Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: 715 on April 15, 2008, 12:57:01 AM
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Tanks sinking an entire task force, with the 5"ers on the TF doing no damage at all to the tanks.
So did that happen every day in WWII or only once a week?
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did you select HE rounds on the 5"ers?
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An F6f with a few eggs solves that problem.
Not having the cv that close to shore in the first place is an even better idea.
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Carriers sitting less than 3k from the shore that happened in WW2 everyday im sure :uhoh
Get out of your gun. Kill the VH so he cant spawn, kill the ords so he cant bomb your ship, steer it away from the Shore battery/ or bomb that too.
Don't blame the guy in his tank :salute him for killing a whole carrier force single handedly thats impressive :D
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I was once punching a CV with my Firefly, but somebody manned a gun and toasted me....
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Wait a second, you saying that a tank armor piercing round shouldn't penetrate a thin skinned Carrier?
Or destroyers? Cruiser is the ONLY ship that should possibly not take major damage from tanks.
A Carrier should not be so close to shore that a Tank can reach it. (Besides it makes it too easy for SB and pt's to jump in)
Bringing it that close would have been a courts martial offense in WWII.
Sounds to me like a FUBAR'd carrier attack, that was poorly planned and executed. In which case then the enemy
should save their field and reset the task group. You want to capture a field with a carrier assault, kill the VH early and keep it down.
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Thin skinned CV? And did you count in range? Ever looked around a warship?
Just wondering....lots of metal, lots of range.
A tank round is just a hobbit round compared to the navy stuff....
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Who was the CV commander stupid enough to bring the CV in that close?
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On that subject....were cruisers that much softer than CVs in WWII ? Why escorts take as much damage as the cruiser ? Did HE shells from tanks disable 8inch guns that easily ?
I know its just a game but....
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Who was the CV commander stupid enough to bring the CV in that close?
From what I've seen, that describes about 80% of them. :D When's the last time you saw someone up a TBM or heavy F6F to kill the SB(s) first? Most guys just drag the keel on the bottom and try to park the CV in the town. Then they panic and turn back out to sea when the SB starts tearing them a new one. :cry
It ain't rocket science, "You HO the SB, you lose"
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Having been aboard the U.S.S. Lexington for several days thanks to JROTC. It would be close to impossible for small arms fire to penetrate a Carrier. But we're not talking small arms fire here, we're talking HE and AP rounds from tank guns. The sides of a Carrier are too big to actually be armored, its just a steel skin. If you were to actually but enough armor to soak up that kind of fire the whole thing would probably sink itself from the weight.
Which is why only the important sections of the ship are heavily armored, otherwise you've got too much weight. And besides as already stated, an Essex class IS NOT DESIGNED TO BE WITHIN 5 KILOMETERS OF THE SHORE. Personally, as much as I loved the target practice, courtmarshalling this armchair Admiral would be a very good thing.
And when you refer to a TF getting sunk by tanks, are you referring to this one yesterday?
http://www.mediafire.com/?gfhz92991tt
We were receiving flak fire, but it was making puffies and otherwise inaccurate fire from the CV. Bad gunners, but the CV's course was changing so rapidly I doubt they had a geniunely stable platform to fire from. So... meh.
17lber HE shells FTW!
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Thin skinned CV? And did you count in range? Ever looked around a warship?
Just wondering....lots of metal, lots of range.
A tank round is just a hobbit round compared to the navy stuff....
the 3 inch gun the M10 used was a 3 inch naval canon. (I think)
Tank guns are not allot weaker then a naval 5 or 3 inch gun, and a tank could do a number on most small ships like frigates and destroyers. Even a CV would be damaged fairly badly. I wouldn't think a Battleship or a heavy Cruiser has much to worry about though.
5 inch gun was what 127 MM? The Tiger 2 tank destroyer had a 128MM gun and I bet it perfomed pretty close to a 5 inch gun if not better.
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Submarine deck guns. Nuff said.
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5 inch gun was what 127 MM? The Tiger 2 tank destroyer had a 128MM gun and I bet it perfomed pretty close to a 5 inch gun if not better.
US Naval guns of the WWII time period are generally viewed as being the best of their ilk. The 16"/50 was without peer, deemed superior to the Japanese 18.1" gun fitted to Yamato and Musashi. Likewise, the 12"/50 fitted to the Alaska class Large Cruisers is considered the finest of her type/class ever fitted to a warship. It should be no surprise that smaller caliber American naval guns were equally outstanding.
The US dual-purpose 5"/38 was the finest gun of its type for many years. Where it really excelled was in rate of fire. A good gun crew could get off between 18 and 21 aimed rounds per minute. A dual mount could manage in the range of 30 to 40 round per minute. I doubt very much that the 128mm in a Jagdtiger was able to get more than two rounds off per minute.
This high rate of fire was sustainable too. During the engagement off of Samar, the US Destroyer Escort Samuel B. Roberts fired off 608 5" rounds from her two 5" guns within 35 minutes (and is believed to have scored over 300 hits on various Japanese battleships and heavy cruisers). That's better than 17 rounds per minute.
This was a powerful gun, shooting a round weighing 54 lbs at 2,600 fps. The standard SCS round could penetrate 5" of face-hardened steel armor at 4,000 yards. 5" rounds striking German Panzers during the Sicily invasion (Destroyers had closed to with 1,000 yards of the beaches to provide direct fire support) literally blew the tanks to pieces.
The problem with the game is that we do not have a variety of ammo types for the 5" guns. We are stuck with the common AA round for all purposes.
My regards,
Widewing
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the 3 inch gun the M10 used was a 3 inch naval canon. (I think)
It was an anti-aircraft gun, modified.
My regards,
Widewing
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did you select HE rounds on the 5"ers?
And I suspect this was a big part of the problem. The poster could have lobbed AA shells from now to Doomsday (or for the materialists among us, till the universe reaches absolute zero) without killing a tank.
Just so you know next time, you can change the shell type by hitting backspace. When you switch to HE you might have SOME chance of killing a tank, although you need to remember that HE isn't designed to penetrate armor.
(hmmm....would be cool to see blast effect modelled, so you might be able to flip those armored suckers over like the carpet bombing did for Operation Cobra!)
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I totally agree with all of you that say the TF should not have been that close to the field and that carrier planes should have taken out the VH and the ordnance (the SBs were already down). In fact I'll go further and say it is pointless to try to take a field without taking everything down. However, I didn't have control over either of those things as I didn't control the TF and I can't hit anything with dive bombers.
My questions were why tanks rounds would sink the carrier (and battleship as well I believe) and why my 5" gun had no effect on the tanks. I did try both HE and AA but stuck with AA mostly because it gave a better visual of actually hitting. I see now where that could be the problem, the proximity exploding AA shell might not do much to a tank unless it's a direct hit, since it's just throwing out shrapnel. Maybe none of my HE shots were direct hits either (the range was >3K). I can see the Tiger shells penetrating and doing some damage, perhaps, but sinking the whole thing? In addition, I have actually sunk carriers and battleships with the 40 mm cannon on the back of a PT boat. That doesn't seem right either.
Sorry about my post- I was just a bit annoyed as I always am when gunning TFs. They seem to go down to Davy Jones locker in AH at a rate that would bankrupt the world's richest country in less than a week. I agree that this is mostly because people don't use them properly. They seem to want to use the enemy PT spawns as TF waypoints and then steam it directly into SBs without taking them, or ordnance, down. An then there's level bombers which are untouchable from TF ack and sink them with near 100% certainty. Well.. at least the AH shipyards work fast ;)
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keep practicing the Dive Bombong, infact look up a post by LYNX about using the Hellcat F6F-5. I've applied wht he explained in it to just about every Jabo and can't miss if I come in 3k above target level.
went ahead and found the post by LYNX but his pics have been taken down.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,218264.0.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,218264.0.html)
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US Naval guns of the WWII time period are generally viewed as being the best of their ilk. The 16"/50 was without peer, deemed superior to the Japanese 18.1" gun fitted to Yamato and Musashi. Likewise, the 12"/50 fitted to the Alaska class Large Cruisers is considered the finest of her type/class ever fitted to a warship. It should be no surprise that smaller caliber American naval guns were equally outstanding.
The US dual-purpose 5"/38 was the finest gun of its type for many years. Where it really excelled was in rate of fire. A good gun crew could get off between 18 and 21 aimed rounds per minute. A dual mount could manage in the range of 30 to 40 round per minute. I doubt very much that the 128mm in a Jagdtiger was able to get more than two rounds off per minute.
This high rate of fire was sustainable too. During the engagement off of Samar, the US Destroyer Escort Samuel B. Roberts fired off 608 5" rounds from her two 5" guns within 35 minutes (and is believed to have scored over 300 hits on various Japanese battleships and heavy cruisers). That's better than 17 rounds per minute.
This was a powerful gun, shooting a round weighing 54 lbs at 2,600 fps. The standard SCS round could penetrate 5" of face-hardened steel armor at 4,000 yards. 5" rounds striking German Panzers during the Sicily invasion (Destroyers had closed to with 1,000 yards of the beaches to provide direct fire support) literally blew the tanks to pieces.
The problem with the game is that we do not have a variety of ammo types for the 5" guns. We are stuck with the common AA round for all purposes.
My regards,
Widewing
Awesome stuff WW, thanks for the info.
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Awesome stuff WW, thanks for the info.
I second that Widewing, your info is always without peer. :salute
BTW enjoyed the Hell out of your "Final Stand" in the Tiger on the reloading pad last night (either A1 or A19, I forget). Weren't you finally killed by a B-25H sitting on the ground? That was a weird scene.
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My questions were why tanks rounds would sink the carrier (and battleship as well I believe) and why my 5" gun had no effect on the tanks. I did try both HE and AA but stuck with AA mostly because it gave a better visual of actually hitting. I see now where that could be the problem, the proximity exploding AA shell might not do much to a tank unless it's a direct hit, since it's just throwing out shrapnel. Maybe none of my HE shots were direct hits either (the range was >3K). I can see the Tiger shells penetrating and doing some damage, perhaps, but sinking the whole thing? In addition, I have actually sunk carriers and battleships with the 40 mm cannon on the back of a PT boat. That doesn't seem right either.
You don't have to actually sink the ship in R/L. You just have to kill off enough to the crew and light enough fires to force them to abandon it. Remember the deck on top of the Essex is wood, chuck enough high explosive/incendiary at it and you'll have a lovely bonfire.
Send HE shells through the tower and eliminate the command staff and the ship is being run by less-experienced Officers. With no major command/control happening the crew can only react and realisticly get the ship out of danger. That means the engine room is chucking full rudder to come about and setting the boilers and engines into overdrive. I'm pretty sure, but not certain, that an Essex going all out could hit 20-30 knots.
In the game however, we don't have crews, we just have vital portions of the ship that can get hit and when enough of them get hit with enough force it goes kaplunk.
I'm also fairly certain the side armor on an Essex is thinner than that of a Tiger, and the 17 pounder on the VC can knock right through that. Using HE, you only have to hit a spot once to rip apart the steel and then you've got a lovely route into the interior where you can hit everything from fuel tanks, coal bunkers, ammo bunkers. You could knock a round into the Galley and send flour all over the room only for it to be ignited by a secondary fire and erupt in one nasty explosion.
Despite their size, Essex Class Carriers are not that strong, especially against direct fire weapons. The hits they took from Japanese bombers were mostly on the upper decks, the flight deck or the hangar deck which are the thickest decks the Essex has. The aircraft elevators themselves weigh in at nearly 100 tons. (It's a bit disturbing when you hear that the forward elevator weighs 100 tons and you look up and realized that they turned the space underneath that mass of metal designed to move into an.. Imax theatre.)
Once you get underneath that, though, there's alot of vital systems in very vulnerable areas.
The torpedo hit the U.S.S. Lexington took crippled her and she was only saved by three very brave crewmen who gave their lives to get the rudder working somewhat so they could limp back to Pearl for repairs. That was also just one torpedo, too. So I think 5-10 tanks chucking large caliber anti-tank/High explosive rounds into the side for a good 4-8 minutes would do some nasty damage.
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Tanks sinking an entire task force, with the 5"ers on the TF doing no damage at all to the tanks.
So did that happen every day in WWII or only once a week?
Sank a Bish fleet the other day with a LVT4.
ack-ack
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Hehehehehe. Something started pinging on my remote memory sections and Lo, I remembered something.
Please meet: Panzers vs. Royal Navy
On May 22, 1940, the 2nd Panzer Division was ordered to advance and seal off the port of Boulogne, France on the English Channel. Other Panzer divisions were sent to the ports of Calais and Dunkirk. The invasion of France was not to end for almost another month.
On the 23rd of May, Panzer Regiment 3 of the 2nd Panzer Division was in Boulogne. It was the end of a successful day. All the coastal fortifications had been taken. The Panzer crews were preparing supper and relaxing. English destroyers were patrolling up and down the English Channel. Unseen by the Panzer crews one of the destroyers was on a course straight for the Boulogne harbor. The commander of the fourth company, Oberleutant von Jaworski saw this in his binoculars and called out: "Alarm! The destroyer wants to land troops! Two heavy tanks prepare for combat." (These are the Mark IV tanks equipped with the short 75 mm cannon.) The drivers started their engines and the tanks were made combat ready. The company commander jumped onto one of the tanks and they took off.
Both tanks race onto the street. Their treads spray sparks on the stone pavement. When the street becomes covered with rubble the tanks turn and ignoring trees and fences go cross country. The tanks advance until they can see the harbor docks about 70 meters away. The company commander sounds out "One o'clock, range 500 meters, destroyer!" and immediately comes the reply of the gunner: "Target recognized" -- the first shell leaves the barrel -- 50 meters too long. Using his binoculars the tank commander sees troops standing on the deck preparing to land. The gunner corrects the range, the second shell leaves the barrel -- a direct hit on the foreship in front of the bridge. A split second later another hit five meters higher. Parts of the ship begin to whirl through the air. The remains of the foredeck are obscured by smoke.
The range adjusting is finished. The loader works quickly and shell after shell leaves the barrel. The force of the incoming shells drives all which are not swept from the deck to seek cover. The destroyer increases its speed to escape the observation of the tanks. This change of position interrupts the fire of the tanks only momentarily. Only now does the ship's crew try to defend themselves -- from the aft, broadside after broadside is fired. The smoke grows and occasionally conceals the whole ship. From the opposite height of the harbor enemy anti-aircraft guns begin to fire. About 10 muzzle flashes are recognizable. The location of the tanks is announced presumably by radio to the other destroyers and they cover the tanks with a hail of high-explosive and shrapnel shells. All the hatches are closed. The company commander jumps off the tank and seeks cover -- the earth trembles and shakes. Howling and clattering the shell splinters smash against the armor plating, but the crew is not stunned. Smoke from the tank's shells begins to cloud the gunner's and commander's sights. Every time a shell is ejected the loader is hit in the face by a glowing flame. The air becomes thick and caustic. The driver and radio operator assist the loader so that there is no interruption in the rapid fire.
The continued fire fight forces the destroyer to locate to the outer harbor. Some hours later the destroyer sinks.
After the sinking, one of the crews drew a destroyer on the tank commander's cupola.
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(hmmm....would be cool to see blast effect modelled, so you might be able to flip those armored suckers over like the carpet bombing did for Operation Cobra!)
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I have seen a sherman parked by some fuel tanks get flipped. A guy was shooting at the sherman but kept hitting the fuel tanks. Once the fuel tanks blew the sherman started to flip. It was pretty cool. However I am not sure if it was b/c of the fuel tanks blowing, or if the sherman tried to drive and flipped.
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I know I tried to kill a fleet off of A51 LW Orange last night with a Tiger, but they were just out of range. The field had no SB at all. Ship auto ack had airfield covered. Not a fun situation. We finally sank the CV, I left to find less hazardous sky to fly in after that.
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You blame a guy for sinking your CV? Kill him...
1.) Turn CV away from him
2.) Up 3 F6F's and kill the VHs
3.) Kill the GV.
easy as that...