Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Vulcan on April 06, 2008, 07:03:38 PM
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I'm looking for some advice. My rabbit hunting success with my air rifle has gotten me interested in going further (the edge of my hunting area borders a forest with pig, goats, and deer).
So I've applied for a NZ Firearms license which will let me buy a "real" rifle.
I still want to bunny hunt. But if you want to shoot in National Parks/Forests it appears you must use a centrefire rifle. So I've been looking around at costs, performance, weights etc.
From what I can tell my best choices are something like .223 Ruger Mini 14, maybe something like a 22 Hornet (seem rare here), or maybe a 22-250?
I don't want something to heavy, nor something thats going to rip a bunny to shreds (ie want to keep the maat). Keep in mind NZ heavily restricts the use of fully automatics, cannons, artillery, guided and unguided missles - and none of these would be suitable (we're also Nuclear Free in case you forgot).
Any advice/recommendations?
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.17 hmr
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.17 hmr
sorry, I forgot it had to be centerfire. Try this:
http://www.smallcaliber.com/feature.htm
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22-250 would be a bit much I think for small game.
In our house we used .22 Hornet (do they still make it?)
These days I'd use my M1 .30 Carbine. (I think Dad gave the Hornet to my brother).
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If you are going to hunt goats pigs and deer then may I suggest for the animals sake use a larger caliber then .223 so they don't suffer OR be an excellent shot, OR IMHO it is far better if you do both.
Pigs can be hard to kill and can be dangerous!
Deer can be hard to kill but aren't so dangerous.
Can't say much about goats.
Suggest 6mm?, a .270, 7mm, .30 something with a little more reach. Not that you should use them at distances greater then perhaps 200 yards mind you.
You want something with some punch to insure a quick clean taking of the animal.
As to the bunnys might want to stay with your pellet gun for them?
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pig and deer .243 Winchester is about as small as you want to go. it'll work fine on goats too. for rabbits, make it is headshots and you'll be ok. saw a guy nail one with a body shot, didn't look too bad, we never got to skin it. the pack of dogs got a hold of it and ripped it to pieces.
BAR .243 (Browning semi auto)
Savage Model 110 bolt action .243 is a good one. (own both, good guns)
or a Stevens .243.
what ever you get, if you are using open sights, get the gun with Williams sights installed. in my personal experience Williams sights are far better than any other I've ever used.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Hunting-shooting/Rifles/auction-147121911.htm
one near you. auction might be over. oh well.
http://www.savagearms.com/st_200short.htm
didn't see the model 110, might not be made these days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savage_Model_110
http://www.savagearms.com/st_200short.htm
http://www.browning.com/ if get a Browning make sure it was manufactured in Belgium. (better made than the foreign made [by foreign I mean, made anywhere else besides Belgium])
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If you are going to hunt goats pigs and deer then may I suggest for the animals sake use a larger caliber then .223 so they don't suffer OR be an excellent shot, OR IMHO it is far better if you do both.
I was thinking nothing outside of clear shots <100m. I bowled a bunny last night at ~80m, slipped a pellet in 1cm behind its ear, 1 shot from a standing positon with a Gamo CFX air rifle (4x32 scope), in pouring rain, soaked to the bone, was quite pride of that shot even if it was just a bunny :)
Forgot to mention there is also livestock in the vicinity, hence not wanting something with too much of a boom.
Blooz there is a hornet on offer: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=147629343 (NZ$590), and is in my area. What do you think?
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oh maybe a Remington .243 too
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_750_woodsmaster.asp
never met a pig that was hard to kill. the .243 does a fine job of it.
make it charge you and you'll get a good clean head shot that becomes easier to hit as it comes nearer you.
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Forgot to mention there is also livestock in the vicinity, hence not wanting something with too much of a boom.
are they deaf to a thunder storm?
they'll get used to the boom very quick.
I was born, raised, and hunted around livestock all my life.
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Rabbits are small targets, so you need a really accurate rifle. Many semiauto rifles like the Ruger Mini 14 are not at all very accurate. A good bolt action rifle would be better.
Recommendations for the .243 Winchester are way over kill for rabbits. I have seen even the largest Jackrabbits literally explode when hit by the .243. It would be ideal for the bigger game that you mention, though.
If you have the ability to handload your own ammo, a rifle in either the 17 Remington Fireball or 221 Remington Fireball are about the ideal centerfire round for rabbits. Both use little powder, and small .17 or .22 caliber bullets. The .20 caliber .204 Ruger is another option, although even it is a bit too powerful. A .22-250 would also devastate a rabbit like a .243, unless you handloaded it down in performance.
Are you absolutely sure that rimfire ammo is forbidden for small game too? That sort of regulation makes no sense at all. Centerfire ammo has far greater range, and is thus much more dangerous than rimfire ammo. That hunting is even allowed in your National Parks is exceptional. No hunting of any kind is allowed in any of our National Parks or National Monuments. And PETA is now trying to get fishing banned from them also.
Here is a review of a link to my Rabbit rifle:
http://www.gunblast.com/Savage-93R17.htm
Ruger and CZ also make good rifles in the .17 HMR caliber.
And here is a review of a CZ rifle in .221 Fireball:
http://www.gunblast.com/CZ-527.htm
If you have to limit yourself to only one gun, then perhaps you could compromise with the .223 Remington. But get a Bolt action, and not an auto rifle.
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Get a .50 caliber Barret if you want pre-made chunks! :lol
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How heavy are the pigs, deer and goats respectively?
I don't think you want to use a .17HMR on a 400 lb boar hog but then maybe NZ hogs and deer are little bitty critters.
The suggestions you get will be more useful if the suggesters have a better idea of the physical characteristics of the animals you intend to prey upon.
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he has an Air Rifle for the wascally wicked Wabbits.
he needs a pig, goat, and deer slayer. nothing less than a .243 Winchester will do.
.30-.30 Winchester would be my recommendation for 150 yards or less. 300 yard shot is possible, but.... for accuracy it would be pushing it for most of the standard rounds made for .30-.30s.
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I think for what you want 2 rifles would be best. A .22 rimfire for bunnies. I do not like .223 or 22-250 at all for hunting other than varmints. There is far too much loss of meat. If you shoot a rabbit with a 22-250 you'll likely have chunks spread over a large area. I have one and used it for varmints like coyotes. It was not good for rabbits at all. The bullets in .22 are too fragile especially at the higher velocities of the 22-250. The 22-250 is also far from a quiet round, it's rather loud.
I would recommend a 24 or 25 caliber for the larger game as you aren't going real heavy. A .243 would be good and you have a variety of bullets for medium sized game.
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How heavy are the pigs, deer and goats respectively?
I don't think you want to use a .17HMR on a 400 lb boar hog but then maybe NZ hogs and deer are little bitty critters.
The suggestions you get will be more useful if the suggesters have a better idea of the physical characteristics of the animals you intend to prey upon.
I'd say this deer is pretty nice sized. http://www.chrisjolly.co.nz/?PK_PAGE_ID=736
if these are the pigs, yep ya gonna need something bigger. http://www.pork.co.nz/nzpork/kids_area/pig_breeds.asp
goats hmmm http://www.lifestyleblock.co.nz/articles/breeds/23_boer_goats.htm
NZ wild goat on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV0RRb_Vlhg
changed my recommendations.
you are going to need a bigger gun.
something bigger than 7mm (.280), maybe 8mm range in size. (.30 - 06) (.308)
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http://www.nz-fallow.co.nz/gallery/
another deer
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http://www.deergeneticsnz.co.nz/
more
I think I'm gonna have to sneak into NZ and go hunting with my .50 cal. muzzleloader.
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Are you absolutely sure that rimfire ammo is forbidden for small game too? That sort of regulation makes no sense at all. Centerfire ammo has far greater range, and is thus much more dangerous than rimfire ammo. That hunting is even allowed in your National Parks is exceptional. No hunting of any kind is allowed in any of our National Parks or National Monuments. And PETA is now trying to get fishing banned from them also.
You have to remember that rabbits, possum, deer, pig, and goat are all introduced species here that damage native flora and fauna. As such they're all considered pests. So hunting is not only allowed, but hunting permits are free as you are doing our conversation department a favour.
DieAz: re the noise, it's more out of consideration to the farmer to be honest :) .
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After a bit of googling for NZ deer, wild boar and wild goat hunts I think I have an idea of what you'll be after. Nothing is all that large; deer look to be about US Midwest whitetail size, boar ~ 300 lbs, goats not much different than ours.
Given your desire for something relatively light, I'd say .243 Winchester was a great suggestion out to about 250-300 yards on these animals. It shouldn't be hard to find a good .243 bolt that will be a tack driver. It's an accurate cartridge and a well made gun will have more capability than most shooters. Were I buying one today, I'd probably go with a Savage Weather Warrior
User adjustabale AccuTrigger, stainless barreled action, free floating and button rifled barrel, hinged floorplate, and swivel studs. Drilled and tapped for scope mounts. Black synthetic with positive checkering, dual pillar bedding.
(http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/images/ssi/26422.jpg)
For the bunnies, nothing is more fun than a good, accurate .22 LR. You can get a flatter trajectory with the .17 HMR but the ammo is WAY more expensive than .22LR and in truth the .17 is more than you need for bunny. I might suggest a Marlin 39A lever gun; I have never shot a more accurate-out-of-the-box .22 in a reasonable price range and I've shot 3 or 4 Marlins at random. They were all great. About $450 here in the US.
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So generally it looks like I'd be up for two guns then :(
I'm thinking then maybe this: http://www.guncity.co.nz/243-stevens-model-scoped-package-xidp160585.html and paying more for a better scope.
Although I still have urges for this: http://www.guncity.co.nz/stevens-39x40-scoped-you-choose-the-calibre-xidp160643.html
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So generally it looks like I'd be up for two guns then :(
Well, I think that it is more that you need two different calibers.
There are single shot rifles were you can easily change caliber by simply replacing the barrel of the gun. Harrington and Richardson's Ultra Varmint is available in .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire, 223 Remington, and 243 Winchester. Just change out the barrel, and you have a new caliber to shoot. I know a fellow that has one in 223 Remington, and it is quite accurate.
See this web page:
http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/hunter.aspx
Thompson Center also has their Contender and Encore rifles, which can again support multiple calibers with just a quick switch of the barrel. See this web page for info:
http://www.tcarms.com/
Harrington Richardson requires that any extra barrels be hand fitted at their factory to your specific gun, however. With the Thompson Center rifles, you can simply buy another barrel, and swap it out yourself. No factory work is required.
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Vulcan,
If you absolutely need a scope don't go cheap. For $629 USD to $798 NZD seems like a really good deal IF the optics are decent. From what I have seen and read about your area it does appear to be wet quite a bit so you will want some very good optics that will resist fogging and moisture buildup.
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140471 - BSA Deer Hunter 3-9X40 - Not the scope I would recommend for any firearm. Unless it was for a kid to learn with and even then I have a hard time putting someone with super cheap optics. BSA does make some decent scopes but this isn't one of them.
This one isn't a bad scope to have for starting out. http://www.guncity.co.nz/bushnell-banner-39x40-vari-power-dusk-dawn-xidp137878.html
This one is a favorite of mine and I have mounted it on several scoped rifles in the last 3 years for a few people. It is more expensive but its not nearly as pricey as my Swarovski AV3-10x42.
http://www.guncity.co.nz/leupold-vxia-39x40mm-gloss-xidp109156.html
Although I still have urges for this: http://www.guncity.co.nz/stevens-39x40-scoped-you-choose-the-calibre-xidp160643.html
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Last year I bought this : http://www.savagearms.com/110gxp3.htm (http://www.savagearms.com/110gxp3.htm)
I think I paid around $750 total (case, cleaning kit, 2 boxes of overpriced ammo).
The scope is a Simmons 3-9x40. Not top of the line I'm sure, but out to 200 yards I can put 5 shots in a group the size of a quarter.
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DieAz: re the noise, it's more out of consideration to the farmer to be honest :) .
check your laws to see if a silencer or muffler is allowed.
it will cut down on the boom dramatically.
although the crack of the sonic barrier being broken will still be heard all the way down range.
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My grandfather used to hunt wild pigs with his SMLE up the Kaimai ranges (near the Bay of Plenty)...thats probably a little too much mana for what you want Vulcan
Tronsky
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vulcan
if you are shooting as a guest on private land and the noise a .22 or centrefire rifle makes is a concern then consider using a suppressor. there is no stigma attached to using them and they are as common as heck these days. personaly i dont care much for them as they add weight and usually ruin the balance of a rifle. besides, i shoot on my own property and i don't mind the muzzle blast anyhow, and if others in the vicinity do then that's their problem.
if you buy a .22 and think that you may want to use a suppressor at some stage it's usually a good idea to buy one with the muzzle already threaded (many new .22's are) to take an inexspensive muzzle can suppressor which are resonably effective with sub sonic ammo. or you could really dig in to your piggy bank and get the fully suppressed savage .22 . with the reputation that savage have i would think it would be very accurate as well as being very quite.. probably make less noise than your air rifle when using subsonic ammo.
(http://www.sportwaysgunshed.co.nz/images/ProductImages/lefthandshorty.JPG)
Features: Barrel machined and Ported to be just over minimum legal length. Exterior finish Black Milspec.Stock - Wood Blue - monte carlo style. Suppressor Tube 304L Seamless Stainless. Internal components 100% Stainless. 10 Shot Magazine. Supplied with 4 x 32 Scope and Simmons Rings
as toad already mentioned the savage weather warrier is a good rifle and would be my pick for value for money and quality in a centrefire bolt action rifle. and there is a fully suppressed version of it as well.
(http://www.sportwaysgunshed.co.nz/images/ProductImages/SavageFullySuppressed.JPG)
"Barrel shortened approx 18''. FULL Overbarrel suppressor. 304L Seamless Stainless Steel. Integral muzzle break. 304 L Stainless Asymmetrically formed baffles. Available in 7mm08, 223 and 308"
http://www.sportwaysgunshed.co.nz/index.php (http://www.sportwaysgunshed.co.nz/index.php)
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I'd recommend the TC Arms Encore / Contender with multiple barrels. Since you are used to single shots with the Air Rifle moving to a centerfire that is single shot won't be much of a shooting methodology change and it has the added benefit of being able to swap calibers with the change of a barrel. Not sure what your countries regulations about own firearms are or if multiple barrels would be considered multiple guns (thus potentially needing multiple permits).
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The TC system, particularly the Encore, is a good option and has many calibers to choose from. Keep in mind that each barrel is not cheap and you need to check with your own laws to see if the receiver is the "gun" or each barrel is. I like the TC system but it will make the .22 rather heavy compared to a dedicated .22 rifle and it's also a single shot only option.
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Thanks for all the info guys, it's been quite helpful.
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Still haven't got anything (awaiting my firearms license still).... but heres some piccies of my happy hunting ground
(http://renaissance.xtreme.net.nz/ms/hunt1.jpg)
(http://renaissance.xtreme.net.nz/ms/hunt2.jpg)
(http://renaissance.xtreme.net.nz/ms/hunt3.jpg)
(http://renaissance.xtreme.net.nz/ms/hunt4.jpg)
(http://renaissance.xtreme.net.nz/ms/hunt5.jpg)
(http://renaissance.xtreme.net.nz/ms/hunt6.jpg)
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I started hunting deer here in Michigan back in 2000. The first year I used a converted .303 Enfield.
The following year I had another USP on layaway and transferred the money on this:
SigArms SHR-970. The action was SMOOTHER than a Weatherby costing twice as much.
Not mine but I have one in 30-06 and a Redfield scope (incredibly bright and not a cheap Redfield).
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/42/SIG-SHR-970-p1030038.jpg/800px-SIG-SHR-970-p1030038.jpg)
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Beautiful country, nice hills. where are the livestock? the farmers? the houses?
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- 1st picture is facing North into the national park/forest
- 2nd is NW towards the base of the national park (in that treeline to the left I usually pick off a some big hares)
- 3rd same kinda direction
- 4th looking more north into the park, down this slope is bunny central. Last night there were half a dozen behind the 2nd from bottom ridge on the left side. Behind that ridge is crawling with em.
- 5th is looking NE, too the right of that nearby ridge where the paddock turns to rough bush is the valley with the farms, roads, etc
- Last piccie is looking down the slope zoomed in too where bunny central is. That valley behind it has pigs and deer (every now and then I hear 308's or 222's hunting over there). Goats are all over the place. I've heard pigs in that near treeline.
The livestock were behind me at the time (cows), plus there were a few downhill but hidden in the brush.
If you've got google earth co-ords of where I took the piccies are at Lat 41° 4'56.24"S / Long 174°59'44.72"E
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(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/105530709_4e3b7ff8c2.jpg)
my fav.
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my next purchase
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/bushmaster.jpg)
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What you want is a 700 Nitro express
http://youtube.com/watch?v=H00gshZW9Po (http://youtube.com/watch?v=H00gshZW9Po)
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From what I can tell my best choices are something like .223 Ruger Mini 14, maybe something like a 22 Hornet (seem rare here), or maybe a 22-250?
Any advice/recommendations?
If you decide on .223 I would not get a Mini 14. I have one and it is fun but is wildly inaccurate at long range.
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22-250 is enough to kill pigs and deer if you are a good shot but it would destroy your rabbits..... :O