Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: LePaul on April 10, 2008, 10:33:21 PM
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Razer and I have been having a discussion about this(http://forums.checksix.net/showthread.php?t=4281 (http://forums.checksix.net/showthread.php?t=4281) if you want to see his setup, etc). His system seems to be running rather hot and is thinking about liquid cooling.
The reviews I've seen about it seem rather...well...uninspiring. I know for some folks, it works great and gives good results. And I know others who have seen little real change compared to a regular system.
So...we're kinda looking for what others are doing. Water. Air. Cooking oil (kidding!)
Thanks
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I'm thinking it all depends on the quality of the cooling system and the know-how of the user. A frigid cooling system won't function efficiently if its got tiny blocks or blocks made from a nonconductive material. Huge blocks won't work well if they've got tiny hoses supplying them. Then, even if you get the perfectly matched set, installing them improperly will dunce out the heat transfer.
Though, all of that's common sense. All I've got; sorry. :)
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I just built my new system;
Coolermaster mid-tower case (front 80/rear 120 fans + side duct and side vent)
PC Power & Cooling 750W PSU (rear fan)
EVGA 780i Motherboard (stock north bridge fan)
Intel E6750 2.66 Core2Duo (stock Intel CPU fan)
2 Gig Kingston DDR2800 High performance memory (with heatsinks)
EVGA NVidea 512 8800 GTS (seperate cooling slot)
250 Gig Seagate 7200 RPM SATA 3 HD
200 Gig Seagate Ultra ADA 100 HD
160 Gig Seagate Ultra ADA 100 HD
(front fan blows across all 3 HD's)
Those are the basics.
Exiting he game my temps according to the NView monitor are:
PSU <40C
North Bridge <50C
GPU <60C
At idle:
PSU <30C
North Bridge <40C
GPU <50C
I do manually turn my GPU fan speed up to 65-75% otherwise my GPU runs hot (60+ at idle).
One day last week I my machine was acting up. I seemed to get it working again and went to play for a while. When I exited I checked my temps and my CPU was running 90C! I pulled the side panel off and my CPU fan had quit running. Pulled the plug and re-plugged it and it's working again. I'm guessing it came loose with all the opening and closing and pulling out and sliding in and laying over, etc. I've been doing as I built this and swapped some HD's around. Thankfully, Inel built in a few fail safes into these PSUs to first throttle them back, then cut voltages to them if they start to overheat.
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water's the best , but can be sort of a pain .
1 always go with 3/8's hose min. size I.D. , 1/2 inch is ok but it can take up alot of room .(a mix of sizes seams to work best as for it allows the water enough time to cool )
2 dont mix more then 15% coolant or 20% water wetter... ALWAYS use distilled water !!! (you have been warned)
3 keep air flow thru case with at least a fan for the HD's and a fan cooling the Ram, and video card if not on water too.
optional water secrets , run a seperate 12 volt transformer for your water .( in my case it runs the radiator fans also)
run a Magnetic impeller type pump .
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Phase change (Vapochill for example) is definately the best method. Water with peltier comes next and then traditional water cooling.
Currently I use air only but I have my watercooling rig ready for installation (had a moment of insanity I guess).
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In AH I am seeing CPU temps in the low to mid 40s (centigrade). I am using a Zalman 9700 CPU cooler in an Antec 900 case. The Antec case has 4 fans.
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Well if it was me & I could afford it, I'd take one of those under the counter bar refridgerators.
Make a hole in the top for cables to enter and exit, run a power strip in & secure it to the back wall.
Then I thought I'd cut a block of 2" pink foam with holes for the cases. So you could open the door and have access to DVD Drives, power buttons, etc. Without letting all the cold air out.
Set the thermostat to 35 - 40 degrees F and you have a 2 case cooler to beat all coolers.
Plus it would be virtually dust free.
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While I can appreciate the effectiveness of water cooling, 20+ years as an electrical engineer tells me water and electronics don't mix. One leak and your fancy rig is toast. :cry
I'll stick with proper air cooling.
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Well if it was me & I could afford it, I'd take one of those under the counter bar refridgerators.
Make a hole in the top for cables to enter and exit, run a power strip in & secure it to the back wall.
Then I thought I'd cut a block of 2" pink foam with holes for the cases. So you could open the door and have access to DVD Drives, power buttons, etc. Without letting all the cold air out.
Set the thermostat to 35 - 40 degrees F and you have a 2 case cooler to beat all coolers.
Plus it would be virtually dust free.
IIRC a standard small refrigerator can't handle the heat load from a computer when you count in the power supply etc. A larger fridge would probably work in this way. Some DIY guys have built cpu coolers using a freezer compressor.
Btw: that cooking oil comment is not 100% joke, some guys immerse their computer (well, not the cd/hd duh..) in silicone or cooking oil for cooling.
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IIRC a standard small refrigerator can't handle the heat load from a computer when you count in the power supply etc. A larger fridge would probably work in this way. Some DIY guys have built cpu coolers using a freezer compressor.
Btw: that cooking oil comment is not 100% joke, some guys immerse their computer (well, not the cd/hd duh..) in silicone or cooking oil for cooling.
I have read about oil cooled (submerged) systems. It makes sense. The proper oil is non-conductive and a good coolant.
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Good posts.
I think the high end XPS Dell systems use some sort of refrigerant?
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Oops
Exiting he game my temps according to the NView monitor are:
PSU <40C
North Bridge <50C
GPU <60C
At idle:
PSU <30C
North Bridge <40C
GPU <50C
I meant CPU not PSU
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I built my system a year ago and just recently got serious about cooling it when I decided to overclock a bit. I'm very pleased with the air cooling I ended up with. Here are pictures:
http://snomhf.exofire.net/myComputer.html
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Air, one 120mm intake, one 120mm exhaust. E4500 @ 3.2Ghz running under 40C at full load with stock Intel HSF. 7600GT video card.
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Air, one 120mm intake, one 120mm exhaust. E4500 @ 3.2Ghz running under 40C at full load with stock Intel HSF. 7600GT video card.
An OC'd C2D at under 40C at full load with the stock HSF? Are you running a fairly barebone system (i.e. minimal expansion drives -> low number of cables in the case to allow greater airflow)? Aluminum case? Arctic Silver?
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I always use Artic Silver. I always dress cables out of the way. The case has a duct for routing external air to the CPU fan. It is an Antec Sonata II case.
It has one HD, one DVD-ROM, and one DVD Burner. The 7600GT exhausts its heat to the outside of the case as well.
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I always use Artic Silver. I always dress cables out of the way. The case has a duct for routing external air to the CPU fan. It is an Antec Sonata II case.
It has one HD, one DVD-ROM, and one DVD Burner. The 7600GT exhausts its heat to the outside of the case as well.
That's what I figured. You can't be a non-messy case setup.
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I use artic silver too, and I use air, Zalman I believe. My fan cpu runs about 37c on full load.
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Currently using air...too much of it. :D
2x120mm
1x80mm
1x"turbine" PCI exhaust fan equal to 2 or 3 120mm fans pulling off the video card
2x80mm fans in bottom/back of PSU
Giant copper fin radial heatsink from Thermaltake (CPU reported 27-32 deg C under load...not sure I believe it, but it is a Northwood after all)
All of which have blue LEDs, making the case so bright it was damaging my right eye and I had to tape up a barrier... :noid
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I think important questions are how are we getting temperature readings, are they accurate, and what is too high. Someone reported 27C. That's a warm room (80F) temp. I'm not saying it's wrong but have trouble believing that the core of a CPU can really be that cool when running with air cooling.
Getback reports 37C under full load. He and I have the same MOBO, CPU (e8400) and perhaps cooler (Zalman). I am running CoreTemp in the background and see 40-42C right now with only the forum up and see high 40s with a max of 50C in Aces High. I used Arctic Silver 5. I have an Atec 900 case with lots of fans and good air flow. I have an e8400CPU on an Abit IP35-Pro MOBU. I am using a Zalman 9700 CPU cooler. My video card is an EVGA 8800GTS. I can take the side off of the case and touch the CPU heatsink when the coretem reading is in the high 40sC (120F) and it and it doesn't even feel warm. I realize I'm not feeling the core but if the heat sink were not conducting heat away from the CPU the CPU would just keep getting hotter and hotter and reach a temp well above 50C. If air flow were a problem the heatsink would heat up. So I question the numbers.
Is my thinking off? Seeing the lower numbers makes me wonder if I have a problem. So how are you getting your core temps and how do you know they are accurate.
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I use the BIOS temperature reading. I don't know it's accurate.
EDIT: Do note that mine is 27 at full idle, as in BIOS running only. I'm sure it creeps up to around 40 in the intense games. That's the wonderful thing about Northwood cores (after the migration of the core material was fixed); they run extremely cool for their generation and make great overclockers...though I haven't.
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I could be mistaken about this but the night my CPU fan wasn't runninig and my processor got hot I went to the Intel site to do some research on safe operating temperatures. If I recall correctly, this is what I found:
Core2Duo processors can have temepratures read from a location directly in the center of the top of the processor (which also happens to be the critical heat transfer point to your heat sink). They also utilize one of the pins to transfer core temp data to the motherboard but not all motherboards support that option, thus the first method is also available.
Safe operating temps IIRC are in the 70+C range. There are failsafes built into the processor to help keep it below critical temperatures. As the processor passes normal operating temps it will reduce clock speeds to reduce heat. This process is supposedly almost un-noticable at the user level. If temperatures reach critical states (somewhere just north of 100C), the processor will cut voltages until it reaches safe temperatures again.
To verify this you can go to the Intel web-site. You are looking for a document on thermal management. Like I said, I might be wrong as I'm recounting this from memory but I think this is correct.
That said, my guess is that your and my motherboards are able to read the core temp data being supplied by the pin as they are both newer boards.
Using the stock Intel heatsink/fan/thermal grease my idle temp is ~27-28C and my operating temp under load is less than 40C according to the n-view monitor (I have an NVidea mobo) . Also, according to n-view, my CPU fan rarely runs over 1000 rpm (although it does on occasion). Normal fan speed at idle is ~990 RPM.
I'm not sure that answered your question but I'm reasonably comfortable that the temp readings are accurate.
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The ambient air temperature is a major factor in what temperature your CPU runs at.
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Our thermostat reads just below 70F, but I could probably auction it off as a WWII relic and not lie.
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Using Speedfan my temps, using air cooling are as follows...
Ambient - 70f - 21c
Idle
Case - 88f | 31c
CPU - 72f - 73f | 22c-23c
HD - 81f | 27c
Full Load
Case - 90f | 32c
CPU - 93f - 95f | 34c-35c
HD - 82f | 28c
This is with an E8400 and a case that has a duct for air directly to the CPU.
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having messed with all of it.. anything other than air cooling, is a waste of money and time.. its getting all trendy and crap to use different methods for the sole reason that they are different. which, if being able to say "wows look at my cool green glowing liquid cooling system!" is just peachy... but for functionality and return for your $$$... air.
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My BIOS tells me my CPU temp is 3C. CoreTemp tells me it is 42C with just the desktop and CoreTemp running. Speedfan tells me it is 10C with the desktop, CoreTemp, and Speedfan running. Does anyone get temps that are even close using different monitoring utilities?
NHawk
Idle
Case - 88f | 31c
CPU - 72f - 73f | 22c-23c
HD - 81f | 27c
Do you think your HD and CPU are really that much cooler than the case they are in. (And I'm not trying to be argumentative - just trying to understand what's going on.) :)
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Skuzzy i love it! Pure simple easy to do and enough to make em all happy!
CFM= Air in has to = Air out!
2 decent 120mm's keep it efficiant and quiet!(4 is even better if your OC'ing)
for the hot rod super mod guys that never enough!
I personally will ... Stay way from the Zalman HS...................Thermalt ake is a solid name and HS no matter how you go.(big breathable copper HS)
Now pumping water or some other fluid that could kill my machine after i spent the time to create a piece of art is just sacreligeous! the performace gains could never justify the means!
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Actually, keeping a positive pressure inside the case is a good idea. All cases have nooks and usually holes drilled in them; positive pressure blows the dust out of them.
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My BIOS tells me my CPU temp is 3C. CoreTemp tells me it is 42C with just the desktop and CoreTemp running. Speedfan tells me it is 10C with the desktop, CoreTemp, and Speedfan running. Does anyone get temps that are even close using different monitoring utilities?
NHawkDo you think your HD and CPU are really that much cooler than the case they are in. (And I'm not trying to be argumentative - just trying to understand what's going on.) :)
Yes I do.
The CPU receives filtered air directly from outside of the case via a duct and the heat it produces is vented inside of the case.
(http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/11-147-033-08.jpg)
The HD has a 120mm fan blowing filtered external air directly on it. It sits where the blue box is in the photo.
(http://c1.neweggimages.com/NeweggImage/productimage/11-147-033-09.jpg)
And when I check idle temperatures from Speedfan with Bios they match. There's no way to double check full load with bios since the moment you remove full load the cpu cools quickly.
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Are you actually measuring case temp or system temp? Mine monitors system temp, which to my understanding is the temp of the North Bridge of the mb. My mb has a North Bridge fan and heat-sink (as I think most current boards do).
If that's the case, then it makes sense that the system can run warmer than the processor. My system temp (North Bridge) is always ~10C warmer than the processor and my GPU is about 10C warmer than that.
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My northbridge runs near the same temperature as the case itself. Usually 2-3 degrees C warmer. So, it's in about the same range as what you stated for your system.
My current GPU does not have a temperature sensor on it. But, the new one that's on the way should and it will exhaust to the outside of the case.
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His temps are too high for water on an X2. My Koolance idles at 77F with room temp of 69.
He was showing 60C which is way too hot. His heatsink might not be seated correctly or he might not be using heat sink compound.
Razer and I have been having a discussion about this(http://forums.checksix.net/showthread.php?t=4281 (http://forums.checksix.net/showthread.php?t=4281) if you want to see his setup, etc). His system seems to be running rather hot and is thinking about liquid cooling.
The reviews I've seen about it seem rather...well...uninspiring. I know for some folks, it works great and gives good results. And I know others who have seen little real change compared to a regular system.
So...we're kinda looking for what others are doing. Water. Air. Cooking oil (kidding!)
Thanks
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Water. I've had it for three years now and all the leaks there has been have been my own fault and caused by piping connections in DIY watertanks. I have water blocks only on CPU and GPU, chipset and memories rely on the airflow from front fan. I have one 120mm fan in the front pushing air inside and one 120mm in the back pushing air out of casing and through the cooler. The forward fan operates at 6-7 volts, and the rear fan in the cooler is controlled by the BIOS and aims to keep the temperatures at 50C. Normal temp for CPU is between 40-55C depending on the load and GPU rarely peaks at 60C under heavy load.
The most problematic for me was to find silent 120mm fans. After a few bad purchases I tried two fans tested by some overclockers site and those were really silent, especially if run at low voltages. Fluid bearings and as many blades as possible and it will move air even at low speeds. The comp still keeps noise but its a very low monotonous hum and doesn't bother me at all.
On water tank i have located the incoming flow higher so that it starts to keep a bubbling noise when the water is low so I know when to add some.
AMD 4600XP DC, NV8800GT, 2xKingston HyperX 400MHz 1Gb, 3xHDD, Cooler: Black Ice GT Extreme 120.
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My system runs 35-40 degrees after exiting the game. Antec 900 case. Asus MB, 3.2Ghz AMD, 10k HD, 8800GTS Video card and a Thermaltake V1 cpu cooler. I think the Antec 900 is worth about 5 degrees.
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Zalmann Flower with Thermaltake fan, 1 inlet case fan in side and 1 exhaust in top, both 80mm and one huge heatsink and fan combo on NVIDIA GPU.
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I just looked and the mobo and CPU are running at 38C with only explorer, Kaspersky and SB X-fi sound panel running in the taskbar. There is a 120mm intake in the front and one in the back and one on the side pulling in fresh air. The PS has it's own venting out the bottom. The CPU fan is blowing away from the processor. I was thinking about reversing the fan on the side to blow out but wasn't sure what that would do to the air flow inside.
I experienced the BSOD a few days ago but discovered the cause was having my joystick and headphones plugged into adjacent USB ports. Problem solved.
It can't hurt to flip the fan, will post results. Aces doesn't seem to cause as much heat as does WOW. We turned down the graphics settings in both until I resolve this.
Thanks for all the replies.
7Razer
Edited to add these links on the case:
http://www.hardwarezone.com.au/reviews/view.php?cid=22&id=2336
http://www.viperlair.com/reviews/cases/coolermaster/cases/cm690/
The last link is similar to my setup with a few exceptions. The temps he got were what I expected to get, not the 54c I'm currently getting after game play.
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I just looked and the mobo and CPU are running at 38C with only explorer, Kaspersky and SB X-fi sound panel running in the taskbar. There is a 120mm intake in the front and one in the back and one on the side pulling in fresh air. The PS has it's own venting out the bottom. The CPU fan is blowing away from the processor. I was thinking about reversing the fan on the side to blow out but wasn't sure what that would do to the air flow inside.
I experienced the BSOD a few days ago but discovered the cause was having my joystick and headphones plugged into adjacent USB ports. Problem solved.
It can't hurt to flip the fan, will post results. Aces doesn't seem to cause as much heat as does WOW. We turned down the graphics settings in both until I resolve this.
Thanks for all the replies.
7Razer
Edited to add these links on the case:
http://www.hardwarezone.com.au/reviews/view.php?cid=22&id=2336
http://www.viperlair.com/reviews/cases/coolermaster/cases/cm690/
The last link is similar to my setup with a few exceptions. The temps he got were what I expected to get, not the 54c I'm currently getting after game play.
Your rear case fan is supposed to exhast air out the back of the case, as are any top fans. All others, front/side, etc. are intake fans.
Your CPU fan is supposed to blow from the top of the heatsink down into it (toward the CPU) and out the sides to take the heat out of, and away from the heatsink. The side vent or duct is supposed to allow fresh air IN for the CPU fan.
I'm not sure how you got the fan to blow the opposite direction but that's likely the problem.
Also, the PSU has an intake in either the front or bottom (possibly both) and an exhause out the rear.
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Because of the way the air flows around the enclosure that my PC was stuck in, I've rearranged and reversed a lot of the fans. It just takes common sense.