Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on January 21, 2001, 11:30:00 AM
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001363.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001363.html)
scroll down through the uninformative stuff till you get to badboy's info on the real P-38 vs AH P-38.
very interesting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 01-21-2001).]
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Yawn
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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To bad no reactions from HTC yet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322:
To bad no reactions from HTC yet (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Does the HT staff read all of these posts?
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Yes Jim, I can assure you that most if not all the people at HTC read the boards religiously.
They will respond if they feel it is necessary or waranted.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Here is some more sites to read concerning the P-38
http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/index.html (http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/index.html)
http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38.html (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38.html)
http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-2.html (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-2.html)
http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-3.html (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-3.html)
Hope this helps
von Gunn
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Interesting read Gunfighter.
Would you imagine how the P-38 would have performed with Merlin XX engines?
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Fat DRUNK Bastards.
Nothing feels sweeter than facing a powerful enemy 1 on 1, the battle is tough, but you emerge victorious. As he types <S>!!! on channel one, you open fire on his chute.
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Perk it.
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Originally posted by Animal:
Interesting read Gunfighter.
Would you imagine how the P-38 would have performed with Merlin XX engines?
More or less like the Fw190 adapted with DB603 engine (Ta152-C)...in late 1943
Or a Fw190D9...in 1942 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Im not quite sure of all the discrepancies involved in the AH version of the 38. I don't fly it much personlly, seeing as I am a luftwaffe type. But I did take it up once and proceeded to get an engine shot out. Now being a pilot myself, I expected the need to correct with rudder to counter the thrust produced by the good engine and the increased drag of the dead one. But to my amazement, I didn't, she flew straight and level with one engine spinning wide open and the other just along for the ride. I did notice that under 120 IAS did I need to start correcting for the lack of the engine, but even then it didn't take much.
GFIII
aka
Otto von Gunn
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Quite a discussion to say the least. One observation that seemed to be overlooked in the other thread is that if it weren't for the P38 the Pacific war would have lasted much longer. It is a fact that P38's were used to shoot down more Japanese AC than any other type, so calling it a "piece of crap" is pure hyperbole". All AC go through developmental stages and the P38's was initially very long because a certain B. Kelsey crashed the only XP-38 in existence so that the program had to start over again. Also consider the fact that the P38 was originally intended to be an interceptor to defend the US against enemy bomber raids. It was not really intended to be a fighter vs fighter ship but it exceeded its design specs in speed and got attention quickly. Since the 38 was designed and tested mostly in sunny California not all the cold weather bugs surfaced until it got used in europe. I have a personal acquaintence who served as a mechanic in the PTO and always said that "we were dammed lucky to get the Lockheed and get rid of those Bell aircows" (P39's) as he called them. Also remember what P38 pilots did to axis air transport in the mediteranean. P38's escorted the Japanese officials to the surrender ceremony at IoShima and may have been the first allied AC to set down on the Japanese mainland as well. Also remember that the military bureaucracy works (yes sometimes it even works) in strange ways and that the military training program for the P38 was not what either Milo Burcham or Tony LeVier at Lockheed recommended. This is one reason why Charles Lindburg went to the Pacific to fly P38's and F4U's-he new the military manuals were screwed up. As for the P38 in AH it could probably could use some tweeking when flying on one engine and the fowler flaps should create more lift probably, but its still fun to fly.
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in a nation of people with two eyes, a man with one eye is half blind
In an ation of people with no eyes, that same man would be god.
You simply cant take the figures of a plane that mostly fighted Zekes ,Nates, and Oscars with the occasional Tojo,tony and in the latest days, Shiden-Kais and Ki-84s, with those who fought a TO with Fw190As ,190D9s, 109Gs, etc.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-21-2001).]
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Nice ram (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
(http://us.st5.yimg.com/store4.yimg.com/I/demotivators_1619_4916770)
"We are the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldritch
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Just a note, the cold weather of Europe effecting the P-38 is a just a myth. Altitude, yes, weather, no.
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(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
33rd FW www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
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AAhhh....yes. The famous, "The P-38 only excelled against Zekes and Ki 43's. It totally sucked against the LW".
Everyone who says this seems to forget that 3 FG's flew them in the MTO against units (and sub-units of) such as JG 27, JG 51, JG 53 and JG 77. And they flew against them beginning in 43.
Groups like the 1st FG, 14th FG and the 82nd FG more than held their own. The 1st FG (operational Nov 42) scored 440 kills and had 19 aces. The 14th FG (oper. Nov 42) had 17 aces. The 82nd FG (oper. Jan 43) scored 594 kills and had 24 aces in its ranks. In fact the 82nd FG held the ETO/MTO record for kills until early 45. These 3 FG's continued to fly the -38 until the end of the war.
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Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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I thought linburgh was over there to do some type of study on twin engined A/C and after he flew a few and came back with so much gas he then got switched to teaching fuel economy tactics.
and yes it seems to be the same note. the P-38 did poorly in the ETO because it fought the germans that had much better planes and pilots than the japanese. and the reason it did so well in the PTO was because the japanese planes only did 300mph and all of them were Ki 43 or zeros.
I could almost accept this except for the fact that in the MTO the P-38 fought those same german planes and pilots and not all the japanese planes were zeros. If you take the time to go to the airforce records that is online. it will list all the kills by people from ww2 it will state what enemy A/C was shot down. you will see quite a few of the late model japanese planes. at low altitude the 38 did not have the large speed advantage over these A/C as it did the zero or at high altitude.
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Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
I could almost accept this except for the fact that in the MTO the P-38 fought those same german planes and pilots and not all the japanese planes were zeros. If you take the time to go to the airforce records that is online. it will list all the kills by people from ww2 it will state what enemy A/C was shot down. you will see quite a few of the late model japanese planes. at low altitude the 38 did not have the large speed advantage over these A/C as it did the zero or at high altitude.
See, you **REALLY** want me to dig for numbers of the German planes available in the MTO for the time the P38 started to be an effective weapon there?.
Hint: never were more than 250 planes.
Go figure.
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After Oct 43, the 9th AF was relocated to England. This left just the 12th and later the 15th AF's in Italy and the Med.
About 7 FG's. Or a little over 200 planes.
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Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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Originally posted by Dune:
After Oct 43, the 9th AF was relocated to England. This left just the 12th and later the 15th AF's in Italy and the Med.
About 7 FG's. Or a little over 200 planes.
over 200 P38s you mean...because there were too P51As, A-36s, Spitfires, Beaufighters, etc...not to count tbe heavy and tactical bombers. And at that time the Jagdwaffe on Italy was less than 150 planes.Even Jg77 was fitted for a while with C205s because there were no german planes available.
Sorry, no deal.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-21-2001).]
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Nope. There were never more than 90 -38's. The other three FG's were the 31st, 52nd, 325th and 332nd. The 31st and 52nd flew Spitfire V's until they recieved P-51B's in Apr 44. The 325th and 332nd went from P-47's to -51B's in mid-summer 44. Thats another 120. (There were 2 FBG's, the 27th and 86th, but these were almost totally ground-attack. These two groups had traded in their A-36A's for P-47's in May 43) So, in pure FG's a little over 200 fighters.
Sorry, no deal.
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Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
...If you take the time to go to the airforce records that is online. it will list all the kills by people from ww2 it will state what enemy A/C was shot down....
I would love to look at those records. I have two friends that were Marine Corps pilots in WWII. Both flew the F4U. I've always wanted to look at there records. Could you direct me to the sites. Even just point me in the right direction.
Thanks for any help you can give.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-21-2001).]
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Preach on brother Cit! Some very interesting reading indeed.
I still say only 'real men' fly the P38, 'specially knowing it isn't performing they way it should be (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
ohoh, I feel a flaming coming with that last statement.......
ts
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I thought an FG had about 50 fighters?
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Nope. 3 Squadrons of anywhere from 12 to 16 at full strength. Add in a few HQ staff and you could probably say the average was around 40 or so.
But the HQ rarely flew and FG's rarely put all their planes in the air.
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Col Dune
C.O. 352nd Fighter Group (http://www.352ndfightergroup.com)
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"
"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona
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nm
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 01-22-2001).]
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I notice some folks try to 'win' the bulletin board argument with one liners etc without really doing any research-that's their style I guess but there is great deal of history behind the P38 as well as other AC. If you ignor history then you screw up the future.
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So if you whine about the 38 no flames and if youwhine about the Luftwaffe you're called a Luftwaffe whiner...I mean c'mon what kind of biased crap is this. :-p
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/glasses.htm)
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RAM said:
> Even Jg77 was fitted for a while with C205s because there were no german planes available.
So they had a better plane for a while :-)
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Jim dandy, I came accross some type of airforce web site that listed anybody who shot down an a/c. it listed the date and enemy a/c shot down. I delete my bookmarks regularly. I do not remember if I got the ulr here or in a search. I will try and find it again.
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Originally posted by RAM:
See, you **REALLY** want me to dig for numbers of the German planes available in the MTO for the time the P38 started to be an effective weapon there?.
Hint: never were more than 250 planes.
Go figure.
RAM, gimme a bit but I'll pull some figures for you.
Most of the engagments of the P-38 squadrons vs the LW were at an enormous disadvantage (whether you want to include Africa or not makes little difference, numbers were approx. the same)
Usual was P-38 one squadron of 16 planes (sometimes less for one reason or another) vs 30 or so LW planes, the majority G6's and mixed-matched FW models, along with whatever the Italians could contribute for a given operation. I've heard many times this was because P-38 squadrons appeared to the LW ground controllers as a bomber formation on radar, so while there may not of been that many LW fighters in the theatre they nearly always showed up in force when engaging the 38s expecting to intercept bombers. Couple this with the face that mission were generally limited to lower altitudes in the Medd. so the flight looked even more like a bomber formation.
It's not quite as simple as it looks, the Allies did things alot differently in the Medd. (as did the LW). While the LW did practice mass scramble for bomber intercept most of the US squadrons went out in small numbers for individual objects, nothing like what was practiced over the rest of Europe.
If you search around you'll see the LW in the Medd. may of not had large numbers but they were at least coordinated to make the most of what they had, and that some of the allied pilots did suprisingly well considering what they were flying and what they were up against, as well as the LW for that matter.
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(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
33rd FW www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 01-22-2001).]
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Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
Jim dandy, I came accross some type of airforce web site that listed anybody who shot down an a/c. it listed the date and enemy a/c shot down. I delete my bookmarks regularly. I do not remember if I got the ulr here or in a search. I will try and find it again.
Thx for your help. E-mail me if you find it. Thx again. <S>
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Btw after checking, my numbers concur with Dune's ... 3 FG's, and rarely more then 1 squadron on a combat sortie at a time, consisting of about 16 planes avg.
Still working on the LW numbers, although it looks to be a figure @ 200 fighters and at least a wing of transports, spread out but concentrated rather heavily once airborne due to decent coordination. Looking into Italian aircraft as well.
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(http://bigdweeb.homestead.com/files/sig.jpg)
33rd FW www.33rd.org (http://www.33rd.org)
[This message has been edited by Jigster (edited 01-22-2001).]