Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: captain1ma on April 13, 2008, 01:00:00 AM
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If everyone were willing to abide by this rule would you be willing to do so also???
#1-- no Ho'ing on the 1st pass unless being ganged by 2 or more aircraft. after 1st pass anything goes.
yes or no and why??
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If they're going at me, head on for an easy kill, when I'm in a B25, they're asking for it. That's the only time I open up on the first pass, seems to work like a charm :lol
*EDIT*
Thought this was the General Discussion forums, not an intentional hijack. Carry on :salute
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I get a feelin' you're gonna whip this dead horse until it wins the race. My thought's on this subject ... third thread in two days ... are publically reasoned in the last two.
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this is not Geneva and there will be no agreement , that's how peace breaks out , and we don't want that now do we :devil
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Jaeger just up 110's and faceshoot everything, apparently it's all good!
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Here here..I agree......(shuffles papers..stamps copies and passes to next member)
Sorry Arlo... I had to come back....my lolly-pop ran out :eek:
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They generally do. Seen it happen here before. ;)
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Why would you want to discourage a behavior which virtually guarantees the perpetrator will lose any advantage at the merge?
I don't ho for for selfish reasons. I welcome the ho for selfish reasons. If you ho on the first pass or complain about the ho it indicates a condition of tactical cluelessness.
This has been a public service announcement from your friendly neighborhood simian, offering clues to the clueless, free of charge.
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Well hot damn. Yay, Kong. Gets it ... and gets it well. :aok :cool:
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I can't see it happening anyway......just having fun. I did get a winkie eye smiley face from Arlo without even asking :D
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*ShruG* I'm easy .... ask my ex .... ask my next .... ask anyone who's dogfought me. :D
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Well hot damn. Yay, Kong. Gets it ... and gets it well. :aok :cool:
He gets it like this he gets it like that ,he gets it wit a wiffleball bat
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Go HO.... FTW! :aok
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h.o. attacks in bombers should be allowed cause they are sitting ducks in a turn fight. same for twin engine fighters. h.o. attacks by fighters should be regulated. no head ons on first pass. h.o. allowed if outnumbered (i.e. 1 against 2 ). this will cause all pilots to use their flying skills. i am tired of 15 second kills or being killed. make a fight of it. :)
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thanks valdals and odee
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You know what Jaegerschnitzel, this HO and rules you are obscessed with is nothing but scheize. Give it UP!!
If you don't want HO's then you stop doing it. You set the rule and start executing it. Other guys will see what a class act you are (cough),... and they'll stop as well.
have a good day
MUGADAI
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how about you, mugadai?? would you be willing to abide by rules set forth, if everyone else did the same?? yes or no
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Here's my rules I HO cus I am HO'ed
I pick cus i am picked
I vulch cus i am vulched
In a 1v1 fight i am out numbered cus they nmy has me on his side to help
so i revert back to rule 1
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ok so since everyone is missing the point, lets try this.... if everyone else stopped HO'ing right now, this very second, would you be willing to stop also?
i know what the reality is, im asking if everyone else stopped, would you stop?? yes or no?
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i only HO shoot bombers
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if everyone stopped right now that would be good.
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How about this for a rule of engagement;
"I will try to kill the enemy every chance I get, and I expect them to do the same."
This is a much easier rule to enforce, and to live by. Plus, you won't feel bad when you get shot down.
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ok so since everyone is missing the point, lets try this.... if everyone else stopped HO'ing right now, this very second, would you be willing to stop also?
i know what the reality is, im asking if everyone else stopped, would you stop?? yes or no?
I already don't have that habit. But I also don't have the habit of demanding or even expecting that of others. Nor do I support a code of ethics demanding or expecting it of others. No offense. It's kind of like an AvA version of a flag burning amendment. No, I don't burn my flags. No I don't support such an amendment. *ShruG*
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just can't give someone else a chance can you arlo??
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just can't give someone else a chance can you arlo??
Yeah, my answering everytime you ask over and over prohibits that. *quizical look* Get over. ;)
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I don't think it is a good idea to make a rule like that. Were trying to have a WAR not play paddy cakes. Hoing is a valid tactic in a dog fight if you want to take the gamble of it.
And vultion is a valid war tactic also. It is kind of stupid to let the enemy fighters up when your in the middle of trying to capture there field.
I mostly only ho people who are trying to ho me I would much rather get into a turning fight. I don't complain about hoing because it is just part of the war. It is a valid tactic. When I was researching my new sq. name I read that the RAF fighters were trained to go straight in head on attacks or hoing.
I think the AvA is a million percent better then when I first started playing again 3 or 4 months ago when I came in I was told not to attack the enemy field or try and de ack anything. Just go dog fight. It is much much better now. There are new people who can't dog fight yet. But now they can participate bye making bombing run or de acking the fields or driving a gv. Until they learn how to Dog Fight.
We all need to stop whining and just get down to fighting the war to the best of our ability.
Thank You
BlueTop :salute
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I mostly only ho people who are trying to ho me I would much rather get into a turning fight.
Sorry, but thats an utter lie. I have never had a merge against you where you have not fired. I have had several where I had no E and was unable to manuever where you came in head on, firing all the way, and rammed me out of the sky.
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Sorry, but thats an utter lie. I have never had a merge against you where you have not fired. I have had several where I had no E and was unable to manuever where you came in head on, firing all the way, and rammed me out of the sky.
he is actually right on that 1, except he left out the part that you cherry pick the majority of the time.
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he is actually right on that 1, except he left out the part that you cherry pick the majority of the time.
Who's right, me or him? I have been cherry picking a lot this month. Trying to get used to the 190. Its starting to bore me, though.
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Who's right, me or him? I have been cherry picking a lot this month. Trying to get used to the 190. Its starting to bore me, though.
did i quote him?
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did i quote him?
No, but you used the pronoun 'he', and then 'you', and the whole sentence really didn't make sense in the context that it was put.
he [Would refer to Bluetop's post] is actually right on that 1, except he [would also refer to bluetop's post] left out the part that you [would refer to a comment bluetop made in his post that refers to me, but he didnt say anything about me in his post] cherry pick the majority of the time.
Bit of confusion, there.
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In motherlands defence, I came across him in a 109, with me in a spit 1 - wasnt an interesting fight from his perspective (all he had to do is wait for me to run out of e and auger (which, oddly enough, I did :D) - at no time did he try and pick, he was working the fringes of my e state and wearing me down. He also apologised for a Ho, which, in my opinion, was a high angle deflection shot (my guns were nowhere near his face (couldnt get round fast enough)) - but thought it was classy to apologise anyway.
<S> Bubi
Wurzel
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In motherlands defence, I came across him in a 109, with me in a spit 1 - wasnt an interesting fight from his perspective (all he had to do is wait for me to run out of e and auger (which, oddly enough, I did :D) - at no time did he try and pick, he was working the fringes of my e state and wearing me down. He also apologised for a Ho, which, in my opinion, was a high angle deflection shot (my guns were nowhere near his face (couldnt get round fast enough)) - but thought it was classy to apologise anyway.
<S> Bubi
Wurzel
<S> Wurzel. I remember that one. It took me a pathetically long time to kill you considering the E states :lol
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Yep, think that was because I was flopping around the sky in a pathetic manner and you took pity on me fella..... :D :D :D
Plus, I'm trying to be less predictable...lol.....(generally by flopping around the sky and gaining sympathy)
<S>
Wurzel
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I don't think it is a good idea to make a rule like that. Were trying to have a WAR not play paddy cakes.
Snip it^
I just downloaded Paddy cakes..the cakes are over modeled and very uber :D
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If you are coming at me head on I figure you are going to try and shoot at me. I'm sorry if I shoot you down first. :P
BlueTop
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If you are coming at me head on I figure you are going to try and shoot at me. I'm sorry if I shoot you down first. :P
BlueTop
One of the reasons the good pilots whine about ho'ing is because someone stopped their killing spree... :cry :cry :cry :cry
You and I are quite clear on this one Blue Top.... :salute.
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I don't think the approach to “selling” this proposed rule will take off unless you change your approach. If I wanted to sell an idea or cause a change in behavior I would want to make it appeal to the masses. In short you want to make this idea contagious.
If you take the players in AvA and try to categorize them in a diffusion model, which is what some academics use to plot the movement of an idea through a community. First and foremost your idea must have merit or a clearly recognizable (tangible/valuable) benefit. Getting your idea to infect the whole community is going to be tricky.
I have listed the groups commonly used to set up a diffusion model.
In AvA, as in any community, you will probably have:
1) The Innovators - in this case that is you or the person/people who originate ideas or propose a change in behavior. Visionary group.
2) The Early Adopters - A slightly larger group, the opinion leaders of the AvA. These are usually those players who are respected by the majority of the AvA community. Visionary group.
3) The Early Majority - the deliberate mass.
4) The Late majority (the skeptical mass who won’t try anything until the Early adopters start doing it)
5) The Laggards (who see no urgent reason to change).
Groups 1 and 2 are the visionaries. An example of this type of person is someone who always buys the latest new electronic gadget before it becomes a trend, been proven, or the price comes down. They are often risk takers.
Group 3 is the group worried with how this behavioral change will affect their game. They will make incremental progress towards adopting this behavior.
Group 4 are the people who will consider this a risk and will only attempt it with a safety net in place. They are going to manage this behavior change very closely.
Group 5 only falls into line once the other groups have adopted the behavior.
The “no HO rule” will not transition easily from group 1 to group 2 and the attitude of the first 2 groups is fundamentally incompatible to the other 3. So while your idea makes perfect sense to group 2, there is a chasm between group 2 and 3,4,5. The people you need to make this happen are those players who can take the idea and translate it into a behavior that the other groups can understand and adopt. Until you identify and bring onboard those people in the AvA community who can connect with groups 3,4, and 5 your idea will fail to take off. I'd say your proposal is still bouncing off group 2.
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you know , I like biscuits :huh :confused:
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You might need to classify a sub group of sub-players. Some even exist in this very thread. Vomiting the same old "Im gonna HeadOn no matter what.., cause it's war...I dont care if you can outfly me,im this dude-> :rock" bla bla jibberish
Getting hit full-frontal guns-blaring head-on instead of maneuvering to get into a nice solid dogfight just is'nt a fun part of this GAME.
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They would fall into either group 4 or 5; most likely 5. Do you have any ideas on why the sub-class you identify seems predisposed to the head on attack?
I looked around in various books and web pages to try and find some serious discussions on the HO tactic duirng the war and found very little about it. I read one article about Russian pilots who had a penchant for HO'ing JU-88A-4's and how the Germans responded to this tactic by painting windows on a few JU-88C's with nose cannons installed to look like an A-4 giving the Russian pilots a big suprise. I have often wondered if there are common traits associated with those for the HO vs those against it. For example, do pilots who fly more maneuverable planes with less powerful guns have a greater hatred for the HO than say pilots with 20/30mm cannons? What is the general consensus of 110 pilots or Hurricane pilots as compared to P-51 pilots. I'm not trying to suggest that the size of the gun is the biggest factor; but it may contribute to it. I think it would be interesting to hear the opinions on HO'ing from pilots who fly various planes.
I would also be curious to know if people are against the HO in general or if they sub-categorize. E.g it's not ok to HO a fighter but it's perfectly acceptable to HO a bomber or a C-47.
I think stating that "HO'ing is a result of a lack of ACM skill" is too simple of a response. Other factors weigh in on whether or not a player decide to HO. Some, perhaps the ones you refer to, are doing it simply out of spite. Perhaps a person will resort to the HO out of frustration at being unexpectedly bounce, or taking on more than he can handle, etc.
Regardless, unless you can clearly provide a benefit by not HO'ing to those who do then the behavior will not change. (and now for a quick comercial sponsored by Pilsbury biscuits. Hot from the oven, Pilsbury satisfies)
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You might need to classify a sub group of sub-players. Some even exist in this very thread. Vomiting the same old "Im gonna HeadOn no matter what.., cause it's war...I dont care if you can outfly me,im this dude-> :rock" bla bla jibberish
Getting hit full-frontal guns-blaring head-on instead of maneuvering to get into a nice solid dogfight just is'nt a fun part of this GAME.
If you see him coming at your face .... and you can't seem to avoid it .... that's not outflying the other guy. No offense. :salute
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i think alot of the newer players Ho because they dont know any better. i didnt until i joined a squad. i think some players HO out of frustration of getting killed all the time and they figure its their best shot. i think if alot of the un squadded players joined squads that frowned on HO'ing and showed them how to win by using ACM the arena would get to be a better place.
i also feel that there are some players that adamantly HO, that set bad examples to some of these newer players. then there are those players that refuse to change. well, theres not much you can do about them, except maybe duck and cover, cause they're gonna HO you every time.
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Jager,
When you say they adamantly HO, are you saying they purposely position themselves for the HO or that if the opportunity presents itself will take that HO shot?
How about an example scenario:
A fully loaded 190A8 is flying to a target for a JABO mission. In front of him a pony (insert plane of choice) is climbing to intercept. The pony is coming HO. The 190 pilot puts the nose down a little and continues towards the target. The pony continues to merge HO and soon will be in range of the 190's guns. If the 190 pilot doesn't shoot the pony might. If neither shoots the pony will be in a positon to flip around at the merge and get on the 190's six.
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If you see him coming at your face .... and you can't seem to avoid it .... that's not outflying the other guy. No offense. :salute
That is true for the odd 1k out HO. You know he's coming for you, and ya if you don't avoid that one your a goober. But when it's 3 or so vs 1 and your twisting and turning full flaps just trying to hold your bird in the air...it's quite difficult to evade those HOs, and those are the HOs that really just put you over the edge. When your fighting tooth and nail and some goob comes and HO's you out of impatience...
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What it all comes down to is----
Allied was finally winning one. Axis went into a panic attack and basically said. This is too much like the MA with everyone ho'ing and running to the ack. We're leaving and going to the MA.
What they should have said was. Good game Allies Looking forward to the next frame.
They thought that running from their homes would stop the looting but they were wrong.
Shame Truekill didn't stick around to see what it was like to win as allied. Guess the switch wasn't true afterall. :devil
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I'm just trying to drill down into this some more, I think it's worthwhile. So the 190 pilot, heavy with a bomb, some might say less maneuverable and quickly loosing any advantage should maneuver to avoid the pony or he's a goober? I'm not disagreeing with you on this but would like to see what you would do in that position (and yes every situation is slightly different).
On the other example you gave, I can see how that would push someone over the edge. You feel disadvantaged already, are getting low on E, and then get HO'd and feel cheated.
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You're right araiguma. The 190 pilot should take the shot. In war if a pilot returned and said that he didn't take a shot because it was a HO, I think he should be shot on the spot. To not take the shot just allows the con to live another day and kill your buddy.
You strap yourself into a plane with half a dozen machine guns and point them towards me or anyone else, don't be surprised if we shoot first.
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Jager,
When you say they adamantly HO, are you saying they purposely position themselves for the HO or that if the opportunity presents itself will take that HO shot?
How about an example scenario:
A fully loaded 190A8 is flying to a target for a JABO mission. In front of him a pony (insert plane of choice) is climbing to intercept. The pony is coming HO. The 190 pilot puts the nose down a little and continues towards the target. The pony continues to merge HO and soon will be in range of the 190's guns. If the 190 pilot doesn't shoot the pony might. If neither shoots the pony will be in a positon to flip around at the merge and get on the 190's six.
both on the first part. i know guys that go for the HO every time. in your example, that is a perfect picture of something i would do. duck the HO and unless someone was covering my behind, get Sixed. normally i push the nose down and hope that one of my squaddies will cover me. Usually storch or N72. otherwise, i end up a pile of twisted steel on the ground. but i wont HO, not on the first pass. PERIOD.
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However, in a world that doesn't involve a 190, heavy with child and in a situation it or it's pilot is ill-advised to habitually practice, try rudders more, mate. Slip out and up and cut back across or out and down and cut back up and in. Use a barrel roll merge. Wingover on his high six. Something more than diving and hoping a wingie or two covers you from the ho you're "ducking" (in other words -- at least apply a second axis of seperation, even IF you're the designated sacrificial Jabo bird). Let them (your designated guardian angels) cover you from the second or third bog you're not engaged with because that's what they're really there for, right?(Speaking of ... snapshots in a furball aren't HOs ... I'm sure you know.) Your decision not to joust is your decision to make - but I'd still work a better plan. N72's bound to concur. Maybe even Storch by now .... or Kong, for sure. :salute
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Three answers, each with a different approach to dealing with this one situation. I still felt like the responsibility for avoiding the HO was aimed more at the 190 with child and less with the pony taking the direct HO route to intercept. Others have said that "it takes 2 to HO" or something along those lines. What do you say to the pilot climbing up to intercept that 190 which might be getting ready to dive down on your field? Other than "they jam is really good on the biscuits today :P."
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I seldomly take the HO shot. I dive and immel usually finding the HO'r wondering where I went as I pack his six full of 20mm.
there will be a few players who will now refute what I typed, these players should contact KONG for their free clues, KONG is generous like that and you might find the clue beneficial.
the 190 will turn and it is fun doing so. those of you interested in learning to turn the 190 should fight the AI drone offline with the 190. the AI drone is a better player than 90% of the players in the game and better than 90% of the current trainers.
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I seldomly take the HO shot. I dive and immel usually finding the HO'r wondering where I went as I pack his six full of 20mm.
there will be a few players who will now refute what I typed, these players should contact KONG for their free clues, KONG is generous like that and you might find the clue beneficial.
everytime i have fought you in the MA or the AvA you come with the HO.
Kong can get his 1020 clue N in M :D
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i only HO shoot bombers
Just a question out of curiosity Jag, why all this self righteousness about who you HO or not? All this talk about a "Code of conduct" between the elite fighter jocks, but when it comes to the lowly bomber he is to be dispatched by the most convenient method, or because a head on shot to a bomber its generally a pretty safe shot for the fighter, because we all know that the bombers are only here for the amusement of the fighter pilots. We are only here to break the monotony in between the noble duels of you Gentlemen in your superb killing machines.
Personaly I have little interest in the discussion of this "code of conduct" and I find it amusing that it is suggested that rules should be implemented to govern war, I seldom fly a fighter except to jabo in support of a squad mission, but if you pass thur my gun sites I will shoot you, from what ever direction you are coming and make no apologies about it.
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers
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Just a question out of curiosity Jag, why all this self righteousness about who you HO or not? All this talk about a "Code of conduct" between the elite fighter jocks, but when it comes to the lowly bomber he is to be dispatched by the most convenient method, or because a head on shot to a bomber its generally a pretty safe shot for the fighter, because we all know that the bombers are only here for the amusement of the fighter pilots. We are only here to break the monotony in between the noble duels of you Gentlemen in your superb killing machines.
Personaly I have little interest in the discussion of this "code of conduct" and I find it amusing that it is suggested that rules should be implemented to govern war, I seldom fly a fighter except to jabo in support of a squad mission, but if you pass thur my gun sites I will shoot you, from what ever direction you are coming and make no apologies about it.
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers
because thats how you attack them.
is the B-17 gonna reverse and get on my 6 for a clean shot?
is the B-24 gonna go into ACM mode with 3 drones?
the classic way to attack a bomber is from the rear position.but we all know about the laserbeam guns on these bombers in AH.
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OK, I guess then that you are saying it is the safest shot for the fighter to HO the bomber but it is too much of a crap-shoot to HO against a fighter who can shoot you back. "No skill involved is the term I hear most often" Very courageous! I am compelled to ask how much skill is involved in Ho'ing the bomber? I too have noted however that the fighter pilots courage ( not you personally Jag, just the general mindset) diminishes greatly when he has to Man-up against the bombers rear guns. However as for the lazerbeam guns on the bombers, I sumit, that is a matter of perspective depending on which side of the gun you are sitting on, I have not yet discovered the lazer like qualities.
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers
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hunting bombers is about the most exciting thing you can do in this game.
i HO shoot them
i attack from the 6 position
i attack them from the side position
it is just fun to me
HOing another fighter is just lame, it is not about the kill that registered, it is about the fight that was recorded.
one day you may understand that, hopefully for your sake it is soon.
:rock :rock :rock :rock :rock :rock :rock :rock :rock
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Actually we are in agreement, hunting bombers is one of the most exciting aspects of the game and I attack them the same way as you do, I was just intrested to hear what you would say.As to fighter to fighter HO's history books as well as tv documentaries are filled with articles about fighters that approach each other from head on positions, it wasn't an occasional chance encounter it happened frequently and I just refuse to get caught up in the fighter HO mindset that is so prevalent in here. As to what you hope for "my sake" don't worry about me, I understand the game well enough,it is just my interest that differs, I am not concerned about the "fight", my purpose here is about the mission.
Let me also say this Jag, nothing I have said here is a personal attack against you, your statement about "only HO'ing bombers" just gave me the opportunity to offer a different point of view.
<S>
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers
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the classic way to attack a bomber is from the rear position.
Hardly.
Reading through Heinz Knoke's (Bf.109 pilot and staffelkapitaen of 5./JG11, and Reich Defense Staffel) autobiography (which is more of a collection of journal entries), I was quite surpised at how closely the tactics that I and most bomber hunters use in-game resemble those that the real Reich Defense pilots used. You see, after the U.S. entered the war with their B17's and B24's, the Luftwaffe found that the overmodeled laser guns on the American buffs DID, infact, make a dead six attack all but suicide. Ever wonder why the B17G had 4 nose guns and 2 tail guns? That would be because the RVG units almost ALWAYS went for the head on attack first with bombers. In fact, 5./JG11's attacks all but directly mirror what we use in game (5./JG11 was also by far the most successful staffel of II/JG11, II/JG11 usually having more kills and less losses than most other units operating in the area). When they first ecountered the bomber stream, they would use WGr. 21cm rockets, or bombs, to break up the formation, continuing to pull out front for the HO. That attack I found almost eerily similar to what we use in game, as not only was the HO used almost exclusively against bombers, but they aimed for the exact same place, the cockpit, as I, at least, aim for ingame. After the head-on attack took down some bombers and spread the formation out even more, the staffel would either make another high-speed pass through the formation or start picking off stragglers. After the formation was split up enough, Knoke and his pilots WOULD hang a couple hundred yards of the 6-oclock of the buffs and load 'em with lead, but by this time the rear gunner was usually already dead.
Though, I agree whole-heartedly with Tankker on fighter HO's (*gasp!*). Here's the way I see it.
The basic concept of ACM is to get a guns solution on your opponent while denying your opponent a guns solution on you. While the HO does give you the second perameter, it does not give you the first. Thus, in my opinion, it is bad ACM. And, thus, in my opinion, I rarely shoot at someone with a guns solution on me, as we, in that situation, have both made a mistake and neither should 'win'.
<S>
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Oink..........
I wondered what that did!
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Let me also say this Jag, nothing I have said here is a personal attack against you, your statement about "only HO'ing bombers" just gave me the opportunity to offer a different point of view.
<S>
Maj OldBull
XO Avengers
i knew it was no attack.and even if it was i don't care so it doesn't bother me.
:aok