country, you may wish to further research what it's made of. The tactics you keep suggesting of making laws preventing specifically flag burning are better suited for a totalitarian regime with no freedom of speech.
Thats a nice avatar.Thinking about steal....er...finding it. :D
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It seems, Shuffler, that you care only for the flag, at the expense of what it stands for. If you truly profess to love your country, you may wish to further research what it's made of. The tactics you keep suggesting of making laws preventing specifically flag burning are better suited for a totalitarian regime with no freedom of speech.
I see your still sitting on your unamerican purch. If you condone Flag burning I can guarantee I love this country far more than you.
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Thats a nice avatar.Thinking about steal....er...finding it. :D
Stealing avatars is mean man. MEAN. Only a bunch of real mean type people would do that! ;)
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I see your still sitting on your unamerican purch. If you condone Flag burning I can guarantee I love this country far more than you.
Hey, if it makes you feel better to believe that, go for it. You've demonstrated how little you understand about the Bill of Rights, the circumstances surrounding the foundation of our nation, and consequently the exact value of your uninformed input.
Don't let anything like the facts get in the way of... well, whatever it is you're doing there.
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I see your still sitting on your unamerican purch. If you condone Flag burning I can guarantee I love this country far more than you.
I haven't seen anything from Chairboy that would make anyone think he condones flag burning. All I see is a very rational thought about why it shouldn't be outlawed and I agree with him.
The founding fathers made it very clear in the Bill of Rights, the Consitution, and the Declaration of Independance, that the one thing we as American citizens should hold most dear to our hearts is that the government was not established to rule over us. Passing a law to make burning the flag a crime denies everyone the right to express their dissatifaction with they government. Political dissent is a right in this country that no other country on the planet can match.
Look at some of the post right here in the O'Club talking about Bush, or Clinton for that matter just to cover all the bases. In many other countries you would find yourself in jail if not shot for talking that way about the political leaders running the country.
I don't like seeing anyone desecrating the flag, but they have the right to express their disproval of this government, and if that's how they choose to do it, well they have to live with themselves.
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Stealing avatars is mean man. MEAN. Only a bunch of real mean type people would do that! ;)
I think he just wanted to see his avatar tatooed on all you guys. :aok
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I see your still sitting on your unamerican purch. If you condone Flag burning I can guarantee I love this country far more than you.
Here we go, trying to figure out who is more American. I think Frederick Douglas said it best.....
"A true patriot is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins"
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Here we go, trying to figure out who is more American. I think Frederick Douglas said it best.....
"A true patriot is a lover of his country who rebukes and does not excuse its sins"
Sounds like Bill Cosby.
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Sounds like Bill Cosby.
It's true
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It's true
No argument from me, I rebuke liberals every chance I get.
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I don't see how what chairboy is saying can be considered unamerican.
I believe that he is saying is the essence of American.
chair... sorry about the seeming oversimplification. Since I often offend both/all camps with the dreaded individualism streak....
I tend to overclarify so that someone doesn't feel betrayed later on.
lazs
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yea I feel sooo much safer knowing that your protecting me and my country, just remember that its the bill of rights, that gives you the right to that free speech to say you have no problem burning the Bill of rights, and the flag in the first place.
Maybe you should consider undoing your oath to the United States, and moving to a third world country.
I am no longer in the military -- 7 years was enough. But I consider that time to have been some of the most important time I have ever spent in my life, even if I was just a small, relatively unimportant cog in the big green machine. As for the oath -- hey, it was worth dying for if it had ever come to that so, if you can get your mind around it, I find your comments probably as offensive as you found mine.
I really don't think you understand the Bill of Rights at all. I think you understand a cartoon version of freedom, coupled with a good dose of arm chair patriotism. The freedoms we enjoy in America are rare and precious, and sometimes disagreeable. Burning a flag is disagreeable to many. Owning a firearm is disagreeable to many. Not allowing the police full, easy access to our homes to get tough on crime is disagreeable to many. But guess frickin what. Freedom isn't cheap, easy or always pleasant. It isn't orderly. But fortunately we have a Bill of Rights that keeps the arm chair patriots in our midst from making us much less free and much less of a county to be proud of.
And I believe it is the third world countries, totalitarian regimes and dictatorships where you are killed or imprisoned for having incorrect political thoughts and where you most certainly cannot burn a flag. It sounds like you would be far more at home there than I would. Maybe they could even give you a nice brown uniform to run around in looking for flag burners and others that don't show the appropriate state approved (and maybe even majority of the population approved) version of patriotism.
Charon
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Which if acted upon makes you a domestic enemy of the Constitution.
:aok
All the while you politically correct liberals are destroying this country while you call those of us who are loyal to this country enemy's
little boy don't EVER call me a domestic enemy of the Constitution, My father served to protect the Constitution and flag, my Grandfather, his father, everybody in my family tree has served or is currently serving.
Go call somebody who is willing to listen to stupid people like you a enemy of the Constitution.
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I may not be military but I'll fight to the death for my child, my country, and my freedom.
Golf clap.
My father served to protect the Constitution and flag, my Grandfather, his father, everybody in my family tree has served or is currently serving.
Go call somebody who is willing to listen to stupid people like you a enemy of the Constitution.
I have respect for your relatives.
Charon
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Thank you, from me and my entire family
including my Korean war vet neighbor who owns a gun just waiting for some liberal tree huger to touch his flag.
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Golf clap.
I have respect for your relatives.
Charon
Charon,
Sometimes I just don't see why you bother, some people are just not smart enough to get it.
It does not seem like a hard concept really, you know, the Bill Of Rights and Constitution are what make the flag have meaning and this Nation great, without them it’s just another flag.
It is really sad to see people defending the flag so vigorously without understanding what it stands for.
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It is really sad to see people defending the flag so vigorously without understanding what it stands for.
Gto I Must resist...
Help me brother.
Must be strong...
No... No... Goodwin's Law... Goodwin's Law must not be...
Arrgh!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg1mv6mxY8U&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg1mv6mxY8U&feature=related)
I'm so weak.
Charon
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Charon,
Sometimes I just don't see why you bother, some people are just not smart enough to get it.
It does not seem like a hard concept really, you know, the Bill Of Rights and Constitution are what make the flag have meaning and this Nation great, without them it’s just another flag.
It is really sad to see people defending the flag so vigorously without understanding what it stands for.
Last time I checked, it stands for citizenship in the United States of America.
but just in case you mean to say what the flag means, here a website you might want to pass along
http://www.usflag.org/colors.html
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Stuck.
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oh why? oh why do some of yall, have battles of wits with the unarmed?
in need of such a hollow victory?
usually when I see a "swoosh".
I cease and desist, and ignore further comments from such.
it is painful to see such things continuously.
it is a constant reminder of our tax dollars used for a failed education.
:noid :cry
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The flag in hands of the enemy is just a piece of cloth...SERE School
This is a democracy and the right to criticize our government is one of our basic rights. And we may not like the way some wish to express their displeasure but that is their right. To them the flag is nothing. It is just a piece of cloth. They have never been in a life or death situation for their country and until they are they just won't understand. Kind of like religion. You believe or you don't. Politicians like to bring up this subject to make themselves look more patriotic and to hide the fact that they do nothing about the real problems. Don't be a pawn.
Maybe the next time a politician brings this up someone should ask how come we have the highest murder rate of any industrialized nation. Or how come our students rank so low when compared to most other countries, including many third world nations. Immigration, Iraq, poverty (in America), working poor.. the list goes on and on before we get to flag burning.
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Rule #4
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Rule #4
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cf. Plato's distrust of images.
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Rule #4
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That's it!! I'm moving to Canada!!! The homeless people up there make more money panhandling than I make in a real job, plus they have better pot!
Bye.
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Hitler server his country too.
How did he serve Austria? Seems like he served a foreign country: Deutschland.
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He served Austria by leaving. :lol
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He served the globe by dieing. Way later than he should have though. :mad:
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yes... it should be outlawed or better yet, send the flag burners permanently to the country that they think is better than the one their living in now.
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Baddog, consider reaquainting yourself with the relevant writings by our founding fathers, you seem to have lost touch with the ideals our nation was founded on.
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Baddog, consider reaquainting yourself with the relevant writings by our founding fathers, you seem to have lost touch with the ideals our nation was founded on.
Not at all chairboy... Freedom of speech allows anyone to say anything about this country and it's government but
burning the flag to me is a slap in the face to all that fought for this country and the flag they would salute every day.
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Wow, this thread got to be teh ugly. :frown:
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Not at all chairboy... Freedom of speech allows anyone to say anything about this country and it's government but
burning the flag to me is a slap in the face to all that fought for this country and the flag they would salute every day.
People not understanding the basics of philosophy today is a slap in the face of two and a half thousand years of epistemology.
The flag is just an idea. America is an idea.. Burning a flag changes nothing in those ideas. Putting a piece of cloth on the same level as ideas is a disproportionate compliment or insult (for lack of better antonym) for the piece of cloth or idea, respectively.
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yes... it should be outlawed or better yet, send the flag burners permanently to the country that they think is better than the one their living in now.
New Zealand doesn't allow immigration- I checked.
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New Zealand doesn't allow immigration- I checked.
LOL good thing for New Zealand. :)
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So NZ is racist now since they don't allow immigration...............
:P
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"Flag Desecration.....should it be outlawed?"
NO!
It may be in poor taste or get others really pissed, but if the flag burner burned their own flag, on their own or public property, that the physical burning act wasn't a threat, then let them burn it.
Doesn't mean that I have to agree with them or like it.
Kind of the same with the KKK or other white supremest group having a public march holding signs putting down Jews or Blacks.
True freedom protects the offensive, ugly, and stupid as well. If we chip away at that, then we start stripping away our true freedoms.
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Yes, it should be a felony with garunteed prison time.
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Nothing much more really to say, except this is how we lose freedom.
Just to repeat. A lot of people don't like me owning a gun. A lot of people don't like when some moron burns a flag because he believes meat is murder (perhaps with full sincerity and not just to get laid by the cute redhead holding he sign next to him). Plenty of people (the Anti-Defamation League springs to mind, as an example) don't believe hate groups should be allowed to express their opinions on the internet. Plenty of people would go along with warrantless searches and the removal of Miranda to get tough on crime. And there are certainly those who wouldn't stop at flag burning but strongly believe that any criticism of the leader or government in a time of war is treason.
I would rather err on the side of freedom. I can’t imagine a circumstance where, in my lifetime, burning a flag has been justified. Most seem to be empty headed gestures likely focused on enhancing the burner’s social status among his or her empty headed peers. Most of the events being protested took place fully within the confines of our functioning political system. If you were upset you could perhaps fly a flag upside down, or burn Carter or Clinton or Bush in effigy or just carry a sign that would perhaps open a fence setters mind and be more logically appropriate.
But, that does not mean the day will never come where we live under a totalitarian state. Perhaps a George Bush type, or maybe a Ted Kennedy – take your pick. Nuclear terrorism, a pandemic, full economic collapse – none beyond the scope of possibility and the interim measures become more permanent, and enough people and enough of the military support the idea of extended martial law, etc. That’s really how dictatorships develop and sustain. There has to be at least some, but most likely a majority of support from the population. Totalitarian regeims primarily suck if you are a minority or independent thinker, etc. And, at that point, once it has slipped that far down the slope, you’re probably more worried about saying something against the government in front of your neighbors or children than giving thought to any public protest.
We are already slipping so readily away from the BOR in so many areas today, facilitated by the shocking inattention of the American people. So, I’ll tolerate some moron burning the flag for as long as the flag represents freedom. After that, it would be hard to care either way.
It's no surprise that Ron Paul has a common sense view on the issue:
Unfortunately, Congress has long since disregarded the original intent of the Founders and has written a lot of laws regulating private property and private conduct. But I would ask my colleagues to remember that every time we write a law to control private behavior, we imply that somebody has to arrive with a gun, because if you desecrate the flag, you have to punish that person. So how do you do that? You send an agent of the government, perhaps an employee of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Flags, to arrest him. This is in many ways patriotism with a gun – if your actions do not fit the official definition of a "patriot,'' we will send somebody to arrest you.
Fortunately, Congress has models of flag desecration laws. For example, Saddam Hussein made desecration of the Iraq flag a criminal offense punishable by up to 10 years in prison.
It is assumed that many in the military support this amendment, but in fact there are veterans who have been great heroes in war on both sides of this issue. I would like to quote a past national commander of the American Legion, Keith Kreul. He said: "Our Nation was not founded on devotion to symbolic idols, but on principles, beliefs and ideals expressed in the Constitution and its Bill of Rights. American veterans who have protected our banner in battle have not done so to protect a golden calf. Instead, they carried the banner forward with reverence for what it represents, our beliefs and freedom for all. Therein lies the beauty of our flag. A patriot cannot be created by legislation."
Secretary of State, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and two-time winner of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, Colin Powell has also expressed opposition to amending the constitution in this manner: "I would not amend that great shield of democracy to hammer out a few miscreants. The flag will be flying proudly long after they have slunk away."
Mr. Speaker, this amendment will not even reach the majority of cases of flag burning. When we see flag burning on television, it is usually not American citizens, but foreigners who have strong objections to what we do overseas, burning the flag. This is what I see on television and it is the conduct that most angers me.
One of the very first laws that Red China passed upon assuming control of Hong Kong was to make flag burning illegal. Since that time, they have prosecuted some individuals for flag burning. Our State Department keeps records of how often the Red Chinese persecute people for burning the Chinese flag, as it considers those prosecutions an example of how the Red Chinese violate human rights. Those violations are used against Red China in the argument that they should not have most-favored-nation status. There is just a bit of hypocrisy among those members who claim this amendment does not interfere with fundamental liberties, yet are critical of Red China for punishing those who burn the Chinese flag.
Charon
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Looks like those of you who want to jail flag burners should immigrate to Red China...they seem to agree with your viewpoint on civil rights.
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Looks like those of you who want to jail flag burners should immigrate to Red China...they seem to agree with your viewpoint on civil rights.
or they could go to Iran, they burn American flags there all the time. I did not know Iran had a first amendment.
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Burning the US flag in Iran would be the same as burning the flag of say Ethiopia in the US. It's not the same venue. If you want to make a more acurate analogy you should have the protester in iran burning say a picture of mohammed. That would incite several there just like burning a flag would in the US.
I said it before but I'll clarify it again. I don't like burning the flag and it upsets me quite a bit. I do, however, believe that it should not be a crime to do so as it is a valid expression of speech against a government. That is what the founding fathers wanted to preserve. I may not like it but to paraphrase a famous speech I must defend their right to do so.
I do think that flag burning should also be a reasonable defense to assaulting the flag burner by another who was offended but I seriously doubt it is really possible.
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" There is just a bit of hypocrisy among those members who claim this amendment does not interfere with fundamental liberties, yet are critical of Red China for punishing those who burn the Chinese flag."
But only a bit :P
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How to make a lot of money quickly.
Step 1: Get an American Flag
Step 2: Go to the busiest intersection in town.
Step 3: Light the flag on fire.
Step 4: Get severly beaten.
Step 5: SUE, SUE, SUE
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I see nothing in this definition that relates to anything but the spoken or gestured word. So no, I do not think it should be legal to burn our nations flag.
speech
–noun 1. the faculty or power of speaking; oral communication; ability to express one's thoughts and emotions by speech sounds and gesture: Losing her speech made her feel isolated from humanity.
2. the act of speaking: He expresses himself better in speech than in writing.
3. something that is spoken; an utterance, remark, or declaration: We waited for some speech that would indicate her true feelings.
4. a form of communication in spoken language, made by a speaker before an audience for a given purpose: a fiery speech.
5. any single utterance of an actor in the course of a play, motion picture, etc.
6. the form of utterance characteristic of a particular people or region; a language or dialect.
7. manner of speaking, as of a person: Your slovenly speech is holding back your career.
8. a field of study devoted to the theory and practice of oral communication.
Felt like I probably needed to go ahead and add this definition in also.
ges·ture
–noun 1. a movement or position of the hand, arm, body, head, or face that is expressive of an idea, opinion, emotion, etc.: the gestures of an orator; a threatening gesture.
2. the use of such movements to express thought, emotion, etc.
3. any action, courtesy, communication, etc., intended for effect or as a formality; considered expression; demonstration: a gesture of friendship.
–verb (used without object) 4. to make or use a gesture or gestures.
–verb (used with object) 5. to express by a gesture or gestures.
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Acfireguy26, so you're saying that there is no freedom of the press? I don't see written communication covered there in your definitons, by your logic, it is also unprotected. What's interesting is that the burning of a flag is actually covered by the third definition of gesture you provided.
It's ironic, you simultaneously decried written freedom while bolstering the case of those who disagree with your assertion. If you were a US pilot in WWII, this might get you the Iron Cross. ;)
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What's interesting is that the burning of a flag is actually covered by the third definition of gesture you provided.
wrong
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ges·ture
–noun 1. a movement or position of the hand, arm, body, head, or face that is expressive of an idea, opinion, emotion, etc.: the gestures of an orator; a threatening gesture.
2. the use of such movements to express thought, emotion, etc.
3. any action, courtesy, communication, etc., intended for effect or as a formality; considered expression; demonstration: a gesture of friendship.
–verb (used without object) 4. to make or use a gesture or gestures.
–verb (used with object) 5. to express by a gesture or gestures.
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so if i punched a flag burner i would be making a "ges-ture" of my dissatisfaction of their political views?
sounds OK by me. :D
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I'd stuff the flag down his pants, but that's just me :P
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Our views were called for so here 'tis mine:
I have read the responses and wanted to get a feel for others' views before posting. It is kind of difficult to address because I believe there are two different items in confusion 1) constitutionality in regards to flag burning laws 2) Congress amending the Constitution to prohibit flag desecration as a criminal action.
Some of my thoughts in this post have resulted from reading Dr. Ron Paul's views on the subject. I believe he has covered it pretty well. I am by no means a constitutional scholar, so credit goes to Dr. Paul for the correct points and to me for the incorrect ones.
I suppose the first place to start is my views on the news story which was the topic starter. Personally, I think flag burners are unpatriotic attention seekers. Burning a flag is the political equivalent of a child throwing a temper tantrum. If they hate America enough to burn the flag then they have freedom to leave.
The flag does not represent a political viewpoint or philosophy. It is certainly not a political symbol. It does represent us all who are Americans, past, present and future. I hope the SC decision regarding the constitutionality of state laws dealing with flag burning is overturned some day. The woman in the story is guilty as charged, and she did violate laws on the books concerning flag mistreatment. There are reasons for these laws to maintain the peace. To do this at a military funeral is disgusting beyond belief.
I believe anyone willfully and maliciously desecrating the flag should be arrested, fined and jailed. That's my personal point of view. If this were to be put up for a vote to become state law, that is how I would vote. If the state adopted this as law, I think it would be constitutional because... anything not specifically allowed Congress by the Constitution is allowed to the states to decide.
A common misconception is that the Bill of Rights grants us rights. Actually the Bill of Rights lists what Congress cannot do. Constitutionally speaking, Congress is not allowed to make any law prohibiting freedom of speech. A state, however, may see the act of burning a flag as disruptive of the peace. This would be completely constitutional, i.e. Congress is prohibited from making such laws but states are not. It would be up to the states to enforce the laws and provide funding for enforcement as they see fit.
So you can be for state laws against flag burning and defend the Constitution at the same time. As long as Congress isn't involved, it is constitutional. I honestly have thought about this topic for several days. It really bothered me because the free speech arguments (here and elsewhere) are cleverly laid out to imply if someone is against flag burning then they must not believe in freedom. This just didn't sound "right" to me. Even though flag burning is repugnant, it's the right of the individual if they feel like doing it. Well I don't believe that at all. I don't buy that American soldiers died in war so flag burners could have their freedom of speech in the form of burning our national symbol.
The only way it could be connected to freedom of speech is because Congress is considering an amendment to the Constitution regarding flag desecration. This in and of itself is not a constitutional issue, however, usage of the term "desecration" and ensuing laws would be problematical, and this is where I believe the confusion and controversy lies.
Les
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It's just a symbol. What it represents is above and beyond material combustion.
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I think flag burning should always be protected under the First Amendment.
I also think that people who pummel flag burners should be protected under Common Sense.