Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on April 14, 2008, 10:24:54 PM
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What are the known ace vs. ace fights in WWII and what were the outcomes?
Fights I am aware of:
Pilots: Adolf 'Sailor' Malan vs. Werner Molders.
Aircraft: Spitfire Mk Ia vs Bf109E-4.
Outcome: Malan wounded Molders who was forced to withdraw from the fight. Malan won, technically.
Pilots: Robert Stanford Tuck vs. Adolf Galland.
Aircraft: Spitfire Mk Vb vs Bf109F-4?
Outcome: Galland's Bf109s had the altitude and Tuck ordered his Spitfires into a luftberry circle to cover eachother's 6s. Galland identified the leader and went for him, but Tuck saw him coming and avoided the attack. Galland shot down Tuck's wingman and Tuck rolled back in and shot Galland's wingman down. Tie, and they removed eachother from the company of Hartman and Sakai, who never lost a wingman.
Pilots: Saburo Sakai vs Pug Sutherland.
Aircraft: A6M2 Zero vs. F4F-4 Wildcat.
Outcome: After a hard fight, Sakai shot Sutherland down. Sakai won.
Pilots: George Beurling vs. Furio Niclot Doglio
Aircraft: Spitfire Mk V? vs Unknown?
Outcome: Beurling shot down and killed Doglio and shot down Doglio's wingman, who was captured. The two had been Italy's top scoring team. Beurling won.
I know there must be others as well. I'd like the read about them.
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Nice thread... I will look into and hope to read more!
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Does a V-1 Ace count? :)
Terry Spencer of 41 Squadron who had 7 V-1 kills in the Spit XII. On September 3, 1944, 9 days before they gave up their XIIs for XIVs, Terry Spencer and his wingman W/O Pat Coleman shot down 173 kill ace Emil "Bully" Lang and 60 kill ace Alfred Goss. Goss survived wounded and Lang was killed. They were in 190s. These were the last two kills scored by Spit XIIs.
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Helmut Wick (56) vs. John Dundas (13) vs. Rudolf Pflanz (52)-Nov. 28 1940
Helmut Wick = Bf 109 E-4
John Dundas = Spitfire I
Rudolf Pflanz = Bf 109 E-4
Wick was diving out of a fight and heading for home when he was bounced by Dundas who reported the victory over the air, just before getting clobbered by Pflanz who had observed Wick bailing out into the freezing English Channel.
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How about a matchup from the eastern front... There must've been some good ones...
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Hans-Joachim Marseille in Bf 109F
vs
SAAF aces
Robin Pare, Douglas Golding and Andre Botha, all in P-40.
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Marseille was special.Had like 14 shootdowns in one day.
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How about a matchup from the eastern front... There must've been some good ones...
Hartmann killed em all...JK...There were several just dont no the names.Even a few russian women aces :O
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Hartmann killed em all...JK...There were several just dont no the names.Even a few russian women aces :O
Top female ace was Lily Litvak (sp?) with 14? kills. Don't know if she ever faced a German ace in combat though. She was singled out and killed by a group of Bf109s while flying a Yak-7. Put up a good fight though.
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Hans-Joachim Marseille in Bf 109F
vs
SAAF aces
Robin Pare, Douglas Golding and Andre Botha, all in P-40.
was that the sortie where he attacked a whole squadron? 1v15 or something crazy :huh
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Ilmari Juutilainen (Double Knight of Mannerheim Cross Order, leading Finnish ace with 94 victories)
vs
Aleksandr Matveyev (Hero of Soviet Union, 15 victories)
Matveyev's flight of 4 La5's were waiting over Juutilainen's base as he returned from a recce mission in his 109G-2. Juutilainen's wingman had to land due to engine trouble and Juutilainen climbed alone to engage Matveyev's flight.... Read below:
Quote from: http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/juuti/juuti2.htm
March 1944, date 7th , 8th or 9th , exactly not mentioned. Flt.Mstr. Juutilainen was on a recce mission in the middle of the day with his wingman Sr.Sgt. Peltola. Their task was to count the number of the enemy aircraft in the airbases of Gorskaya, Levachovo and Kasimovo plus monitor the road and railway traffic North of Leningrad. At Levachovo the enemy had put the fighters in covered bunkers. Defying the enemy AA Juutilainen flew across the base at such a low altitude that he could look inside the bunkers. The aircraft were La-5 fighters.
The two pilots were returning to the base as they heard a report: Four enemy fighters over Perkjarvi at 4500 m - that meant next door to the Suulajarvi base, deep behind Finnish lines. Peltola landed due to engine problem... Juutilainen pulled the stick and let his MT-222 climb. He was not ordered to engage the enemy, actually he should have landed to delivered the reconnaisance data. But his battle spirit, egged by the buzzing of the enemy base, was too strong.
At 5500 m, about six minutes later, he saw four La-5 fighters 500 m below. He dived to approach them from behind.
He just had the enemy leader in his gunsight as the enemy formation dispersed and each La-5 began to climb and turn to get behind the Me. So they had seen him coming all the time! The enemy fighters had white rudders, meaning they belonged to the 10. Gv.IAP, and now Juutilainen heard from his headphones that the enemy leader was Squadron Leader Medvetjev, a double Soviet Hero. - As if that piece of information had helped the lone Finnish pilot!
Now Juutilainen decided to keep the enemy engaged until some Me's would arrive to deal with them. Quckly he considered his chances: His fuel was low, down to 20 mins at cruise speed, but he was above his own base. Whatever would happen, he would not be taken prisoner.
The MT-222 still had more speed than the enemy, and she was able to out-climb the La-5's. Only now, at 6500 m, Juutilainen put on his oxygen mask, but he could only bite the rib to hold it on his face. The result was that the humidity of his breathing escaped, condensed and began to frost the cockpit canopy matt white. Meanwhile Comrade Medvetjev called for reinforcements.
The Soviet pilots knew their job. One of them was always behind the Me, and if the Finnish pilot turned to attack, another La would be in a position to shoot. Juutilainen kept dodging, soaking wet of sweat despite the cold air.
As the dogfight had climbed to 8700 m, one more La-5 arrived to the scene, shooting at an hopelessy long range. Juutilainen saw her tracers, turned and dived under the new enemy, then pulled a tight climbing curve. He scraped frantically a peephole in the frost covering the cockpit canopy to see the enemy, now only his windshield was clear.
Juutilainen had a hard time in keeping all his five enemies in sight, but he saw snow swirling about 9 km below: some Me's were just taking off. It would take them ten minutes to climb to his altitude... Now he was told that the 6th La-5 was about to arrive in the scene. The battle had lasted almost 15 minutes now.
He dodged a La-5 attacking at a high speed from above, pushing under her nose, then he dodged another and had a third nearly in his gunsight !
At the same moment his engine coughed and stopped. He was out of fuel. Tracers flew past - one of the enemies was shooting at the "glider".
With is remaining speed Juutilainen dodged and pushed the Me in vertical dive. It was the only thing to do. He hoped that the enemy would not follow him if he exceeded the 950kmh limit - neither the Me nor the La were designed to withstand higher speed. He let the MT-222 fall vertically for 6500 m. The pilot's ears were buzzing like telephone wires, the speed was over 1000 kmh at 2000m altitude. The Me flew rock-steady.
He pulled the stick, which was nearly immobile and used the trim wheel. The Me returned to level flight at the altitude of 150 m, the speed was 900 kmh. No enemies were in sight. The pilot pulled the stick and converted his speed to altitude, then proceeded to make a "normal" landing without power.
The Me had not been damaged, neither in the battle nor in the dive. The enemy retreated before the other Finnish pilots had any chance to engage them.
Tie, Juutilainen disengaged after running out of fuel.
Camo
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Commander of II/JG26, August 17, 1943, the first Schweinfurt-Regensburg raid:
"On 17 August 1943, at 16:52, three Staffeln from II./JG 26 took off from Lille-Nord, under the command of Major Galland, to intercept a formation of USAAF four-engine bombers on their return course from a bombing raid on Schweinfurt. Over Lutych, the unit encountered a formation of 150 to 200 bombers, escorted by nearly 200 escort fighters. II./JG 26 bounced the bombers but were, in turn, attacked by a unit of P-47 fighters from the 56th Fighter Group, USAAF. Their fire crippled the FW 190 A-5 (W.Nr. 530 125) <<+- flown by “Wutz” Galland which crashed at high speed near Liegne, 5 km west of Maastricht. The impact left a large crater in the ground from which it was impossible to remove all the wreckage. Some sources suggest that “Wutz” Galland was shot down by the American ace Walker “Bud” Mahurin (24.25 confirmed, 4 probable and 2 damaged victories) of the 56th Fighter Group, USAAF.
“Wutz” Galland was credited with 54 aerial victories in 186 missions. All his victories were recorded over the Western Front and included seven four-engine bombers and 37 Spitfires.
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/gallandw.html (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/gallandw.html)
Sept. 17, 1944, Operation "Market Garden", Commander of III/JG26:
Klaus Mietusch was engaged in combat with USAAF P-51 fighters on 17 September 1944. After gaining his 75th, and final victory, he was shot down and killed in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 441 646) “Black 25” in the vicinity of Rath-Aldekerk by the American ace, Lieutenant William Beyer (9 victories) of the 376th Fighter Squadron of the 361st Fighter Group, USAAF. He was posthumously awarded the Eichenlaub (Nr 653) on 18 November.
In 452 combat missions Klaus Mietusch gained 75 victories. He gained 60 victories over the Western Front including 13 four-engine bombers. He was wounded several times and was shot down ten times.
"My other combat victories were not nearly as spectacular as this one, and it is with this in mind that I can recall it so vividly."
http://www.luftwaffe.cz/mietusch.html (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/mietusch.html)
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Great reading... excellent thread.
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Heh, Julius Meimberg (52) in his high alt optimized Bf109G14 vs. Egon Meyer's (102) FW190 (A6 probably). Mock dogfight (obviously). Result:tie. The pilots had to land, both totally exhausted by the event.
-C+
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I met Bud Mahurin in 1994, at Luke AFB where I was stationed. These were the gen Merril McPeak years where all sorts of USAF units were activated/deactivated so "we could keep the historical ones active". Anyways Luke had only been the 56th FW for a short time and my fighter sq was just being activated (it was deactivated in McDil AFB Florida), and our sq commander wanted to do something special for a 50 yr anniversary. We invited all the surviving pilots and crew chiefs out to Luke for a few days which culminated in a huge party in one of our hangars. We decorated it like you see pics of big parties in hangars in England in ww2. I was fortunate to have a seat at the head table sitting across form Bud Mahurin. The drinks flowed freely and the stories these guys had were absolutely awesome. Bud told of one where he was "trying show the boys in a 17" what a sweet plane the jug was, he misjudged his closure, got pulled into the turbs from the 17 and as he tried to fly out his rudder encountered the #2 propeller of the 17. He said he wasn't so much concerned about making it back, but how could he explain the damage to his plane as combat damage. Being a crew chief myself it was great to talk to the jug crew chiefs, swap stories and see just how far we had come in 50 years. I will try and dig up the pictures we took that day.
Has anyone read Bud mahurins book?
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Awesome thread, thanks!
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Stocky Edwards 18-25 victories kills Otto Schultz 50 victories
"Meanwhile, Otto Schultz attacked Wally Conrad wounding him and putting his engine out of commission. Wally crash landed and leapt out of his dead Hurricane when Schultz made his first strafing run, then soared back up to come around for another. At this time Edwards spotted Schultz coming up from his dive with his three squadron mates high above watching the fun. He was about half a mile away and angled his Kittyhawk slightly to intercept the Messerschmitt. Schultz came out of his second dive about 300 yds. in front of Edwards at a angle of 60 degrees. Eddie gave Schultz's 109 a long burst from his machine guns, hitting it solidly in the fuselage. The Messerschmitt thundered into the ground killing the German ace immediately. Edwards was gone as quickly as he had appeared on the scene, but not before Conrad got a look at the call letters of his Kittyhawk. Upon landing back at Gambut 2 Eddie didn't claim the kill of Schultz's Me-109 as he hadn't seen Conrad or his Hurricane and knew that two unsubstantiated claims from a new pilot would not be accepted. He claimed only "one probable Me-109 at low level", and so got the Squadron's revenge for the loss of many pilots. The loss of Otto Schultz was a severe blow to JG-27, he could not easily be replaced with another pilot so experienced."
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A rough way to start a war.
Robert S. Johnson, USAAF, (28 Victories). Ergon Mayers, LW, (102 Victories).
One of the 56th's worst setbacks occurred on June 26, 1943, when 48 P-47Cs left a forward operating base at RAF Manston late in the afternoon to provide escort for B-17 Flying Fortress bombers returning from a mission against Villacoublay airfield in the Paris suburbs. As the P-47s approached the rendezvous point near Forges-les-Eaux, they were jumped from above and behind by 16 Focke-Wulf FW 190s of II Gruppe, JG 26. The first pass scattered the Thunderbolts, and Johnson's aircraft, flying at the rear of the 61st Squadron's formation, was seriously damaged by a 20mm shell that exploded in his cockpit and ruptured his hydraulic system. Burned and blinded by hydraulic fluid, Johnson elected to bail out but could not open his shattered canopy.
After disengaging from the fight and re-orienting himself, Johnson dove for the Channel but was intercepted by a single Fw 190. Unable to fight back, he maneuvered while under a series of attacks, and although sustaining further heavy damage, managed to survive until the German ran out of ammunition, at which point it turned back. This latter opponent has never been identified, but Johnson could have been one of three victories claimed that day by the commander of III/JG 2, Oberst Ergon Mayer. After landing, Johnson tried to count the bullet holes in his airplane, but when he passed 200, including twenty-one 20-mm cannon shell impacts, without even moving around the plane, he stopped.
While Johnson made it back to crashland at Manston, damaging his fighter beyond economical repair, four other pilots of the 56th FG were killed in action. A fifth, able to extend only one of his plane's landing gear struts, had to bail out over the English Channel and was rescued north of Yarmouth. Five other Thunderbolts suffered battle damage. Johnson suffered shrapnel wounds and minor burns to his face, hands, and legs, and was awarded the Purple Heart. He resumed flying missions on July 1.
I read Johnson's Book Thunderbolt, good stuff. This is a Wikipedia excert on this incident that occured early in Johnson's tour. Johnson ended his tour with 28 confirmed aerial victories and returned home.
Ergon Mayers' final score stood at 102, when he was shot down by a P-47 Thunderbolt and killed near Montmedy in a Focke-Wolfe FW 190 A-6 (W.Nr. 470 468). He was posthumously decorated with the Swords to the Knight's Cross.
In An Ace of the Eighth by Norman "Bud" Fortier, the author states that Mayer was shot down by Walter Gresham of the 358th FS. This claim was made based on gun camera footage and recollections of Mayer's wingman, who was forced to bail out during the action.
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Robert S. Johnson, USAAF, (28 Victories). Ergon Mayers, LW, (102 Victories).
There is also a great movie put out by MysticPuma. If you google it, you can still find it on the net.
Great thread!
Obie
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was that the sortie where he attacked a whole squadron? 1v15 or something crazy :huh
He got 6 of those warhawks. The group that got jumped reported being outnumbered. I guess with marseille, they were! :aok
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Boleslaw (Mike) Gladych: 61st FS, 56th FG, 14 Kills vs. Georg Peter Eder: Stab. II/JG 1, 78 Kills.
"In the spring of 1943, during a heated battle near the town of Lille, France, Gladych downed one enemy fighter. But soon after, an FW 190 scored damaging hits on the "Spitfire". Although severely shot up, Gladych's aircraft somehow remained flying. The German pilot flew close to him, waved his wings and disengaged. Gladych noticed the clearly visible number "13" on the fuselage of the "gentelman's" FW 190!"
"Gladych's next run-in with the call-code "13" took place on 8 March 1944. On this day American bombers flew to Berlin. In combat with attacking FW 190s, Gladych claimed one. But soon he was left alone with dwindling supplies of both ammo and fuel in his P-47 HV-M "Pengie II", facing another two enemy aircraft. The two Germans, one of them with call-code "13", held their fire and told Gladych to land on the nearby Vechta airfield. The Polish pilot went down, dropped his landing gear and prepared to land. When he was over airfield he suddenly opened fire with his remaining ammunition. Responding intensly, the flak gunners accidently hit the escorting Focke-Wulfs. Gladych gave full throttle and escaped. When he crossed the coast of the English Channel his P-47 ran out of fuel, giving him no choice but to bail out. For that mission he was awarded the Silver Star."
"In 1950 Gladych was in Frankfurt, Germany. He accidentally encountered a meeting of the "Gemeinschaft der Ehemailigen Jagdflieger der Luftwaffe". Asked by his wartime adversaries of his war memories, he told the story about the mysterious fighter with the code "13". As he ended his story, he noticed one of the attending German pilots was really touched. It was the pilot of this "13" in all three cases. His name is Georg Peter Eder, an ace with 78 victories who was himself shot down 17 times!"
Just a note about this story, I cannot confirm that Gladych and Eder actually met in combat. But it's an interesting story if they did.
Obie
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Boleslaw (Mike) Gladych: 61st FS, 56th FG, 14 Kills vs. Georg Peter Eder: Stab. II/JG 1, 78 Kills.
Robert Johnson talks about him, he was a single-minded mad-man who charged recklessly head first into battle. Sounds like a heck of a guy.